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Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)/Archive 10
Palestinian-Israeli conflict and namesIn Israel and in Palestine, most city names are the English name followed by their Hebrew and Arabic counterparts. In some cities, the Hebrew comes before the Arabic, and in others, the Arabic before the Hebrew. I don't know if this is the right forum for this, but we need some kind of guideline on how to order the Arabic/Hebrew names because in few cases (Hebron, West Bank) there have been repeated reverts that keep switching the order of the two - some argue Hebrew should be first, others state that Arabic should remain first. There are two schools of thought (and I am presenting the arguments being made about Hebron as an example, regardless of accuracy):
Assuming this is the correct forum, could I please have opinions to help formulate a guideline for this issue? We need this guideline so that, before more edit wars start, we can refer POV warriors to the said guidelines. If this is not the correct forum, please advise. Thank you. Ramallite (talk) 14:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
How do we find out the city name?This might seem silly, but how do we determine a city's name? In the process of a discussion at Talk:Chatham Borough, New Jersey, an anonymous user as well as a respected editor dismissed Census bureau data as incorrect. Alansohn then suggested that references by the municipality to itself [would be relevant]; the anonymous user retorted with The name of the government is not the name of the town. So...how do we resolve this? Thanks. —lensovet–talk – 03:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
See this discussion for a similar problem. --Polaron | Talk 05:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Washington? DC?I'll bring this up here since it remains unanswered yonder: Is there actually a city called "Washington" in the District of Columbia? All current official entities use "District of Columbia." It seems that, at most, the City of Washington is defunct/inactive. If anyone has any information to the contrary, please post here or at Talk:Washington, D.C. — AjaxSmack 02:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
More Exception Hunting?
The conversation dies here without the desired change and now we're taking this battle to all these different cities? It's just more creating band-aid exceptions instead of a solid constructive consensus. Agne 00:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was establishing that we have consensus to do something like this, but now just need a more detailed/formal proposal. --Serge 15:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC) A modest proposalLet's eat Irish babies in order to relieve the problem of what to call US cities! er, I mean... The AP lists 30 US cities that do not need to have the state listed in datelines. These are:
Of these, I think that only Phoenix, St. Louis, and Washington are ambiguous (with the mythical bird, the saint, and the state, respectively). I propose that a) the other 27 AP cities get the state removed from their article title; b) we agree that all other cities stay where they are; and c) we agree to never speak of this again. Can anybody get behind this? john k 03:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Here is my initial concern with the concept of using "dateline standards" for encyclopedia standards. The only purpose that a dateline exist is to list the location of the newspaper report. It doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the content or the subject of the newspaper article. An encyclopedia article's title DOES directly relate to the content and subject of the article. Hence, different standards should be applied for completely different concepts. Its like applying the traffic standard of "right of way" to football under the auspice of them both having something to do with things moving.
Support. It is a good first step to recognize common and stylistic usage. As for international recognition, this is acceptable, but the AP Stylebook is used only for the U.S. I would think that airline service from international airports to U.S. airports would be a good guideline for the future, since there are relatively few international gateways to the U.S. (I think), but let's stick to the present proposal. Tinlinkin 04:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
hello all. Should we make this into a formal survey, or is it best to keep it at the level of (technically) informal discussion for the time being? Are we going to need to have a survey at some point? john k 17:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
'Los Angeles' redirects to 'Los Angeles, California', say. That skirts the problem of moving all the existing links from Los Angeles, California to 'Los Angeles'. Then the twenty-seven candidates with potential redirects could be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, using disambiguation pages, for candidate links such as Washington or Las Vegas. --Ancheta Wis 20:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
To everyone who objects on the grounds of "ambiguity," I would advise you to please review Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Primary_topic. Additionally, given that the Cleveland, Boston, Los Angeles, etc. articles are already pointing to the cities, then there's no ambiguity issue in moving the articles to those locations. john k 21:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Questions for proposal oppositionInstead of doing a tit for tat response to every support and oppose vote (as we're doing above), let's try and keep the discussion as organized as possible. A tad similar to an RfA, I invite the supporters of this proposal to ask specific questions to those who oppose and allow the opposition to answer. In the section below, the opposition voice will ask their questions to the supporters. If this is a silly idea, feel free to ignore it and continue with what we have above.
Questions for the proposal supporters
There Is No US Naming Convention at the MomentThere seems to be some sense by some people that there is some sort of US cities naming convention in existence which mandates that US cities be at the form "City, State." But let's go to the tape:
Reading this without any preconceptions, I fail to see how this can possibly be read as a convention mandating that all US cities be at "City, State." The only clear rules are a) use county if you need additional disambiguation; and b) never use "City, United States." "Canonical form" does not mean "mandatory form," and there are already three exceptions (two, obviously, of recent vintage). The article does not indicate one way or another where articles should be - it simply indicates where they are. An issue to consider here is that for most subjects, naming conventions are developed so that people c can write new articles. But for US cities, we actually have pretty much every possible article already in existence. Which means that the current "convention" basically lists the status quo, not what should be done with new articles, which we don't expect to be created. So, at any rate, the idea that there is some kind of existing convention which is being violated by moves is absurd - there is no convention, there is just a description of the way things currently are. The insistence that there is a convention is clearly not something that users who haven't participated in this debate before are picking up - look at the number of different people who have been pretty much randomly popping up and proposing moves of articles on US cities. There is no convention at the moment, because there is absolutely no consensus. This means that most articles stay where they are, but that doesn't mean that there's an actual consensus for articles to stay where they are. There is not. There is a stalemate. There is no standard at the moment, which is exactly why we keep getting people proposing moves. That there is no standard is not the fault of "outside agitators" like Serge and me - it is due to the fact that there is no consensus one way or the other on this issue. It seems to me that we are getting nowhere on this, and that we are unlikely to get anywhere, because one side is unwilling to accept any solution except "all cities at City, State." The proposal I made above was an attempt at a reasonable compromise, but one side is clearly not interested in compromise, because they view any solution other than "all cities at City, State" as a defeat and as unacceptable. So they oppose changing the conventions in any way, and they oppose any attempt to move individual pages on the basis that the convention says we cannot, even though the convention says absolutely no such thing. So how can this possibly move forward? Any solution that would be acceptable to Serge and Polaron and me seems to be entirely unacceptable to Agne and Will and Blankverse, and vice versa. What can possibly be done? Beyond this, could everyone please read freaking Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Primary topic? And could everyone realize that "I think London should be moved to London, England, too," is not actually very useful. If you all think that, why hasn't anyone proposed it here? Will, Agne, why don't you propose a rule that All cities should be disambiguated in the form "City, Larger Entity," with Larger Entity being either the sovereign state in which they are located or notable first order subdivision thereof. I'd love to see the result of that. I'd really love to see the result of that. john k 03:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, let's focus on what appears to be our main point of difference. You contend that, "the convention is pretty well-accepted (except for a very small minority of vocal detractors)". Pretty well-accepted? What do you mean by that? Do I really need to list the dozens and dozens of individual editors who, over the past years, long before I became involved, have made move requests contrary to the "well-accepted" convention, and voted to support them, who are not part of this "very small minority of vocal detractors"? How does their resistance to the convention and efforts to make moves contrary to it constitute it being "well-accepted"? Yes, like with any group, there tends to be a few "vocal" ones like myself, but you seem to be confusing the "very small minority of vocal detractors" with the less vocal (shall we say) masses that our words speak for. --Serge 17:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Arthur, did you read and understand the "primary topic" concept? The example given is Rome. There are like 37 alternate uses of Rome listed at Rome (disambiguation). We have a specific rule which allows us to identify a "primary topic" (in this case, the capital of Italy), and to put the article there. The city in Pennsylvania is clearly the primary topic for "Philadelphia." The city in Massachusetts is the primary topic for "Boston," even if it's named after another, much smaller but still-existing, town in England, and provided the name for a kick-ass 70s arena rock outfit. Primary topics are a long-acknowledged part of wikipedia. Ambiguity simply isn't a reason not to move these pages. That doesn't mean there aren't reasons why we might not want an article to be at a location, even if it's the primary topic. For instance, I think the poet is clearly the primary topic for Lord Byron, but I still don't think the article should be at Lord Byron, because we don't name any articles on people that way. But I'm certainly not going to advocate not moving the article on the basis that "Lord Byron" is ambiguous. It is, of course, true that Lord Byron is ambiguous. That's not the point. The point is that we have a well-recognized exception to rules about ambiguity. That exception is called "primary topic." It's been around for as long as I've been around wikipedia, which is a while john k 01:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC) Peace in Canada - why?The turmoil that dominates this talk page is entirely about U.S. cities. But not so long ago it was about Canadian cities as well. What changed? Why is there no more turmoil for Canadian cities? Are they smarter than us? Apparently. The guideline for Canada now contains this sentence:
That's all it would take for U.S cities too. But noooo... let's be morons instead and insist on disambiguated titles for cities that "have unique names or are unquestionably the most significant place sharing their name." That way we can continue this for weeks, months and years to come. Editors will come and go but the debate will rage on as long as folks keep insisting on using the City, State format for cities with unique names. Way to go. --Serge 04:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
(unindent)
Achieving peace for U.S. citiesI've cited the ongoing "conflict and turmoil" surround the U.S. city comma convention naming guideline as reason to switch to the Canadian convention, which had similar "conflict and turmoil" until they accepted exceptions in their guidelines. Bkonrad writes above: "It is a little disingenuous to cite the 'conflict and turmoil' over these naming issues when you have been a major contributing factor to that conflict and turmoil." To be clear, the "conflict and turmoil" to which I refer is not the discussions in which I'm involved. I'm talking about:
To dismiss my citation of the "conflict and turmoil" because I allegedly cause some of it myself is ridiculous. The conflict and turmoil caused by the insistence to enforce the comma convention even where there is no significant ambiguity issue existed long before I got here, and will continue to exist long after my Wiki retirement (to which I know many of you look forward), until the convention changes. The conflict and turmoil it causes is why I oppose the comma convention. The only way to achieve peace on this issue, for those who are genuinely interested, is to stop insisting on enforcing the comma convention when there is no ambiguity issue. It worked for Australia. It worked for Canada. Why not for the U.S.? If I'm wrong about this, somebody should be able to explain how else they think peace could be achieved on this issue. Not with me. With everybody else who doesn't want this or that city's article to have the state be part of the article name, for whatever reason. How do you achieve peace with all of them, if not in the manner that the Canadians did? --Serge 00:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was lack of consensus to merge U.S and Canada guidelines. Proposal: U.S. to adopt and merge with Canadian conventionThe current guideline for Canada is as follows: CanadaThe canonical form for cities in Canada is [[City, Province/Territory]] (the "comma convention"). For the territories, please note that the canonical forms are "City, Yukon" (not "City, Yukon Territory") and "City, Nunavut" (not "City, Nunavut Territory"), but "City, Northwest Territories". For the easternmost Canadian province, the canonical form is "City, Newfoundland and Labrador"; although they might be referred to as such in casual conversation, a city's proper legal designation is never just "City, Newfoundland" or "City, Labrador". Places which either have unique names or are unquestionably the most significant place sharing their name, such as Quebec City or Toronto, can have undisambiguated titles. Localities that need additional disambiguation include their county or parish. A Canadian city's article, however, should never be titled simply "city, Canada" (e.g "Halifax, Canada"), although it is permissible to create a title of this type as a redirect to the properly titled article. Similarly, a title that uses the province's two-letter postal abbreviation should never be the primary article title, although creating a redirect is permitted. For communities whose names derive from the French language, a redirect should not be created at a translated title (e.g. "Rapids of St. Mary" for Sault Ste. Marie or "Three Rivers" for Trois-Rivières), unless evidence can be provided that the translated name is actually in use by a significant number of speakers. Such a name should normally include the proper French accenting where appropriate (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)), although a redirect should always be created at an unaccented title since many Wikipedians do not know how to type accented characters.
United StatesThe canonical form for cities in the United States is [[City, State]] (the "comma convention") (exceptions include Chicago, Philadelphia, and New York City). Those cities that need additional disambiguation include their county or parish (for example Elgin, Lancaster County, South Carolina and Elgin, Kershaw County, South Carolina). A United States city's article, however, should never be titled simply "city, country" (e.g "Detroit, United States").
