We now have an edit war over whether articles that are in parent and child categories have the two sitting together in Perth suburb articles, it would be good if we could have a level headed discussion here to at least understand both sides of the argument, so I do hope that the two protagonists can come here and states their case (spoiler alert, I have previously had many discussions with Mitch about subcat/parent cat issues and recuse myself from making any further comment) - Mitch - Drover's - over to you folks. JarrahTree00:54, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
As I said on JarrahTree's talk page: I don't know what should happen here: all suburbs are currently in the city suburbs cat (unless they have their own suburb-specific category), and the random category for the City of Swan is an outlier. It might be that you create another category structure for suburbs-by-LGA, which may or not diffuse the main city suburbs category. It might be that you delete the City of Swan category. It might be that some other option is better. I don't particularly have a preference there. But randomly burying all the suburbs of the City of Swan (I had trouble even finding the category amidst the long lists of suburb-specific categories - and I knew what I was looking for!) because Mitch's instant response is to delete the parent is the worst of these potential outcomes. The Drover's Wife (talk) 01:10, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
...Mitch's instant response is to delete the parent is the worst of these potential outcomes — My response is to follow the well-established WP:SUBCAT guidelines - the one that says
... an article should be categorised ... without duplication in parent categories above it. In other words, a page or category should rarely be placed in both a category and a subcategory or parent category (supercategory) of that category
Of course I am well aware of the non-diffusing subcat exception - that's the bit that says "Non-diffusing subcategories should be identified with a template on the category page" - which non of the relevent categories are, nor is the parent marked as {{All included}}. As I have mentioned in previous discussions:
If you disagree with WP:SUBCAT, propose a change to it on the talk page.
If you want a category to be all-inclusive and/or a subcategory to be non-diffusing, then add the {{All included}} and/or {{Non-diffusing subcategory}} templates – that's what they are for.
Please point to me where in that quoted statement it tells you to automatically and without thinking remove the parent category in all circumstances. You often correctly flag an issue with WP:SUBCAT - the problem is in your behaviour when you find one - behaviour which has no justification in policy, guideline or common sense. As I said on your talk page: it may be that removing the parent is appropriate - or it may be that removing the child is appropriate, it may be that it is fairly obviously a non-diffusing category but not tagged as such, it may be that the category structure needs discussion and a rework, or it may be another issue entirely. Please think about these kind of restructures: unless you've thought it through and decided that it specifically, in that instance, makes sense and that people are unlikely to object, please raise it for discussion so we can focus on hashing out the issues you flag instead of having to continually discuss your behaviour instead. The Drover's Wife (talk) 14:19, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
"... no justification in policy, guideline ..." — I refer you again to the guideline WP:SUBCAT's "without duplication... rarely be placed in both a category and a subcategory or parent category ..."
"... it may be that it is fairly obviously a non-diffusing category but not tagged as such ..." — What is "obvious" is a matter of opinion, in which you and I differ. SUBCAT, however, is a fairly clear guideline. Can I suggest that next time you add articles to both parent and child categories, that you also add the appropriate previously-mentioned template(s) to the categories first, as WP:DUPCAT recommends. Had you simply added {{all included}} to the parent and then a polite edit summary in each case mentioning that the parent was now tagged as all-inclusive, there would have been no need for this discussion. Of course if you weren't sure that the parent should be all-inclusive, you could have discussed the matter first, rather than making dozens of edits that were contrary to a well-established MOS guideline. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:08, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Let me be clearer: nowhere in that sentence does it tell you to always remove the parent as a solution. I hadn't touched the category: like many, many categories on Wikipedia, it had grown organically, which means that problems, such as that you found, arise. Categories won't be tagged that need it because nobody has ever given the category serious attention. The solution to these situations is discussion, not reflexively making edits that don't make sense because you've never actually read the policy you're so fond of quoting. And I didn't tag the category because I'm not sure that's the best outcome - what it needed was a discussion about what to do with it, possibly leading to something along the lines of what Evad37 suggested below. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:24, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
"nowhere in that sentence does it tell you to always remove the parent" — Of course is doesn't; it's a style guideline, describing several possible outcomes - one of which has the article not in the parent category - not a set of instructions tell you exactly what to do. I can't find a sentence that says "do not remove the parent" either. Mitch Ames (talk) 10:49, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Of course it doesn't - because that, too, would lead to stupid outcomes. There are, obviously, times when it is valid to remove the parent category. I'm baffled why, if you admit that the guideline describes several possible outcomes, you again and again and again insist on only removing the parent categories in every situation even when this leads to outcomes that are obviously absurd. Each time these sillier cases are actually discussed - as seems to be happening here - it winds up in an agreement not to delete the parent category. So why do you keep doing it without thinking? The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:28, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Well, why do you do it in every single case, even when that results in outcomes which are obviously absurd? It's a straightforward question. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:35, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
This problem appears to stem from the fact that the article List of Perth suburbs itself is very poor, lacks clear definitions and even proper sourcing. As the article stands LGA are an unimportant secondary aspect to the suburbs that makes sub categorising by LGA imcompatible with the article. The list gives priority to the suburb over the LGA and the category is giving priority to the :GA over the suburb while neither helps navigate those suburbs that cross lga boundaries, those that have moved between lga's nor lga's that are separated from old Lga. The statement in the article refers to pdf but the pdf doesnt directly support the statement being made in the article. I think that once the list issues are resolved then the category issues will be resolvable and both will be able to consistently provide the same information. Gnangarra16:28, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
