User talk:Reaper1945

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Welcome to Wikipedia, Reaper1945! Thank you for your contributions. I am Destroyeraa and I have been editing Wikipedia for some time, so if you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on my talk page. If you wish to contact me on this page, please use {{Ping|Destroyeraa}} such that I get notified of your request. You can also check out Wikipedia:Questions or type {{help me}} at the bottom of this page. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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November 2020

Information icon Please do not add or change content, as you did at Orders of magnitude (power), without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. If reinstating material about the 2004 Indian ocean earthquake, please be sure to cite a source on the power output, as otherwise the added content is considered original research. Ionmars10 (talk) 03:31, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't exactly call it original research, it's stated that the time in which the quake lasted was 10 minutes, and in order to calculate watts you divide watt-hours by time. Reaper1945 (talk) 03:41, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, excuse any mistakes I make or delay in response, I'm getting use to some of the processes on here. Reaper1945 (talk) 03:43, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Scholarly Barnstar
message DishingMachine (talk) 00:34, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Important Notice

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have shown interest in the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

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Mathsci (talk) 04:18, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

February 2021

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on School discipline; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

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Note that per WP:ONUS The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. Generalrelative (talk) 05:47, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Your edit in Champions Chess Tour 2021

Hi – I just undid this edit you made in Champions Chess Tour 2021. I believe the points were correct as previously stated. You can see the points awarded for the FTX Crypto Cup at 5:01:30 in the commentary stream with Leko and Sachdev. (Wikipedia doesn't let me post the YouTube link here, but you can find it under "day 2 finals ftx crypto".) If you disagree, please explain why (here or on the talk page). Joriki (talk) 19:57, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Looked at the point system, yours is most likely the correct version, looked at the point table from Chess24.com, they had it as 88 for Carlsen, 56 for So, but later corrected it to the version put in currently. Was a mistake. ---- Reaper1945 (talk) 20:10, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rude revert

You haven't even provided an edit summary here (something which you should definitively do when you revert a good-faith edit). Please then take the opportunity here to explain why you think the material you re-instated should be included: as I said, it's an obvious example of WP:NOTDATABASE. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 05:06, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

First off, don't use my talk page to harass or complain, there's a thousand other places. Second off, every fighter, whether MMA or boxing has their fights and results listed near the bottom of their pages, don't know why you randomly targeted Whittaker's page for really no reason when it has already been established. Reaper1945 (talk) 05:17, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Talk pages are exactly there to point out issues with edits. As to your second point, is this some form of Wikiproject WP:LOCALCONSENSUS? Because clearly that would be the only explanation why material which is so obviously WP:NOTDATABASE is there (and it still wouldn't be a good reason not to remove it: rather, it would be grounds to go and overhaul whatever the Wikiproject guidelines are). We don't have play-by-play accounts for any other sport, nor do footballers, or even participants in other individual sports (like fencing) get a match-by-match database listing in their articles. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:58, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the talk page of the page in question. I'm not the person to ask about it, the information about their fights and results have been there for years, it's not some idea that was created over night. Results for fights and competitions are listed for wrestlers, boxers and MMA fighters. Reaper1945 (talk) 17:04, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Gordon Ryan, André Galvão

Hi @Reaper1945 Please don't forget to source your edits per WP:CITE and WP:RS Thank you Lewolka (talk) 09:12, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

August 2022

Information icon Hello, I'm Cassiopeia. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, List of current UFC fighters, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Cassiopeia talk 09:53, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Jewish

Hello, this information has been rejected on the talkpage, and the IP started a povpushing edit war instead. Please do not participate. Beibler (talk) 22:06, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

April 2023

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Information icon Please do not add or change content, as you did at Erling Haaland, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. Mattythewhite (talk) 16:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox timestamps

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May 2023

Warning icon Please stop. If you continue to add unsourced or poorly sourced content, as you did at Erling Haaland, you may be blocked from editing. Several prior warnings for unsourced content, please start using references for your edits. TylerBurden (talk) 07:50, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

August 2023

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Please stop your disruptive editing.

