User talk:Cdjp1

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March 2024

Hello, I'm Robert McClenon. I noticed that you recently removed content from Tang Chia-kun without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. The use of draft space is usually not required. Copying a page from draft space to article space is discouraged but permitted, and so blanking it is not permitted. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your submission at Articles for creation: Tang Chia-kun (March 20)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Robert McClenon was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Tang Chia-kun and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
• If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Robert McClenon (talk) 06:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon Hi Robert, the article was initially created and then moved to draft due to no citations and being a general stub, the original creator then ignored the draft and recreated the page in main space. The page requires a full review from draft and not just accepting the editor having bypassed the draft process. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:03, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Cdjp1 - I largely agree with you, that the biography of a living person does not appear to be ready for article space. However, Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and the originator has chosen to bypass the draft process, and the guideline is clear that an originator may bypass the draft review process, see objecting to draftification. When an originator has chosen to bypass draft review, the article is in article space. Your choices and mine include nominating the article for deletion, tagging the article, reducing the article to a stub, or expanding the article. I don't plan to nominate the article for deletion, and do not recommend that it be nominated for deletion, because it is my opinion that the subject is notable. There isn't a procedure for enforcing a review from draft over the objection of the originator (and moving the article from draft to article is a means of objecting), except in the case of authors with conflict of interest, which this does not appear to be. If you have any further questions about how other editors can deal with an article that is moved into article space without review, we can discuss at the Village Pump or the Articles for Creation talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Cdjp1! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! Robert McClenon (talk) 06:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation link notification for March 22

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Soviet POWs death toll

I see that you're a frequent editor of the list of genocides page, and regularly edit and also format sources. There's a discussion between me and another user on the page "German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war", where the work of Peter Calvocoressi and Guy Wint estimating 3.5 million Soviet POWs dead has been labeled as being WP:FRINGE and non-academic, yet it is cited as the upper limit on "List of genocides". Also, the work of Russian historians Boris Sokolov and Viktor Zemskov has been labeled WP:FRINGE, so I would appreciate input on the matter. Reaper1945 (talk) 03:26, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Reaper1945 I may not get to this till tomorrow evening, but I can look refresh my knowledge on current literature, and act accordingly. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Nakba citation template edits

Hi, I don't understand what is the benefit of changing {harvnb |blah |blah} to {harvnb|blah|blah}, can you explain? Levivich (talk) 23:20, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted your edit (again). Sorry, but changing (to take one example) {sfnm |Masalha |2012 |1pp=13 and 128 |2a1=Abu-Lughod |2a2=Sa'di |2y=2007 |2p=19} to {sfnm|Masalha|2012|1pp=13 and 128|2a1=Abu-Lughod|2a2=Sa'di|2y=2007|2p=19} makes the citation worse, not better. I'm not sure if this was just a mistake or an intentional change? Levivich (talk) 03:28, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your GA nomination of Cagot

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Cagot you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Chiswick Chap -- Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:23, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, please note that the procedure is that you respond to my GAN comments, and I then review your responses and strike my comments when I am satisfied they've been attended to properly. Please don't strike anything, that causes chaos. Many thanks, Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:15, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies, rather new to the whole process. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, we're well under way now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your GA nomination of Cagot

The article Cagot you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Cagot for comments about the article, and Talk:Cagot/GA1 for the nomination. Well done! If the article is eligible to appear in the "Did you know" section of the Main Page, you can nominate it within the next seven days. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Chiswick Chap -- Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:23, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CS1 error on 21st-century communist theorists

Hello, I'm Qwerfjkl (bot). I have automatically detected that this edit performed by you, on the page 21st-century communist theorists, may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows:

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Baloch Genocide

I am new to wiki and I need some help in the article If you could for the baloch genocide

