Renaming Big Brother season articles to align with WP:NCTV
@OfficerAPC: brought up the topic of adding TV series to individual Big Brother # (U.S.) articles to bring them in line with WP:NCTV over at over at the Celebrity Big Brother U.S. talk page however after reading the gudelines they would actually need to be changed to Big Brother (U.S. season #) instead and this would actually need to apply to Big Brother as a whole since all various season articles are using different naming conventions for individual seasons. Here is a table listed below of each of the various editions and current naming convention used. In order to bring all articles in line with WP:NCTV & WP:TVSEASON the majority of pages will need to have their titles changed:
Secret Story (Portuguese TV series)Secret Story # (Portugal)Secret Story: Desafio Final 1
Shouldn't this go by its official localized name Secret Story Casa dos Segredos?Secret Story A Casa dos Segredos (season #)Secret Story A Casa dos Segredos: Desafio Final (season #)
So as we can see this will be a massive undertaking, we also need to figure out if the localized name is preferred over Big Brother (Country TV series) as per WP:NCTV. What is everyone's thoughts? ♪♫Alucard16♫♪20:12, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
I feel like this is a great idea and needs to be done. However I feel this could be better handled under a move request. I know it would be a lot of work to file but I'd be willing to be the one to do it. TheDoctorWho(talk)20:52, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Agreed but prior to that I believe the move was considered controversial that's why there was move request filed and I believe this one could be considered controversial too that's why I suggested filing one. In all due respect WP:BIGBROTHER should actually be changed to respect WP:NCTV. TheDoctorWho(talk)21:52, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Seems to me like it is unnecessary to include "season" spelled out like that... adding extra words. Big Brother 19 was actually officially named that.. it wasn't Big Brother US Season 19... i'm pretty sure that is the reason for the current naming conventions as we should follow the official names of the shows. These arent like seasons of NCIS where they have a continuing cast of characters, no one really calls it season 19.. it's just BB19. Spanneraol (talk) 03:34, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
I understand your point @Spanneraol: but during the whole discussion about the name for Celebrity Big Brother (U.S.) TV series it was established that the guideline set by WP:NCTV should be used and WP:BIGBRO can't override that. They even have examples like with The Apprentice (U.S. TV series) all seasons follow The Apprentice (U.S. season x) which includes the celebrity versions because NBC counted all seasons of The Celebrity Apprentice as a season of The Apprentice. Also once the summer season for UK will launch in 2018 there will be two Big Brother 19 articles. The UK and US versions, as per WP:TVSEASON the articles should be named as Big Brother (UK series 19) and Big Brother (U.S. season 19) and in the lead establish that the name if the season is Big Brother 19. ♪♫Alucard16♫♪04:00, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
Comment only, but per WP:TVSEASON, a format for season articles like "Big Brother #" is fine (there is the example of The Amazing Race. What should be looked at is whether that is the common name used when talking about that show's seasons and if it works out for consistent disambiguation among all the other BB versions. -- Netoholic@06:01, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
This is where I thought that having Big Brother ([Country] season 5) would be more appropriate and would align better with WP:TVSEASON guidelines based on The Apprentice example. I saw the bit about The Amazing Race but the thing is with that show all the international versions have either a localized name or already have the name of the country in the title like The Amazing Race Australia in which no further disambiguation was needed. ♪♫Alucard16♫♪07:28, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
The Apprentice never went by "The Apprentice 3" etc.. it was always just The Apprentice, while Big Brother and Amazing Race use the number as part of the title. Big Brother 19 (US TV Series) makes a lot more sense to me than the way you are describing it. Its like Survivor.. we dont describe them as seasons because each has its own title.. Survivor: Redemption Island instead of Survivor (US TV Series, season 22:Redemption Island).. its essentially the same thing except the # is the subtitle. Spanneraol (talk) 13:45, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
@Spanneraol: In press releases and upfronts NBC used to refer to earlier seasons of The Apprentice as The Apprentice 2for example. Survivor is different because each season has its own unique name and is noted in WP:TVSEASON. A title like Big Brother 19 (US TV series) because it a season, part of an existing TV series not its own outright TV show. The goal here is to ensure all Big Brother articles worldwide are using titles in accordance with WP:NCTV. Like I mentioned there are 6 different articles for a Big Brother 5 that aired in 6 different countries. If using Big Brother # (Country) is okay under WP:NCTV guidelines then nothing has to be done. But with Big Brother there are multiple countries that their local edition is simply known as Big Brother and their seasons are named like the US seasons are (Big Brother 2, Big Brother 3, etc.) so that is why in my understanding those sharing a similar names would be renamed like Big Brother (Country season 2). Here is the part of WP:NCTV that lead me to this understanding:
If there are multiple shows of the same name, include the disambiguation, similar to the above for TV series in the season description, for example, "The Apprentice (U.S. season 1)" and "The Apprentice (UK series one)". Similar names should continue even if one version of the show has several more seasons than the other; for example, in the case of the above, the U.S. version of The Apprentice has had four more seasons than the UK version, but the naming continues up through all of them, including "The Apprentice (U.S. season 11)". Hatnotes should be used to provide links to the other shows' existing season pages if needed.