Canada and United States ( |
In my opinion, this would a) create a brief statement for the guideline, b) leave the Canadian guideline alone, c) provide a starting point for moves according to the guideline, d) still leave the possibility of future moves open, and e) make sure very small cities like Garrett Park, Maryland retain the state disambiguation. Comments are, of course, welcome. -- tariqabjotu 21:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Considering how measures affects a drastic number of articles, I would encourage a long "voting/discussion" period with several periodic invitations on the Village Pump (and on some of the city talk pages) for other editors to give their input. It would be ideal to get an RfA level of response (at least 50 editors or so).Agne 21:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment I've revised my proposal above, to not merge with Canada. I still want someone to answer my question above about why cities should be treated differently from all other Wikipedia topics with regard to requiring additional information in the article title just because subject is "unknown by the vast majority of the world population". Why the inconsistency for cities? --Serge 22:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- I already said I support Serge's revised version (more or less), but this proposal would also be fine with me. Serge: except in limited contexts, I'd think the most common name of Garrett Park, Maryland is Garrett Park, Maryland. For instance, I wouldn't say "I'm from Garrett Park" unless the conversation had already come around to the fact that I'm from Maryland. I would say "I live in Philadelphia (or, I would have said it, when I lived there, and will say it again, when I live there again) without mentioning the state, because the state is unnecessary, as everyone would know what I'm talking about. How about a "if you were from this place, how would you say you are from there to another American you've just met?" standard? john k 22:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Most references to any subject are made among people who are already familiar with the subject. Why? Because after the first time someone encounters the subject, he too is familiar with it. If you were God and could tabulate all references to Garrett Park that were made by all people in, say, September of 2006, don't you think the vast majority would have been made in and around Garret Park itself, and therefore, not clarified with the state? And, even references outside of the area, like the ones I'm making in this paragraph, don't need the state clarified, because we've already established what we're talking about. By far, the most common name used to reference any city is just the city name. Sure, the first time you refer to something you might have to clarify what you're talking about with additional contextual information, and that applies to cities (by specifying which county, state or country it is in), but not only to cities (like specifying who the main star is in a movie you're talking about, or the year in which it was released). That fact does not make the clarifying information part of the name of the subject. Most people have probably never heard of the movie, The Seven Samurai. So if you tell someone you're going to go see it, to someone you know to be unfamiliar with it (just like you might know them to be unfamiliar with Garrett Park), you might say, "I'm going to go see the The Seven Samurai, the classic samurai movie directed by Akira Kurosawa and starring Toshiro Mifune, do you want to go?" But the need for additional clarifying information for those who are unfamiliar with the subject does not make the additional clarifying information part of the name of the article about that subject in Wikipedia, unless that name has a known ambiguity issue. I ask again: why should names of city articles be treated inconsistently in this respect? --Serge 23:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- These suggestions are starting to converge on one idea. Perhaps we should stick with one and discuss that (that's partially why I copied part of Dave's proposal here). -- tariqabjotu 22:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- I do think the language matter should be left in; the US does have a lot of place names derived from French or Spanish or native languages. Baton Rouge, San Francisco, El Paso, La Crosse, etc. Bearcat 23:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree with Serge here. We don't want to use the proper name of a place as the name of an article unless the name, itself, makes it clear that it is a place. Garrett Park fails. (One of the other ideas in the Los Angeles discussions was to suggest that all places have geographic categorization and a typical lat/lon in the first line of the article. If someone wants to change the umpty-thousand places we have listed to do that, I would have less objection to the naming ambiguities.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Again, while this is a conversation for another day, why should places or cities be any different than everything else in Wikipedia? There are tons of articles in Wikipedia where the title of the article is unclear as to what sort of thing the item is. Can you tell from the title that Boab is a tree, Lunalilo was a person, or that Chiodos is a band?--DaveOinSF 00:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Not addressing the broader issue, but in terms of the language issue, I doubt that anybody is going to think that they should create redirects at Red Stick, Louisiana, Saint Francis, California, The Passage, Texas, or The Cross, Wisconsin. The reason to mention it specifically with Canada is because of the dual official languages thing (if that). I see no particular reason to mention it specifically for the US. It's just common sense - nobody calls these places by those names. john k 00:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Nobody actually calls French-named places in Canada by translated names, either, but that hasn't stopped some people from trying to move those articles to English titles on the patently false assumption that Wikipedia has some kind of "names must always be in English, no matter what" requirement. Bearcat 02:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- But, in fact, nobody that I'm aware of has tried to do this on US articles, and, at any rate, the basic naming conventions are plenty of basis for shutting down such nonsense. The kind of people who do this kind of thing aren't the kind of people who read naming conventions, anyway. john k 02:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Too many proposals
4 proposals have appeared since the last time I checked this page. Perhaps we should have a subpage for proposals.
As it stands, I still don't think any of the proposals are adequate. Tariq's seems the best, except that we have some oddities in that, even in the present disambiguated structure, the correct redirects would be:
- Los Angeles → Greater Los Angeles Area (although mapping to Los Angeles, California is not precisely wrong)
- Las Vegas → Las Vegas metropolitan area (here, mapping to Las Vegas, Nevada is almost certainly wrong. Referring to the city, itself, is not at all common.)
I think we might need to have the base be Los Angeles (city) and Las Vegas (city) for even WP:NC(CN) to be followed. These are just the one's I'm familiar with. NYC and Chicago don't seem to suffer from that problem, and I don't know about Philadelphia. San Diego may also have an ambiguity with the county, but I think the city is probably a more common use than the metropolitan area. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- As has been said repeatedly, the fact that Las Vegas and Los Angeles are often used to refer to metropolitan areas is not unique to U.S. cities. If someone links to just Las Vegas or Los Angeles or Tokyo or London or Nairobi, I expect to be taken to the article about those cities, regardless of what the author intended. I feel changing the short titles to redirect to articles about metropolitan areas is especially pedantic. Similarly, people will sometimes say I see thunder but we shouldn't create a disambiguation page that links to both Lightning and Thunder. The Thunder page should stand as-is and anyone who says the aforementioned statement will just have to understand that that usage is incorrect. -- tariqabjotu 23:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Las Vegas really is a special case; hardly anyone refers to the city of Las Vegas unless referring to municipal government, not even
Las VegasiansLas Vegasantipeople from Las Vegas. But perhaps a modified {{dablink}} would be adequate, along the lines of: This article is about the city of Las Vegas in the U.S. state of Nevada.
Unless you got here from Las Vegas, Nevada, you almost certainly want to see the article Las Vegas metropolitan area or Las Vegas Strip.
For other uses of the term, see Las Vegas (disambiguation) and Vegas (disambiguation).- So I'll withdraw that part of the comment, but will watch the {{dablink}}s for Los Angeles and Las Vegas. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- I see what you mean... Orlando, Florida is like that too. -- tariqabjotu 00:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Las Vegas really is a special case; hardly anyone refers to the city of Las Vegas unless referring to municipal government, not even
- I'm not sure I see why this needs to be any more complicated than other cities; as far as I'm concerned, it's more than enough that Las Vegas Strip and Las Vegas metropolitan area are linked from Las Vegas, Nevada. I don't think anybody would seriously suggest that Toronto be redirected to an article about the entire Greater Toronto Area just because some people from Caledon will say they're from Toronto if they're not sure the person they're talking to has ever heard of Caledon. Bearcat 00:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how the current title Las Vegas, Nevada deals with the issue of the suburbs any better than Las Vegas would. I agree that there's a ridiculous number of proposals at the moment, and that Tariq's is probably the best at the moment. john k 00:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Canadian Regional Municipalities
The Regional Municipalities in Canada are many times refered as actual place names .One of them the " Halifax Regional Municipality"( which has 188 places within it) which is a Regional Municipality not a place name like Halifax ( a legal place name and a separate community) according to the Governments of Nova Scotia and Canada is example where the municipality is wrongly refered as a place name . WEhaat is convention for this ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Markhamman (talk • contribs) .
- There are different types of regional municipalities in Canada. In Ontario, regional municipalities exist as part of what are effectively "federal" municipal structures in certain parts of the province: the upper-tier municipal government (the region) has jurisdiction over matters of a regional nature (i.e. arterial roads, sewer systems, often public transit, etc.), whereas the lower-tier municipalities (the constituent cities, towns and townships that make up the region) handle local issues (e.g. local roads, libraries, etc.). So, for example, Vaughan, Ontario is a city, but it also forms part of the Regional Municipality of York, Ontario. York Region in this case is a place, and a level of municipal government, but it isn't a city (it is made up of cities, such as Vaughan).
In Nova Scotia, however, the Halifax Regional Municipality is, effectively, a city -- there is no longer a City of Halifax (as I understand it, not being from Nova Scotia), as Halifax was amalgamated with neighbouring municipalities to form the new HRM. So we should treat Halifax Regional Municipality as a city.
I can't speak to other provinces, because I have no idea what the case is in, say, Saskatchewan. I suspect regional municipalities in most other provinces, to the extent they exist, are closer to the Ontario model, but I couldn't say for sure. Skeezix1000 14:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Skeezix is correct; the Halifax Regional Municipality (and, similarly, the Cape Breton Regional Municipality) are the only level of municipal government that exist within their borders. While Halifax, Dartmouth, Bedford, Cole Harbour, etc., all still exist as communities, they don't have any separate governments; the HRM is the only legal entity that has municipal government authority over them. They're more akin to the role of Don Mills, Scarborough, East York, Cabbagetown and the Junction within Toronto than they are to the role of Vaughan or Bradford or Markham within York Region. Wikipedia does and should reflect both individual communities and their actual governing bodies as "places". Bearcat 17:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- There are different types of regional municipalities in Canada. In Ontario, regional municipalities exist as part of what are effectively "federal" municipal structures in certain parts of the province: the upper-tier municipal government (the region) has jurisdiction over matters of a regional nature (i.e. arterial roads, sewer systems, often public transit, etc.), whereas the lower-tier municipalities (the constituent cities, towns and townships that make up the region) handle local issues (e.g. local roads, libraries, etc.). So, for example, Vaughan, Ontario is a city, but it also forms part of the Regional Municipality of York, Ontario. York Region in this case is a place, and a level of municipal government, but it isn't a city (it is made up of cities, such as Vaughan).
Halifax Regional Municipality is not a city but a "Regional Municipality" period and not a place name . The area does not appear in the Canadian Postal Code Directory nor does the Halifax Regional Municipality is allowed as a postal address . The separate communities are the proper - legal name places when it comes to services as such . The area is not organized to be a place name . In fact the municipality has more a rural area than urban . The locals in the Eastern Shore area of HRM do not want anything to do with Halifax if they had it thier way . The thing is the community of Halifax {the place) and the Halifax Regional Municipality are two separate things. The present " Halifax Regional Municipality" is nothing more the County of Halifax and the Cities and Bedford with one government and any place within it is still whatever it was before HRM . That what says on the Nova Scotia and Halifax Regional Municipality websites . --Bill 21:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- That doesn't change the fact that the municipal government is an entity called the Halifax Regional Municipality, which therefore is an existing thing which needs an encyclopedia article of its own. Nobody has proposed merging all the different communities into a single HRM article; every one of them already has its own separate article in addition to the HRM article. So I really don't see what the issue is. Bearcat 23:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
U.S. city change proposal active and updated
Just a reminder that the "colored" proposal has been revised and is still active here (note: it has been moved to just below this section). --Serge 20:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- It was revised under the discussion, so it's not clear that any comments other than Serge's are valid. Please close and re-open, if you want the proposal to be taken seriously. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Arthur that the survey should be started over for the sake of accuracy, since we do not want people supporting or opposing the unrevised version.
—Asatruer 21:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Arthur that the survey should be started over for the sake of accuracy, since we do not want people supporting or opposing the unrevised version.
- At the time the proposal was updated, there was one oppose vote and two support votes. Mine was one of the two support votes, tariq was the second. The oppose vote, subsequent to the update, removed his/her objection, and I will clarify that I support the revised proposal. If tariq clarifies that he/she supports the revised version, there will be no votes from anyone who has not seen the revised proposal.--DaveOinSF 21:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Only one Support vote that remains was not made or updated since the update. The reasoning makes it clear that he would support this one too. The only oppose votes were removed since the reasoning was based on the Canada/U.S. merger. This is an active proposal. There is no point in starting over. Let's be reasonable, okay? --Serge 21:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Can we limit oursleves to one propsoed change survey at a time? The "Modest Proposal" is still open, yet there are two or three other proposals being offered. It's unclear which would even prevail if more than one were approved. -Will Beback 21:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but the modest proposal never seemed "official", and appeared to not be achieving consensus. I don't think John even originally intended for people to vote on it. He didn't set it up that way. So, there is only one proposal open that proposes an actual change to the written guidelines for U.S. city names. There should be no confusion. --Serge 23:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- If it wasn't intended to be voted on then why did you vote? Why did the rest of us vote? As far as anyone can tell, that was a formal proposal that was being, and is being, voted on in a survey. If it isn't active, then it should be closed. It's confusing and unhelpful to have so many open surveys at once. A survey can't make a consensus, it can only reflect it. -Will Beback 05:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but the modest proposal never seemed "official", and appeared to not be achieving consensus. I don't think John even originally intended for people to vote on it. He didn't set it up that way. So, there is only one proposal open that proposes an actual change to the written guidelines for U.S. city names. There should be no confusion. --Serge 23:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- While it's good that the other surveys have been closed, it'd be best if neutral parties did the closing. -Will Beback 17:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- i totally agree. *g-- ExpImptalkcon 22:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, I withdrew my support for the proposal, Serge. You may be roughly on the same side of this debate as I am, but I feel comments like "Let's be reasonable, okay?" are going to turn people off, especially if they are relatively new to this debate, and result in the loss of valuable input. I'm sorry, but I cannot continue to support your proposal unless you begin to make a sincere effort to stop biting those who disagree with you (and even those who agree with you). -- tariqabjotu 21:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry to express a bit of frustration. No offense was intended. --Serge 23:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Umm....with all these active proposals going and changing and changing again. Let's hold off on editing the convention on the main page. Agne 08:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I closed the other discussions and moved this one specific proposal to the bottom. --Serge 15:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was Closed: no consensus to change; proposer agrees to close. Septentrionalis 14:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Proposal: U.S. Mirroring Canada
The current guideline for Canada is as follows:
- Canada
The canonical form for cities in Canada is [[City, Province/Territory]] (the "comma convention"). For the territories, please note that the canonical forms are "City, Yukon" (not "City, Yukon Territory") and "City, Nunavut" (not "City, Nunavut Territory"), but "City, Northwest Territories". For the easternmost Canadian province, the canonical form is "City, Newfoundland and Labrador"; although they might be referred to as such in casual conversation, a city's proper legal designation is never just "City, Newfoundland" or "City, Labrador".