GamerHashaam (talk) 19:44, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

June 2024

Can you please self-revert this edit as it violates the 1RR restrictions. Thanks. M.Bitton (talk) 17:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since you are clearly ignoring this request, you leave me with no choice but to report it to the admins. M.Bitton (talk) 17:36, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From my reading of the 3/1 RR rule, it counts against the individual editor, and so would not apply to my recent edit. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:42, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's your second revert within 4 hours (that's a violation of 1RR). I take it you have no intention of self-reverting. M.Bitton (talk) 17:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, that is my first edit on the article today. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:45, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's your first revert. M.Bitton (talk) 17:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, if your issue is with Allegations article, then 1RR still does not apply, as the reversions are completely different sections and information. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:47, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, I'm confused, is your issue with the Palestine genocide accusation article, or the Allegations in 2023 article? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I linked to the diff, so there should be no confusion. M.Bitton (talk) 17:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You linked to two completely different articles in your first two messages. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:49, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I linked to the diff that you need to self-revert. The other article was to prove that you have read and ignored my request. M.Bitton (talk) 17:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well it doesn't prove that, it shows I was editing after you had posted your first message. I didn't open my notifications until after your second message. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's no longer an issue since you made it clear that you have no intention of self-reverting. M.Bitton (talk) 18:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was trying to figure out what your claim actually was, sorry for that. Since I now understand the article and issue at hand, I will undo my recent change to keep the peace. But the opening still needs amending as currently it doesn't read right for it's purpose as a lede, as detailed in my edit commentary. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:03, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, this comment was in regards to the Palestine genocide accusation article, as that was the article I mistakenly thought was under discussion, and so my supposed revert there was the first I had done on that page. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, if your issue is with Allegations article, then 1RR still does not apply is what you said. M.Bitton (talk) 18:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Request for “peer review”

Hey, as there have been some complaints about the sources, I’m currently in the process of creating a table for the sources I dug up in the move discussion. Acknowledging that it’s probably a pain, would you mind giving it a quick look (on facts only, you’re under no obligations to endorse) once I’m done? As it’s a foreign language to most, I don’t want them to only be able to rely on my word and translation, and your user page lists German as a language. FortunateSons (talk) 21:51, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I'll try and run some tomorrow. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great, depending on when tomorrow is for you, I might be done or mostly done by then :) FortunateSons (talk) 22:33, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	For Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza, where you worked deeply and thoughtfully with academic and non-academic sources in multiple languages, including verifying 21 mostly german scholars on my talk page. I'm certain that your commitment to improving the article is valued by many, and has impressed me deeply. FortunateSons (talk) 13:23, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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CS1 error on Khmelnytsky Uprising

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Regarding your edit to Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza

Did you intentionally effectively undo one of my citation format changes here at line 250? If so, I formatted it that way for a reason, because it's a pleading in a court case. If you're trying to maintain consistency, consider {{cite court}}, which also deviates a bit from the usual citation templates' format to use legal citation style, in accordance with at least the Chicago Manual of Style (that's the one I'm actually experienced with and can directly attest to, I hesitate to generalize about other style guides). (This is also just a bit too unusual of a citation [ICJ, ongoing, and still too early for even the orders to have been published in the ICJ reporter] to use that template; believe me, that was the first thing I reached for.) Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 16:27, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did go ahead and reverse your re-addition of the New York Times "Read the ICJ ruling" source from the same edit. There's nothing on that page except an embed of the same PDF that's in the direct citation to the ICJ website that you kept. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 16:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies, I'm less familiar with citing legal proceedings, I've adapted it to the cite court template. If I've got anything wrong in the template, please correct it. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 16:43, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's still not quite right but I need to leave for church and it's not unusably broken or anything, just not in the proper format. I'll fix it when I get back, but I'd also like to explain to you why I think trying to force it into {{cite court}} is more confusing than helpful, if you'd be willing to indulge me. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 17:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh my god, well for one thing, I was just looking back over what I said and I realized how consider {{cite court}} sounds 😭 What I was actually trying to say was that {{cite court}} demonstrates that it's normal to deviate from the usual citation format into a specifically legal citation format when you're citing court cases, based on how it's different from the typical CS1 style. It was probably so confusing when I said that, you tried your best to make it work, and then I said "actually {{cite court}} sucks" LOL. I'm so sorry. This is ultimately good though, because that {{cite court}} usage has gotten me to realize that even if it is normal to deviate to a legal citation format, in those citations I wrote I was sticking a bit too strictly to specifically Bluebook format, with stuff like the dates for instance. (So I can still use this to improve the consistency of my citations.) I can still give that explanation if you'd like but the point of it was mostly going to be to justify not using {{cite court}} since I wasn't sure why you did, but now that I realize I just phrased stuff weirdly and you misunderstood me I'm not so sure that it's necessary. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 18:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit summary