"This problem appears to stem from the fact that the article List of Perth suburbs itself is very poor,..." — I disagree. The article could be good, bad or non-existent, but that would not affect whether WP:SUBCAT and/or WP:DUPCAT applied, or whether non-diffusing or all-inclusive categories should be marked with the appropriate template. WP:CLNT explicitly allows overlapping list articles and categories. It's possible that a simple and complete list article might add weight to the case for not having an all-inclusive Category:Suburbs of Perth, Western Australia, but the fundamental disagreement between myself and The Drover's Wife (as I understand it) is not whether that category should be all-inclusive, but rather whether it should be treated as all-inclusive when not tagged as such. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:22, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
so your making all this fuss about a category not being tagged with a tag that was created years after the category was created, surely you could have just tagged the category and moved on. Gnangarra01:43, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
How about making Category:Suburbs of Perth, Western Australia an {{all included}} category, for a simple alphabetical listing without all the extra information the list article provides (or should provide); and also create all the by LGA categories, since that does seems like a useful way to navigate the articles. Suburbs across multiple LGAs can have a sort key starting with * for the LGA categories, which can be explained in the category descriptions. - Evad37[talk]03:41, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
done some more digging and found you can do by holding the shift key and then click on each column in the order you want it sort ie street name then street number... but it'd be better if it could done by anyone even without knowing that. Gnangarra10:35, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
The name of an inHerit reference for Eliza's Cottage
Now there's a street sign set up by the council, says "Melbourne Steeet, formerly Milligan Street" there
Does anyone know of any published statement / news article / gazette explicitly stating that the name has changed, and when/why, that we could use as a reference? Mitch Ames (talk) 11:49, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Rather short notice
Please note that the July meetup of the WA Wiki Club West is at State Library 10 am to 3 pm - Sunday 15th 2018
Anyone here in Perth? Every year since 2013 I've have attended the Women's National Wheelchair Basketball League finals and taken a group photo of the winning team. This year it's in Perth, at the Bendat Basketball Centre at 201 Underwood Ave, Floreat WA, between 12:00 and 14:00 on Sunday 29 July. If someone could drop in and take a pic for the article, that would be most appreciated. Hawkeye7(discuss) 23:45, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
When was the north section of Milligan St renamed to Melbourne St?
I've just updated Milligan Street, Perth and Melbourne Street, Perth to reflect the recent renaming of the northern section of the former to the latter. Can anyone provide a reference stating when that rename officially happened? I've searched the Government Gazettes but can't find it. Both articles have this awkwardly worded sentence:
In December 2017 the City of Perth Council agreed to a request from Landgate[1][2] and the portion of Milligan Street between Roe and James Streets was renamed back to Melbourne Street.
References
^"Council Minutes"(PDF). Perth City Council. 2017-12-19. p. 6. Retrieved 2018-04-06.
The reason for that wording is that the references say that the Council "seeks the Geographic Names Committee’s approval for the change of street name", but I can't find anything that says when, or even if, the Geographic Names Committee gave that approval, or when the name change officially took place.
I'm trying to determine some history of legislation and enforcement of animal control (shooting mostly) in WA. There was a parrot species, Purpureicephalus spurius (syn. Platycercus spurius), the King or Red-cap Parrot, that was 'declared' as a pest or vermin until at least 1997. Some black cockatoos were removed around that time, declared endangered instead, but my searches of government websites is not showing me the current or changed status. They were very limited in the damage they actually did to orchards and crops, I am told, though seeing them popped off is like watching fireworks during the day (it breaks the monotony). Any help or sources on this is greatly appreciated. — cygnis insignis17:01, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
I am traumatised by articles like this at the best of time - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bus_routes_in_Perth,_Western_Australia - the most recent edit accentuates such trauma... not sure whether there any watchers of this ever quieter page as to whether an admin or other might consider such a format is really in the WP:NOT territory of similar principles... The utilisation of such information in that manner seems to echo soccer pages for some south east asian countries - every basic principle of wikipedia seems to be inverted. JarrahTree14:30, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
ah somnolent and slumbering masses of diligent editors ever hard working and incapable of being distracted, perhaps large WP:NOTGUIDE is so passe on this godforsaken fishbowl...that no one cares any more JarrahTree23:37, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
and have real life, and requirements in the real world, that require inordinate amount of time doing things other than wikipedia editing, sad JarrahTree10:00, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
yes [1] - maybe I should duck down and go quietly, it is just seeing a very large addition of that material to the articles as was done last night seemed undue... JarrahTree00:02, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes, we have a style guide, and should follow it rather than Transperth's (remember what this stuff looked like prior to a couple of years ago? [2], [3]). - Evad37[talk]06:14, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't think it's entriely clear that it's a wikt:directory, except in the vague sense that its a listing of a certain type of thing, like every other list article on Wikipedia. And WP:CSC specifically allows lists where the items are individually non-notable. It's shouldn't be listing the time schedules, or turn-by-turn directions, or other minutia, just the significant details for each item.It is common enough to have lists of bus routes (see Category:Lists of bus routes and subcats), and is often a result of or suggestion at AfDs per WP:BUSOUTCOMES. So perhaps a discussion at a wider venue would be appropriate if you think such pages aren't appropriate as lists.Though the section 'Renumbered and withdrawn bus routes' probably isn't needed. There doesn't seem any logical basis for the "since 2014" restriction, nor any practical way to have a complete list in this section. And it is a bit on the trivial side of things. - Evad37[talk]14:06, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
anyone most welcome - a range of activities - including the opportunity to speak with visiting WikiData expert Andy Mabbett
and a marvelous opportunity to meet fellow wikipedians
Local editors should be aware that the 1944 scare during second world war is being worked upon the GA process for the article Western_Australian_emergency_of_March_1944 by the Australian cohort of milhist editors. In a lot of cases the details might have 'tothersiders making claims about things west australian that might need local tweaks.