Places which either have unique names or are unquestionably the most significant place sharing their name, such as Quebec City or Toronto, can have undisambiguated titles. Localities that need additional disambiguation include their county or parish.
A Canadian city's article, however, should never be titled simply "city, Canada" (e.g "Halifax, Canada"), although it is permissible to create a title of this type as a redirect to the properly titled article. Similarly, a title that uses the province's two-letter postal abbreviation should never be the primary article title, although creating a redirect is permitted.
For communities whose names derive from the French language, a redirect should not be created at a translated title (e.g. "Rapids of St. Mary" for Sault Ste. Marie or "Three Rivers" for Trois-Rivières), unless evidence can be provided that the translated name is actually in use by a significant number of speakers. Such a name should normally include the proper French accenting where appropriate (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)), although a redirect should always be created at an unaccented title since many Wikipedians do not know how to type accented characters.
The current guideline for the U.S. is as follows:
- United States (CURRENT)
The canonical form for cities in the United States is [[City, State]] (the "comma convention") (exceptions include Chicago, Philadelphia, and New York City). Those cities that need additional disambiguation include their county or parish (for example Elgin, Lancaster County, South Carolina and Elgin, Kershaw County, South Carolina).
A United States city's article, however, should never be titled simply "city, country" (e.g "Detroit, United States").
The following new guideline for the U.S., borrowing from the spirit of the Canadian guideline, and reflecting convention actually in use, is hereby proposed:
- United States (PROPOSED)
The canonical form for cities in the United States is [[City, State]] (the "comma convention"). It is required for those cities with names that require disambiguation. Cities which either have unique names or are unquestionably the most significant place sharing their name, can have undisambiguated titles (e.g., New York City, Philadelphia, Chicago). Cities that need additional disambiguation include their county or parish (for example Elgin, Lancaster County, South Carolina and Elgin, Kershaw County, South Carolina).
A U.S. city article, however, should never be titled simply "City, USA" (e.g "Los Angeles, USA"), although it is permissible to create a title of this type as a redirect to the properly titled article. Similarly, a title that uses the state's two-letter postal abbreviation should never be the primary article title, although creating a redirect is permitted (e.g., Portland, OR).
Please vote with "# '''Support'''" or "* '''Not Yet'''". In the latter case, please specify what you would need changed before you could support this. An Oppose vote is appropriate only if you're opposed to any change to the current U.S. City guideline.
Survey - Support votes -2
- Support, but would also support another version that changed the US convention to be essentially identical to the Canadian one but did not physically merge the two.--DaveOinSF 21:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- My vote here was made prior to the proposal being revised. I wish to clarify that my support still stands.--DaveOinSF 21:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Support proposal as now revised; I've noted an expansion suggestion in the discussion below. Bearcat 22:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Support Captures parts of Canadian guideline that is applicable to U.S. without actually merging the two. --Serge 09:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Support This would be fine. john k 15:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Support nobody in my neighbourhood (=europe) says "Las Vegas, NV"....-- ExpImptalkcon 18:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Support; though I don't know what differences to make in my votes for the American and Canadian sections. Georgia guy 20:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- The Canadian section isn't up for a vote; it's an already-established convention that's just listed for comparison. Bearcat 02:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Support --Polaron | Talk 02:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Support—consistency is good where it does no harm. The guideline could probably be condensed and made a bit more transparent with the use of some examples. —Michael Z. 2006-10-27 21:52 Z
Support—Asatruer 22:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)—
- Support the current conventionion maintains consistency in the face of ridiculousness. Seattle SchmuckyTheCat 15:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Support --In many ways, this is also inline with journalistic conventions with datelines, etc. I think if the city is large enough it shouldn't require the state. Vertigo700 17:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Support per Vertigo700 Johntex\talk 17:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Support Will help create uniformity across city articles regardless of the nation they are located in. Furthermore, there are many other major US cities that could use disambiguated titles though it may get contentious deciding which ones. Off the top of my head, we could add St. Louis, Kansas City, Denver, Houston, Dallas, San Diego, San Francisco, Las Vegas... --The Way 19:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Those are all among the 30 AP cities listed above, except for Kansas City, which is clearly ambiguous - there are two Kansas Cities - Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas. St. Louis, I would argue, is also ambiguous, with the actual Saint being a fairly common referent for the name. The others were all in my proposal above, along with Honolulu, Los Angeles, Seattle, Salt Lake City, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Indianapolis, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Detroit, New Orleans, Miami, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Boston, Minneapolis, and Milwaukee. john k 00:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Support --Bobster687 01:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Support. --Soltras 03:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Survey - Oppose votes -2
- Oppose. This is the same propsoal as we rejected in August. It discards the naming convnetuion now in general use. That convnetion provides consistency and predictability for readers and editors. I have seen no compelling reason for changing that convention. Unlike the "Modest Proposal", this one does not even define which cities are "unquestionably the most significant place sharing their name", vagueness which would undoubtedly lead to many long debates over individual articles. It's a recipe for chaos without any benefit. -Will Beback 17:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- This is not the same proposal. The concern over potential "long debates" due to the "vague" wording is arguably not warranted given the wording is taken verbatim from the Canadian guidelines where no such problems have materialized. Of course, that's not a guarantee. Just an indication. Note that prior to going t this wording, the Canadians had much more turmoil than they do now. This should at least reduce what we've been going through too. Also, what has changed since August is the moves of Philadelphia and Chicago, and, thus, the convention and the consensus on this issue has shifted. What would be helpful is a "not yet" vote (rather than oppose) that indicates what would have to change for you to accept this proposal, not just an explanation of why you oppose it in current form. Thanks. --Serge 18:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'll change my vote if you will. I don't see the difference between this proposal and the August proposal, perhaps you could explain it. I hardly think that the moves of two articles is a sufficeint reason to change the convnetion. Every convention is just a guideline that the editors of individual articles can make a case to ignore. -Will Beback 18:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Are you asking me to change my Support vote to Not Yet? On what grounds? If I was unwilling to compromise, I would not support this one for the first sentence alone. If I was unwilling to compromise, I would only support a guideline that explicitly stated additional disambiguating/clarifying information should only be part of a city article, like for any article in Wikipedia (except for some rare exceptions, like Diana, Princess of Wales), when it's required for disambiguation. If I was unwilling to compromise, I would only support a guideline that called for disambiguation of U.S. city articles consistent with the rest of Wikipedia: use parentheses (e.g., Portland). But I'm willing to compromise, so I'm not proposing my ideal version here that I know cannot achieve consensus. I'm supporting a version which I formed based on my understanding of what was most likely to be found acceptable by consensus here. Are you willing to compromise? I'm just asking you to let us know what would have to change in this proposal for you to support it. As to the difference between this and the August poll, that was a straw poll just checking for consensus informally, among some other choices, which, by the way, was favored 9:3 by those participating. This is a formal survey for this specific change. As to whether the moves of two articles is insufficent reason to change does not change the fact that others in other city polls referenced those changes as being influential in terms of changing their views on this issue in general (some would use the moves to support their vote on some other city, others said it was time for a vote like this). If you choose to change your vote to Support or Not Yet (with information on what would have to change for you to support this proposal), feel free to remove my comments associated with this Oppose vote, including this one. Thanks. --Serge 19:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's kind ofi a surprise to find out that all the other surveys held on this page didn't really count. If this one is supposed to count then we should conduct it properly by announcing that there is a formal survey being conducted., Otherwise someone may say that it was just a strawpoll or just an informal proposal and we'll have to do this again and again and again. -Will Beback 01:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- All of the other ones either stated they were straw polls, or asked for comments (not votes), etc. This is the first one that I know of that is presented formally. I will announce it widely. Thanks. --Serge 05:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's kind ofi a surprise to find out that all the other surveys held on this page didn't really count. If this one is supposed to count then we should conduct it properly by announcing that there is a formal survey being conducted., Otherwise someone may say that it was just a strawpoll or just an informal proposal and we'll have to do this again and again and again. -Will Beback 01:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Are you asking me to change my Support vote to Not Yet? On what grounds? If I was unwilling to compromise, I would not support this one for the first sentence alone. If I was unwilling to compromise, I would only support a guideline that explicitly stated additional disambiguating/clarifying information should only be part of a city article, like for any article in Wikipedia (except for some rare exceptions, like Diana, Princess of Wales), when it's required for disambiguation. If I was unwilling to compromise, I would only support a guideline that called for disambiguation of U.S. city articles consistent with the rest of Wikipedia: use parentheses (e.g., Portland). But I'm willing to compromise, so I'm not proposing my ideal version here that I know cannot achieve consensus. I'm supporting a version which I formed based on my understanding of what was most likely to be found acceptable by consensus here. Are you willing to compromise? I'm just asking you to let us know what would have to change in this proposal for you to support it. As to the difference between this and the August poll, that was a straw poll just checking for consensus informally, among some other choices, which, by the way, was favored 9:3 by those participating. This is a formal survey for this specific change. As to whether the moves of two articles is insufficent reason to change does not change the fact that others in other city polls referenced those changes as being influential in terms of changing their views on this issue in general (some would use the moves to support their vote on some other city, others said it was time for a vote like this). If you choose to change your vote to Support or Not Yet (with information on what would have to change for you to support this proposal), feel free to remove my comments associated with this Oppose vote, including this one. Thanks. --Serge 19:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'll change my vote if you will. I don't see the difference between this proposal and the August proposal, perhaps you could explain it. I hardly think that the moves of two articles is a sufficeint reason to change the convnetion. Every convention is just a guideline that the editors of individual articles can make a case to ignore. -Will Beback 18:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- This is not the same proposal. The concern over potential "long debates" due to the "vague" wording is arguably not warranted given the wording is taken verbatim from the Canadian guidelines where no such problems have materialized. Of course, that's not a guarantee. Just an indication. Note that prior to going t this wording, the Canadians had much more turmoil than they do now. This should at least reduce what we've been going through too. Also, what has changed since August is the moves of Philadelphia and Chicago, and, thus, the convention and the consensus on this issue has shifted. What would be helpful is a "not yet" vote (rather than oppose) that indicates what would have to change for you to accept this proposal, not just an explanation of why you oppose it in current form. Thanks. --Serge 18:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose strongly. Not only is this a violation of what Americans actually expect to see, it would be a logstical nightmare to have to fix all of the double redirects, let alone having to make all of the moves. This bus has left the station, let's not redesign the wheel. (yeah, mixed metaphors). User:Zoe|(talk) 19:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- There are a fair number of redirects, but I don't think that should ever be a reason not to move a page. And I don't understand this "what Americans actually expect to see" business. I expect articles on major American cities to be treated the same as articles on major foreign cities. I.e., for Paris and Los Angeles and Toronto and Sydney and Shanghai to all follow the same rules. john k 19:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- There aren't that many double redirects that would be created. Typically they range from 10-20. Los Angeles has the most with 46. These are very easily fixed with something like AWB. 130.132.94.174 19:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Not another vote based on worries about technical issues? Seriously, there are people here who can make such changes, if necessary, with relative ease. --Yath 23:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose. This may be OK for Global cities, but there are only nine to eleven of those in the U.S. I think it would be a mistake to apply it wholesale. For one thing, which Kansas City gets to be the Kansas City? -- Donald Albury 20:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Kansas City can be a dis-ambiguation page because it has 2 major meanings. However, this discussion is only for city names with one major meaning. Georgia guy 20:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- The proposal does not seek to remove state names "wholesale". Moves to unqualified names still have to be justified by the requesters. --Polaron | Talk 20:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think anybody has suggested that Kansas City should be a page on the city in Missouri (which would obviously be the one one would choose as the most important). john k 23:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose for reasons repeated ad nauseum here and on a dozen city talk pages. Phiwum 21:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- What changes would you want implemented in the proposal for it to become acceptable to you? --Polaron | Talk 21:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see any need for a change. I prefer a simple, uniform rule. "All U.S. cities should be identified so" is better than "All U.S. cities should be identified so, unless...". So I have no suggestions for changes in the proposal. Sorry. Phiwum 21:38, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- What changes would you want implemented in the proposal for it to become acceptable to you? --Polaron | Talk 21:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose. The status quo is just fine, and has been just fine for the many years it has been established. There are a thousand more important things to be working on than to argue this issue ad infinitum. Stan 12:54, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose The current system works and it's annoying if there all of a sudden is a bunch of exceptions that we have to keep track of in order to preserve linking, etc. I agree with the above that states Let's not redesign the wheel.Gohiking 17:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- It is almost a certainty that any "exceptions" created already have the unqualilfied name redirecting to the city article so link tracking is not going to be an issue. --Polaron | Talk 19:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose This one goes too far. I'm not at all opposed to having US cities that are known around the world being under "Cityname", but I am opposed to Podunk, US being put under "Cityname". --Bobblehead 00:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Strongly Oppose As per everyone else. Pacific Coast Highway {blah • Happy Halloween! • WP:NYCS} 00:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose In the United States, the States themselves are sovereign entities, not mere administrative districts. In the same way that a person is both a citizen of United States and the State in which they reside, so too, in my opinion, is a city both part of the United States and the State in which it is located. Given this, I would hesitate to remove reference of the State from our naming conventions."Country" Bushrod Washington 01:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose There are so many cities in the United States with the same name but in different states that it would evolve into an argument over who gets the page with only the city name. Charleston, South Carolina or West Virginia? Columbia, Missouri or South Carolina? Columbus, Georgia or Ohio? Portland, Maine or Oregon? Rochester, Minnesota or New York? The list would be enormous and who would decide which city gets the single name page and how many times will it end up being disputed? It appears that to do this would create a problem that there is no need to create. --Chris24 01:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose. Leaving off the state is fine for cities known that way worldwide. But if it's just because they can be recognized that way by U.S. users, then that's presumptious and confusing to residents outside the U.S. And there aren't all that many in the former category. I doubt my own city of Seattle would qualify. --Rbraunwa 01:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Strong oppose. Per comments left above. It would be a logistical nightmare to redirect thousands of cities that are non-repeatable. What about cities such as Charleston, West Virginia and Charleston, South Carolina (someone else mentioned this too, sorry)? Who would get the grabs on this? Would it be based on population? If so, that would be unfair and unbalanced. What about tiny communities versus large cities? This would create unfair bias, would disrupt thousands of pages, and would never be completed in a tidy fashion because each page would need review and comparison that there are no other pages that share the same city name within the United States. The current system works wonderfully; if it isn't broken, no need to fix it, or change it into something radically different that would only cause mass confusion amongst long-time editors and guests alike. The current system of using "City, State" and "City" works wonderfully. If, for instance, there is a major city, such as New York City, that is unrivaled, then it would be approperiate to have both "City, State" and "City" naming conventions. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 04:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- In response to your Charleston example (and the Columbus and Portland examples from the previous statement), the proposal addresses that. It says
- The canonical form for cities in the United States is City, State (the "comma convention"). It is required for those cities with names that require disambiguation.
