User talk:Stevey7788/Archive5

word order

Hi Stevey,

For future edits like this[1] (and I think a few similar recent edits), could you verify that the languages in question have subjects? Speaking of a 'subject' order is a bit problematic otherwise. Some linguists argue that O is the "subject" of ergative languages, for example, and with Oceanic languages there's often debate over whether a language is ergative or not, though admittedly when paired with O it's pretty clear that S really means A.

Thanks — kwami (talk) 05:22, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Answered on my talk page. Those families already had articles.

Also, do you think we should adopt Lynch, Ross, & Crowley (2002) as the basis for our classification? We should at least list them in the various articles, I think. — kwami (talk) 06:29, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you check Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages/Open tasks#(by family), you'll see I'm trying to get stub coverage for most of the world. The biggest gap is, not surprisingly, AN, which has about 500 to go, over half in Oceanic. I'm not going to try to write them all, but now would probably be a good time to decide which classifications we should follow for the various AN families. If we use Lynch, Ross, & Crowley for Oceanic, that's half of it. Do you have any suggestions for the rest of the family?

I've merged a few things, but at, say, Admiralty Islands languages, I don't know what all the correspondences are. We'll need some way of filling in the details from Lynch, Ross, & Crowley so that we've got full coverage. — kwami (talk) 07:00, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Question on my page for consolidating/automating the classifications in the info boxes.

You wouldn't happen to have access to Vissel's Naro dictionary, would you? It would be nice to illustrate the palatal and the voiced clicks. One of the few languages with either that has an established practical orthography. — kwami (talk) 07:36, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've merged some of the Oceanic (and other AN) articles. We used to have a separate article for nearly every clade, which seemed rather impractical. Any suggestions on which ones we should keep, and which ones are trivia that can be gotten rid of? — kwami (talk) 00:56, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

formatting

Hey,

When you add IPA, as here, could you hard format it, as here? AFAIK, IE still does not display IPA properly unless we do that. (There's a one-click short-cut at the end of the IPA options below your edit window.) — kwami (talk) 02:50, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if you specify 'none' for an ISO code, as here, that helps us track articles not supported by ISO. (As opposed to dialects of languages which (the including language) have an ISO code, and where we would not want one.) — kwami (talk) 02:55, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think all varieties listed at Ta’Oi language should be merged into that article? Currently two have separate articles, which seems inconsistent. Either that, or change the current Ta’Oi article to Ta'Oi–Kriang languages? — kwami (talk) 03:03, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cool!

It would be good to get at least the voiced clicks (dc, dq, dx, dtc) and the palatals (tc, ntc, dtc, tc’). At palatal clicks, maybe an affricated tcg, since that's important but doesn't have a separate article. That should illustrate the orthography nicely, I think; Naro uses different conventions that most click orthographies (which use g for voicing and x for affrication, rather than Naro d and g). As for which words, ones with more than one click in them can be used for more than one article, which is convenient (as well as just being more fun), and words that say s.t. about the culture w/o being stereotypes are always nice. With Nama I used one of the months, since it's a little unusual to adopt the Western calendar without adopting the names. I have some Naro up already, but it's mostly proper names, which is boring and not very enlightening (esp. when they're not names anyone would recognize), so you might want to replace them. If you're busy or get bored, you can always give me the words I'll do the formatting.

(The old orthography was ç nç dç ç’, but that was changed to tc ntc dtc tc’ for typewriter support.) — kwami (talk) 06:02, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear, you're saying Ir language and Ngeq language should be merged into Ta’Oi language, correct? — kwami (talk) 06:04, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, exactly. — Stevey7788 (talk) 06:05, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pròòngq isn't listed under Vietic languages. Should we include it as a dialect of Kri? — kwami (talk) 07:49, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Converted the numerals at Kra languages to IPA. Hopefully I didn't get it backwards. — kwami (talk) 23:26, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Naro

Hi Steve,

Looks like you might be on vacation. Were you able to get anything useful from the ILL? — kwami (talk) 23:29, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm out of town now, but when I get back I'll update the Naro article from the book I got via ILL. — Stevey7788 (talk) 10:06, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Great! — kwami (talk) 19:28, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Copy-paste moves

FYI, copying an article from one name to another screws up the page history. If you can't actually move it, you can place a request to have it moved. (Bunu, however, is not a good candidate, since it's not about Bunu.) — kwami (talk) 08:34, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, we use IPA or romanization for pronunciation on WP. So tone numbers are fine (like Cantonese tone 6), but not numbers for actual pitch values, since they have no general meaning (what is a 1 in one language may be a 3 or a 5 in another). — kwami (talk) 17:29, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've dabbled a bit in SE Asian linguistics, and I'm constantly mixing up which number is high and which is low, since I've also dabbled in African linguistics, and there the values are the opposite. I'm fine as long as I stay in one area, but switching back & forth can be a problem. — kwami (talk) 19:26, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So if some African linguistics specialist reads the Kra languages article, he wouldn't get all confused. Then he can later get used to the Chao tones through the references and external links. Got it. — Stevey7788 (talk) 19:29, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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IPA template