Please help the process - and clarify or help editors who are not local. It is a marvelous opportunity for editors who do not venture into other states histories, to see how WA was a focus of attention in the latter parts of the 2ww.
For the newer and more adventurous editors, the more serious issue was the Western_Australian_emergency_of_March_1942 as a lot more was enacted and done on the ground, however the article in appearance is the opposite end of the Feature 1944 article, it is a mere stub in comparison. The fact that there is now more material in easily available sources about the actions of 1942 here in Western Australia.
As the project is concerned there is thanks to the Oz milhist cohort for improving WA history content - specially Nick-D who started the 1944 article. JarrahTree23:20, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
There's an ongoing discussion about rolling out lists of heritage sites at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian historic places, following on from the earlier discussion at WP:AWNB. Having been through these sorts of discussions with WA people before, it'd be useful to establish if we can find a nationally consistent way of doing this now, rather than ploughing through and having a bunch of arguments down the line - feedback there would be appreciated. The Drover's Wife (talk) 20:55, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi, I just posted at the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian historic places discussion that I think it would not be a good idea to try to discuss, right now, all the issues that would be involved in setting up list-articles to cover all of Western Australia. These issues would include scope (whether to cover state-level sites only or not), regions (how to partition list-articles by geographical areas of WA), formatting of tables (which could depend on WA data fields available) and more. It's a pretty long post, sorry, at the bottom of this permalink version of that Talk page. I want to do Queensland first, and I think that only sometime later might it be productive to talk about list-articles for WA. Not to hide anything, I don't mean to complain about past stuff, but I did mention some recent/past disagreement about the Fremantle historic sites list-article, and I do think the fact of disagreement and/or incomplete discussion there is valid reason not to want to impose new stuff on WA editors right now. WA editors, like any editors, are welcome to watch and participate in the discussion now, and/or in a narrower discussion about Queensland. --Doncram (talk) 06:28, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Kimberley
A new article on the heritage listing of the West Kimberley some years ago has appeared (with thanks to Kerry Raymond for her considerable effort to make sure that such an amazing listing has an article).
It would be appreciated if others can have a look, as there might be some inter-relationship with already existing article on the kimberley - so any extra eyes would be appreciated - thank you. JarrahTree15:53, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
If this how we are going to approach Indigenous culture then we are doing harm, that whole article is as politely offensive as possible while being the perfect example of how not to dump Australian Government databases licensed under cc-by into Wikipedia it make a mockery of the efforts of every contributor to neutral, factual. It should be deleted. Gnangarra16:48, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Glad I didn't notice the offensive parts, well nothing more than the usual air of apologetics from a source like that. I agree that content should not be used as a text dump, although there are good leads for article expansion it at the very least forks from existing articles, is in an inappropriate tone, and swamps the legitimate content. cygnis insignis17:18, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm trying to clean it up but its not anywhere an encyclopaedic article. the whole basis is just the reason for heritage listing. It does nothing well but yeah it offers a myriad of starting points yet they are so obtuse and out of sinc that given credit as being based on a cc-by page dump is outrageous. As said the perfect example of what not to do with cc-by text from government departments Gnangarra17:41, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Therein lies the rub, it is not a heritage article in reality, it is a grab all over a range of disciplines and in reality is not relevant in a historic place project - it is more a parallel reality show to existing articles. Heritage landscapes of that size (as the deleted lead sentence had: It is a huge area. It is a vast area ) really should not have single articles on wikipedia like that.
I'm in complete agreement with you. I'm just pointing you to the best place to discuss it (since it's the project that made the article), and suggest that it's a page you might be interested to keep an eye on to participate in in future considering your areas of interest. The Drover's Wife (talk) 00:33, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
The best place to talk about Western Australian topics is at Wikiproject:Western Australia its where you'll find the known to put the whole picture together, Gnangarra04:05, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Look, if you really want to focus on trying to have a turf war, do it, but it'll probably mean the issue stagnating without getting the outcome you could've obtained if you'd engaged. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:19, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
its a case of suggesting where you'll find the level of participation by knowledgable people needed to be informed about the topic and its relationships with the myriad of other topics related to the region and the state as a whole. Gnangarra09:46, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Further issues, which suggest it's really not ready for main-space:
The scope of the area is ill-defined. The first reference [6] says "The West Kimberley spans 159,609 square kilometres", but the West Kimberley's lead section says "the 420,000 square kilometre region", citing a reference [7] that says "The [unqualified] Kimberley occupies more than 420,000 square kilometres". That same reference also uses "north Kimberley", "west Kimberley" etc, suggesting that the "west Kimberley" is only part of the 420,000. The rest of West Kimberley refers variously to or describes "Kimberley", "west Kimberley", "north-west Kimberley", "central Kimberley", as if the article can't decide what its scope is.
It really needs clearer separation between description of the land itself, and the people. For example:
... obligations to relocate to particular areas for ritual business. ...
