Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Thailand/Archives/2012

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Thailand. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

WikiWomen's History Month

Hi everyone. March is Women's History Month and I'm hoping a few folks here at WP:Thailand will have interest in putting on events (on and off wiki) related to women's roles in Thailand's history, society and culture. We've created an event page on English Wikipedia (please translate!) and I hope you'll find the inspiration to participate. These events can take place off wiki, like edit-a-thons, or on wiki, such as themes and translations. Please visit the page here: WikiWomen's History Month. Thanks for your consideration and I look forward to seeing events take place! SarahStierch (talk) 21:37, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Question regarding the bypass canal of Ko Kret

Please take a look at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#Date of this 17th century map of Siam?. Thanks. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:45, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Naming of tambon articles.

Petebutt has started a requested move for Mae Suai Subdistrict. Since the naming of tambon articles has never been discussed in detail, could interested editors help weigh in on the issue? Thank you. --Paul_012 (talk) 06:24, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Muay Thai and boxing professionals: How to name future articles about the various individuals

Would it be unthinkable for an article to be named/renamed

• Buakaw (fighter) or Sombat "Buakaw" Banchamek?
• Other suggestions?

(I have no problem with the articles mentioning their various fight names.)

If the following names (from this link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Thai_Muay_Thai_practitioners) are not the legal names ( name on governmental I.D. cards), then we might need to rethink how to name articles in the future. (It seems that fighters on Thai teams, have fight names that include the name of their teams (the gyms where they are employed/bound by contract):

Buakaw Por. Pramuk

Naruepol Fairtex

Yodsanklai Fairtex

Kaokor Galaxy

Zaza Sor Aree

Sudsakorn Sor Klinmee --Computadorcorriente (talk) 00:15, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Using their (legal) personal names would mostly go against WP:COMMONNAME, I think. In Thailand at least the fight names you mention are indeed their most recognisable names. I understand that these may change as one switches gyms, which may cause problems in some cases, but mostly they should be okay, if they are commonly known as such in English. --Paul_012 (talk) 14:16, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I am not of your opinion. "Samson Dutch Boy Gym" is an article title that is problematic in more ways than one. One solution might be "Samson Phantasi" (his nickname and his last name). This will differentiate him from other "Samson"s (which I believe might include a world champion female boxer). In this way we avoid having to deal with the numerous changes of employment during his career.

By your reasoning then perhaps the article about Siriporn Thaweesuk should be renamed or redirected to Samson Sor Siriporn? (And to make things a little bit more complicated, I seem to remember that the "Sor Siriporn" name is not a result of her own first name, but rather the name of the prison officer who was responsible for the training of Samson.)

• And how are we to defaultsort names such as Buakaw Fairtex? By the nickname, or by the name of the employer (Fairtex)? --Computadorcorriente (talk) 11:21, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

"Samson Sor Siriporn" actually appears to be the title of the corresponding article at the Thai Wikipedia. I do understand that such names don't work well in an English-language context, but that is not ours to judge. WP:STAGENAME says, "The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not their 'real' name." I think it applies directly to these cases. If Samson Dutch Boy Gym is known that way to most people, we should follow the usage. I don't think it's any worse than 50 Cent anyway. If we were to use persons' real names for article titles, we would have to rename a lot of articles about celebrities such as Lady Gaga. As for category sorting, such stage names should be simply sorted as they appear. (Lady Gaga isn't sorted as "Gaga, Lady".) --Paul_012 (talk) 14:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia in English. "Sor" and "por" might give meaning to Thai people. Please entertain the idea of these hypothetical titles

• Buakaw (Employee of Fairtex) as an article for stagename Buakaw Fairtex
• Bonecrusher (Trainee of Pramuk) as an article for thai stagename Bonecrusher Por Pramuk

In the case of "Buakaw" ex-trainee of Pramuk, i think that an adequate article title (maybe the best) would be Buakaw (ex-trainee of Pramuk). The future name of that article on Thai wikipedia, will possibly not be renamed, I dare to speculate. Note: Buakaw has vowed never to fight for Pramuk Gym again, and he has stated the name of his current trainer (not Pramuk). Please explain if you think that the "Por Pramuk" is part of Buakaw's current stage name.