- Thus no city would be at Charleston, Columbus, Portland, Rochester, Phoenix, and Columbia, as they all disambiguation (since they conflict with other comparably notable topics). -- tariqabjotu 04:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Noted. But how would this renaming process take effect? We are still having a mess of a time after WP:USSH was enacted at a weak consensus, but it was accepted to "end the debate" once and for all. I hope that the messes at WP:USSH won't happen here. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 04:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- In response to your Charleston example (and the Columbus and Portland examples from the previous statement), the proposal addresses that. It says
- Oppose, for reasons I've described elsewhere on this page and others. Basically, my contention is that the canonical form for a US city name is (contra Serge) "City, State", regardless of fame. AJD 00:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- But that is what the current proposal says -- the canonical form is "city,state". --Polaron | Talk 01:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- But it goes on to say that that form should only be used if required for disambiguation. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 02:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, but what is the state name used for? Isn't its primary reason to distinguish it from other places with the same name? --Polaron | Talk 02:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- To be clear: I meant it's the canonical form in real life, not just in Wikipedia conventions. It's the default method of referring to a U.S. city or town, absent context which makes the state clear. For a very few cities (Philadelphia, etc.), the name of the city itself often provides sufficient context, but (my position is) that does not mean the omission of the state name is not still exceptional in those cases. And, no, Polaron, I don't believe that the reason the state name is used in real life is to distinguish it from other places that have the same name; if that were the case, nobody would say "Yreka, California" (because there's no other Yreka) or "Elgin, South Carolina" (because that doesn't disambiguate). It's just because that's the way people refer to cities by name in the U.S., without context. In Wikipedia article titles, (my opinion is) we shouldn't assume that the context is present. AJD 02:22, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- So to get your support, would the proposal have to say that this is the standard form used in real life? And also to be clear, the current proposal is saying that outside a small number of possible exceptions, the default style to be used is "city,state". It would be helpful if people say what needs to be changed in order for the proposal to be acceptable. Then at some point (soon I hope), a new proposal that tries to accomodate as much of the concerns as possible will be put up. --Polaron | Talk 02:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- No. The fact that this is the standard form used in real life is the reason that I oppose the proposal. I think "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania" is more correct, as an article title, than "Philadelphia". Changing the proposal (within the bounds of recognizability) isn't going to win it my vote. (Also, the current proposal doesn't say a "small number" of possible exceptions; indeed, as it is currently stated, the number of exceptions would be very large.) AJD 03:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- So you're saying you'd prefer the current vague wording of the US city guideline over anything that clarifies what can and cannot be exempted. Anyway, if you'd prefer not to compromise, that's your right. --Polaron | Talk 03:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- I mean, the proposal I'd vote for—in order to eliminate vagueness of the wording—would be to remove the existing parenthetical remark about exceptions. I think the exemptions are, though well-intentioned, misguided and confusing (with the possible exception of New York City, merely because in many contexts "New York, New York" refers specifically to Manhattan—but I'm not that happy about that either). AJD 03:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- But every other encyclopedia in the world has its article on Philadelphia as "Philadelphia." And the current proposal does not say that the number of exceptions would be very large. It implies that the number of exceptions could be very large - any city that is not ambiguous or is a primary topic would be a candidate to be moved. However, each move would have to go through a requested move process. I imagine many pages that would be candidates would never even get that far. john k 11:50, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- So you're saying you'd prefer the current vague wording of the US city guideline over anything that clarifies what can and cannot be exempted. Anyway, if you'd prefer not to compromise, that's your right. --Polaron | Talk 03:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- No. The fact that this is the standard form used in real life is the reason that I oppose the proposal. I think "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania" is more correct, as an article title, than "Philadelphia". Changing the proposal (within the bounds of recognizability) isn't going to win it my vote. (Also, the current proposal doesn't say a "small number" of possible exceptions; indeed, as it is currently stated, the number of exceptions would be very large.) AJD 03:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- So to get your support, would the proposal have to say that this is the standard form used in real life? And also to be clear, the current proposal is saying that outside a small number of possible exceptions, the default style to be used is "city,state". It would be helpful if people say what needs to be changed in order for the proposal to be acceptable. Then at some point (soon I hope), a new proposal that tries to accomodate as much of the concerns as possible will be put up. --Polaron | Talk 02:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- To be clear: I meant it's the canonical form in real life, not just in Wikipedia conventions. It's the default method of referring to a U.S. city or town, absent context which makes the state clear. For a very few cities (Philadelphia, etc.), the name of the city itself often provides sufficient context, but (my position is) that does not mean the omission of the state name is not still exceptional in those cases. And, no, Polaron, I don't believe that the reason the state name is used in real life is to distinguish it from other places that have the same name; if that were the case, nobody would say "Yreka, California" (because there's no other Yreka) or "Elgin, South Carolina" (because that doesn't disambiguate). It's just because that's the way people refer to cities by name in the U.S., without context. In Wikipedia article titles, (my opinion is) we shouldn't assume that the context is present. AJD 02:22, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, but what is the state name used for? Isn't its primary reason to distinguish it from other places with the same name? --Polaron | Talk 02:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- But it goes on to say that that form should only be used if required for disambiguation. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 02:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- But that is what the current proposal says -- the canonical form is "city,state". --Polaron | Talk 01:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose As I have reiterated numerous times, this is a solution in search of a nonexistent problem. Is there something wrong with the article title? No. Will it shave milliseconds off typing? No. Is there something wrong with the current convention? No. So far, no decent rationale has been put forth why such a drastic change is necessary. And the constant polling regarding this matter is not only annoying and ludicrous, but (if interpreted broadly enough) disruptive. Let's get back to writing and bettering this encyclopedia, not arguing over such a trivial matter that should not have existed in the first place. --210physicq (c) 03:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Do article names ever matter in the sense you're describing? It seems to me that the answer is clearly no. Would there be something wrong with having Seattle, Washington at Seattle instead? No. Does the current title shave milliseconds off typing? No, if anything, it adds milliseconds. Is there anything wrong with the proposed convention? No, it is used with no serious trouble for Canada. So far no decent rationale has been put forth as to why the current "convention," which is really a mess and not a convention at all due to the lack of consensus about whether there should be exceptions, is a good idea. Your position, so far as I can tell, is an argument against ever changing naming conventions when a naming convention already exists, even if that naming convention is a complete and total mess and has no consensus behind it. john k 11:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- I am quite amused by your reasoning and your apparent cut-and-paste rebuttal of my arguments that only serve to recycle and regurgitate discredited arguments. Is there something wrong with Seattle, Washington at Seattle? No. Is there a need to move it? No! Do you have to type the current full title of the article? No! Redirects exist to mitigate this problem. Is there something wrong with the proposed convention? Yes, in that it is unnecessary. I am not against changing naming conventions; however, I am against changing conventions when such changes are unnecessary and pointless, if not downright ridiculous. You have not elaborated upon on how the current convention is a "mess"; more likely than not the proposed convention will create the mess that you "see" in the current convention (if it even exists). Your seeming lamentation that there is "lack of consensus on whether there should be exceptions" should tell you that there should not be any exceptions at all. Your allusion of me as an obstructionist is dubious at best, insulting at worst. --210physicq (c) 03:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- And before you use the same arguments as before, please see negative proof. --210physicq (c) 03:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Do article names ever matter in the sense you're describing? It seems to me that the answer is clearly no. Would there be something wrong with having Seattle, Washington at Seattle instead? No. Does the current title shave milliseconds off typing? No, if anything, it adds milliseconds. Is there anything wrong with the proposed convention? No, it is used with no serious trouble for Canada. So far no decent rationale has been put forth as to why the current "convention," which is really a mess and not a convention at all due to the lack of consensus about whether there should be exceptions, is a good idea. Your position, so far as I can tell, is an argument against ever changing naming conventions when a naming convention already exists, even if that naming convention is a complete and total mess and has no consensus behind it. john k 11:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose. Quite strongly... Not only is it going to start [ERR: Overflow] debates about which cities are worthy and worldly enough, but it breaks from the structured system we have now. I'm also opposed to individual "exemptions" popping up on a monthly basis. Chicago, Philadelphia... Now LA is going to say "well if Philadelphia is worthy then we definitely are." New York City makes sense due to the repetitive nature of its name, but otherwise I'm for staying with the City, State format. As mentioned above, it can easily be bypassed by piping when necessary. -newkai t-c 17:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Survey - Not Yet votes -2
- We are not ready to decide anything yet. Starting a vote this far back in the discussion is too easy to miss. The colors, some of which are not readable don't help. I suggest that someone take the main points to a subpage and archive this discussion leaving a pointer to the subpage. If multiple proposals come back, they need to be given a subpage so that editors can follow the discussions. Once issues are resolved then we can bring it all together and maybe reach consensus. Vegaswikian 08:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- I've tried to address your concerns. Let us know. Thanks. --Serge 22:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- What is the name of the subpages you set up? Vegaswikian 00:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- It is now clear that there is only one proposal active, therefore no need for a subpage, no? --Serge 15:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- See the immediately following comment by me. Tariq's proposal was in the investigative stage, asking for suggestions for improvement. Your proposal overrides that, so this is not a valid proposal until tariq's proposal, which you improperly closed, properly terminates. May I suggest that you close this proposal as improper and start over? (Note that I did close an AfD which was opened simultaneously with a deletion review of the immediately previous keep (no consensus) AfD. But that's not the same thing as having two active proposals.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 17:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- No it is not clear. This whole discussion is a mess. It needs to be cleared out so that a single unified discussion can be started. I will go on record as opposing any proposal on this page since it is so confusing if that is what is needed. The links from the TOC don't work since they are duplicated! Vegaswikian 20:10, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- It is now clear that there is only one proposal active, therefore no need for a subpage, no? --Serge 15:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- What is the name of the subpages you set up? Vegaswikian 00:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- I've tried to address your concerns. Let us know. Thanks. --Serge 22:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- The active proposal, if any, is Tariq's. The refactoring has obscured discussion. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Tariq's proposal was an informal request for comments started while a formal proposal was active that caused confusion. I've tried to address your concerns... let us know. Thanks. --Serge 22:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Not Yet
This discussion ought to be restarted and this section archived; it has become impossible to follow. Also, I'm getting real tired of Serge's abrasive comments. They aren't even directed towards me, but nevertheless I still feel they foster an unfriendly and at times intimidating environment; it needs to stop. -- tariqabjotu 21:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- I've tried to address your concerns... let us know... Thanks. --Serge 22:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Not yetStrong Oppose Unclear as to the treatment of names (like Matawan, which is a redirect) which are neither ambiguous nor clear world-wide primary usage. There are a lot of these; and we should be clear on how they are to be treated; presently, Matawan, New Jersey. Septentrionalis 20:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- If it's not clear world-wide primary usage, then it shouldn't be a redirect either. That's a separate issue. If it is clearly world-wide primary usage, then the proposed guideline is open on what to do, just like the Canadian one is for this situation. If we specify what to do in that case, we are unlikely to achieve consensus. This wording turns out to work quite well for Canada. Let's try it too. We'll never know until we do. --Serge 22:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Changing a convention to something deliberately vague because neither of the two alternatives has consensus is an invitation to disaster; both sides will assert, reasonably, that they have consensus, and attempt to impose their variant. Septentrionalis 20:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- If it's not clear world-wide primary usage, then it shouldn't be a redirect either. That's a separate issue. If it is clearly world-wide primary usage, then the proposed guideline is open on what to do, just like the Canadian one is for this situation. If we specify what to do in that case, we are unlikely to achieve consensus. This wording turns out to work quite well for Canada. Let's try it too. We'll never know until we do. --Serge 22:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Not Yet This proposal is certainly better than what we have, but I feel we should provide a starting point with some of the moves. If this alone is enacted, we'll still have a large number of move requests to go through. It would be nice if we could come up with a set of cities, like in the Modest Proposal, that would get moved at the conclusion of this type of discussion. I would also like the convention to address the issue of smaller cities, such of Matawan, New Jersey. In my opinion, they should stay where they are because the likelihood of their primary status being usurped by a city/town that decides to copy their names is high (see john k's Garrett Park, Maryland example). -- tariqabjotu 22:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- What if we have a separate specific multi-move proposal that is in accordance with this guideline if and when it passes? As to the Matwan concern, if you will, how often do new cities appear? Wouldn't we deal with the ambiguity as it surfaces like we do for all Wikipedia articles? Is that really a deal-breaker issue for you? --Serge 22:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- I suppose having a separate multi-move proposal post-guideline would be a reasonable thing to do. Regarding your second point, however, I am not suggesting that new cities will just appear (although it can happen) but rather that new articles will appear. For example, if a little-known city or town by the name of Seattle suddenly got its own article, it is highly unlikely Seattle, Washington would no longer be the primary subject for Seattle. However, if a little-known city or town by the name of Matawan suddenly got its article, we would likely have to make Matawan a disambiguation page because Matawan, New Jersey is little-known as it is. -- tariqabjotu 22:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Ah, well, the Canadian wording handles that, no? That is, have unique names or are unquestionably the most significant place sharing their name burdens all those who request or support the move of City, State to City to verify that City indeed meets this requirement, which can be rather easily and quickly ascertained with WP:GOOGLE. Again, it seems to work for Canada. --Serge 23:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- The Google test is not perfect. If a city is not well-known to the Internet-using population (i.e. the developed world, usually) it may not turn up prominently in a Google test. -- tariqabjotu 23:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Indeed, and to the extent that that's a real problem, it is already shared (and solved on an as-needed basis) with every other modestly notable article that is not predisambiguated in Wikipedia. Why should (small) U.S. cities be treated inconsistently? --Serge 23:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Not yet/Strong Oppose. The wiki way is to have a discussion FIRST, and then have a survey. These continuing surveys on this page, and on the talk pages of quite a few large cities, are getting quite tedious. It is time to get the issue settled, but you should start a fresh discussion on a subpage or separate Wikipedia namespace page, advertise it widely (WP:RFC, Wikipedia:Village pump (policy), the Cities WikiProject, every page where there has been a no consensus survey on page moves--Los Angeles, New Orleans, Boston, Seattle, etc., as well as any other relavant policy pages, WikiProjects or Wikipedia news pages. This is a major change from the current practice, and should not be done by stealth. BlankVerse 01:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- There has been a LOT of discussion over and over about this issue, by anyone interested in coming to this page. We've had multiple informal straw polls, now some of us feel it's time for a formal poll. I really don't want to start the discussion all over again, on another page. But maybe we should archive some of the stale stuff above. The separate page idea was tried back in August and flopped. But getting the word out is certainly the next step, but I wanted to get some idea if we have consensus here first before I went to that step. Any help in getting the word out would be appreciated. Thanks. --Serge 05:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Agree 100% with BlankVerse. Agne 02:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- We are still discussing, aren't we? Anyway, you are correct that we should not leave this up to bean-counting. It seems some are in a rush to get this thing changed. The way things are going, something probably will get changed once the dust settles, but there is no reason to shut down other discussions because they weren't in survey format or are seen as "informal". But back on the other side, I do not think it would be unreasonable for some of the most involved editors in this debate to try to come up with a few important points for the proposal to cover and then bring the matter to the forefront via RfC and the other means you mentioned. -- tariqabjotu 02:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- In a rush? No one is in a rush, certainly not me. But I am hopeful we have found something on which we can get consensus. It seems to address most of the concerns everyone has, except for those who want to retain a strict comma convention, period. --Serge 05:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Not yetOpposeScott Davis Talk 09:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC). I object to the idea of not being supposed to vote "oppose" to a change proposal, as it implies that the old version must be changed, and we are only discussing what to change it to. That said, the beginning should be expanded to "The canonical title for articles about cities in the United States is ..." (we are naming an article, not a city). Therefore I vote "not yet" instead of "oppose". Reasons I would vote to oppose include:
- the changed tone of the guideline which moves from certainty of naming with a few exceptions to there being two candidate names for the article about each city/town
- There are no clear criteria for how to identify which cities/towns would have unqualified article names. Candidate explanations would be the AP list or similar, or state capitals which are also the largest city in that state.