I also noticed that your edit summary for the edit we discussed didn't appear to adequately describe the change you made. Specifically, your edit summary didn't reflect your deletion of He further added, "We have been accustomed to genocidal rhetoric that comes from Hamas ...", which is a pretty significant change not to mention. I'm investigating and trying to figure out what I want to do about the edits introducing and reintroducing that passage and it would've been much easier to navigate if I didn't have to figure out that the deletion was tucked away in an edit summarized as formatted some of the references. Just try to keep that in mind in the future, thanks :) Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 00:41, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Settler colonialism

I see you reverted to an inaccurate description of ‘settler colonialism’. Not sure why. ‘Settler colonialism’ is an academic theory. By definition, ‘settler colonialism’ is not something that occurs; rather, it is a theory used by _some_ scholars to _describe_ something that occurs. It is not a thing or a fact; it’s a sociological theory.

I don’t have time for Wikipedia edit battles so I won’t be commenting further, but it’s odd to see Wikipedia editors fail to grasp such elementary distinctions. Kotzker (talk) 16:45, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure this is the case. Does our article on andesite say "Andesite is a human-made classification for certain types of rocks depending on its formation and silica content"? or "Genocide is a sociological theory invented by Raphael Lemkin and a legally defined crime according to the Genocide Convention"? (t · c) buidhe 15:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In case

... my edit summary at Holodomor was ambiguous: I don't want to discourage you from improving the reference formatting, but please fix your script so that it doesn't introduce hundreds of meaningless whitespace changes, as that makes reviewing the change history effectively impossible. That would be much appreciated. Thank you! Gawaon (talk) 18:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation link notification for July 5

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Genocide Sidebare

Hello, I came across the back and forth on two different version of the side bar. There is the original longstanding version and the proposed one you reinstated here. Though looking at the talk page, it doesn’t seem consensus was reached on changing to the new version you reverted to. Despite both sides of the aisle saying “see talk page” in their edit diffs. Seems like an edit war going on.

Is there going to be a RFC to decide between the two versions? And until then shouldn’t the original version remain until the results are in?

It is causing confusion as with the current version, the sidebar is being removed from all originally listed Genocide example articles listed prior since all those events are removed in the new proposed version. Cheers. OyMosby (talk) 15:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From my reading of the discussion, there is greater support for not listing any genocides in the sidebar, based largely on the argument that it crosses over into OR. The "{{Genocide topics}}" template currently uses different logic, and has a more expansive list than the sidebar had, so that may help. In discussing with other editors over the inclusion of the sidebar, there are the articles Genocides in history and List of genocides, as well as the [[Category:Genocides]] (and it's subcategories), where if there is any argument that an event is genocidal in nature, it should be added to the category. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 16:33, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removing space before slash in <ref> tags

Just curious because I noticed part of the "formatting" you did in your latest edit to Gaza genocide was removing spaces before the slash in self-closing <ref> tags of existing citations: is that considered bad? The only straight(ish) answer I could get from googling around is that the only reason it's ever been necessary is for compatibility in XHTML documents, per this Stack Overflow question (well, one answer claims that [t]he proper way to do it is without the extra space as this is something XHTML inherited from XML, but I don't really follow the logic of how that would make either way more or less "proper"). Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 20:42, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not really any reason. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 20:57, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Centro Universitario de la Guardia Civil

I created a draft here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:El_Centro_Universitario_de_la_Guardia_Civil_(Spain) Your comment welcome Timpo (talk) 16:21, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikiproject

Hi, I see you're a member of WP:Mythology, would you be interested in a sub project on WP:Anthropology on oral tradition? Kowal2701 (talk) 14:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Formatting references