If you continue to disrupt Wikipedia, as you did at Gareth Bale, you may be blocked from editing. Seasider53 (talk) 06:47, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also:

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Preview – Consolidate – Summarize

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Walsh's numbers

I think you have some wrong in Battle of Stalingrad. Walsh's numbers including 494,374 German’s allied casualties, and 400,000 German casualties. Thus, total number is 894,374, not 794,374123.18.99.55 (talk) 04:17, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to Walsh "The combined German losses of 6th Army and 4th Panzer were over 300,000 men", and if expanded to included the date of 28 June and Army Group A, it would be 600,000, which is not an accurate number. Reaper1945 (talk) 04:20, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:UNDUE

Please read the policy on undue weight, which is that not all sources and theories are equal. Some sources have higher levels of journalistic integrity and fact checking than others, and sources such as Associated Press and Reuters are gold standards. We have literally hundreds of articles on one side, versus a single one from a Russian source. Until the high quality sources take this theory seriously, it is simply undue to include it. Our loyalty are to our readers to give them the best information possible, not to include all possible theories and viewpoints, irrespective of the quality of said theories.

For Russian sources specifically, the country lacks a fully free press. They are ranked 164 on the World Press Freedom Index and the deterioration of the free press in Russia is well documented. Russian sources should not be cited in a proper encyclopedia article as of now. Furthermore, Ukrainian press should not be cited either. Harizotoh9 (talk) 03:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Nomination of Battle of Chasiv Yar for deletion

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March 2024

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Welcome!

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Pending changes reviewer granted

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~ ToBeFree (talk) 14:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Barbarossa

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May 2024

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Bad faith editing practices on Chernobyl disaster

Let me get this straight. Given your comment about 'bourda', you know full well that the use of dust suppression spray was widespread during the liquidation phase, yet you *still* removed the paragraph. That is textbook bad faith editing. Replace the source with a "Citation Needed" tag if you like, but do not remove information which you know to be true. I see that your talk page contains numerous warnings for engaging in edit warring behavior like this, so this is my last request to follow proper practices. I will certainly reach out to third parties for assistance if I needed to.

P.S., while 'bourda' is popular spelling, 'barda' (барда) is the original and correct term, as used by the scientists who developed its use in the Zone.Sredmash (talk) 23:33, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sredmash If you want to keep the information that badly on the page, then it is your job as the defending editor to find an adequate source, there's a reason another editor put dubious source there, so it is not just me. By the way, "bourda" is by far the most common spelling, not "barda", again, provide sources instead of trying to attack somrone and doing nothing to actually back up your defense besides "bad faith", and not giving an actual scientific or legitimate source other than Getty Images, which is not a scientific source nor adequate storage of good information. Reaper1945 (talk) 23:37, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The person who put the dubious source tag was me. Because that is the correct response to a dubious source. The onus is on you the remover to demonstrate that the information should be removed. Lack of a good source is not grounds for removal of common knowledge and basic facts. 'Bourda' may be more common in certain circles, but is virtually unheard-of in reputable scientific and institutional sources, especially those dating to the Soviet period. The Kurchatov Institute and other MinSredMash organizations refer to barda in formal documents.Sredmash (talk) 23:54, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The use of bourda is not a common fact, considering that's why the source was Getty Images and there was only one sentence about it. If you put the dubious source, then should you not have provided a more adequate source in the first place? Reaper1945 (talk) 00:02, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

many thanks (and a question)