Could you embed IPA in the IPA template, {{IPA}}? It's available in your edit window. Some browsers (such as IE) do not display raw IPA text. — kwami (talk) 00:01, 10 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All right, I can give that a try. — Stevey7788 (talk) 14:16, 10 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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help w obscure TB lang names

Do you think you could help out ID-ing the half dozen or so remaining starred red links at Talk:Tibeto-Burman_languages#Complete_Classification_and_List_of_Languages? They're from Ethnologue 13, and I suspect many are from Ruhlen. Ethn. 14 seems to have dropped Ruhlen and abandoned many language codes. However, his book is still floating around, as are docs which repeat the Ethn.13 classification, so it would be a good idea to make those names into redirects. I'm having a hard time with some of them: Chökö, for example—no idea what that is. On the other hand, some are turning out to be quite interesting and worthy of articles: Tosu, for example, which was dropped because it's been extinct for so long (and which could be profitably expanded by s.o. who can get more recent refs).

Specifically, the problematic names are Kyao (which I found = Chau), Southern Luhupa (≠ southern variety of Luhupa), Daignet (=Dainet), Pai-lang, Chökö (Tsökö), Hila, maybe Puimei, and maybe Mon and Lho-pa, which I'm not sure I got right.

For the other two, Mili and Limi, I can ID them; it's just a matter of whether anyone has classified them (same for Lopi & Ache Yi). Also not sure about merging Kalaktang Monpa into Tshangla.

Thanks, — kwami (talk) 01:21, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Re. this edit, you left Kathu as a Bi-Ka language, so that needs to be corrected. Where does it belong? — kwami (talk) 02:22, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mondzish. According to Jerold A. Edmondson, Kathu is related to Maang and Mantsi. In Lama's scheme they would be Mondzish. — Stevey7788 (talk) 02:24, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of Kukish varieties are omitted from van Driem 2011. Do you think that's because they're not spoken in the Naga area, or because he does not accept them as distinct languages? — kwami (talk) 05:03, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It might be because he doesn't accept them as distinct languages. Anyways, Kukish languages are spoken very close to where Naga languages are spoken, as they're both spoken around the Indo-Burmese border. — Stevey7788 (talk) 05:35, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They're to the south, and it's mostly Southern Kukish he omitted (listing just one), so I was worried maybe it was regional.

What does the underline on the vowels mean at Lalo language? — kwami (talk) 05:41, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tenseness. This is very common in Lolo-Burmese languages, and also in some Austro-Asiatic languages. The underlining should definitely be explained in the Lalo language article, since it's a convention used by specialists. It's not the same as creakiness though, so it shouldn't be replaced with the IPA creakiness symbol. — Stevey7788 (talk) 05:45, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an example description of an Austro-Asiatic language with tenseness: Bugan. http://sealang.net/archives/mks/pdf/26:135-159.pdf — Stevey7788 (talk) 05:47, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was once slightly familiar with that from MK, but forget the details. It would be nice if we had the IPA equivalent, since "tense" can mean just about anything. For Bugan, it sounds like it might be ±ATR, or perhaps pharyngealization. Is it the same kind of phonation in all these languages, or does it vary regionally?

It's similar in all those SE Asian languages, though it does vary somewhat from language to language if you look at the details. Jiangjing Kuang has some publications about tenseness in Yi. http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/grads/jjkuang/JianjingKuang.htm — Stevey7788 (talk) 06:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is the classification at Samei language correct, or is that just from copying the template? We should list it in its superior node so that people navigating the trees can find everything. — kwami (talk) 05:49, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not from just copying the template. See the Sani language article - "The Sani [sa˨˩ni˨˩] call themselves [ni˨˩]. Their language is distinct from Samei, whose speakers call themselves Sani [sa˨˩ni˥˧]." The Bradley article on Sanie also confirms this. — Stevey7788 (talk) 06:04, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The most important Loloish lang we're missing is probably Naluo. There's a list of red links at Northern Loloish languages. — kwami (talk) 05:59, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Naluo is ambiguous, since Lama (2012) says it's placed in both North and Central Loloish by Bradley. — Stevey7788 (talk) 06:06, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But is it? Or are there two languages, central Naluo, and northern Naluo = Aluo? *

So you're saying Samei is unclassified, or that it's a sister to Sani? — kwami (talk) 06:15, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Samei is definitely a sister to Sani. — Stevey7788 (talk) 06:15, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. — kwami (talk) 06:37, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