I noticed you are formatting some references. Do you do all this work manually, or is there some tooling out there to help with this? DMH223344 (talk) 17:58, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@DMH223344: there's probably some tools I could find, or I could build some script to automate a bunch of it, but no, it's all manual. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 20:12, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Can you share some guidlines on formatting? Another question I had was: I noticed you added `page needed` when citations included a chapter reference. Isnt it enough to just point a reader to a specific chapter? DMH223344 (talk) 15:38, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

epubs for example often do not have page numbers DMH223344 (talk) 15:38, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do think it should be sufficient to provide a quote. Even my pdf copy of "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" somehow does not have page numbers (pdf page numbers would not correspond to the print copy page numbers). DMH223344 (talk) 15:58, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Epubs are a bane in my work. If we don't have the page numbers easily at hand, the chapter and quote should suffice. I added the "page needed" template for every citation where they had the "pages" parameter present, but did not list a page. I have most of the books which have the "page needed" template beside them in that article, so I should be able to pull them, but I can't promise this will be any time soon.

As to "guidance", I just fill out as many of the parameters in the relevant template as possible, if I'm working from the source. If I am converting an unformatted reference to a relevant template, it's picking the most appropriate template and just adding the parameters that are already present. If I'm not being too lazy, I may check the original source to fill out additional parameters. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:32, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation link notification for August 1

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Undefined harvnb reference

Hi, in this edit to Canadian genocide of Indigenous peoples you added harvnb references to "Thielen-Wilson 2014", but did nto add teh source you were referring to. This means that nobody can look the references up, and the article is added to Category:Harv and Sfn no-target errors. Please supply the missing source to correct your error. Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 00:03, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		This is for your contributions to Israel–Hamas war. Pachu Kannan (talk) 15:58, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CS1 error on Taíno genocide

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CS1 error on Genocide of Indigenous peoples in Brazil

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Proposed deletion of Werner Schüßler

The article Werner Schüßler has been proposed for deletion because it appears to have no references. Under Wikipedia policy, this biography of a living person will be deleted after seven days unless it has at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article.

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Estimates of casualties in Gaza war

Hello, I've found a French language source that states that according to Netanyahu "14.000 combattants ont été tués et probablement environ 16.000 civils". So the remnants of the government of Hamas in Gaza and the Israeli government had at that time about the same estimate for the aggregate number of fatalities in the Gaza war (30.000 vs. 35.000). (https://www.bfmtv.com/international/moyen-orient/palestine/guerre-a-gaza-netanyahu-evoque-un-bilan-de-30-000-morts-dont-la-moitie-de-combattants-du-hamas_AD-202405140173.html) I think that one could reference that article from BFM TV in English Wikipedia. --Wikifizierung (talk) 09:34, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Assistance with new article: Their Morals and Ours: The class foundations of moral practice

Hello @Cdjp1

A new article has been created on "Their Morals and Ours: The class foundations of moral practice" by Leon Trotsky. However, the same citations have been used more than one and would welcome some assistance in fixing this formatting issue.

The page can be accessed via here: Their Morals and Ours: The class foundations of moral practice

WikiUser4020 (talk) 21:17, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You could have just formatted them right from the beginning. I will roll through and correct them, at some point. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cdjp1, the issue seems to have been resolved but do have a second look in case there any errors. WikiUser4020 (talk) 12:04, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CS1 error on Black War

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CS1 error on Tamil genocide

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Voting for coordinators is now open!

Nominations for the upcoming project coordinator election have opened. A team of up to ten coordinators will be elected for the next coordination year. The project coordinators are the designated points of contact for issues concerning the project, and are responsible for maintaining our internal structure and processes. They do not, however, have any authority over article content or editor conduct, or any other special powers. More information on being a coordinator is available here. If you are interested in running, please sign up here by 23:59 UTC on 14 September! Voting will commence on 15 September. If you have any questions, you can contact any member of the current coord team. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 06:40, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Ranks and Insignia of Non NATO Air Forces/WO/Pakistan

Hey, Template:Ranks and Insignia of Non NATO Air Forces/WO/Pakistan and 10+ more similar templates (found at User:Jonesey95/self-transcluded-templates) have lately become unused. Are they not needed anymore? Gonnym (talk) 08:14, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

restoring re: Gaza genocide

Friendly note, if you restore something I removed, please make sure it has a WP:RS-approved secondary source (see WP:PRIMARY) As regards this diff[1]Andre🚐 21:28, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unaware of WP:BRD ?