So if further disambiguation is needed that is the preferred format. Not Big Brother 5 (U.S. TV series) or Big Brother 5 (U.S. TV season). So from this titles like Big Brother Brasil 5 are good and require no further action because the title is unique. (Heck even the Canadian articles which use Big Brother Canada (season #) could be moved to Big Brother Canada # which is their name.) The discussion is what to do with the 6+ versions where the name of the program is simply Big Brother and their individual articles are titled as Big Brother # (Country) and if that is acceptable for WP:NCTV. ♪♫Alucard16♫♪17:44, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
I think Big Brother 5 (UK) and Big Brother 5 (US) makes perfect sense... there is no reason to further disamb by including season.. again Big Brother 5 IS the title of the show and anyone searching for it would type it in that manner.. adding the country signifier afterwards makes perfect sense. Why is there a need to change it? I'd argue that they dont violate the guidelines.. in fact the link you mention even includes Amazing Race 8 as an example. Apprentice was never labelled in on-air credits by any number designation like Big Brother and Amazing Race are. Spanneraol (talk) 19:25, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
Since the result of the discussion was a "hung jury" (no consensus), we should discuss it further in separate versions. OfficerAPC (talk) 01:46, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
I submitted the last of the non-controversial move requests today in relation to Big Brother articles that do not follow the guidelines of WP:NCTV and has no source for their current names.
@IJBall:@OfficerAPC:@TheDoctorWho: Giving a ping to y'all about this question. So before I post a move request in regards to Big Brother Albania I thought that for this edition it would be best to get a discussion going pre-move request in order to determine the best way to handle this edition. As per this video from the broadcaster Top Channel it is clear they do use numbers to individually name the seasons. The video in question is in regards to the ninth season. In this article in the first sentence the overall show is referred to as Big Brother Albania. From the broadcaster's YouTube channel I also found an advertisement for the ninth season which supports the current naming convention as well but at the same time does mention the overall show is Big Brother Albania. [1] So I'm at a loss here on what to do with this show. Should we rename the season articles like Big Brother Albania 9 or Big Brother 9 (Albania TV season)♪♫Alucard16♫♪19:48, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
A wider discussion needs to be held on these ones, like the U.S. and UK versions. And by that, I mean wider than WP:BIGBRO. Probably even wider than WP:NCTV. So, I don't know what forum to hold this discussion in (maybe one of the Village Pumps?...). But we need to tackle these ones, once and for all. (Note, though – however this wider discussion goes, it doesn't change the fact that many of the other country BB editions – e.g. Big Brother Australia, Big Brother Africa, etc. – are incorrectly named "under WP:BIGBRO's naming convention", no matter what!) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:04, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
At the moment, there are four editions of Big Brother being discussed regarding their article titles. We should wait on discussing Big Brother Albania, as its discussion is expected to be complicated given the circumstances. OfficerAPC (talk) 20:12, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
I opened up a discussion that is similar to the one on Celebrity Big Brother (U.S. TV series); you are invited to share your thoughts. OfficerAPC (talk) 18:31, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Essentially this was mainly used on The Apprentice (UK TV series) series articles and was almost identical to WP:BIGBRO's Template:Big Brother endgame. Since this template was deleted it got me thinking about the templates used for Big Brother articles and honestly if they were brought up for discussion by non WP:BIGBRO editors I don't think they would survive. From my understanding of the discussion having a list of contestants in the infobox is discouraged (which is exactly what the Big Brother infoboxes do) and they omit other information normally found in infoboxes.