• Buakaw Benchamak (Trainee of Pramuk) might make more sense on our wikipedia?
• Buakaw Benchamak would be equivalent of the article Changpuek Kiatsongrit; stagename plus last name. (Changpuek's Thai Id card has a different first name, I know because I and others have seen his ID card.) I dare say that Kiatsongrit is not a part of Changpuek's (most famous) stagename. So maybe that article should be renamed Changpuek Sitpholek Gym in Pattaya et cetera, according to your arguments.
• And please note that there is an unanswered question about "por" in the Buakaw discussion, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Buakaw_Banchamek#Por. --Computadorcorriente (talk) 22:28, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

We now have a precedent for using nickname plus family name (of the fighter). (The article about Buakaw was renamed yesterday: Buakaw Banchamek.)

Please do not change the name of Samson Dutch Boy Gym, until we have rectified the "Fairtex"es and "Galaxy"s, because "Dutch Boy Gym" might be the best example of how unencyclopedic these names can get, when practices are not questioned. --Computadorcorriente (talk) 23:01, 25 March 2012 (UTC) (Note: Fixed typo. --Paul_012 (talk))

Well, Buakaw Benchamek does appear to be what he's going by now; it seems to have become mainstream enough, so no problems with that. Each article should be named on a case-by-case basis, though. There may not be a one-size-fits-all solution that works for every Muay Thai practitioner. Nickname + surname should not be used arbitrarily if it has not been used elsewhere. ("Samson Phantasi" turns up zero Google hits.) I'm not sure what exactly are the aspects you find problematic, but, to use Khaosai Galaxy as an example, I don't think there is a more appropriate article title, since this is how he is known worldwide. --Paul_012 (talk) 02:26, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

PS Some sources appear to substitute Por. and Sor. with P. and S., etc. --Paul_012 (talk) 02:26, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

So how do you want to defaultsort? "Galaxy" is not his last name/family name!

You said "Each article should be named on a case-by-case basis, though." I am not sure what you mean by that. Wikipedia is governed by guidelines. If we don't have one in place, then maybe one can be created.

If the names you are proposing are so fine and dandy, then why aren't the "Sor" and "Por" names used in the olympics, in regard to the boxers from Thailand? Maybe because it is an oddity that functions adequately on posters in Thailand, as well as in other forums in Thailand.

Does anyone know if the printed version of encyclopedia Britannica has an article about Por Pramuk, Buakaw.

Should the defaultsort of Samson Dutch Boy Gym prioritize the 2nd or the 3rd or the 4th name?

Wouldn't it be correct to say that "Samson" is his stage name, while "Dutch Boy Gym" is not his name, but rather an attached name to show affiliation? --171.98.3.81 (talk) 19:09, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

In light of the recent blocking of the original poster as a sock puppet, it has become apparent that this discussion is serving only to waste other editors' time. --Paul_012 (talk) 02:06, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually there are some problems with the way we are naming articles about boxers and muay thai practitioners from Thailand. Now we have an article about a muay thai practitioner, where the title of the article is a name that he never has used in a fight (and which also is not his real name)—a name which he will not use for his next fight, acording to the article "Buakaw confirms Thai Fight participation" (in yesterday's Bangkok Post):

"Muay Thai superstar Sombat Banchamek—better known as Buakaw Por Pramuk ..."

"The boxer said at a press conference that he would stick with the name Buakaw for the Thai Fight but may not use the name of the boxing camp Por Pramuk."