Please read WP:BRD.---Wikaviani ^(talk) (contribs) 12:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Wikaviani please see list criteria. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 12:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Though you also seem to misunderstand the order of BRD, so maybe step away from it before waving it around wantonly. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 12:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could you clarify how I misunderstand the order of WP:BRD ? B means that you can make a bold edit, R means that said edit is reverted and D means that if the edit is reverted then instead of reverting back, the editor should discuss their edit. You edited the article by removing a bunch of sourced content, I reverted your edit and at that point, you should've gone to the talk in order to explain your edit instead of reverting back.---Wikaviani ^(talk) (contribs) 12:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion should occur before when you claim, I would have hoped you'd have learnt that by now. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 12:46, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To aid your understanding, B was the addition, R was my action, D should have then occurred. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 12:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it works like that, since so far, you have reverted two different editors, which is all but a convenient behaviour.---Wikaviani ^(talk) (contribs) 12:52, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Except that is the process, your misreading of it does not matter. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 12:56, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then we have a disagreement about the process, what you say is tantamount saying that when an editor reverts a bold edit, then this editor has the right to revert repeatedly that edit no matter if another editor makes the same edit. Anyway, not a big deal.---Wikaviani ^(talk) (contribs) 13:00, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it is not a big deal why bring it up? I understand why you have been sanctioned previously for editwarring if you have this fundamental a misunderstanding of the process. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was sanctioned for edit-warring, true, but that does not mean that everything I say or do is wrong. Wish you a great rest of your day. Goodbye.---Wikaviani ^(talk) (contribs) 13:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's your wrong actions that show what you do is wrong. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:22, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If everytime one edit of yours is reverted, you get angry and aggressive like that, then maybe you should question your own behaviour.---Wikaviani ^(talk) (contribs) 13:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You may be projecting, as you're the one who decided to badger this as a discussion here. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to this thread, you were right about WP:BRD, thus I owe you an apology. Best.---Wikaviani ^(talk) (contribs) 07:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Regroup on genocide article consistency

Hey! It sound like you have a clearer idea of what still needs to be done with regard making genocide lists consistent. Unfortunately Genocide list article has mostly been sidetracked these past few months so not sure where the best place to coordinate all this is—blindlynx 17:30, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have no suggestion where best to coordinate.

There are 4 lists that should be looked at:

1. List of genocides
2. Genocides in history: before WWI; WWI through WWII; 1946 to 1999; 21st century
3. Genocide of indigenous peoples
4. Template:Genocide navbox

Targeted sources for expanding the lists are:

1. Chalk, Frank Robert; Jonassohn, Kurt (1990). The History and Sociology of Genocide: Analyses and Case Studies. Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-04446-1.
2. Gellately, Robert; Kiernan, Ben (2003). The Specter of Genocide: Mass Murder in Historical Perspective. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-52750-7.
3. Levene, Mark (2005). Genocide in the Age of the Nation State. Vol. 1: The Meaning of Genocide. I. B. Tauris. ISBN 978-1-85043-752-9.
4. Levene, Mark (2005). Genocide in the Age of the Nation State. Vol. 2: The Rise of the West and Coming Genocide. I. B. Tauris. ISBN 978-1-84511-057-4.
5. Kiernan, Ben (2007). Blood and soil: A world history of genocide and extermination from Sparta to Darfur. Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0300144253.
6. Stone, Dan, ed. (13 February 2008). The Historiography of Genocide. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 978-1-4039-9219-2.
7. Totten, Samuel; Bartrop, Paul R.; Jacobs, Steven L. (2008). Dictionary of genocide. Vol. 1. Greenwood Publishing Group. ISBN 978-0-313-34641-5.
8. Totten, Samuel; Bartrop, Paul R.; Jacobs, Steven L. (2008). Dictionary of genocide. Vol. 2. Greenwood Publishing Group. ISBN 978-0-313-34644-6.
9. Moses, A. Dirk (ed.). Empire, Colony, Genocide: Conquest, Occupation, and Subaltern Resistance in World History. Oxford and New York: Berghahn Books. ISBN 978-1-84545-452-4.
10. Bloxham, Donald; Moses, A. Dirk, eds. (2010). The Oxford Handbook of Genocide Studies. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-923211-6.
11. Üngör, Uğur Ümit; Keppy, Peter; de Zwarte, Ingrid; Kristel, Conny; Berkhoff, Karel, eds. (2016). Genocide. Amsterdam University Press. JSTOR j.ctt1d8hb37.
12. Adhikari, Mohamed, ed. (2019). Civilian-Driven Violence and the Genocide of Indigenous Peoples in Settler Societies. Routledge. doi:10.4324/9781003015550-2. ISBN 9781003015550.
13. Jacob, Frank; Göllnitz, Martin, eds. (2023). Genocide and Mass Violence in the Age of Extremes. De Gruyter. doi:10.1515/9783110781328. ISBN 978-3-11-078132-8. ISSN 2626-6490.
14. Kiernan, Ben; Lemos, T. M.; Taylor, Tristan S., eds. (2023). The Cambridge World History of Genocide. Vol. I: Genocide in the Ancient, Medieval and Premodern Worlds. Cambridge University Press. doi:10.1017/9781108655989. ISBN 978-1-108-65598-9.
15. Blackhawk, Ned; Kiernan, Ben; Madley, Benjamin; Taylor, Rebe, eds. (2023). The Cambridge World History of Genocide. Vol. II: Genocide in the Indigenous, Early Modern and Imperial Worlds, from c.1535 to World War One. Cambridge University Press. doi:10.1017/9781108765480. ISBN 978-1-108-76548-0.
16. Kiernan, Ben; Lower, Wendy; Naimark, Norman; Straus, Scott (eds.). The Cambridge World History of Genocide. Vol. III: Genocide in the Contemporary Era, 1914–2020. Cambridge University Press. doi:10.1017/9781108767118. ISBN 978-1-108-48707-8.
17. Jones, Adam (2024). Genocide: A comprehensive introduction (4th ed.). Routledge. ISBN 978-1032028101.
18. Bhattacharyya, Rituparna, ed. (2024). Genocides and Xenophobia in South Asia and Beyond: A Transdisciplinary Perspective on Known, Lesser-known and Unknown Crime of Crimes. Routledge. ISBN 9781032071220.
19. Bachman, Jeffrey S.; Ruiz, Esther Brito, eds. (2025). A Modern History of Forgotten Genocides and Mass Atrocities. Routledge. ISBN 9781032431154.

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:44, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For coordinating, it would probably be best to look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Death and Wikipedia:WikiProject Human rights. Though I have no experience in either project. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 16:18, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome. I don't have experience with either. I guess the issue with using any of teh pages in question is they're rather busy with other stuff atm—blindlynx 17:02, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gaza Genocide

Hi!

I just wanted to say that I did not remove the estimate unilaterally. An admin suggested temporarily removing the estimate whilst some kind of discussion occurs, so I followed their suggestion by starting an RfC and removed it per their suggestion. In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have made such a bold edit given how contentious it was and the previous edit warring. Originalcola (talk) 23:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Originalcola apologies, id missen that in Valeree's conment. I have self reversed. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 08:41, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indian Coast Guard

This audit report of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India list the ranks and insignia of Indian Coast Guard with images. However, some of the insignias doesn't completely match with the ICG template. 117.230.93.244 (talk) 16:28, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Better late…

I think I might find some time to finally add the missing German law professors to the genocide article. That would be Ambos, Goldmann, Hartwig and Müller, Khan, Sassoli and Diggelmann as well as Walter, right?