- Remember that the most significant use of the word (without explicit or implicit geographic context) might actually be something named after a city, but the city itself is not well known outside the USA. Examples of what I'm thinking of include Dublin Core, Cleveland Engine (which usually means Ford 335 engine), Detroit Diesel, Indianapolis 500. All of these are not places, but would normally be abbreviated to a single word which is also a city name. Link counts are not reliable for identifying primary use as city articles by their nature have many more incoming links than articles about other kinds of concepts.
- I also agree with Agne and BlankVerse. --Scott Davis Talk 02:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose votes are allowed but discouraged in order to encourage movement towards consensus.
- The "canonical form" language is in the current language for the U.S. and Canada guidelines - I just cloned it. This is a separate issue that can be fixed probably without a vote.
- (1) As I indicated in the compromise section below, this is not my first choice either, by far. But this language works for Canada, and probably is more likely to cause less strife than is caused by the current U.S. version, and has a chance of being adopted. Anything more specific will probably get more opposition, or so it has seemed in the informal polls.
- (2) Again, the point here is to piggy-back on something that works for Canada, and see if it works for us. It seems like it is likely to be problematic in theory, but in reality, at least in Canada, it has not been.
- (3) Good point and I suspect are good arguments for why a given city is not "unquestionably the most significant place sharing their name". I think rewording to clarify that it must not only be the most significant place, but the most significant subject using that name, is a good idea, but, again, relatively a nit that can be ironed out later. Voting "support" on the assumption that there are certain relatively minor wording adjustments to be done is certainly acceptable. I just don't want to change something minor such that others will claim all the votes made prior to the change are invalid. For a major change (like the previous version which was a merge with Canada)... sure.
- I would agree with this, but I strongly disagree with Scott's claims that Detroit Diesel, Cleveland Engine and Dublin Core are competitors with the cities for primary topic status (less sure about Indianapolis, but I think that "Indy 500" is the term one would use for the Indianapolis 500, and that if one said "Indianapolis," the primary meaning would normally be the city). Dublin is already the main article, and in the other cases we already have the City page redirecting to City, State. Attempts based on similar concerns to move the City redirect at various pages to redirect to City (disambiguation) have all been failures, as far as I'm aware. john k 11:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- John: Here "Indy" means the Lexmark Indy 300, "Indianapolis" would be at least as likely to mean the race as the city. I'm sure that Dublin in Ireland is the primary meaning of "Dublin", but I'd guess a lot more people have heard of Dublin Core than have heard of the place it is named after, which was my point (Waco is another example where the town itself is not well known). "Detroit" is an alternative to "Caterpillar" as an engine in a truck. It's also a euphemism for the big American car companies (as distinct from their Australian subordinates). Most people know it's the name of a city, but the first association is not to the city itself. --Scott Davis Talk 13:42, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why you're harping on something having to do with Dublin, Ohio, which wouldn't get moved. In terms of things like Waco and Detroit, I think you are confusing metonymy with actual confusion of reference. "Waco" is used as a metonymy for the assault on the Branch Davidian compound, and "Detroit" is used as a metonymy for the American auto industry. But "London" is used as a metonymy for "the British government." That doesn't mean that the primary meaning isn't the city. Primary topic doesn't mean that in every context one would assume that given meaning. Otherwise nothing is a primary topic, and everything needs to be disambiguated. john k 20:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- John: Here "Indy" means the Lexmark Indy 300, "Indianapolis" would be at least as likely to mean the race as the city. I'm sure that Dublin in Ireland is the primary meaning of "Dublin", but I'd guess a lot more people have heard of Dublin Core than have heard of the place it is named after, which was my point (Waco is another example where the town itself is not well known). "Detroit" is an alternative to "Caterpillar" as an engine in a truck. It's also a euphemism for the big American car companies (as distinct from their Australian subordinates). Most people know it's the name of a city, but the first association is not to the city itself. --Scott Davis Talk 13:42, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- I hope I've addressed most of your concerns. --Serge 05:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thankyou. You have addressed my concerns (but not assuaged them), and introduced a new one: that "not yet" votes will be counted as "support change with suggested minor rewording", whereas I intended it to mean "oppose change unless major shortcomings in the proposed version are fixed". I must therefore strengthen my vote to oppose change from the current version to the currently-proposed version as I believe the current proposal to be inferior. --Scott Davis Talk 09:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Not sure what I wrote to give you that impression. Only if you change your vote to Support will it count as support. In terms of counting towards consensus at any given time, Not Yet and Oppose are the same. --Serge 14:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thankyou. You have addressed my concerns (but not assuaged them), and introduced a new one: that "not yet" votes will be counted as "support change with suggested minor rewording", whereas I intended it to mean "oppose change unless major shortcomings in the proposed version are fixed". I must therefore strengthen my vote to oppose change from the current version to the currently-proposed version as I believe the current proposal to be inferior. --Scott Davis Talk 09:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Not yet: As much as I support a change from the current guideline, or more importantly how it is currently being used, I agree with BlankVerse and feel that this should not be decided by a small and insular community of this Ivory Tower, like the six people —four for and two against— that came up with this guideline in the first place, but rather by a larger and more deverse selection of people. I strongly support the notion that the Cities Project should play an active part in his discussion and that all reasonable effort should be made to inform those who may not watch this page but have an interest because of some city or another that they watch, and while a request for comment would be good, it almost seems that sometimes mediation is needed here.—Asatruer— 03:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- I intend to keep this survey open for a week or two, at least, and only after it has much broader exposure. Good idea withholding your vote until that happens. Wikipedia is better for it. Thank you. --Serge 05:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- There should certainly be more exposure - posting on village pump, and on WP:CS would be in order, I think. I also agree with Asatruer that possibly the only real solution is
- Strong Oppose for many reasons but namely that this proposal does nothing to increase stability and consistency within the US convention, introduces a subjective criteria that opens the door for a US centric bias, and also lessens the ability for a title to precisely and unequivocally points to what the subject of the article is about. Agne 10:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- US centric bias? Because making articles on US cities look more like articles on cities in the rest of the world shows a US centric bias? And how would Los Angeles, New Orleans, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, or Honolulu indicate less precisely or unequivocally what the subject of the article is? john k 11:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- I am trying to avoid a straight cut an paste from here so I won't go into all the details. The subjective consideration of what is "ambiguous" or not (as demonstrated on this talk page) is rife with a US Centric bias. What is so obvious and familiar to us might not be so to a middle school student in South Africa. An effective title should convey precisely what the article is about and not require the reader to have to read the BODY of the article to figure it out. (Especially if they already had some initial awareness that a city exist). For a wiki reader who is not familiar with disambiguation or primary topic, how effective is the single city topic in conveying the subject of the article is ACTUALLY the city article and not one of the several other things that share a name with those cities. Remember, titles are for the benefit of readers and not editors. Agne 18:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- This is completely wrong.
- An effective title should convey precisely what the article is about and not require the reader to have to read the BODY of the article to figure it out.