Knowledge was the primary tool used by Aboriginal people to occupy and manage the Australian continent. Aboriginal knowledge systems, which support sustainable relationships with the land, have developed through many millennia of observation, experimentation and teaching
In the Kimberley, the diversity of the biological environment is paralleled by the diversity of the cultural and linguistic environment. Linguists have shown that languages spoken north of the Fitzroy River are different from those classified as the "Pama-Nyungen" languages, spoken everywhere else on the Australian continent
Further to my above comment regarding the area that the "West Kimberley" nominally covers (420,000 km2 or 159,609 km2), I just added a {{convert}} (without changing the input value) to West Kimberley#Places of Interest; now it says:
West Kimberley is at about 19,200,000 hectares (192,000 km2) ...
yeah its a problem because the base cc text is 10 years old, date would be older and more adhoc. Region shift according to the whim of which department wants what for what connection, whether its tourism, cultural, mining, political funding. Basically its what we encounter with every region in WA there is no absolute. As for some of the other issues yes there still is a lot of sorting to do and aweful lot of governmental report writing garbage, guff and fluff that needs to be removed. Gnangarra09:46, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
November DYK
Did you know that the first publication in WA was Report of the Late Trial for Libel!!! Clarke versus MacFaul (Fremantle, 1835). Neither did I! There is so much good work in our projects, I'm amazed to find anything overlooked. My own print resources are available if anyone wants access, perhaps another fact via an index, and hope to attend another WA meetup in the future. Happy editing! — cygnis insignis04:51, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
Meetup 54
Hi folks, Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/54 will take place at the SLWA in the regular room on Wednesday evening from 17:00 I know that may be a bit early for some to get there but we'll be there for a while and like always this is a casual meeting. The reason that the meeting is on Wednesday is that Asaf Bartov is in town. Hope you all can make it Gnangarra05:11, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Defunct government departments of Western Australia
the Category:Defunct government departments of Western Australia besides the public works department, are they truly defunct most have just had names changed, or been merged in to larger departments so its not like their tasks have ceased to be done. For some they are again created with the changes of governments or need to be seen to be doing something different. Some states use former, the national level uses defunct but it also contain may state level departments. CALM became conservation and environment same people, same role just few million bucks for signage, really just smoke and mirrors exercise. These arent defunct they are just former iterations of the current department, many dont even change the under lying legislation that creates them. Gnangarra12:56, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
Article names
Interesting - for anyone interested in the current title name issues -
there are others, but this is a sense of what is currently in action
the West Australian project has recently had some hundreds of place names for articles changed by a range of IPs and today an interesting character who is basically re-naming the whole of the perth and fremantle range of articles. Usually with the same edit summary: 'dab not needed' or something similar
Interesting in that there had been generally accepted forms of naming of items and no interference or discussion to date, yet the changing has been quite extensive. Most advice from others suggest there is nothing controversial about the changing, but considering how much of the project article names have been changed, I am curious.
Most names were originally put in good faith, and yet the ip/editor(s) has been changing the whole range of specifically perth/western australian edits.
The residual parts of the discussion at the national level do not address massive undiscussed changing. Perhaps the project page will come up with no responses, in which case this is simply a FYI for this project that the landscape of naming places has been changed, under your nose, so to speak. JarrahTree00:00, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Maybe not your area or argument, but the Ip/editor(s) have been systematically misusing the 'disambig' issue to make a mess of the project. JarrahTree02:17, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
short notice /last minute - casual meetup in Perth CBD on January 28th 2019
In case you are available - meetup people - there is a 12.30 meetup of any interested wikipedians.
Apologies about the last minute nature - so it is not a formal meetup - to meet with a visiting wikipedian.
Please message here on wiki, email or phone User:JarrahTree before 10 am on the day to confirm or with any queries..
Otherwise - the initial meeting will be at the Tourist information booth at the Forrest Chase/Murray Street mall intersection.
12.30 pm Tourist Information booth Murray Street/Forrest Chase.
Looking forward to meetup with people there today - thanks for the responses (on and offline) - more news about it later!! JarrahTree02:44, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
WP 1.0 Bot Beta
Hello! Your WikiProject has been selected to participate in the WP 1.0 Bot rewrite beta. This means that, starting in the next few days or weeks, your assessment tables will be updated using code in the new bot, codenamed Lucky. You can read more about this change on the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team page. Thanks! audiodude (talk) 06:49, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Della Rae Morrison (recently created by Big iron) says that Morrison is of the Bibbulmun people, with a link to Noongar. The Bibbulmun disambiguation page also says that "Noongar ... are also known as Bibbulmun". However the Noongar article itself has no mention of Bibbulmun at all. Could someone more knowledgable on the subject please add to Noongar the appropriate words and references so that it mentions the Bibbulman. (I suspect also that the entry in the Bibbulmun page needs updating, if Bibbulman are a subset of Noongar. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:30, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
There should be some caution in conceptualising these names as labelling 'sets and subsets', as an overview that has limited usefulness and may be overly reductive. cygnis insignis10:04, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
I suspect that I didn't find it in Noongar because I did a simple text search for "Bibbulmun" - which did not find the the single-"b" spelling. So I've added "Bibbulmun" as well. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:42, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
There is a couple of good papers that seek to regularise some commonly used Nyungar/Noongar terms, and close matches don't provide a hit, making a redirect was a good idea. I could spend a week sorting the use of 'kwongan', backed by the exhaustive research of Hopper. cygnis insignis11:51, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
A new newsletter directory is out!