* Moseley, Encyclopedia of the World's Endangered Languages, has Aluo & Naluo as synonyms

FYI: Yi languages. Very brief, but you might have s.t. to add. (That's not a hint, just a heads-up.) — kwami (talk) 17:40, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I had just edited that section a little bit. — Stevey7788 (talk) 17:41, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Heard back on Naluo, but you don't have your email enabled, & don't want to post here. — kwami (talk) 04:31, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. But if you go to 'My Preferences', you can enable your email for everyone, and no-one will see your actual address. — kwami (talk) 04:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Manide

Rd'd Camarines Norte Agta to Manide language, but they're listed as separate languages at Philippine languages. Also, it is meant to be a primary branch of Philippine? Unclassified? Forgot?

Also not clear where Dupaningan Agta is supposed to fit in. — kwami (talk) 07:30, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agta languages are inherently difficult to classify, since they are generally more divergent (often explained as due to Negrito substrata). Dupaningan Agta is Northern Luzon, but it is unclear as it to where inside that branch it fits into. Manide has just been discovered and has a lot of divergent vocabulary, so no one is sure about where it would fit in. For now it should be left unclassified within the Philippine branch. — Stevey7788 (talk) 07:35, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You also call Manide "Dupaningan" in the article. Since I don't know where that came from, I just tagged it. — kwami (talk) 07:38, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nice catch, that was a typo. — Stevey7788 (talk) 07:40, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lowland Semang language

Linked to Spurious languages, per Ethnologue. However, we mention a(nother?) lang by this name at Aslian languages#Endangerment and extinction. Don't know if that means we should redirect or create a stub? — kwami (talk) 19:30, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The most reliable resource about Aslian language names and classification, as of now, is Benjamin (2011), which I have just sent to your e-mail. — Stevey7788 (talk) 20:48, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Page 21 of the paper says: "Northern Aslian ('Bila', 'Wila', or 'Lowland Semang') word-lists ... were collected in the early 1800's ... but these languages have long since disappeared." So it should be redirected to the Aslian languages article and briefly mentioned there. — Stevey7788 (talk) 20:50, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks.

Any indication of when Tosu was spoken? — kwami (talk) 00:09, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It may actually still be alive (maybe with only with a few semi-speakers?) according to Yu (2012), but is "practically extinct" by now. — Stevey7788 (talk) 00:17, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good to know.

Listing ex-TB families

Do you think it would be a good idea to add the ex-TB families suggested by Blench (Kamengic, Mishmic, plus the isolates) to the {{Language families}} nav template, as I did for Siangic? (with question marks, of course.) That would increase visitation of those articles, but I don't know how seriously his idea is taken. Though there have been rumblings for some time, with even E16 mentioning that Puroik might not be TB. — kwami (talk) 19:24, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would definitely vouch for those languages being listed in the templates. Blench not like Greenberg or Ruhlen at all, and uses very sound methodology. Many of his papers are extraordinarily well written. — Stevey7788 (talk) 06:48, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Joined. I'm mostly working on endangered Southeast Asian languages now, but I work on Amerindian languages every once in a while. — Stevey7788 (talk) 00:32, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Miju language () move

It's being taken care of. Right now, we're just waiting on a WP:CSD to open up the Miju language target page. VanIsaac_{WS Vex}^contribs 01:51, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot! — Stevey7788 (talk) 04:52, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

grouping coverage of small languages

re Kho-Bwa languages. Where we do not have any information on a language other than what is in Ethnologue, there is no point in creating content-free substubs. It is much more informative to group these languages and discuss their relationship (or non-relationship) in a single article.

Also, ISO 639-3 and SIL are not gospel. Languages are not "discrete", there is no way to objectively "count languages", and it is very misguided indeed to embark on a project of "creating one stub article per language". The granularity of articles must reflect the granularity of the available content. --dab (𒁳) 12:52, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

pronunciation

FYI, there's a 'pronunciation' parameter in the language info box that can be used for autonyms. — kwami (talk) 10:12, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kohlreng = Koireng?

Getting conflicting info on whether Koireng is the same as Kohlreng, and whether this is a dialect of Kom language (India). Any idea if we should have separate articles? If so, we need to add a link to Koireng at Kukish, and maybe note of ID at Kom. If not, Koireng ISO should be added to Kom.

Thanks for the PDF! Very handy, & something I didn't have. — kwami (talk) 21:52, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Yipho

AFAICT, "Yipho" is a euphemism for Loloish, not for Lolo-Burmese. — kwami (talk) 11:23, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I've moved that to the Loloish article. — Stevey7788 (talk) 19:35, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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