- According to WP:TITLE:
- Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
- I think you should take your preference to what a title should convey to WP:TITLE.--DaveOinSF 18:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well you have the fundamental and fatal flaw that calling something by CITY, STATE title is uncommon. On what scale? Verbal speaking? Print? (I wonder about those business cards, signs, letterheads, etc). The "Common Name" argument doesn't invalidate the City, State convention in the slightest. It not like we discussing the difference in titling an article Dog or Canis lupus familiaris. Second, it is clearly within all practical and common sense evaluation that a title that requires you to read the BODY in order to know what page you are at is clearly not a good title. I'm sure the WP:TITLE folks would agree, but if you like we can open up a strawpoll? If a title requires the reader to have to read the BODY of the article to know if they are on the right page, is that a good or effective title? I don't know what use that would be but if you seriously disagree with that, we can go that route. Agne 18:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Google hits for "Boston" = 412 million
- Google hits for "Boston, MA" = 69 million
- Google hits for "Boston, Massachusetts" = 17.9 million
- Google hits for "Boston, Mass." = 4.4 million
- Thus, "Boston" = 412 - (69 + 17.9 + 4.4) = 320.7
- 320.7/69 = 4.7
- "Boston" is 4.7 times as common as "Boston, Massachusetts"--DaveOinSF 19:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Um...Dude any Google hit for Boston, MA and Boston, Massachusetts would hit for "Boston" as well as Boston Red Sox, Boston Bruins, Boston baked beans. I think your google hit count is a little off. :/ - Pete
- Um...Dude, that's why I subtracted hits for "Boston, MA" etc. from the total hits for "Boston", Dude.--DaveOinSF 02:34, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- And you've help demonstrate the point...they're Boston baked beans, not Boston, Massachusetts baked beans.--DaveOinSF 02:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Dude, I still think your google foo is crossed up. There are hundreds of things with Boston in the title (even that English Boston town and the boy band). I don't care either way about City or City & State whatever but the google hit thing is ridiculous, Dog. Hits for "Baked Beans" don't jack about whether people call a city Boston or Boston, MA-whatever. In fact, my boys from up there don't even call it neither. They say they from "Boss-Mass". Maybe they should put that on the baked beans - Pete
- OK, Dude, how about, dude, 287million hits, dude, for "San Francisco"; "61.3 million", dude, hits for, dude, "San Francisco, CA"; and, dude, 12.4 million hits for "San Francisco, California", dude. That makes 287-61.3-12.4=213.3million hits for "San Francisco", about 18 times more common, dude, than "San Francisco, California". So the google hits for "Boston" were probably an underestimation, dude.--DaveOinSF 04:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC) (I can hear the song now..."I left my heart in San Francisco, California")
- Dude, You still have no bearings on legit Google Foo, man. You're trying to prove a point with a crooked arrow that's twice bent. How many of those "San Fran" hits are for the city of San Francisco and not for the San Fran sports teams? Or that extra special "San Francisco treat?" Without going through all milly of them you can't tell. Same with the Boston. You can try to finger paint whatever picture you want to make but you looking really silly dude when you try to cook Google to fit your picture. Let me try to make it elementary for you Unless your search word is exclusive to one usage or you can effectively eliminate all other false-positives usages with boolean perimeters, you look like an idiot trying to throw around Google hits to prove your point. It's like using the google hits for "Star" and trying to say that they prove that the shinny thing in the sky is the most common usage. - Pete —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.157.110.11 (talk • contribs) 12:30, October 29, 2006 (UTC)
- Dude, references to the San Francisco 49ers and the San Francisco Giants are references to the city of San Francisco. So are references to the University of San Francisco. These usages are not in competition with each other - references to things named after the city are also references to the city. john k 13:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- That means jack to the point that my Bro Dave is trying to say. The fact that the 49ers are the San Francisco 49ers instead of the San Francisco, California 49ers doesn't jive with anything other then a sport's team markerting. I was digging that Dave was fishing for support for the City name thing instead of City & State. So what does markerting (like Boston Bake beans) have to do with what a Wikipedia article is called? They're jonesing for other priorities and thing that have nothing to do with an encyclopedia. The only things that seem to matter to *this deal* is context that refer to situations where there is equal reason to choose to call THE CITY either it's name all alone or with the State tagging along. There is no equal reason to what goes on a sport's team jersey or a can of baked beans so the G-hits on stuff like that doesn't support Davey's point. Now if he wants to read through all those milly of g-hits and see what actually refers to the City context then that's one thing. But wavy pointless G-hits like a panty raid trophy is kinda dumb and only shows a lack of understanding in how to use Google. - Pete
- Dude, references to the San Francisco 49ers and the San Francisco Giants are references to the city of San Francisco. So are references to the University of San Francisco. These usages are not in competition with each other - references to things named after the city are also references to the city. john k 13:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Dude, You still have no bearings on legit Google Foo, man. You're trying to prove a point with a crooked arrow that's twice bent. How many of those "San Fran" hits are for the city of San Francisco and not for the San Fran sports teams? Or that extra special "San Francisco treat?" Without going through all milly of them you can't tell. Same with the Boston. You can try to finger paint whatever picture you want to make but you looking really silly dude when you try to cook Google to fit your picture. Let me try to make it elementary for you Unless your search word is exclusive to one usage or you can effectively eliminate all other false-positives usages with boolean perimeters, you look like an idiot trying to throw around Google hits to prove your point. It's like using the google hits for "Star" and trying to say that they prove that the shinny thing in the sky is the most common usage. - Pete —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.157.110.11 (talk • contribs) 12:30, October 29, 2006 (UTC)
- OK, Dude, how about, dude, 287million hits, dude, for "San Francisco"; "61.3 million", dude, hits for, dude, "San Francisco, CA"; and, dude, 12.4 million hits for "San Francisco, California", dude. That makes 287-61.3-12.4=213.3million hits for "San Francisco", about 18 times more common, dude, than "San Francisco, California". So the google hits for "Boston" were probably an underestimation, dude.--DaveOinSF 04:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC) (I can hear the song now..."I left my heart in San Francisco, California")
- Dude, I still think your google foo is crossed up. There are hundreds of things with Boston in the title (even that English Boston town and the boy band). I don't care either way about City or City & State whatever but the google hit thing is ridiculous, Dog. Hits for "Baked Beans" don't jack about whether people call a city Boston or Boston, MA-whatever. In fact, my boys from up there don't even call it neither. They say they from "Boss-Mass". Maybe they should put that on the baked beans - Pete
- Um...Dude any Google hit for Boston, MA and Boston, Massachusetts would hit for "Boston" as well as Boston Red Sox, Boston Bruins, Boston baked beans. I think your google hit count is a little off. :/ - Pete
- Well you have the fundamental and fatal flaw that calling something by CITY, STATE title is uncommon. On what scale? Verbal speaking? Print? (I wonder about those business cards, signs, letterheads, etc). The "Common Name" argument doesn't invalidate the City, State convention in the slightest. It not like we discussing the difference in titling an article Dog or Canis lupus familiaris. Second, it is clearly within all practical and common sense evaluation that a title that requires you to read the BODY in order to know what page you are at is clearly not a good title. I'm sure the WP:TITLE folks would agree, but if you like we can open up a strawpoll? If a title requires the reader to have to read the BODY of the article to know if they are on the right page, is that a good or effective title? I don't know what use that would be but if you seriously disagree with that, we can go that route. Agne 18:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- You are saying that the title should contain the context of the subject of the article not just the name of the subject. Note that the comma convention is not as dominant in other parts of the world. One would have to be already familiar with the convention and the U.S. states to gain the benefit you imply. For example, "Hartford, Connecticut" is not necessarily meaningful to someone not already familiar with the US naming convention and the state of Connecticut. "Hartford (city in the U.S. state of Connecticut)" would have to be the title in order for your context benefit to apply. --Polaron | Talk 18:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Incorrect. If I was saying that the title should contain the context then I would be saying an article should be titled Seattle (City) since the context of that article is that it is about a City versus the article about the Indian Chief. Rather, I'm arguing that it is an accurate and precise description of the location at the coordinates 47.61° -122.33° is Seattle, Washington. It's consistent and leaves no room for ambiguity, allowing the reader who comes across this page to know EXACTLY whether or not they are at the right page.Agne 18:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- How does one know it is a city without already knowing the US city naming convention? Could it be a county, a metro area, an airport, some other object in Washington, a neighborhood in a city called Washington, some object called "Seattle, Washington"? There is no substantial benefit from the comma convention when the name of the object is unique or the primary topic. And that is all what the proposal is. It is not seeking to abolish the convention for the vast majority of city articles. --Polaron | Talk 19:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Incorrect. If I was saying that the title should contain the context then I would be saying an article should be titled Seattle (City) since the context of that article is that it is about a City versus the article about the Indian Chief. Rather, I'm arguing that it is an accurate and precise description of the location at the coordinates 47.61° -122.33° is Seattle, Washington. It's consistent and leaves no room for ambiguity, allowing the reader who comes across this page to know EXACTLY whether or not they are at the right page.Agne 18:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- This is completely wrong.
- I am trying to avoid a straight cut an paste from here so I won't go into all the details. The subjective consideration of what is "ambiguous" or not (as demonstrated on this talk page) is rife with a US Centric bias. What is so obvious and familiar to us might not be so to a middle school student in South Africa. An effective title should convey precisely what the article is about and not require the reader to have to read the BODY of the article to figure it out. (Especially if they already had some initial awareness that a city exist). For a wiki reader who is not familiar with disambiguation or primary topic, how effective is the single city topic in conveying the subject of the article is ACTUALLY the city article and not one of the several other things that share a name with those cities. Remember, titles are for the benefit of readers and not editors. Agne 18:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Not Yet/Oppose I like this proposal less than the one that involved the AP cities. I don't see any benefit to making the default just "city name". If the convention is going to move away from City, State, in my opinion the exceptions need to be clearly defined and limited. The proposal as it's currently written makes the cases where just the city name is used subjective. Where is the line for "unquestionably?" Is the name unique, because it's truly unique or no one realized that there was a town in Montana with 52 people that also had the same name? -- The Bethling(Talk) 02:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- The default is still "city, state". It just allows "city" as the title if it can be shown that the name is either unique or is the primary topic of the term. It's still up to the move requesters to justify moves. Would you rather have a set list of cities? We could probably include that as well since a few other people have indicated so. --Polaron | Talk 02:48, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose (as written). I admit I'm taking the proposer's previous proposals into account, but I believe he would request amendments to the point that we wouldn't know whether a move should be done. Neutral/not yet on tariq's proposal. (And there is a significant difference between them). — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 05:38, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- What would you like to see changed in the proposal for it to become acceptable? Do you want to specify a set of cities that will definitely be moved (as in tariq's proposal)? --Polaron | Talk 05:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- tariq's proposal is enough of a compromise between what I think would be good for the encyclopedia (which is essentially, the current status) and the other proposals here. The list of cities is not important to me, but tariq's intial paragraph seems significantly different to me than Serge's.
- tariq: However, if a major city has a unique name or is unquestionably the most significant subject sharing its name, such as Chicago and Philadelphia, it can reside at a disambiguated location, without the state.
- Serge: Cities which either have unique names or are unquestionably the most significant place sharing their name, can have undisambiguated titles (e.g., New York City, Philadelphia, Chicago).
- There are other differences, but I don't think I would accept anything much different than tariq's proposal. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 06:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Also, the sentence about disambiguation in the current proposal would have to go. The "default" should be [[City, State]], and there should be justification required for the move in the unqualified name. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 06:17, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- tariq's proposal is enough of a compromise between what I think would be good for the encyclopedia (which is essentially, the current status) and the other proposals here. The list of cities is not important to me, but tariq's intial paragraph seems significantly different to me than Serge's.
- What would you like to see changed in the proposal for it to become acceptable? Do you want to specify a set of cities that will definitely be moved (as in tariq's proposal)? --Polaron | Talk 05:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- This is long and confusing. Is the question regarding how US cities will appear in the text of articles or how articles and categories on US cities be named or both? And is there an 'international standard' or should there be, and not special standards for individual countries? Thanks Hmains 00:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Not Yet is my vote only because Tariq's proposal is not open (which I would support were it open). If Serge's proposal is changed to conform with Tariq's proposal, then I would change my vote. However, there are many votes cast on the current proposal, and we might see confusion if Serge's proposal were to change. I'll watch the page and try to keep up, but there's a lot going on here. I think it's better to keep one proposal at a time. (And while I've supported the comma convention until this point, we must stop these repeated discussions across who knows how many pages.) --ishu 04:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Discussion -2
This appears to be the exact same proposal that didn't get consensus in August, Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)/U.S. convention change (August 2006)#Not to be Mr.-Let's-Do-a-Straw-Poll. -Will Beback 17:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Actually that version got 9 votes of support (including 2nd choices) and only 3 opposing. Plus, it was only an informal straw poll. --Serge 18:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
At the risk of sounding conceited...
- The active proposal, if any, is Tariq's. The refactoring has obscured discussion. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that there's a ridiculous number of proposals at the moment, and that Tariq's is probably the best at the moment. john k 00:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- As it stands, I still don't think any of the proposals are adequate. Tariq's seems the best, except that we ... — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Unlike the "Modest Proposal", this one does not even define which cities are "unquestionably the most significant place sharing their name" ... -Will Beback 17:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Note that my proposal included the list of cites in the Modest Proposal.
My point essentially is, I'm not sure why Serge decided to close all the other discussions – the original one by john k and mine which at least a couple people thought was good – in favor of his own, which essentially is a carbon copy of the August proposal. Again, I don't mean to sound conceited, but I feel we should have stayed with my proposal (which is in some ways a merge of john k's proposal and the Serge / August proposal). Alternatively, we could look at both john's proposal and the Serge / August proposal and discuss them simulataneously. The two operate independently of each other and so one could be approved while the other is rejected. -- tariqabjotu 20:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- I opened my formal proposal in response to John's own wondering in writing about whether it was time to open a formal proposal apparently indicating his informal "modest proposal" had accomplished what he intended. My formal proposal, which began as a merger of the U.S. and Canada guidelines, was designed to be evolutionary to reach a consensus. That's why I had "Support" and "Not Yet" sections. You opened your proposal while that proposal was still active, then people complained about too many open proposals. I agree it would have been ideal for more neutral parties to close the proposals, but no one was doing it. Also, the other "proposals" were all informal, including yours, where you were simply seeking comment. I'm just trying to bring focus to one formal proposal, which I explained above in the Oppose section under Will's vote includes major compromises with respect to my position so we can make some progress here. I encourage you to vote "not yet" if that's how you feel and specify what changes, ideally and at a minimum, you would require to support this or any proposal. Thanks. --Serge 20:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Serge, my comment was on, er, whether we should have a formal vote on my proposal. I certainly wasn't suggesting that we have a formal vote on an entirely different proposal. I don't mind, per se, discussing other proposals, and mine, I think, clearly didn't receive consensus, but it's deeply confusing to start up another proposal in the middle of an ongoing one, especially if said proposal is identical to a failed proposal of a couple of months ago. john k 21:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- I started up a formal proposal to make a change as your informal proposal was, by your own words, winding down. Why propose something formal that was not achieving consensus even informally? Based on what others were saying, I thought a merger of the U.S. and Canada guidelines should be formally proposed, so I did. I also did it in the "evolutionary" format which I hoped would help us move towards consensus. Indeed, it was made abundantly obvious that the merger idea was a flop, but retaining the Canadian words seemed acceptable; so I modified the proposal accordingly. This was met immediately with votes of support... signs that we're moving in the right direction. During that process, Tariq made yet another informal proposal (asking for comments not votes of support), and mostly based on yours which was not achieving consensus, that really confused things. Finally, the current proposal is not based on a failed proposal! It was an informal straw poll, not formal, but with 9 support and only 3 opposing, that's hardly a "failed proposal"! --Serge 21:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Serge, my comment was on, er, whether we should have a formal vote on my proposal. I certainly wasn't suggesting that we have a formal vote on an entirely different proposal. I don't mind, per se, discussing other proposals, and mine, I think, clearly didn't receive consensus, but it's deeply confusing to start up another proposal in the middle of an ongoing one, especially if said proposal is identical to a failed proposal of a couple of months ago. john k 21:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Also, many people, including Tariq, complained about things being too confusing. Please understand I'm just trying to respond to the various complaints. Forgive me if I have not managed to address everyone's complaints. Any "solution" is inevitably another person's new problem. The best we can do is minimize the inevitable problems - that's what I'm trying to do. --Serge 20:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd prefer to vote on Tariq's proposal, which I think has a considerably better chance of passing. But I imagine Serge doesn't like it because it excludes smaller cities...I seem to recall something similar happening the last time we discussed changing the convention. john k 20:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- If you register a "not yet" vote and specify the sentence from Tariq's proposal - or whatever would do it - that would allow you to support this or any proposal, that would help us make some progress here. Thanks. --Serge 20:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not registering a "not yet" vote, because I think your proposal is perfectly adequate as is. I think it would be more likely to pass, however, if, as in Tariq's proposal, small cities were actively excluded. I also liked that Tariq's proposal specifically mentioned the 27 unambiguous AP cities as being candidates for immediate moving as a result of the vote on the new convention. john k 18:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Serge, perhaps it's time you update the proposal based on some of the comments by the not yet and/or oppose commenters. Simply responding to and refuting these comments is okay, but I feel it would be better if you tried to address some of the points that have been brought up by multiple editors. -- tariqabjotu 23:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Let's give folks a week or so to register their comments, then see where we are. I'm sensitive to the possibity of making even a relatively small change, and having to face arguments that all of the voting has to restart. If we do that, and require everyone to refresh their votes, I'd like to have a version that meets the requirements of a consensus. By the way, if it gets to that, I would appreciate help notifying all those who had voted before to be notified that they had to vote again. --Serge 15:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's probably a good time to make some changes here; there's no need to wait much longer. Oppose comments are starting to flurry in, and many of them cite issues that were brought up long ago. There is no reason to continue to refrain from updating the proposal (and starting from scratch). -- tariqabjotu 02:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted that the pipe trick now works on commas - in other words, [[Buffalo, NY|]] becomes Buffalo. I have no opinion on this naming convention, since I will continue to link with the state abbreviation either way. --NE2 23:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Whoa, the pipe trick works with commas?! That's terrific! john k 19:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Compromising your ideal?