A new Newsletter directory has been created to replace the old, out-of-date one. If your WikiProject and its taskforces have newsletters (even inactive ones), or if you know of a missing newsletter (including from sister projects like WikiSpecies), please include it in the directory! The template can be a bit tricky, so if you need help, just post the newsletter on the template's talk page and someone will add it for you.
Primarily known as a philanthropist, the interests in mining and pastoralism seem incidental; I could make it more compliant if he sends a donation. /s cygnis insignis08:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Duncan Merrilees
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
1. responding to drama mongering rabble rousing, some interminable quibbling and willfully obtuse and pompous responses. 2. Creating content in a harmonious and collaborative environment without painting targets on fellow editors for a no-win culture war. Pick one, but 2 is harder. cygnis insignis10:57, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
significant tagging issue
Oh wise and circumspect watchers, lurkers and others - it has come to notice that a past practice of tagging a range of articles:
has WA tagged - where things actually have existed within the bounds of Perth. such as
There a range of sports and other articles that ideally need to have the tag of Perth - that do not really need a WA part at all
I am not wondering whether those participants in this ---- who do not tag at all - it is more for those who have had the courage to go to talk pages, and have looked at talk pages, and wondered what the precedents and generally accepted norms of tagging, might be.
There are a significant number of Perth tags that sit with WA tags and assessment - this query is in made in the possibility that the Perth task force may in the near future be returned to its own specific project and also subsequent assessment - requiring quite a massive change, if there is no objection.
It's also so lot deeper the former 8 perth competition sat at the top level, that are many other levels of competitions and bodies that are sanctioned within that umbrella. It's been this way for a long time as sanctions(suspensions) affect all level in which the player could play, and that each player must be cleared to play from one level to another. Yes WAFL, WANFL, WAFC are actually WA not Perth. Gnangarra11:16, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
Thanks both mitch and gnang - the issue is that there are sports that were more 'perth' than wa - and from what has been said so far - the way to make the distinction then is the actual naming of the competitions as much as the actual geographic context. JarrahTree11:43, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
Only the 8 teams(pre peel) playing in the league competition were considered the pinnacle of the sport in WA, the reserves & colts were lower feeder grades of that but not exclusively so. These teams were Perth based but interconnected to teams across the state sometimes a specific defined zones, other times by various connections. Historically I think the whole competition sits better under the WA project than being solely Perth. Gnangarra12:10, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
City of Canning
The digitization equipment has its first set of dates Wikipedia:WikiClubWest/City of Canning, there will initially be information sessions covering, Canning Heritage Collection, Wikimedia projects, and Digitization through May & June. This will be followed with an all day event in the school holidays on the 10th July at the Studio in Riverton which will be open to public to bring down items for digitization. I have also requested the room for our meetup on the 21st July, though this is yet to be confirmed. You are welcome to any or all sessions additional help and knowledge would be appreciated sign up on the page. If you'd like to actively participate in the presentations let me know on the weekend, this would be a good opportunity to experience presenting on our favorite addiction. Gnangarra10:33, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
Woodloes Homestead
I created Woodloes Homestead specifically to use for demonstration of editing during the Information sessions with the City of Canning. As such I ask that despite the wealth of information out there it get sleft as is at the moment. I went there on sunday to grab a couple of current photos which will be uploaded and added during the events. Gnangarra07:40, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Meetup, workshops, and digitizing events
Kaya, its all happening add Wikipedia:WikiProject Perth/2019 plan to your watchlist to see what is being planned & scheduled for the events in May, June & July as they are filling fast, not in the WikiClubWest schedule is a Conference in Sydney for WMAU on the 15/16 June.
You're welcome to attend any or all of these events, for Toodyay there is space in my car as soon as I have all the details I'll let you know. Gnangarra03:06, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Could you clarify "note that in the June, the WikiClubWest schedule is a Conference in Sydney for WMAU on the 15/16 June" (quoted from this version) please. A specific link might help. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:09, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
I did original say not in the WCW schedule/plan is a conference for WMAU in Sydney, there is a link for an event at University of Sydney 12-14 at https://www.wow2019.net/ the WMAU event which takes place 15 & 16th will be posted soon. Both events included content from WA, are free, and open to the public. Gnangarra12:27, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
Category for people with plaques on St Georges Terrace?
Perhaps, but there's already a discussion happening there, and I don't want to fragment it. Rangasyd, as the originator of the discussion, may chose to move it here. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:46, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
Conversation moved from User talk:Mitch Ames
Hi there. Obviously you think that what I'm doing doesn't comply with MOS:SEAOFBLUE. Instead of reverting, perhaps we have a civil discussion here. Cheers. Rangasyd (talk) 05:51, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
This version includes "Perth, Western Australia" in both the infobox and the first paragraph. "Perth" and Western Australia" are separate links. Strictly speaking they aren't adjacent, because the comma is not linked, but I suggest that reader won't notice that - to the casual eye, the links are "next to each other so that they look like a single link", so MOS:SEAOFBLUE suggests "using a single, more specific link instead", which I've done. Is there any specific reason why you think we should link "Perth" and "Western Australia" separately? Given the context ("a suburb of Perth") is the reader likely to want to go straight to the WA article?
I could just unlink "Western Australia" instead, because Perth, Western Australia is a redirect.
A possible alternative is "... a suburb of Perth, the capital city of Western Australia" but that seems unnecessarily verbose.
Where a school (or anything else) is located in a suburb of Perth, that should be listed as being located in [suburb name], a suburb of Perth, Western Australia (to distinguish it from a suburb of (other) Perths. The casual reader may not understand that Claremont (for example) is a suburb of Perth, Western Australia as opposed to being based in the Pilbara.