My proposal for an alternative is instead of using those two infoboxes we could replace them with a custom infobox similar to Template:Infobox television Survivor (which would be Big Brother's closest equivalent) and modify it to fit Big Brother. Like instead of "castaways" it would say "Housemates" for all versions except North America where it would say "HouseGuests", under release we can add "Original network" above "Original release", filming dates can stay since some are pre-recorded editions like China's pilot season, etc. This change would bring WP:BIGBRO more in line with our parent project WP:TV.
Since we wouldn't have Template:Big Brother endgame at the top of articles; editions that have made the change over to using a table for the HouseGuests / Housemates sections can easily add a "Finish" column to the table which would replace the older infoboxes. If the article is using sections and prose then their place and finish can be noted there.
@Alucard 16: After reading the discussion I personally think this is a great idea. A finish column would definitely have to be added to a HouseGuest's table (or in the respective section if no table exists) to pull this off. I also think that a couple of other parameters could be added (like a runner-up and/or America's Favorite HouseGuest column for at least use in U.S. articles where winning those titles are quite prominent, or of course other parameters for important country-specific details). I could draft something up in a sandbox real quick?? TheDoctorWho(talk)00:59, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
@TheDoctorWho: After I proposed it I checked with Gonnym about creating a separate infobox since he is more familiar with WP:TV's Manual of Style than I am (which I should have done prior to proposing this ). Gonnym suggested we use Template:Infobox television season but create a custom module for Big Brother that would place all Big Brother specific information between the |starring= and |country= parameters. I asked him to create us an example with the following parameters:
Presenter (Most international versions use the term presenter and in North America it is used interchangeably with host. If needed we can customize this so for American & English Canadian it says Host instead of Presenter.)(See note from Gonnym below)
Number of days
Number of housemates (for American & English Canadian there is a switch so it will say Number of houseguests)
Winner and Runner-Up
Custom parameter (For American articles used for America's Favorite Juror, America's Player, America's Favorite Houseguest other editors can customize this at will with a consensus for other editions as needed.)
Here are two examples of how the infobox would look based on the most common usage.
The first one is the American/Canadian style using Big Brother 20 (U.S.). For editions that use subtitles for all their seasons (like Big Brother Angola) or use a form of disambiguation that is not the standard WP:NCTV format of TV Show (Country season #) or TV Show Country (season #) (like Big Brother Brasil) editors will have to continue inputting the seasons in manually using the |prev_season= and |next_season= parameters.
Proposal #1 - North American season articles (updated 09:20, 1 December 2018 (UTC))
As we are unwinding WP:BIGBRO's old naming conventions and aligning them with WP:NCTV through various small WP:RMs alot of editions are now following the standard WP:NCTV format of TV Show (Country season #) or TV Show Country (season #). This actually has a benefit because Template:Infobox television season will automatically link the seasons together now and keeps everything more up to date.
Proposal #1 - International articles (updated 09:20, 1 December 2018 (UTC))
There are singular and plural parameters for fields that need them. So for example, if a season has one host present, use |presenter=, but if it has two or more, use |presenters= - this is just a style fix that removes the horrible x(s) naming style ("presenter(s)").
Any naming usage that needs a difference between US/British use is easy to fix. So, |host= will replace |presenter=, but both cannot be used on the same infobox. --Gonnym (talk) 14:44, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
Ah cool thanks Gonnym! I adjusted the example proposals above to reflect this (i.e. The American proposal now says Host and uses |runner-ups= as an example) and fixed both to say "Companion shows". Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat?09:25, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
@Alucard 16: I think both of those look good for now, other parameters can always be added later if we find them to be needed. Just a quick question and a point to make. After reading the discussion on Gonnym's talk page I noticed the part about |film_start= and |film_end= which you mentioned "for the few pre-recorded editions". Is that specifically for entirely pre-recorded or also for partially? For example with BB20 although it started airing on June 27th the HouseGuests moved in on June 20th which would technically be the start of filming. So would we included filming dates with that? Second thing, it may just be example but on the BB20 example that you have above you've listed both Tyler and JC as runner-ups. Don't U.S. seasons traditionally only have 1 runner-up because JC was evicted prior to Kaycee being declared the winner. I believe the only U.S. seasons that officially have two runner-ups are Big Brother 1 (U.S.) and Big Brother: Over the Top.