The Original Barnstar
For your contributions to the battle of shanghai and stalingrad articlesWahreit (talk) 04:03, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


also, as someone who is interested in urban warfare, would you have any good reads for the battles of shanghai? appreciate it. Wahreit (talk) 04:03, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Wahreit Thanks for the Barnstar. Regarding your question, I think there's a few good ones, the best probably being the book "Shanghai 1937: Stalingrad on the Yangtze" by Peter Harmsen. The battle isn't usually covered in singular books, but for one that does, Harmsen covers it best. A lot of books that cover the Second Sino-Japanese War will also talk about it, though to varying degrees. Reaper1945 (talk) 10:05, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
thanks. i'd also rec you check out nanjing 1937, battle for a doomed city if you haven't read it already. you can access it for free on internet archive. also, if you are interested in stalingrad, check out chris bellamy's absolute war. Wahreit (talk) 16:41, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
also, just to clear a possible point of contention on the battle of shanghai page, it seems the japanese did deploy poison gas at Shanghai, at least according to scm paine's book. harmsen says differently though, what do you think? Wahreit (talk) 03:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Wahreit Could put that it's contested, as the authors are competing, may need multiple sources to give more evidence to either side. Reaper1945 (talk) 00:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
gotcha. i'll look a bit more into it. Wahreit (talk) 19:52, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
hi Reaper1945, hope everything's been well with you. reaching out again as another military history buff, would it be possible if you could check the defense of sihang warehouse page (and history and talk page) some time? i've been making periodic edits there for a while, but it's caused quite a ruckus every time. your input on the info would be much appreciated, thanks partner. Wahreit (talk) 00:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Wahreit I can check it out no problem, hope everything is well with you too. Reaper1945 (talk) 01:45, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
appreciate you. 🙏 Wahreit (talk) 00:56, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
hi @Reaper1945. just following up to see what you think of the situation on the sihang warehouse page. it seems there's a quite some controversy there. (also harmsen did write a chapter about sihang warehouse in his book, just to lyk) Wahreit (talk) 17:03, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd have to look more into it, as a lot of sources are mentioned as well, not to mention conflicting accounts about units apparently. Reaper1945 (talk) 07:59, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]


I would like to discuss reverting the change you made on Japans body count

Hi. I'm undeadmerc3. I noticed you editted the death toll on Japans war crimes from 10-30 million to exclusively 30 million. You mentioned that the 10-14 estimate is from a history forum however the source on the forum is Sterling Seagrave whom alongside his wife has written numerous books about Japans aggression. It's also worth mentioning that Sterling Seagrave is not the only historian whom has put the body count at at least 10 million. M.R.D Foot puts the estimate at 10-20 million with the latter estimate being cited by Herbert Blix and John Dower. As for the history forum that was cited it was an online interview with Sterling Seagrave himself. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9196

I'd like to discuss reverting the death toll back as there are many folks on the discussion page of Japans war crimes discussion page whom have debated the numbers.

Undeadmerc3 — Preceding undated comment added 17:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Undeadmerc3 I'm not the editor who removed the forum source, and regardless, a forum with random users is not a reliable source by any means on Wikipedia. If you have a reliable source which gives a figure and or calculates it like Craig does in his scoping book which covers all of it and further calculates it, along with being the most recent source on the topic itself, then it can be added. Reaper1945 (talk) 18:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Undeadmerc3 Bryan Mark Rigg, regardless of his criticisms, which all historians and authors get, his book on Japan has been praised and is very-well cited. Also the 30,000,000 million killed by Japan is not exclusive to World War 2, it extends back to 1927. If you want to include Seagrave then cite one of his books, as even if you wanted to include the forum citation, it wouldn't stand because Wikipedia doesn't really allow for it. Is there a book or anything to cite? Reaper1945 (talk) 19:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I checked the reviews on Amazon. I don't think 3.5 of an average score is well praised. The point still remains that multiple sources an estimates need to be included. M.R.D. Foot for example includes the death toll at 10-20 million and Herbert Blix and John Dower include 20 million. Undeadmerc3 (talk) 19:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Undeadmerc3 Amazon reviews aren't exactly that reliable of a source, one of the reviews quite literally denies the Nanjing massacre as being that bad and downplays the war crimes. Wherever you get your sources, you need to give a citation regardless. Reaper1945 (talk) 20:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In all fairness, I took a look at the reviews after my last comment, and i'm sorry I didn't do so before. However, respectfully speaking, I don't see this conversation going anywhere. The point is part of wikipedia standards involves using as many sources as possible. I would like to discuss this with the main editor. Thank you for your time. Undeadmerc3 (talk) 20:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Undeadmerc3 That's fine, but regardless, if you want to put a number in, just cite a source beyond a forum and it should be fine. Reaper1945 (talk) 20:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. I'm new to Wikipedia. Can you tell me who the main editor for the page on Japans war crimes is. I went to the talk page there, but I can't seem to find the who seems to be in charge of moderating editing on that page. Undeadmerc3 (talk) 02:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no main editor for any single page. Reaper1945 (talk) 00:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you know what admin oversees the page on Japans war crimes? I'd like to chat with him if you do. Thanks. Undeadmerc3 (talk) 01:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Undeadmerc3 There is none, it's just open to editors. The person who removed the forum citation is @LilAhok. Reaper1945 (talk) 01:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. 76.108.108.12 (talk) 02:05, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