I'm not a fan of 'the capital city of....' It's verbose.
As to unlinking Western Australia, there is no linking of Australia in the infobox or in the lede, as it is considered verbose. For this reason, the linking to Western Australia is considered relevant. This probably only relevant in SA and WA.
I still disagree that it is necessary to link WA separately to Perth, and contrary to SEAOFBLUE - the link to either Perth (primary topic) or Perth, Western Australia is clearly the one in WA, whether you're looking at the school article or the Perth article. This is true independently of whether "Australia" is linked anywhere.
@Roy McCoy: commas made me think of you, so I'm wondering if you can help us out here: is a comma enough to indicate there are two links? I think that is the question. cygnis insignis18:28, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
The West Australian - Paywall
Kaya, please note that The West Australian is now behind a paywall, finding alternative sources may be necessary. Gnangarra04:34, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Ugh! I spoke to him not so long ago, he was the same as ever and performing that evening. One of the last Perthonalities. cygnis insignis06:18, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
@Gnangarra: Sounds good! Do you have some more info about the structure of the day? Will we be e.g. working on content, walking around, hanging out at a cafe? (I mean, not that I'm not bringing my computer.) SamWilson23:56, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
An important member of the Western Australian editing community has just died - [8] also know as User:Morethangrass - archivist and historian.
Condolences from Wiki Club West to her family and friends, hopefully more public information about her career will eventuate. JarrahTree14:07, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
On going this week - another Graham_Farmer; local users might want to join in the discussion at Talk:Graham_Farmer regarding the name of the article.
For the last month or so, I've been slowly working on this article, to get it from the way it was before to how it is now. My reasoning can be found on the talk page. I'm pretty happy with it now ... if anybody wants to take a look at it, feel free ... especially with images! Gnangarra, it seems like you uploaded quite a few some time ago ... Graham8710:28, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
Nice work. Most of the images are good, although perhaps someone will agree with me that there are too many with the horizon at the mid-point. cygnis insignis01:44, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
Could somebody fix the OCR'd text on the newspaper article ""Busselton celebrates its 100th birthday" (if not all of it, at least some relevant bits)? I've taken a bash at it but it's very hard to read for me. I'd most like to know exactly *what* they were celebrating in April 1932 .. knowing that would be kinda helpful for the Busselton history section. Graham8712:30, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Unfortunately that doesn't solve some weird date discrepancies (lots of refs say the party landed in 1834, like the ADB), but it's very interesting, nonetheless. I'll ask around down here. Graham8715:51, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
I ought to have been aware of that transcript, and wish it appeared on Google. The description of the country is one I have heard, "The country as we advanced improved rapidly; the ground on which we trod was a vivid green, unsullied with burnt sticks and blackened grass trees", which is an important reference to the ecological history. cygnis insignis02:43, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
Nobody I've talked to has any idea why 8 April was chosen for the date of the centenary, the "Outstation on the Vasse" book has nothing on it either, and the Busselton Historical Society would normally be able to help me but they can't access their main building (the Butter Factory Museum) because of construction works. I can now only assume that it was a date chosen for convenience if anything else ... if July 1832 is taken to be the establishment date of Busselton (which the "Outstation" book does, as it's the date that John Bussell got his land grant), who would want to go to a beach landing re-enactment in July? I've also added the above-mentioned quote to the article, among other things. Graham8712:23, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
Noongar sub-category for places with Noongar sites
That's a pretty broad categorisation — Agreed. My inclination is to simply remove the Noongar category from the articles, but perhaps there is a specific reason to keep it. Hughesdarren, who added the category, may be able suggest something. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:38, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Please do not remove noongar category. This is not the place to exhaustively take a large page wandering through all the issues, if there is a matter regarding 'defining characteristic' and if there is some concern as to how that fits with or doesnt fit with places of significance, this will unnecessarily overflow like similar discussions.
Some imagination is required -
aboriginal sites - occur in such a way they are not linear measurable 'items' or places, but can be in an area adjacent or nearby, depending upon the attributions given to the site, and of what is considered to give the area its significance, and in some cases depending upon the nature of the story relating to the place or area, is only partially known in public or administrative terms. In articles it is very unlikely that there will be specifics given.
noongar - as a defining characteristic, similarly - dictionary and legalistic metrics, in most cases are deliberately broad and in view of what possibly incorporate a range of stories and sites that can spread around a lake and its environs, and in many cases well beyond the officially designated sites or areas to be significantly larger in size.
Unless you actually can show an appreciation of NTT cases and documents, and any of the indigenous studies texts, or older anthropological texts, that explain the nature of what is happening when significance is discussed, I strongly advise against 'inventing' definitions of what might be 'thought' here on this page as to what might be understood to be components at the sites or adjacent places.