For the record, is this proposal a compromise from what you believe would be the ideal U.S. city guideline? If so, how? --Serge 23:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Proposing and supporting this change is a big compromise for someone like me, whose ideal U.S. city guideline would be something like:
- Like with virtually all Wikipedia articles, use the most common name of the article's subject (i.e., city alone) unless the name is not unique or is not unquestionably the primary use of that name. When disambiguation is required, specify the name of the city's state in parentheses (e.g., Portland (Maine)), or the name of the county and state when necessary (e.g., Elgin (Lancaster County, South Carolina) and Elgin (Kershaw County, South Carolina)).
- --Serge 23:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Why would you possibly want to do that, when that is completely inconsistant with what any American would expect to see? Is this simply an attempt at making sure that Americans can't find these articles, so that they can then eventually be deleted? User:Zoe|(talk) 19:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree with Serge's proposed standard, too, but this is just ridiculous. Where on earth are you getting that from? john k 00:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think she means that any American would expect to find Portland, Maine at that location [or possibly Portland ME, but we shouldn't do that]. If so, I agree. Septentrionalis 03:37, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- I don't understand the objection. Per the guidelines that I ultimately favor (as opposed to the Canadianish ones I proposed), all cities would be found either at Cityname, or would be listed on a disambiguation page titled with Cityname. So to find Portland, you would type in Portland, which would take you to a dab page titled Portland, on which you could click on Portland (Maine) (or Portland (Oregon), or whatever), which would take you to the article entitled Portland (Maine). Also, if you did type Portland, Maine, that would redirect you to Portland (Maine). How would this contribute to users being unable to find articles? This a red herring objection, since finding articles is not an issue among these various conventions, thanks to redirects. --Serge 04:19, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- I think she means that any American would expect to find Portland, Maine at that location [or possibly Portland ME, but we shouldn't do that]. If so, I agree. Septentrionalis 03:37, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree with Serge's proposed standard, too, but this is just ridiculous. Where on earth are you getting that from? john k 00:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Why would you possibly want to do that, when that is completely inconsistant with what any American would expect to see? Is this simply an attempt at making sure that Americans can't find these articles, so that they can then eventually be deleted? User:Zoe|(talk) 19:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Curious Observation in the support votes in the above
In the formal/informal/discussion/poll/thingie above above, all the support votes seem to be for "philosophical" and "editorial" reasons and not practical reasons based on how it would benefit the article. There has been no demonstration that
- That there is some harm that is being done to US city articles with the current City, State title
- OR conversely there is substantial benefit to the article with the CITYNAME only title
What benefit is being offer that exist on a practical level? Philosophies and editorial judgement changes with the passing editor base but real, practical applications are constant. The only practical concern that was brought up is that it take longer to type the full name but the practical application of redirect solves that concern. Agne 18:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- The good is having simpler, shorter titles that are easier to find, and that make US city articles look like articles on cities elsewhere in the world. It is avoiding ugly, unnecessary titles like Los Angeles, California. The main point is the same basic issue of consistency that you are using to argue in the opposite direction. Your whole purpose with all this business seems to be to claim that the arguments of those of us who disagree with you aren't valid
- How is it easier to find? If you want to find Seattle, Washington you can still type Seattle into the search engine and find the same page. Second, considering the US naming convention covers more articles then the other countries convention, what influence should these "smaller scope" conventions have? In terms of scope, they are actually the "exception". The merit of the US convention (and the thousand of articles it covers) should be evaluated on it's own and maybe it will have an influence on the "small countries scope". My claim is there is a philosophical and editorial disagreement with the City, State convention (which is good and fine to have) but that there are no practical reasons to shelve it. There is no "harm" to the articles with the current City, State convention and there is no "benefit" to a CITYNAME only convention--it only "looks" better to it's proponent. If we are going to expell all this effort with page moves and discussion and debate then there should at least be a tangible benefit that enhances the reader's experience with Wikipedia. So what is in it for the reader? Agne 18:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- It would have the benefit that US cities with international recognition would be titled in the same way as other similar cities in the rest of the world. With regards to "harm", there is also no harm to naming the an article George Walker Bush. So why is it at George W. Bush? --Polaron | Talk 18:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Agne, the fact that you don't agree with me doesn't mean that I haven't provided you with reasons why I support this position. All it means is that you don't agree with my reasons. What "benefit" is there to any page name over another? My purpose is that articles that meet the definition of a "primary topic" should have their article there, as Wikipedia:Disambiguation suggests. What is the practical benefit to have the article where they are now? This whole line of questioning is simply question begging. john k 19:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- How is it easier to find? If you want to find Seattle, Washington you can still type Seattle into the search engine and find the same page. Second, considering the US naming convention covers more articles then the other countries convention, what influence should these "smaller scope" conventions have? In terms of scope, they are actually the "exception". The merit of the US convention (and the thousand of articles it covers) should be evaluated on it's own and maybe it will have an influence on the "small countries scope". My claim is there is a philosophical and editorial disagreement with the City, State convention (which is good and fine to have) but that there are no practical reasons to shelve it. There is no "harm" to the articles with the current City, State convention and there is no "benefit" to a CITYNAME only convention--it only "looks" better to it's proponent. If we are going to expell all this effort with page moves and discussion and debate then there should at least be a tangible benefit that enhances the reader's experience with Wikipedia. So what is in it for the reader? Agne 18:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- The good is having simpler, shorter titles that are easier to find, and that make US city articles look like articles on cities elsewhere in the world. It is avoiding ugly, unnecessary titles like Los Angeles, California. The main point is the same basic issue of consistency that you are using to argue in the opposite direction. Your whole purpose with all this business seems to be to claim that the arguments of those of us who disagree with you aren't valid
- You are correct, there is no significant practical benefit of the proposed guideline over the current guideline, nor is there a significant practical benefit of the current guideline over the proposed guideline. --Serge 04:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well, the US convention avoids renaming issues like the current one being discussed for Cork. Vegaswikian 04:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Each move request would have to be evaluated on its merits as to whether the name is unique or is the primary topic. If the proponents of a move cannot convince others that it is a primary topic, then the default would be the "city,state" style. But at least, the debate now will be on the merits. --Polaron | Talk 04:12, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- No it doesn't. With the US convention in place, what do you think the page Buffalo is? It cannot be the city in New York, but it also cannot be the animal. It's a disambiguation page. Without the US convention in place, guess what, Buffalo will continue to be a disambiguation page.--DaveOinSF 05:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- And what about Miami? It's a redirect to Miami, Florida, despite the fact that there is an indigenous North American tribe, several schools and a language all also named Miami. Even today, with the convention in place, a city must demonstrate that its use of a name is more prominent than any other use of the name, and if it is, that name redirects to the city article at City, State. Otherwise, the best it can hope for is that the article City redirects to a disambiguation page.--DaveOinSF 05:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Miami should redirect to Miami (disambiguation). BlankVerse 12:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- I tend to agree; {{sofixit}}. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 13:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- The city is a primary topic. There's tons of things called Rome, too, and tons of things called London, and tons of things called Paris, and so on and so forth ad infinitum. In particular, the idea that a university named for the city (that is, the University of Miami, not Miami University, which competes, but is clearly beaten out by the city in Florida for primary topic status) can somehow compete for primary topic status with the city itself is absurd. What about the University of Paris, the University of Heidelberg, the University of Bologna, the University of Padua? john k 13:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Miami should redirect to Miami (disambiguation). BlankVerse 12:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, wait, there is a perfectly easy practical benefit to this, which is that we can link directly to [[Boston]] rather than [[Boston, Massachusetts|Boston]]. This seems like at least as much of a practical benefit as any practical benefit of the current "consistency." john k 00:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Boston is already a redirect for Boston, Massachusetts. So from an editting standpoint, your practical benefit is already in place. What's the practical benefit of the article being named Boston over it being named Boston, Massachusetts? This holds true for most cities that are commonly known outside the US. --Bobblehead 01:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Linking directly is always preferred, even if not mandatory. The little "redirected from" line at the top is ugly. john k 23:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- That is a subjective "style" editorial view. Other editors do not view that as ugly and in fact it has the real practical benefit of confirming for the reader that the page that they have arrived at is the page the wanted. Agne 20:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- The present system makes it easier to link directly. If changed, we will have to guess (or preview and click) to be sure whether Matawan is the direct link, or whether it's been disambiguated to Matawan, New Jersey. (which is partly remembering how Mattawan, Michigan and Matteawan, New York are spelled; do I have them right?) Septentrionalis 00:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well, one can always use the redirect if one isn't sure, with no extra time over the current status quo. john k 11:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Linking directly is always preferred, even if not mandatory. The little "redirected from" line at the top is ugly. john k 23:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- There's no need for scare quotes around "editorial" when discussing the decisions of editors. (nor around "philosophical" when discussing how the presentation of knowledge might benefit from those decisions.) --Dystopos 16:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Um...Dystopos, there are other uses of quotes mark in the world outside of being considered "scare quotes"--like when you are using words that cover a broad spectrum of applications but don't want to give the impression that you are narrowly defining them.Agne 04:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Agne, what do you see as being the practical benefit of the current convention? Because I don't see one. Bearcat 02:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Sure. The long explanation is here. The short and sweet is 1.) Consistency (EVERY US city and state can be consistantly follow the City, State convention.) 2.) Stability (Assuming we strengthen the language in the naming convention and remove the exception loophole. Nothing is guarantee 100% stable in a wiki but the City, State convention has the highest potential offering of stability then any other convention.) 3.) History (There is a reason why we are called the United States) and 4.) Precision (No worry about readers wondering what the heck an Assawoman is and also no need for debating how "well known" or "ambiguous" something is). Agne 04:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- (1) What about consistency with the conventions in place for the rest of the world? That's a more important consideration than internal consistency on a convention that's the opposite of everywhere else. (2) People already quite regularly link to undisambiguated city-only titles, even where the city-only titles are disambiguation pages or communities elsewhere in the world. This takes a lot of work to clean up, if it gets cleaned up at all...which it often doesn't. So stability isn't especially well-served by things as they stand now. (3) What, exactly, does this have to do with the question of what an article title should be? (4) Where, exactly, does the proposed convention suggest or even imply that Assawoman would have to be moved? It's a ridiculous example to cite against a policy proposal that exists primarily to serve major, internationally-famous cities like New York City, Boston or Chicago. Have you ever heard of the straw man fallacy? Bearcat 16:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- 1.) The US convention is presumeably the largest (in terms of articles affected) naming convention. What makes these other smaller country conventions "correct"? Furthermore, the US has the state element because of how intimately connected states are in US history and to city, identity. That is an element that is not present in other countries. Additionally, the consistency mentioned is internal consistency within the convention. (Something the Canadian convention is lacking) Every US city can be consistent and be titled at City, State. 2.) Changing redirects and top billing on a disambig page are not the same as page move requests, which are certainly more serious to a degree. When editors start disagreeing over how "well known" something is or what should be the primary topic (Like Cork in the Irish naming convention which is an EXCELLENT example) you get instability. The Irish are following Serge's ideal convention and this shows perfect well there is no hope for stability with it as long as subjective standards of "well known" and "primary topic" are used. Show us how the "Cityname" only standard can avoid things like the instability of Cork and you maybe onto something. 3.) Simply, the faulty "common names" argument assumes that calling location City, State is uncommon which is simply not the case. In the US we have a strong identity to the individual states and are in fact a federation of States. There is even more intimate of a connection between a City and its state then to the greater country as a whole. The City, State convention acknowledged this facet of both history and identity which is why it is QUITE proper to have US cities titled at City, State. 4.) As John notes below, this is a very real aspect of Serge's proposal.Agne 20:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- That is why any proposed moves have to be justified. If it has a potential naming issue with another significant topic, then we use the default "city,state". Also note the countries that have states as subdivisions (India, Germany, Australia) typically have major cities without the state name. --Polaron | Talk 21:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- The situation with states and cities in India and Germany is quite different from that in the U.S.. For one thing the borders have been redrawn repeatedly over the last hundred years, so there is not the same stability as political entities as the states of the U.S. Even more important, they do no have anywhere near the level of duplication of city names that happens across the U.S. -Will Beback 22:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- And the Germans have a different standard, widely accepted, means of dealing with their duplicate names, which we should also follow in general; as exemplified by Frankfurt am Main vs Frankfurt an der Oder. (There are complications which this particular example, I know; but it's the most well known. I agree that Frankfurt am Main should, exceptionally, be at Frankfurt.) Septentrionalis 23:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- A similar system has been used in the U.K., for example, Newcastle-on-Clun, Newcastle-under-Lyme, and Newcastle upon Tyne. -Will Beback 00:14, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Yes but all these places (even the UK where the main subdivisions are historically more independent than US states) have their major cities without the higher level subdivision. --Polaron | Talk 00:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Polaron misses the point here: In Germany they disambiguate by rivers; in the United States, they disambiguate by states. In both cases, we should follow suit (as far as English does).