But they aren't random users. If you checked the source I provided above it's an interview with Sterling Seagrave himself. As for other estimates they are listed here. As for "Craig" who are you referring to? The only two sources I found are Mark Felton who despite being a respectable historian somehow didn't cite his source in his video and Bryan Mark Rigg whom has been under fire and criticized for his work as not being a historian. Make no mistake. I'm open to anything, but I typed Craig in the search bar on the page and all I got was some citation of a guy named "Craig Symonds," however the link was broken. It's acceptable to include 30 million, but there are so many perspectives on how many died citing them all is part of Wikipedia standards. 50-55 million civilians died during world war 2 and the 30 million estimate on Japans part needs to be put into perspective. It's fine to include the 30 million estimate, but the numbers are all over the place and part of Wikipedia policy involves citing many perspectives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Mass_killings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Mark_Rigg#Criticism

Undeadmerc3


Is there a reason why you and LilAhok rely too much on Bryan Mark Riggs as a credible source

I don't wanna sound like the bad guy here and I understand that RJ Rummels estimate on Japans body count is too low and dated, but the way you edited his source out of the Japanese war crimes page sounded like Mark Rigg's estimate is the end all be all estimate despite the fact that Riggs is known for relaying on sensationalism and controversy over historical accuracy. https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/in-the-wolfs-mouth-6386054

https://www.chronicle.com/article/were-there-jews-in-the-nazi-army/

https://networks.h-net.org/node/35008/reviews/43906/fine-rigg-hitlers-jewish-soldiers-untold-story-nazi-racial-laws-and-men

Despite having research access from 6 institutions China and Japan both feed off of one anthers historical negationism since China has a bad habit of adding Mao's body count to Japans body count the same why denialists of the nanking massacre add to Mao's body count. It wasn't till the 1970's and 80's when Japan was pressurized on this sort of thing. Till then Mao actually suppressed movements in China that wanted Japan to apologize during the Anti Rightist campaign and even falsely told Japanese law makers in 1955 that they "already apologized" when in reality Mao was more interested in building soft power in Japan as evidenced by the 1960's protests in Japan. These first two citations below speak for themselves, but the rest actually are telling on how China and Japan feed off one anothers historical negationism(for a citation of how China rewrites world war 2, see the last citation before the next paragraph). Granted many history groups in China will show the Kuomintang fighting the Japanese, but are these groups independent enough? Don't get me wrong. Japan has a serious problem with revisionism especially these days with the geo political situation. It's a cycle of denialism that feed the beast. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/china-japan-world-war-ii-tokyo-trial/675660/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzRWPGSaKDk

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335491510_There_Is_No_Crisis_and_It_Is_Going_to_Go_Away_Soon_Anyhow_-Propaganda_Denialism_and_Revisionism_in_Debating_the_Great_Leap_Forward_Famine

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-06-24/china-world-history-erasure-youth-censorship

https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/02/27/china-again-whitewashes-history

https://uselesstree.typepad.com/useless_tree/2013/02/great-leap-famine-denial.html


https://lawliberty.org/book-review/chinas-regime-rewrites-world-war-ii-history/

One of the more questionable claims in Mark Riggs books his he claims that Japanese soldiers didn't have psychosis's when committing atrocities which is likely misleading given the fact that 60 percent of all military deaths during Japans aggression was due to famine and disease given how poorly feed they were. It's something that is downplayed as a likely motive on why the atrocities we so brutal. I seriously think that Japanese mental health institutions were over crowded at the end of the war with former soldiers.