However, there is a minor problem regarding this: I have a COI for one of them, but I’m not really looking to dox myself. Personally, I would probably just write it up and post it on the talk page, disclosing it as “COI for all of them”; do you think that would be in line with the relevant policy, or is this likely to get me in trouble? FortunateSons (talk) 18:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Declaring the COI like that, and giving it to the talk page to consider, should be ok, though I'm not well read on policies. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:28, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thank you! FortunateSons (talk) 18:31, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do you think? Any objections?

In December 2023, Kai Ambos, a professor of international and criminal law at the University of Göttingen and judge at the Kosovo Special Tribunal, warned that potentially genocidal statements by politicians, while potentially beneficial for proving specific intent, could not necessarily be applied to the evaluation of military decisions. [2] In January 2024, Christian Walter, a Professor of Public Law and Public International Law at the LMU in Munich, argued in the Verfassungsblog that the extend of harm to both civilians and infrastructure weren’t conclusive, and that attempts to evacuate civilians were an indication against genocidal intent. [3]. Matthias Goldmann, a professor of international law at the EBS University, stated in April that there a conviction before the ICJ was uncertain and that there was no “smoking gun” proving the special intent. [4]

Marco Sassoli and Oliver Diggelmann, professors of international law in Gevena and Zurich, argued in May that while some statements by politicians may be genocidal, the same did not apply to the actions of the Israeli military; Diggelmann believes that a conviction for genocide is unlikely.[5] Andreas Müller, a professor of international law at the University of Basel, stated the the term genocide was being used as a term of criticism instead of according to its legal definition, and added that “there was no sufficient ground of genocide if one takes the legal term seriously”.[6] Daniel-Erasmus Khan, professor of international law at the university of the Bundeswehr in Munich, stated in June that there was no clear evidence of a special intent among Israeli leadership.[7] FortunateSons (talk) 19:17, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Generally ok, my only suggestion is you don't need to list the university each is based at. Posting this to the article talk page will have others go over it as well of course. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:32, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That’s a good idea, thank you! FortunateSons (talk) 20:32, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, I'm not permitted to make an update, but would you mind adding a new entry for this to the list? I would suggest the the text: In der Tat ist die Hürde für die Feststellung eines Genozids sehr hoch. Die Vernichtungsabsicht lässt sich nicht leicht nachweisen. Sofern wie hier keine direkten Vernichtungsbefehle vorliegen, setzt der Internationale Gerichtshof den Nachweis eines “pattern of conduct” voraus, das sich nicht anders als ein Vernichtungsplan lesen lässt. Die Lage im Gazastreifen bleibt schwierig zu beurteilen. Aber: Die Anzeichen für einen Genozid verdichten sich. Zumindest das Risiko eines Genozids, von dem auch der IGH spricht, würde ich hier als gegeben ansehen. Die Menschen im Gazastreifen sind auf humanitäre Hilfe angewiesen und aus meiner Sicht kann man die Hilfe in der vorgesehenen Übergangsfrist von drei Monaten nicht effektiv neu regeln., logged as maybe. FortunateSons (talk) 09:01, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I take it that it's a COI matter. I've not read the article fully, but skim doesn't flag any concerns of it being a bad source, the guy looks to have work that is of note for this sort of stuff, and being associated with a Max Planck outfit is a good sign. I'll read it properly later, and look at adding it with a couple of other pieces that I need to add to the list. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 10:33, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is a COI issue (acquired after I wrote the wiki article, just for the sake of clarity). There is an old entry to the list ("smoking gun"), but this is newer and more detailed, so I thought an update would be beneficial; however, there is a good reason that our policy dictates that I'm not allowed to decide that. Thank you very much for the assistance, no matter which decision you make :) FortunateSons (talk) 10:40, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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January 2025

Hello, I'm SoyokoAnis. I noticed that you recently removed content from Antisemitism without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. (You blanked the whole page.) SoyokoAnis - talk | PLEASE PING 14:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@SoyokoAnis that was a technical error trying to edit via the app. My apologies. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 14:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You're good! Happy editing! SoyokoAnis - talk | PLEASE PING 14:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Genocide navbox