How can we deal with all of this? For one we can recognize that there are not too many people participating in this discussion. So if one administrator makes up his/her mind about how things should be done on this subject, then we will be stuck with this persons ideas for a months or years. (And when people have strong opinions, it might also be interesting to see who is/has been bringing new references to this discussion.)

• Now the fighter is scheduled to fight with the fight name "Buakaw" (for his fight in April), "but may not use the name ... Por Pramuk". Comment: The original post seemed to be about how to name these articles in an encyclopedic manner, without having to change the title of any single article, again and again and again. Maybe disambiguation pages for Buakaw, and [[Somchai] and Somsak and Fairtex could alleviate some of the challenges. And then when the fighter has a new fight name, then we just add the fight name to the disambigution page for the common denominator fight name, such as "Samson" or Buakaw (Buakaw Banchamek/ Buakaw Por Pramuk/Buakaw)

If anyone has any better references, then please bring'em on. --124.121.38.244 (talk) 19:25, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe this format can work for these types of articles, when the fight name (without "Por Pramuk" etc.) is more famous than the real name:

Sombat Banchamek (Fight name Buakaw). Or Buakaw (Sombat Banchamek).

Possibly we could defaultsort these by the "common denominator fight names", such as "Buakaw". --124.121.38.244 (talk) 19:34, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

"Por"

The talk page for Buakaw Por Pramuk has since year 2007, asked the question of the meaning of "Por". Can someone give an answer here (or there)? --171.98.3.81 (talk) 18:52, 1 April 2012 (UTC) In most cases, it spells "P." in either English or Thai abbreviations, and is pronounced with a "Harvard R." --Pawyilee (talk) 16:18, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

English in Thailand

Hi. I've started a discussion at Talk:Hua Hin District#English used in Thailand? regarding the variety of English used in Thailand. It is specifically regarding some changes to that article, but it would be good to get a general consensus, as I have seen changes made both ways in various articles related to Thailand. This may well be a better place for it. So, how should we interpret WP:ENGVAR in relation to the English used in Thai-related articles? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:15, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

And specifically, does anyone have any good sources for the appropriate Thai English spelling of "kilometer"/"kilometre"? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:29, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

It should be "kilometre", for example as has been noted on the Hua Hin page re. today's Bangkok Post [1] GeoffreySuchart (talk) 14:55, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks, but The Bangkok Post is inconsistent - eg this article uses "kilometer". Maybe we need a Google fight - give me a few minutes. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:22, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Google fight results...

• Bangkok Post, "kilometer" = 3,400 results, "kilometre" = 63,800 results
• The Nation, "kilometer" = 579 results, "kilometre" = 9,070 results

That sounds good enough to me - "kilometre" it is. (Thinking about it more, I wonder if the "kilometre" spelling comes from French, and neither British nor American English - France has has diplomatic contact with Thailand for a very long time). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:32, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

It's in Canadian English, not sure about Australian or NZ or South African....and also "centre" instead of "center". There is somewhere an an "official Thai English" manual/styleguide for use in international trade and diplomacy; I had a copy as supervisor of a world bank conference's wordprocessing pool....subtle differences exist in official spellings used by governments whether the national language is English or not; Philippines and Taiwanese English is subtly different from US English and Malaysian English even differs from Singaporean on a few points....where to find such an official style guide I know, maybe the Ministry of International Trade, whatever it's actually called.Skookum1 (talk) 04:17, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Message: "I hate you"