My understanding of "country" is not the issue here, our understanding and following of WP:CAT, and in particular WP:CATDEF, is. Could you please link/quote the relevant references that "commonly and consistently define" those specific lakes as "Noongar" (or, probably better, some sub-category thereof). Mitch Ames (talk) 12:43, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Possible sub-cat (assuming there are refs to support it): "Places over which Noongar people have native title"? (This could be quite a large category, I suspect.) Mitch Ames (talk)
No - missing the point, despite the length of the explanation here and on your talk page - native title is a totally different concept and legal framework from what the idea of a 'noongar' or 'sites' - they are not necessarily contiguous or in any way necessarily connected, but they may be... You have to get a handle on the explanation which has been given at your talk page - the notion of noongar understanding of 'country' may have lands and things that are in the native title area, but there is not necessarily always a specconnection, and in'country' you may have identified sites (and equally important sites that are not publicly identified), ... JarrahTree13:01, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Despite, or perhaps because of, the length of your posts, I could not find, in those posts, a specific link to or quote from a references that "commonly and consistently define" those specific lakes as "Noongar" (per WP:CATDEF and WP:DEFINING) , nor any specific suggestion (with appropriate reference) for an appropriate sub-category. No doubt they exist - so if someone could actually provide them, we could resolve the issue. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:40, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Exactly, and why you are also missing the point there are not specific links for your way of thinking, there are things in real life that cannot fit with you way of thinking, simple as that... JarrahTree00:50, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Apologies, following a conversation in real life with another west australian editor, I think your first proposal to remove (for now) is appropriate, sorry to have responded the way I have done. The whole thing needs a major re-think, as there is a good argument to potentially totally re-work categories related to the issues. Some other time, it possibly will require a major re-think of all australian indigenous project article organisation, but not everyone is into category organisation... Enjoy the cool weather... (3 degrees predicted tonight) JarrahTree07:50, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
FYI: I have restored the Noongar category, as these sites have cultural significance and that was already written in the article before the category was removed. As I stated above Noongar/Aboriginal is synonymous in the Southwest with each other, if theres more precise community name like Wadjuk, or Menang then use that as the category which should be subcats of Noongar/Nyungar/Nyungah/Nyoongar. Also there is no separation between country, place, knowledge, and culture like the way western methods express each in isolation... Gnangarra12:40, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
I still assert that WP:CATDEF requires some evidence (e.g. WP:RS) that "commonly and consistently define" those lakes as "Noongar". Or more likely, as previously mentioned, we need:
an explicit statement in the article that the lakes are Category:Places of Noongar significance (not just that there are Aboriginal sites around the lake, of that Noongar are the traditional owners, as the article currently states, because the jump from "Aboriginal sites" or "Noongar land" to "place of Noongar significance" is WP:SYN in the absence of an explicit, sourced, statement)
and/or a more specific subcategory - not just Wadjuk, Menang etc (although they could also be appropriate) but, for example, "Places with Noongar sites" or "Places on Noongar country" (both of which would be large categories, which isn't necessarily a problem)
Noongar/Aboriginal is synonymous in the Southwest with each other — Even if you provided an RS to support that statement, the jump from "southwest" to "Noongar" is still WP:SYN in the absence of something more specific in the article.
Note that I'm not disputing the significance of the lakes or the validity of Noongar culture, I'm simply trying to find a way of complying with Wikipedia's guidelines, which is what we are supposed to be doing here. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:04, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
perhaps start at Noongar top right corner is a map based on Tindales work(as much as I dislike his work) it very clear as to what is Noongar Country, actually here it it is. The jump isn't from Southwest to Noongar its from Aboriginal to Noongar for people from the southwest. Gnangarra13:30, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Is the plan to put all places in the south west / Noongar country in Category:Noongar culture? All places with Noongar sites nearby? If not, what specifically about Wagin Lake warrants its inclusion? Possibly the solution here is to simply add a (referenced) statement to Wagin Lake noting its meaning in Noongar culture. (Parkeyerring Lake already says "The Wait-Jen trail ...passes by the side of the lake ... follows an ancient dreamtime track taken by the Wagyl.") Mitch Ames (talk) 12:21, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
only sites with a cultural connection, other site will be places based on Noongar names, ultimately that will be broken down to smaller commonalities such as place base on fire, history, or warning like Katanning which means take note this be the place of the heart which part of the Seven Sisters story. Knowing how people hate too many small cats being made at once I make big ones then break them down with their being over 5,000 places using noongar names. Lots to do but big general categories will be the start point. Wag-in means "...means here is the site of the foot tracks from when the emu sat down.[11] ultimately it'll be in category:Noongar placenames related to the EmuGnangarra13:32, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
It wouldnt be all places in the southwest because some arent Noongar name, and others are in the wheatbelt, peel and Midwest not the southwest, and place like Busselton, Bunbury, Augusta, Denmark, Esperance, arent noongar names. Wait-jen trail also means Emu-feet, oh looook every one be speaking Nyoongar english(SW AU english), quick take this to WP:AWNB and the discussion on AU english Gnangarra13:40, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
just in case we did not realise
Australian editors have significant positions relative to the early beginnings of Wikipedia...
In the past little while this Busselton resident has created Category:Suburbs of Busselton and its relevant articles. Could somebody add nearby suburbs, directional indicators, etc. to the infoboxes as required? I don't mind red links, if necessary. I presume the locality map linked from this page would be a reasonable starting point. Thanks! Graham8713:19, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Request for information on WP1.0 web tool
Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.