Updated U.S. Infobox for BB20 addressing my concerns above
Not really sure how to address the Chen to Chen Moonves thing because she credited herself as just Chen for the first 34 episodes of the seasons which would definitely hold majority. Also now that I'm thinking about it, if we make the change, should Big Brother: Over the Top be using this infobox or would it be better to potentially use Template:Big Brother sidebar because that article is technically about the series as a whole (even though it only ran for one season). As I'm going through this I'm thinking of more stuff so sorry if it's getting long. Do you think returning HouseGuests may be a good thing to address in the infobox? Either something along the lines of | number_houseguests = 16 (1 returnee) or even adding an extra parameter for it? TheDoctorWho(talk)19:22, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
Sidebar should eventually also be replaced. Template:Infobox television exists for series articles and works perfectly for all other television articles, including reality shows. Returning houseguests should not be listed in the infobox. --Gonnym (talk) 19:59, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
TheDoctorWho With the North American proposal that is just a mock-up to see how the infobox can be used. It is not meant to be the one used for Big Brother 20. To answer some of your other concerns:
We can use |film_start= and |film_end= for situations like the American version as long as the start date is properly sourced in the article.
I wouldn't recommend | number_houseguests = 16 (1 returnee) the goal is to keep the infoboxes as simple as possible. The Housemate/Houseguests section of the articles would be the best place to identify returnees. I don't see other reality shows doing that even Survivor (U.S. TV series) and Big Brother articles should stick with that lead. Also I'm not sure what WP:TV would think of it or if it would go against MOS:TV.
I wouldn't recommend listing returning Housemates in the infobox like how Winners/Runner-ups would be listed. This could defeat the purpose of the module and could cause unnecessary debates about adding the rest of the Housemates back to the infobox. No other reality show does this as well.
I hope that helps clarifies some questions about the proposal. I'm not sure what to do about the sidebars as they have a lot of information about each Big Brother series but there are some editors that do believe Big Brother series articles should adopt Template:Infobox television. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat?20:21, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
TheDoctorWho It will take some time, if this discussion doesn't get much more activity by December 5th then I will be taking the issue to WP:TfD requesting for the two infoboxes to be deleted and replaced by the module. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat?21:35, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
Nomination for merging of Big Brother season templates
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@TheDoctorWho and Oenix2nd: I'm pinning y'all here since you two volunteered to help with implementing the changes to the the American/Canadian and Philippine adaptions respectively. Gonnym has worked hard and got the custom module working and it is located at Template:Infobox reality competition season. The reason for this name is in the future this module can also be used for similar shows like I'm a Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here! and possibly others like Survivor that use similar fields as their show specific infoboxes could be merged into this one template.
The module includes everything that was previously discussed but if there is anything that needs to be added to the module it can be added with consensus. Since this is a module of Template:Infobox television season all fields that are available for that infobox can be used as well. There are some key things I would just like to point out with the new configuration since this would be the first time Big Brother season articles would have these types of fields:
The parameter |num_episodes= should only be updated after an episode airs as per consensus from WP:TV and as per the template documentation. WP:BIGBRO can not override this unless there is a consensus from WP:TV to do so. This will only impact Celebrity Big Brother 2 (U.S.) as far as I'm aware since CBS has announced it will have 13 episodes.
Similarly the |last_aired= should not be filled in until after the last episode actually airs. While the season is airing this field should have present. See NCIS (season 16) as an example.