On my talk page: Message: Hi. I'm Thai, and I hate you. I think you know why. :) --125.24.37.243 (talk) 14:32, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Not really, but suspect it may relate to British-born Abhisit's Palace name & its ancestral meaning of "Medical Professional"; & to His Britannic-Majesty-Rama VI's acts to make Siamese Reigns, Houses, Surnames & Civil-service ranks toe a European line – seemingly with advice on Indic roots & orthography from HM's Royal Council of Pandits, predecessor to RIT and its RTGS. The dispute first irrupted at Abhist_Talk with User:Sodacan's objecting to tying "Abhist" to 19th-centry "Privilege" (to exercise a Royally-granted monopoly of designated commodities -- such as deer-hides, a practice going back to time immemorial, seeminly reincarnated in the likes of CP Group.) He also objected to linking the first Palace-named Vejjajiva's (obsolete) civil-service nomenclature to Thai for "courtier," which at the time was being used by the better-educated Red Shirts as a synonym for "invisible hand." (Modern civil-service nomenclature relates to Thai for Servant/Service.) Some invisible hand has since had all references to Palace and House Names removed from the Web, and blocked from WebCite®. Not being Thai, I don't know why this must remain invisible. --Pawyilee (talk) 03:28, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Naming of tambon articles (2)

Please see Talk:Ban Pong, Wiang Pa Pao#Requested move. --Paul_012 (talk) 08:59, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

So we now have Mae Suai Subdistrict and Ban Pong, Chiang Rai as the result of two discussions. Not really consistent, but the discussions barely saw input anyway. I'm now reluctant as to whether we these can be regarded as setting precedent. --Paul_012 (talk) 15:51, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Project tagger run

A heads-up that I'm going to request a WikiProject tagger run for articles in the categories listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Thailand/List of categories. I've gone through the list but if anyone spots mistakes or has objections please do raise them. Note that I've left off some subcategories which I think are unlikely to be in the project's interest (mostly relating to specific sporting events or people who were only marginally related, e.g. died in Thailand). --Paul_012 (talk) 17:36, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Ampon Tangnoppakul

I've just started an article on Ampon Tangnoppakul, a lese-majeste convict who died on 8 May in prison, causing some controversy. I've updated the article from a number of English-language sources, but Thai sources would be useful too if anyone has the language-savvy to help. Cheers, Khazar2 (talk) 18:55, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Questioning of neutrality in some articles related to Thailand

I believe that some of the articles here should be written with some more viewpoints - especially more from how thai people see something. I think that the articles related to thailand should include more viewpoints from more people. For example: the wikipedia article on Bangkok lists the names of major INTERNATIONAL hospitals such as Bumrungrad international hospital, but does not mention awesome government hospitals such as Siriraj Hospital and King Chulalongkorn Memorial hospital. Also, for many articles, wikipedia does not appear to trust the thai government - (for example: "The thai government claims blah blah blah..."). Yet, wikipedia appears to trust western sources (such as the media) as if every statement by a western source is true and unbiased. I understand that wikipedia wants neutral articles, but some western media articles are biased themselves. I apologize if I had offended anyone here for my confusing writing, but this is my first (ever) comment to wikipedia and I am still quite inexperienced (and confused) about the right writing style to use here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maximillian12493 (talk • contribs) 12:11, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Welcome! Thanks for raising these concerns. In the case of the hospitals, this may be a result of following the lists our reliable sources feature most prominently, or it may simply be an oversight. I'd suggest asking specifically about this at Talk:Bangkok; give it a week, and if no one responds, feel free to add the other hospitals yourself while citing a reliable source. Or just be bold and go ahead and them, and then leave a note on the talk page explaining your reasoning.

As for your other example, it's hard to get into detail without seeing a specific article, but you're right that generally Wikipedia trusts secondary sources with known editorial oversight over direct statements from governments. You can learn more at our policy pages on reliable sources and primary sources. One point where I definitely agree with you, however, is that articles shouldn't be using "claim" to cast doubt on the Thai govt. statements except in extreme cases per our manual of style--there's actually a subsection on this at WP:CLAIM, though of course nobody (including me!) really can memorize the whole manual. Hope this helps! Feel free to contact me through my user talk page if you have any more questions. Khazar2 (talk) 12:40, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move: Nichkhun Horvejkul