We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma (talk) 04:25, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Perth article-class categories
Howdy,
Was just browsing deep the depths of Wikipedia maintenance areas and came across Special:WantedCategories. It essentially is an automatic list of non-existent categories that have pages categorized to them. Since WP:REDNOT is a thing, figured I'd ask if this taskforce would prefer the categories to be created (which you can obviously do yourselves) or if you want all the members to be unlinked from the categories (which I or anyone else with AWB can do fairly easily). List per below:
Perth was a project for a very short time, got inserted into western australia as a task force, and a number of times in the last year or two there has been discussion about reviving the Perth project for a number of reasons,it would be great if a fellow perth enthusiast could fix this up so we could get on with a project - I have very limited access to the internat over the next x number of days, another persons help would be appreciated in facilitating the resurrection of the project - rather than task froce if at all possible. JarrahTree10:48, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
Since I'll be AWBing for a while anyway, is the naming convention ok? Just seems odd to be "X-Class the Perth task force articles" — IVORKTalk23:00, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
New, presumed useful reference website for WA history and culture: "Launched today, Culture WA is a digital portal, combining collections from the State Records Office, the WA Museum, the State Library and from next year, the Art Gallery of WA."[1] Mitch Ames (talk) 11:52, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
The search function seems to just replicate and combine existing searches/results. The features look like they'll be more useful for expanding/referencing articles, e.g. compare their C. Y. O'Connor with our C. Y. O'Connor. Shame they're claiming copyright / all rights reserved over everything (including public domain images). - Evad37[talk]10:26, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
That is why its not even worth looking at for wikipedia purposes (evad's observation re copyright) - basically useless, not designed for collaboration or anything that might suggest that there is a capacity to engage partnerships of any sort JarrahTree10:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
oh somnolent beast
while the eastern seaboard of Australia burns, the great western woodlands are alight, hindering a free flow across the nullabor, and causing unbelievable over-population of places like coolgardie, and caiguna - and there is no article to join the horrible (in affect, not composition ) - 2019–20_Australian_bushfire_season - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Australian_bushfire_season#Western_Australia - surely there is more gripe and grunt in the caiguna and coolgardie carparks than usual ? -
All the more reason to do a "...season in Western Australia" article and stop trying to cram everything into the monster-sized main article. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:33, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
The article for Monika Kos was in AfD last year and it was redirect to the former programme Today Tonight. For now it should have enough coverage to restoring its original context in addition of her new role for 10 News First Perth. No idea where's of the start point to discuss its original context because it tas converted into redirect per previous AfD before. Shinjiman ⇔ ♨00:58, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
I've just restored the original content and added the additional role as a anchor on 10 for now. Just feel free to add the additional information there. Shinjiman ⇔ ♨02:26, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
set of mayoral stubs untouched
It would be good to see if any other editors on the WA project have opinions as to the status of the articles:
I think we might have had discussions about 8 years ago about notability of mayors (or not) - I am not sure... JarrahTree00:23, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Suburban council mayors have generally not fared well at AfD as a general rule. I tend to think this is often a good thing - there's usually not much in the way of existent sources beyond the obvious, many of them fade into obscurity right after their mayoral term, and they can raise some unpleasant BLP issues. First impressions would be that I'd support keeping Tagliaferri in any context because he's unusually prominent/notable (Fremantle mayors tend to draw a bit more attention than your average anyway IMHO - it's more equivalent to a major regional city), probably wouldn't keep Kenyon and could be persuaded either way about Howlett (seems to be a bit more high-profle than average). The Drover's Wife (talk) 10:17, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Many thanks to evad and other sundry editors who have noted the restoration of the Perth project and assisted in resurrecting the components.
This now means that subjects relative to and locations of Perth no longer need WA or WA-importance - and is now like Melbourne or Sydney, where there is a separation very clear.
There is no need to unnecessary discussion relating to the context of the change - the scope of the project is within the current metropolitan area of Perth. Historically the Perth Project lasted a very short time before being turned into a task force with no way to evaluate material, now there is a process where the doubling up of WA and Perth can be removed. Thanks again Dave ! JarrahTree10:09, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure I really agree with complete separation of Perth project from WA project parameters. Everything in Perth's scope is within WA's scope, much like everything within WA's scope is within Australia's scope. And entirely removing the connection where |Perth-importance= implies WA-importance, if |WA-importance= is not set, would immediately rate banners using that structure as "unknown" for WA-importance. I've made some changes to the banner's sandbox that allows importance to be set separately for WA and Perth, but maintains the Perth implies WA-importance connection – and tracks such banners with a to-be-created Category:WikiProject Western Australia articles with implicit importance. I.e project tagging remains the same:
It is very good that you are not exactly in full agreement of the idea, I simply take it from the example of Sydney and Melbourne - as far as I can see they are separate. I think it would encourage a range of aspirations of editors wanting to increase participation and involvement with material specific to the Perth metro area. Thanks for what you have done so far, that is appreciated. JarrahTree05:17, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
proposal - after the very good work done so far - I would propose that the Perth items have the WA items removed (over time) - close look at Sydney and Melbourne - there is no need to keep the WA project tied to the items... JarrahTree05:05, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
This evening at the WikiClubWest Riff meetup we were experimenting with new (unlabelled) maps of the regions:
New Great Southern
Existing Great Southern for comparison
Just putting them here for interests' sake. I just replaced the old one on Peel (Western Australia) as an example, but feel free to revert. I sort of think it'd be best to make these maps with mapframes and vector data, but that's more than an evening's work... :-)
I didn't realise we could do CC-BY data there too! That's great to know. I'll investigate that some more then; would probably be a better way to do it. SamWilson00:24, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
@Evad37, The Drover's Wife, and JarrahTree: We figured it out last night at Riff, and now have the following maps and added them to the region articles:
SamWilson 21:31, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
For whatever reason it better to look at and check the new maps inside the articles they have been placed, rather than in the commons item, as strange things happen there (it seems) JarrahTree23:37, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Evad - Becuase they are dynamic and adjustable for overlays and other devices -I am sure in time there are lots of things we can do with the maps - thanks for the example. JarrahTree10:18, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