- Huh? I said in other countries that have states as subdivisions, their major cities do not have any disambiguator. Then you say, "but in these countries, they disambiguate by <whatever>". Then I reply, but even then, their major cities are still undisambiguated. Then you day, "Polaron misses the point". I am not the one misisng the point. You are saying that most cities in other parts of the world are disambiguated by some means. I am not disputing that. Most cities do need disambiguation. All I'm saying is, virtually all countries have their major cities using the city name alone. If I am missing your point, what is your point? --Polaron | Talk 03:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Historically more independent than US States? Depends on which higher division you're thinking of. Scotland? Probably, but it depends. Wales? Usually not. Cheshire or Banff, which are what is used for disambiguation? Never. Septentrionalis 03:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Yes but all these places (even the UK where the main subdivisions are historically more independent than US states) have their major cities without the higher level subdivision. --Polaron | Talk 00:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- A similar system has been used in the U.K., for example, Newcastle-on-Clun, Newcastle-under-Lyme, and Newcastle upon Tyne. -Will Beback 00:14, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- And the Germans have a different standard, widely accepted, means of dealing with their duplicate names, which we should also follow in general; as exemplified by Frankfurt am Main vs Frankfurt an der Oder. (There are complications which this particular example, I know; but it's the most well known. I agree that Frankfurt am Main should, exceptionally, be at Frankfurt.) Septentrionalis 23:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- The situation with states and cities in India and Germany is quite different from that in the U.S.. For one thing the borders have been redrawn repeatedly over the last hundred years, so there is not the same stability as political entities as the states of the U.S. Even more important, they do no have anywhere near the level of duplication of city names that happens across the U.S. -Will Beback 22:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- That is why any proposed moves have to be justified. If it has a potential naming issue with another significant topic, then we use the default "city,state". Also note the countries that have states as subdivisions (India, Germany, Australia) typically have major cities without the state name. --Polaron | Talk 21:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- The Assawoman straw man is why I wish we could be voting on Tariq's proposal, as it prevents people from making silly arguments like that. Of course Serge won't let us vote on any proposal that sets an arbitrary size limit on which cities don't have to be at City, State, so Agne will be able to keep making these silly arguments, and we'll never change the damned convention. john k 17:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- There is merit to Tariq's proposal that is certainly absent in Serge's. With Serge (and the current "exceptions loophole") the possibilities of Assawoman type articles are quite real since they are undoubtly unambiguious and the "primary topic" of the name. There was also merit to your "tongue in cheek" proposal that included the "We never talk about this again" part because as Polaron has alluded to underneath nearly every Oppose/Not Yet votes that with Serge's proposal can we expect to see more of the same page move request from City to City as we try to iron out what is ambiguious and what is the primary topic, etc. Agne 20:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- I also said that if people want a specific small list of cities, then we should alter the proposal should accomodate that. In practice, I don't think anyone would propose moving minor cities even with the current wording as it has virtually no chance of succeeding. Would you be willing to compromise on the naming style if we explicitly list which cities can be moved? --Polaron | Talk 21:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Size is not a good metric for using only the city name. As pointed out above, for some cities, the city name may best be a redirect to something other then then city. The problem with discussing individual cases is that emotions usually enter the discussion and as a result the decision may not be rational. That leads to bad decisions and more votes/polls. Having clear criteria that is objective and common across the entire encylopedia is important. I'm starting to believe that the best solution for all city articles is to name the article 'name, higher level of government' and link it as '[[name, higher level of government|]]'. Then limit the exceptions to capitals. This allows short entiries in the articles as they are read anda fuller definition of where the place is for those that are not sure. Vegaswikian 23:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Everyone keeps saying something like this, and nobody is actually willing to propose it formally. I say let's do it. Put your money where your mouth is, and write a proposal that all cities need to be pre-disambiguated by "higher level of government". Figure out criteria for how we determine which "higher level of government" to use. We clear out all the junk here, and hold a clear vote on the thing. And when you guys lose that vote overwhelmingly, can we then discuss the actual feasible way to have US conventions be in line with the rest of the world? john k 01:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'm game to have a go at drafting something later today or on the weekend, but it might become the third poll on this page again (Serge's above still, and Tariq's new one below). --Scott Davis Talk 06:07, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Please start the poll at a subpage, say Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)/your name for the poll. That way it will be a shorter page and might be easier to follow discussions. Vegaswikian 06:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'm game to have a go at drafting something later today or on the weekend, but it might become the third poll on this page again (Serge's above still, and Tariq's new one below). --Scott Davis Talk 06:07, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Also, nobody is saying that size alone is a good metric for using only the city name. We are saying size+non-ambiguity/primary topic status. john k 01:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Which is very difficult to definitively state without listing the actual cities in the guideline itself. By the way, what harm is there in having Assawoman at Assawoman? Because you can't tell it's a city from just the name. So what? Since when is being able to recognize the kind of thing an article subject is from the article title a Wikipedia requirement or even desire? --Serge 01:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- But if you link it as Assawoman then you can get the information by moving the cursor over the link. Vegaswikian 01:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Which you can do regardless of how the article is titled (because you can link to the redirect). For example: Philadelphia. --Serge 04:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- OK, your point is? That's the example I just used. If the article in your example is at Philadelphia, how many would actually link it as Philadelphia? The only case I would do that was if I was linking it as Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. 05:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Which you can do regardless of how the article is titled (because you can link to the redirect). For example: Philadelphia. --Serge 04:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- But if you link it as Assawoman then you can get the information by moving the cursor over the link. Vegaswikian 01:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Which is very difficult to definitively state without listing the actual cities in the guideline itself. By the way, what harm is there in having Assawoman at Assawoman? Because you can't tell it's a city from just the name. So what? Since when is being able to recognize the kind of thing an article subject is from the article title a Wikipedia requirement or even desire? --Serge 01:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Everyone keeps saying something like this, and nobody is actually willing to propose it formally. I say let's do it. Put your money where your mouth is, and write a proposal that all cities need to be pre-disambiguated by "higher level of government". Figure out criteria for how we determine which "higher level of government" to use. We clear out all the junk here, and hold a clear vote on the thing. And when you guys lose that vote overwhelmingly, can we then discuss the actual feasible way to have US conventions be in line with the rest of the world? john k 01:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- There is merit to Tariq's proposal that is certainly absent in Serge's. With Serge (and the current "exceptions loophole") the possibilities of Assawoman type articles are quite real since they are undoubtly unambiguious and the "primary topic" of the name. There was also merit to your "tongue in cheek" proposal that included the "We never talk about this again" part because as Polaron has alluded to underneath nearly every Oppose/Not Yet votes that with Serge's proposal can we expect to see more of the same page move request from City to City as we try to iron out what is ambiguious and what is the primary topic, etc. Agne 20:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- 1.) The US convention is presumeably the largest (in terms of articles affected) naming convention. What makes these other smaller country conventions "correct"? Furthermore, the US has the state element because of how intimately connected states are in US history and to city, identity. That is an element that is not present in other countries. Additionally, the consistency mentioned is internal consistency within the convention. (Something the Canadian convention is lacking) Every US city can be consistent and be titled at City, State. 2.) Changing redirects and top billing on a disambig page are not the same as page move requests, which are certainly more serious to a degree. When editors start disagreeing over how "well known" something is or what should be the primary topic (Like Cork in the Irish naming convention which is an EXCELLENT example) you get instability. The Irish are following Serge's ideal convention and this shows perfect well there is no hope for stability with it as long as subjective standards of "well known" and "primary topic" are used. Show us how the "Cityname" only standard can avoid things like the instability of Cork and you maybe onto something. 3.) Simply, the faulty "common names" argument assumes that calling location City, State is uncommon which is simply not the case. In the US we have a strong identity to the individual states and are in fact a federation of States. There is even more intimate of a connection between a City and its state then to the greater country as a whole. The City, State convention acknowledged this facet of both history and identity which is why it is QUITE proper to have US cities titled at City, State. 4.) As John notes below, this is a very real aspect of Serge's proposal.Agne 20:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Time to close?
By my count, Serge's proposal is at 8/20/4. This is not consensus. This is never likely to be consensus. Let's close this, and move on to something else. Septentrionalis 03:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- First, I get 14 support and 14 oppose, not including any votes in the not yet section. Not sure how you got 8/20/4. What's the 8? What's the 20? What's the 4? But I that's a very a small total number of votes. By the way, the discussion continues. --Serge 06:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- I see that another proposal has opened. That's fine. I'm okay with closing this one. Canadians proves they're smarter than Americans once again. --Serge 06:38, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- I expect the 8 was a miscounted 14 support - the autonumbering had a glitch in the middle and reset partway down (now fixed). The 20 Would be the 14 votes in the "Oppose" section plus 6 "Oppose" votes in the "Not yet" section. 4 Is the remaining 4 "Not yet" votes. So it's not quite as one-sided, but still a long way from consensus to change. --Scott Davis Talk 09:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Quick Question
In looking at all the different naming conventions on the English Encyclopedia, is the US one the "largest" in terms of the number of articles it affects? I don't know if there is a way to prove that but at first assumption it seems like it would be but I don't know for sure in contrast to the number of articles on Indian cities or Canadian cities, etc. Agne 05:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Most likely, since every city, town, township, borough, village, and census-designated place in the US has an article. I don't see as it terribly matters. The default form will remain City, State, and each article will have to have an RM to be moved (unless we agree as we change the rule to also move the 27 AP cities, as Tariq has suggested, and as makes sense to me). All articles will be officially fine at City, State under the proposed change. Anyone who wants a page moved will have to request it. john k 11:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
India
I removed the India section. Was only inserted by one User. [1] Tobias Conradi (Talk) 18:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
( the next two posts by Ganeshk are from user_talk:Tobias Conradi - Tobias Conradi (Talk) 18:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC))
- I have reverted your removal of content from that page. I think a discussion is needed here. Nichalp is on wikibreak. He would be back middle of Novemeber. We can have a discussion when he returns. -- Ganeshk (talk) 18:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- The content could be removed/kept based on the result on our discussion at Talk:Hyderabad, India. Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 18:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- I see you have reverted me. I will stick to 1RR. :) -- Ganeshk (talk) 19:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- All the same... I'd like to keep that section till the poll closes. Reverting back. --hydkat 13:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Hi, I'm only requesting the relevant section be kept till the poll closes --hydkat 13:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- All the same... I'd like to keep that section till the poll closes. Reverting back. --hydkat 13:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Index:
pl ar de en es fr it arz nl ja pt ceb sv uk vi war zh ru af ast az bg zh-min-nan bn be ca cs cy da et el eo eu fa gl ko hi hr id he ka la lv lt hu mk ms min no nn ce uz kk ro simple sk sl sr sh fi ta tt th tg azb tr ur zh-yue hy my ace als am an hyw ban bjn map-bms ba be-tarask bcl bpy bar bs br cv nv eml hif fo fy ga gd gu hak ha hsb io ig ilo ia ie os is jv kn ht ku ckb ky mrj lb lij li lmo mai mg ml zh-classical mr xmf mzn cdo mn nap new ne frr oc mhr or as pa pnb ps pms nds crh qu sa sah sco sq scn si sd szl su sw tl shn te bug vec vo wa wuu yi yo diq bat-smg zu lad kbd ang smn ab roa-rup frp arc gn av ay bh bi bo bxr cbk-zam co za dag ary se pdc dv dsb myv ext fur gv gag inh ki glk gan guw xal haw rw kbp pam csb kw km kv koi kg gom ks gcr lo lbe ltg lez nia ln jbo lg mt mi tw mwl mdf mnw nqo fj nah na nds-nl nrm nov om pi pag pap pfl pcd krc kaa ksh rm rue sm sat sc trv stq nso sn cu so srn kab roa-tara tet tpi to chr tum tk tyv udm ug vep fiu-vro vls wo xh zea ty ak bm ch ny ee ff got iu ik kl mad cr pih ami pwn pnt dz rmy rn sg st tn ss ti din chy ts kcg ve
Portal di Ensiklopedia Dunia