I did go ahead and switch Celebrity Big Brother 2 (U.S.) and Gran Hermano VIP (season 6) over to the new modules so we can get an idea of how they would look. I would recommend adding the following edit summary incase someone tries to revert any changes Replaced depreciated [[Template:Big Brother endgame]] with [[Template:Infobox reality competition season|module]] of [[Template:Infobox television season]] per the result of [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2018 December 5#Big Brother season templates]] Moved days to Housemate table. (Replace housemates with endgame depending on the template being replaced)
Part of the discussion was to move the Entered/Exited/Status columns that were part of the old infoboxes to the Housemates sections via a table. Most articles already have one but some do not we need to figure out a consistent look and feel for the tables. I made some proposals over at User:Alucard 16/sandbox5/Old BB Infobox Replacement Proposals and Gonnym added some suggestions that we should consider as far as the Housemate tables go. What do you all think about the table proposals? Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat?15:33, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
A note regarding a change of fields from what was discussed and what was implemented. The Prsenter/Host fields used to be labeled as "Presenter:" and "Host:" but after talking with Alucard I've changed it to "Presented by:" and "Hosted by:". Because of that, there is no need for singular and plural versions of the parameters - so just use "presenter" or "host" regardless of the numbers. Also, the fields that used to be "number_x" are now "num_x" to match the {{Infobox television season}} parameter names. Everything I just said is also in the documentation and the examples, so no need to remember anything I just said. :) --Gonnym (talk) 16:11, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
@TheDoctorWho: I expected this to happen. Best thing to do is revert and apply warning notice then report if it keeps happening. Its why I suggested a descriptive edit summary so there is no excuse for IPs not to know of the reason for the big change. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat?05:44, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
Housemate tables
After seeing Gonnym's additional notes in my sandbox I took a look at Template:Table cell templates and noticed we could actually use {{won}} and {{eliminated}} right away. This will save major time as we don't have to manually code the tables for the color. I didn't see the colors that WP:BIGBRO uses for Runner-up, Ejected or Walked so I created those templates with generic terms (i.e. Removed, Quit). To see how they look in action take a look at Gran Hermano VIP (season 6) and Celebrity Big Brother (Australian TV series). The below table shows the full syntax from Template:Table cell templates/doc for the templates we can use in relation to Big Brother and I added two extra columns for how they would look customized with Big Brother terms used.
Created a new {{CFinalist}} template for finalists that were not classed as "evicted". This should cover all status in the contestant tables now. I did change the color to a lighter shade of yellow so it won't be confused with the immunity color so the nomination/voting history tables should be updated with #ffffdd to match the Housemate/Houseguests tables where needed. The numbers can be spelled out if needed just change "3rd" to "Third", "4th" to "Fourth", etc. The template only goes from 3-8 which is the max I've seen in any article. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat?22:34, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
@Oenix2nd: This is for endgame statuses only not in-progress statuses. For in-game progress we can look at the existing templates and see which colors match WP:BIGBRO's guidelines. However with the change to tables I don't think we need to worry about keeping track of the in-game progress except for evicted, expelled, walked, etc as the Nomination table/Voting history tables typically keeps a good log of them. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat?04:59, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
You should really not treat article pages as blogs (see WP:NOTNEWS and WP:INDISCRIMINATE). Minute-by-minute updates of who is currently nominated and head of the house is useless information. Think of it this way - is the final article going to have that information? If the answer is no - then it doesn't belong in the article at any point. --Gonnym (talk) 10:48, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
A new Newsletter directory has been created to replace the old, out-of-date one. If your WikiProject and its taskforces have newsletters (even inactive ones), or if you know of a missing newsletter (including from sister projects like WikiSpecies), please include it in the directory! The template can be a bit tricky, so if you need help, just post the newsletter on the template's talk page and someone will add it for you.
@TheDoctorWho: If there was enough interest for one I wouldn't mind starting it back up or another editor could. However before starting the newsletter back up we do need to clean up the project page to reflect all the changes that have been happening. I have a vacation in May and I plan on redoing the front page to reflect current consensus. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat?13:21, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
@Alucard 16: My apologies it's taken me a while to get back to you. I think a newsletter might be a good idea to keep project members updated on things happening within the WikiProject. I'd be interesting in helping out on it if we get there. TheDoctorWho(talk)03:20, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
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Missing information about the housemates' entry and exit day
Since the old infobox was deleted, information about housemates' entry day and exit day for the old BB seasons are missing. Is there any way to find them? Many of them are very hardly to find or no way to find on the web. —— A675974811 (talk) 16:33, 20 March 2020 (UTC+8)
@Gonnym: Not sure why IP editor(s) reached out to us instead of following the WP:ER process. However upon further review the issue the IP editor mentioned about Tamil & Kannada is more of an MOS:ACCESSIBILITY issue rather than a WP:BIGBRO MOS issue. A previous editor had colorized the headers and left columns of all the tables similar to the infobox colors which is not how tables should be used in articles. Also with the Kannada article the nomination table violated MOS:ACCESSIBILITY by changing the font size to 75% which made the table barely readable. (I have 20/20 vision and big screen monitors and I was having a hard time seeing that table.) So I reverted the changes on the grounds of MOS:ACCESSIBILITY issues which trumps WP:BIGBRO in any case. Bigg Boss (Hindi season 12) is an example of tables not adhering to WP:BIGBRO's manual of style in general. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat?19:04, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
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