https://asian.fiu.edu/jsr/baba-junko-revision-7.10-corrections-added.pdf

Undeadmerc3 — Preceding undated comment added 22:46, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you answer here please? Undeadmerc3 (talk) 22:51, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rummel's estimate is decades old and a lownballing of the actual death toll. Rigg, despite claims of sensationalism, is still a reliable source and the most recent available, dating from 2024. Adding a bunch of random websites that chalk up their own numbers isn't adding anything to the death toll, there's too many estimates in the given infobox and just crowding it unnecessarily. Reaper1945 (talk) 00:41, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will admit that Rummel is not without his critics so i'll swallow my pride and let that sit out, but sensationalism isn't the only critique that has been given towards Riggs. I do have a more direct critique given towards Riggs book based on a teacher who interviewed him. It contains a list of connected comments on some of the methods he uses. The second link below is a link to the interview.
https://x.com/AndrewinFukuoka/status/1798947038807351781
https://newbooksnetwork.com/japans-holocaust Undeadmerc3 (talk) 00:55, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For one of the sources listed in the infobox, it's just a link to buy the book, it's not even a proper citation, no page number or anything. The casualty section of the infobox is crowded with four different estimates, not even done correctly. I'll look into what other issues with Riggs, but he's credible and most recent. Reaper1945 (talk) 01:01, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To the right of the above link is a play button for the interview. That's what I was referring to.
I acknowledge the overwhelming likelyness that Japans body count is likely higher than Germany for a multitude of reasons. It isn't my intention to debate that so I will admit that adding Rummels estimate despite my aims at putting in multiple sources, was inaccurate. However both Japan and China do exploit their own negationism be it denialism of Japans body count on Japans side and mitigation of Mao Zedoungs body count. It's important to remember that it wasn't till after Mao died and Dong Zo Ping took over China when China started to push Japan on this subject. By that time so many people died at the hands of the Maoist regime. Sorry for all this hassle. Politics is part of Wikipedia editing at times.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/china-japan-world-war-ii-tokyo-trial/675660/#:~:text=When%20Chinese%20officials%20and%20elites,their%20country%20in%20the%201930s. Undeadmerc3 (talk) 01:03, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One more thing. I misread the tweet that I included. The interview wasn't by the same person who made the tweet and that means alot considering that the tweet points out the flaws in Riggs methods(not that Japan is excused considering that it killed more than the Germans). Sorry to sound like i'm bombarding with multiple messages. I don't think I can edit comments. I've only been on this site a few months. Undeadmerc3 (talk) 01:33, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Any U.S. scholarly references on Nazi supporter François-Louis Auvity?

Hello, I was able to appreciate your degree of precision and the extent of your knowledge concerning the Second World War and the Holocaust. I wrote the article on the French equivalent of Alois Hudal, François-Louis Auvity. However, I only found academic references produced by French scholars. Are there any American references about him, or is this character too insignificant for anyone to have ever cared about him on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean? Thank you very much in advance for your answer (and pardon my English). Mémoiredumaquis (talk) 16:03, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the question, I haven't studied the individual you mention, but I'm sure there's some source of him to some degree that talk about him. I'll check if there are any reliable or decent sources that go into any depth about him. Reaper1945 (talk) 16:26, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll be waiting to hear back from you, then. I'm much obliged for your invaluable help! Mémoiredumaquis (talk) 10:21, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks...

...for your edit about Euler and Virgil's Aeneid. That is a fascinating fact which I had never come across. JBW (talk) 16:45, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Trial of Geoffrey Fieger, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Times-News.