Hello WP Thailand. A move was proposed for Nichkhun Horvejkul by User:CaseyPenk. Please find the discussion at Talk:Nichkhun Horvejkul, and let us know if you support/oppose to dropping Nichkhun's last name from the article's title. Per WP:STAGENAME, Nichkhun seems to be better than Nichkhun Horvejkul. Many thanks! --PBJT (talk) 18:18, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Place name consistency

Probably flogging a dead horse here, since no one seems to care, but as the status quo for town and city names has been to have the town or city article at the plain title, with disambiguating links to provinces and districts sharing the name, for the sake of consistency I'll be renaming articles I come across to follow the scheme (until consensus is established otherwise). In cases where disambiguation by geographical location is necessary, I'll stick with the largest geographic entity within which the name is unique (i.e. Nan, Thailand). --Paul_012 (talk) 13:55, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:27, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Department of Special Investigation

In which article can I mention who is the chief of Department of Special Investigation? Tarit Pengdith [2] --Plumbet (talk) 10:24, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

It'd be best to create the article. --125.25.15.137 (talk) 17:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

animal rights

Nominated 29 July 2012

I am wondering if someone here would be interested in adding Thailand perspectives into the article of animal rights. I think current under representation of Thailand perspective in the article is unacceptable because vegetarianism, Buddhism had long history in Thailand. SSZvH7N5n8 (talk) 09:01, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Template:Symbols of Thailand

{{Symbols of Thailand}} has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.131.160 (talk) 03:36, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:PhasaThai

Template:PhasaThai has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. DH85868993 (talk) 06:16, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Burma → Myanmar requested-move notification

This is a bit off-topic, but is posted here because Thailand is a neighboring country and fellow ASEAN member, and it is desirable to get as wide participation as possible for a potentially controversial title change.

A requested move survey has been started (by Marcus Qwertyus (talk)) at Talk:Burma, which proposes to move:

• Burma → Myanmar

Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 22:43, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Night in paintings (Eastern art)

Please visit this page and add to the article knowledge about night art in your country, much appreciated: Night_in_paintings_(Eastern_art) -- RexRowan  Talk  14:52, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

A movie star or films in which she starred

I would like to help out on the subject of Pawana Chanachit or any of the films she starred in. Can someone create a stub? "A former movie star known as “the Pearl of Asia”, Pawana Chanachit, ...", [3]. --85.196.74.30 (talk) 08:59, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Proposed Revisions and New Entry: Gender Inequality in Thailand

Hello everyone,

I am currently working on a term paper for my Gender Economics class. My topic is about Gender Inequality in Thailand which will mainly focus on the context of gender division of labor in labor market. I am planning on starting my article by pointing out the problem of gender inequality from various perspective based on the gender inequality indicators in order to build up the understanding of the situation in Thailand. I will then present, in detail, the gender in equality in labor market in several aspects such as gender wage gap, employment rate, etc. I would be appreciate if you guys can help me with the sources of data of further idea of what else should be included, or not included, in the article or what other indicator(s) I shall present in my article.

So far I have gathered some information from world bank website. Some of my literatures include:

Kampon Adireksombat, Fang Zheng, and Chir Sakellariou. The evolution of gender wage differentials and discriminations in thailand: 1991-2007. In Economic Growth Centre Working Paper Series, number 2010/05. Economic Growth Centre, 2010.

George Gray Molina and Mark Purser. Human development trends since 1970: A social convergence story, 2010.

Social Institutions & Gender Index. Gender equality in thailand. http: //genderindex.org/country/thailand, 2012. [Online; accessed 28- September-2012].

I am sure I need a lot more citations to make a good article and I would be appreciate if any of you could provide me some suggestion(s). Thank you very much. Econkc (talk) 02:07, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia Ambassador Program course assignment

This article is the subject of an educational assignment at University of Utah supported by the Wikipedia Ambassador Program during the 2012 Fall term. Further details are available on the course page.

The above message was substituted from {{WAP assignment}} by PrimeBOT (talk) on 17:28, 2 January 2023 (UTC)