Hi, I am writing you with regards to your edit here [8]. I have removed certain entries for one simple reason: not every massacre is a genocide. My opinion is that an article needs to have at least two reliable sources describing it as genocide if it merits to be included in the Genocide navbox. For instance, Asiatic Vespers has no sources claiming it is a genocide. The Japanese colonization of Hokkaido|Ainu has no article at all, and needs to be written first before it can be included at all. Osage Indian murders has a too small number of killed people to be considered a genocide. Khmelnytsky Uprising has no claim in the article that it is genocide. 1740 Batavia massacre has no sources claiming it is a genocide. Kantō Massacre has no sources claiming it is a genocide. Napalpí massacre has no sources claiming it is a genocide. Do you agree that, at a minimum, these crimes should not be included in the Genocide navbox because they have no source defining it as a genocide in the article?--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 19:01, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I need only your claim of has a too small number of killed people to be considered a genocide to disregard your argument. Such a claim is at odds with the entire field of genocide studies, whether coming from the UN convention in a legal framework or coming from sociological or historical frameworks. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:11, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Arctic Circle System: pinging you as you mainly manage the navbox. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:13, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You can disregard the argument about Osage Indian murders, but it wasn't the only argument made here, since you further ignore that four other cases, Khmelnytsky Uprising, 1740 Batavia massacre, Kantō Massacre and Napalpí massacre, were also mentioned as articles which have no reliable sources describing them as genocides. Either you find these sources and include them in these articles, or we cannot insert these articles in the Genocide navbox. --3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 13:14, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Cdjp1: @3E1I5S8B9RF7: For some of the entries removed, notably those on the list of genocides in history, that discussion is best taken up on the aforementioned page. As for the Asiatic Vespers, it explicitly states "They were planned, with Mithridates writing secretly to regional satraps and leaders to kill all Italian residents (along with wives, children, and freedmen of Italian birth) thirty days after the day of writing." I do not think I need to elaborate further on that front. Arctic Circle System (talk) 21:49, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Where are the reliable sources claiming it is a genocide? This is WP:OR. You can infer conclusions from such statement, but we cannot have in the article Asiatic Vespers something like "it is genocide, source: Arctic Circle System". You need to find reliable sources describing it as such.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 13:14, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

So if it literally describes the event explicitly as something that falls so much within the definition of genocide as killing every member of an ethnic group within a region but doesn't use the word itself it doesn't count? That's absurd. Arctic Circle System (talk) 19:44, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Genocides in history (before World War I)#Asiatic Vespers - [46] -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:57, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Arctic Circle System: I explained it to you, there needs to be a reliable source for a claim. Your own opinion just doesn't count. Even the article Armenian genocide, which has the word "genocide" in its title, has sources for the claim that it is a genocide. Instead of guessing which massacre is or is not a genocide, cut to the chase and find reliable sources, and then insert them into articles. A quick Google search already shows a source that describes Asiatic Vespers as a genocide [9], so try to do this with other articles missing such important description.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 10:57, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also that. Quite frankly, I think a lot of this discussion is misplaced and should be discussed in the talk page of articles like that, not the talk page of a user who sometimes edits a navbox related to it. Arctic Circle System (talk) 00:00, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Weird, previously you were making bold claims that no such sources existed... -- Cdjp1 (talk) 14:42, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Cdjp1: practice your comprehension skills. I did not claim that sources describing said events as genocide by historians or scholars did not exist, but rather that no such source existed in these articles. And that this should be corrected to have at least two such sources if a crime should be included in the Genocide navbox. --3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 16:10, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean "guessing"? In the case of the Asiatic Vespers, the source specifically stated intent to kill all Italian residents. Unless you want to claim that attempting to kill every member of an ethnic group in a region isn't genocide, the conclusion even from that source is clear. Arctic Circle System (talk) 17:55, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia isn't about your private conclusions and thoughts, but about reliable sources. Leave that to historians or scholars. Your task is then to find such sources and include them in these articles.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 16:10, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a private conclusion, I- forget it. I guess even if a source describes an event as verbatim the definition of genocide but they don't use the word itself it's not enough. Cool. Arctic Circle System (talk) 19:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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