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Questionable licence for Tyson photo

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Georges St-Pierre

Hi Reaper1945, Good day. I understand your point/intention. I watched the fight and "think" Hendrick won the fight. However, this is Wikipedia and we have to stick to the source, writing the article in neutral point of view. Pls note that we dont "Retrospective" of a bout. We state what the source state in neutral point of view. We can state what media score the fight in MMA decision, (if majority of the media score for Hendricks, then we can put it is a controversy) the result of the bout and if needed, (not all the times) state a few "play by play" of the bout. Thank you and stay safe. Cassiopeia talk 03:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cassiopeia Thanks for the concern, my edit was to show the controversy as to why it appears St-Pierre did not win. For example, Ben Fowlkes states that "Hendricks won his rounds by a wide margin, while St-Pierre just sort of eked out his", making it seem as that why it was close despite St-Pierre winning 3 rounds. Another thing is Dana's outburst at the post-fight conference saying Hendricks won, but then reportedly rewatched the bout and called GSP to tell him he did win. So, my edit was to explain the controversy due to the scoring, not change NPOV. Reaper1945 (talk) 03:14, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Reaper1945, We dont take what Dana's said/says as he is not a reliable nor independent source (the publisher might be a reliable, independent source, but the content is based on what Dana's opion that makes the source not reliable nor independent). We state the results of the fight and we can add the word "controversy" as per MMA decision media score. The viewers can click on the sources and read the sources for more info. MMA decision media scores is the usual source we take to indicate a bout result is not in agreement with the judges / it was a controversy result. I have added sources and change the wording slightly. If you want, pls reword it better - see HERE. Stays safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 03:36, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Dirlewanger

Hi, you reverted an edit I made which basically removed the assertion in the lede that Dirlewanger is "considered one of the most cruel and depraved individuals in all of history". While I agree with the claim, it seems true to common sense, but not verifiable. I think its inclusion in the lede is a bit sensationalistic--just because two authors said so (without citation) doesn't mean that there's a scholarly ranking of "most depraved individuals of history", or something. Maybe "described as" would be better? Or simply quoting p. 84 of "Sex under the Swastika"? I would say that Jeffrey Dahmer was a pretty bad guy, but he isn't described as "one of the most evil serial killers ever" in the lede, even though you could probably find an author who says just that. Theodore Christopher (talk) 18:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Theodore Christopher The inclusion of the information is just fine and has been for quite a while, there doesn't need to be an overload of citations to support the statement, nor a "scholarly ranking" to affirm something, two citations from historians is just fine, and they are in line with historical accounts of Dirlewanger and his unit. Also, there's a reason it says "one of", there is no statement saying he is the single worst or some ranking that it was pulled from, it's a statement by historians. Reaper1945 (talk) 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The thing is that an unverifiable claim can not be verified by any amount of citations. This is a situation where, as I said, the inclusion of the broad "considered" makes the claim sensationalized, just as saying that "Jeff Dahmer is considered one of the most depraved serial killers in all of history" is an unhelpful statement for the lede of the Dahmer article. What do these authors know "the most depraved individuals in history" writ large? Before you inserted the "history" claim, you limited the "most depraved" title to World War II, which makes sense. I just really don't see the point of this, especially when the last paragraph of the lede contains nearly-identical, but less vague, claims citing the same sources (not to mention that both sources cited are by specialized military historians who go further than more academic historians, such as the already-cited Timothy Snyder.)
This seems like a clear-cut instance of an unverifiable and non-neutral claim. Just compare this lede to the ledes of Rudolf Höss or Josef Mengele, you will see what I mean. Theodore Christopher (talk) 20:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Theodore Christopher It is verifiable by accounts of his actions and his men, and its not uncommon for someone to be proclaimed "one of" something in their lede, for example Napoleon or Suvorov in their ledes. You keep claiming unverified when it's a generalized statement through the evidence gathered of Dirlewanger, you keep comparing it to an absolute declaration of him being the single worst or some sort of ranking, which it never was nor intended to be. The statement is just in line with what's found in the sources by the authors, "a man who many describe as one of the most evil and depraved figures not only within the Nazi Third Reich, but throughout history itself." At most the statement could be moved to the last paragraph of the lede. Reaper1945 (talk) 20:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't doubt that Dirlewanger was one of the worst people in history, but it remains an unverifiable claim. Historians often make "history's greatest generals" claims, since the title is pretty easily quantifiable based on battles won, land conquered, etc. But it's harder to quantify depraved acts.
As I have said, these claims in the lede are out of line with other historical monsters are represented on Wikipedia, see Mengele or Marc Dutroux. These men could all be convincingly represented as being one of the "most cruel and depraved individuals in all of history", but other editors hold off in keeping with WP:POV. I'm willing to yield that Dirlewanger does indeed represent an exceptional case, and don't ask that assertions of evil be fully expunged from the lede, just this one statement. Also, both of the pages you site that make superlative claims are pages specifically dedicated to crimes, not people. Theodore Christopher (talk) 20:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Theodore Christopher There are human examples, for example Reinhard Heydrich's lede states him "as one of the darkest figures within the Nazi regime", or Idi Amin's lede states him to be "one of the most brutal despots in modern world history". I would add that considering Dirlewanger's unit is regarded as the worst SS unit in both Belarus and Poland, and according to historian Christian Ingrao, committed the worst war crimes of the war, the largest and most destructive war in history, it would not be far off. Reaper1945 (talk) 21:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Reaper1945 I take no issue with labeling the Dirlewanger Brigade as the worst SS unit, or military unit writ large (I'm not certain if the latter claim is made, but I think it is). It can be situated within the context of "military units" and "wars".
Likewise, Reinhard Heydrich's personality is situated within the rogue's gallery that was the Nazi regime, and Idi Amin is situated within the ranks of "despots" and "modern history". (As with generals, "most brutal dictator" is a title that is pretty commonly assigned to different men. "Most cruel and depraved person" isn't). I still can't imagine another well-read, prominent page that situates a person's character within "humanity" and "all of history", which is exactly what the claim I would like out of the page does. Theodore Christopher (talk) 21:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Reaper1945 Hi, just chiming in to ask whether you could summon some mediation for this...I only ask because you're a more experienced editor than I am, and assume you know more about dispute resolution. But I feel like we're both pretty dug in on our opinions, so best to ask for mediation. Theodore Christopher (talk) 03:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I'll see who I can get a hold of who would chime in. Or if it's an issue in the lede, then it can be moved to the assessment section of the body as "Dirlewanger has been described as . . .". Reaper1945 (talk) 17:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Reaper1945 My issue is mostly with the lede, but I feel like it's worth taking a third party look at. But what you suggest (moving to assessment section with "described as") would be fine with me, too. Theodore Christopher (talk) 19:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
For the time being, I think moving it to the body would be satisfactory as it's moved from the lede but kept on the page in an assessment section. Reaper1945 (talk) 23:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Works for me. Thank you! Theodore Christopher (talk) 03:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Theodore Christopher No problem, not too bad of an issue to solve, especially with a page like this. If you need any other help I can assist in the future. Reaper1945 (talk) 03:38, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Theodore Christopher The statement is generalized and not claiming to be absolute or ranking, examples of ledes where they claim to be the actual worst is for example the murder of Sylvia Likens in the lede states "The torture and murder of Sylvia Likens is widely regarded by Indiana citizens as the worst crime ever committed in their state" or the murder of Junko Furuta is stated in the lede to be "the worst case of juvenile criminality in the country's post-war history." Reaper1945 (talk) 20:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Reaper1945 as an addendum to my latest post here, these pages put the crimes in superlative terms, but neither assert that Hiroshi Miyano &co or the Baniszewskis are "considered to be the most cruel individuals in all of history." Theodore Christopher (talk) 20:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Theodore Christopher The examples are claiming to be the worst in their subjects history, yet is the murder of Sylvia Likens actually verifiable as the single worst crime in Indiana history as claimed by the lede? Reaper1945 (talk) 20:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Reaper1945 no, but as I said, the statements concern actions, not people. This was only a side-note anyway, I neglected to tag you on the post made at 20:50, but that contains my actual point. Theodore Christopher (talk) 21:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have sent you a note about a page you started

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