This is an archive of past discussions with User:SeanMD80. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
I have very little experience in AfD matters, and am asking for your input before nominating an article for deletion, because, quite frankly, I do not want to be seen as someone who capriciously nominates articles which do not meet AfD standards.
If you have time, please take a look at this article. It was created by the person who—as the intro asserts—is the very person who coined the term. Most of the edits are by that person. Most, if not all, of the sources link back to this person. I mean, at best it appears to me to constitute OR, at worst, self-promotion. But maybe I'm seeing it wrong. What do you think?
I selected you and many other editors pretty much completely at random; I picked one day's AfD archives, and clicked on the talk pages of the first two or three dozen editors' talk pages I came across. I hope that in using this selection method, I will get editors who are well-versed in AfD policies, yet who also represent a good cross-section of AfD philosophies. I will monitor your talk page for your response. Thanks. Unschool (talk) 07:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks
Thanks for the advise. Actually I usually tag articles asking for citation. But, most of the time, active authors working on those articles do not care much. Interestingly when I tagged them for AfD by twisting (but not breaking) the policy mentioning that those articles don't have enough (sometime not a single) citation, they took it really seriously. To be very honest, my intention was to improve quality of Wikipedia, not to attack some particular article or author. And, I do also agree that this is actually misuse of policy. So I decided not to do this in future. Cheers -- Niaz(Talk • Contribs)18:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I just closed it the way consensus seemed to favor. The participators wanted to keep it in spite of what it was nominated for. When it was proved that it existed, they voted to keep it. However, perhaps I closed it too soon. Would you like me to reopen it again? SeanMD80talk | contribs15:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Please reopen. Consensus doesn't matter if it's wrong, which is why these things aren't votes. 2 million users wanting to keep a copyright violation are ignored when 1 person points out that copyright violations aren't allowed. Hundreds of suburbanites can't overrule that suburbs aren't notable unless they provide sources indicating notability - if they want get rid of wp:v they must first argue for it on its talk page. There was also no notice put at Talk:Montenotte, Ireland about the deletion discussion after it was closed. -- Jeandré, 2008-01-22t12:06z, -- Jeandré, 2008-01-22t12:09z
"Consensus doesn't matter if it's wrong..." So, according to your logic, every article submitted for deletion has a right and wrong outcome, independent of the consensus, and if the consensus agrees, then well great, but if it doesn't, just ignore the consensus... it's wrong anyway.
Consensus is the sole way we determine the outcome of AfDs. Your view that AfD outcomes must conform to existing policies is not correct. After all... what are policies created to reflect? SeanMD80talk | contribs01:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Wet Trout ?
Hi! Just curious about a comment you left on the AfD for White Plains Airport...Request a wet trout for the nom. I'm still learning terms/phrases used here and a search didn't help. Care to translate? :) Happy Monday! Travellingcari (talk) 15:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi! I'm sure there won't be any problems, given how overwhelming the "keep" consensus was on this AfD, but it's probably not a good idea to do an early non-admin close on a topic which has already seen an AfD, three controversial DRV discussions, and an MfD on someone's sandbox. It just invites the possibility of yet another DRV from someone crying "inappropriate early close!" :-) --Stormie (talk) 01:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
As you were a contributor in the last TFD, I am letting you know that {{Maintained}} is again up for deletion. Please review the current version of the template and discuss it at the TFD. Thanks! — BRIAN0918 • 2008-01-30 17:48Z
In the afternoon, we will hold a session dedicated to meta:Wikimedia New York City activities, and have salon-style group discussions on Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia projects (see the last meeting's minutes).
Well also make preparations for our exciting Wikipedia Takes Manhattan event, a free content photography contest for Columbia University students planned for Friday March 28 (about 2 weeks after our meeting).
In the evening, we'll share dinner and chat at a local restaurant, and (weather permitting) hold a late-night astronomy event at Columbia's telescopes.
...For my copyedit on Endemism in the Hawaiian Islands. Listen, I was wondering if you would be interested in working on some aspect of WP:HAWAII, particularly Category:Hawaiian music. I'm not really sure where your interests are, but we are trying to recruit new members and improve the quality of articles. Of course, if your interest is in the natural history of Hawaii, that would be great too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've done some work on Northwestern Hawaiian Islands? That article and Papahānaumokuākea Marine National Monument would probably be at the top of our list in terms of an article improvement drive. Let me know if you can help, and even better, if you can collaborate with related projects/members. Aloha. —Viriditas | Talk02:55, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I saw you were a musician, so I thought I might ask. What I meant by donate, is merely place your award on the project page (linked above) and put it in a barnstar-box. As for giving out the award to people who improve those pages, I would leave that up to you. :) Anyway, there are fourteen articles listed in Category:Northwestern Hawaiian Islands and ten articles in Category:Species endemic to the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands; do you have all 24 articles on your watchlist? It would be great if you could take care of that corner of the project and report on its status. That is to say, how many are stub-class, start-class, etc. You can even leave detailed comments in the project tag on the talk page. The comments will show up on the main assessment page. Thanks again. —Viriditas | Talk04:03, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know how to put it into a barnstar box. I do have all 24 articles in question in my watchlist, but it seems that all 24 are already evaluated and are either stubs, start class, or B-class. If they improve, I will be sure to update the project tags, though. SeanMD80talk | contribs20:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Don't worry about the barnstar-box, I can take care of that (I'll show you how to do it, though). If you've been following the project talk page, then you know we are planning on doing a project-wide reassessment as most of these articles have not been assessed in some time. Since you are actively working on the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands, I've put together an assessment list of those articles, however, I'm not convinced this is a full listing; there are probably a dozen or more related articles that need to be tagged and assessed (for example, Sesbania tomentosa is not tagged). I'll eventually move this list to the assessment page, but I wanted to give you a heads-up. It would be great if you could go through these articles and reassess each one, adding comments in the project tag as you go. You can also add additional flags to the tag (see instructions at Category:Hawaii articles needing attention). If you could tackle one a day, that would be great. For example, if you see that one is lacking references, just add unref=yes to the project tag and make some notes in the comment box about what you think can improve the article. Of course, you don't have to do anything at all if you don't have the time, as we will get to these articles eventually, but we could really use your help with reassessment and article improvement. We're also putting together a newsletter, and considering that the NWHI are the oldest islands in the Hawaiian chain, it seems appropriate that we feature a column about them and how the project can go about improving them in the first issue. Of course, there will be other members of the project to help write about them in the newsletter, but your input is considered most valuable, and if you want to add your thoughts to the newsletter, that would be appreciated. Current list follows (click show): —Viriditas | Talk03:25, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
WikiProject Hawaii Assessment: Northwestern Hawaiian Islands
Cool. If you get a chance, could you respond to Obento's talk page, here? He's leading the effort to get the newsletter up and running, and if he knows you're in as a contributor, we may be able to reduce his stress level. :) I've already told him that I would contribute, but I really want to see the NWHI as the "theme" of the first issue. —Viriditas | Talk04:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for deciding to help. I would me more than happy to make the first issue all about the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands. Perhaps you could share some information with me, because I am interested in learning more about it. :) –The ObentoMusubi (Contributions) 09:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Alright, I am ready for your help. Please go to User:The Obento Musubi/Sandbox and replace the weird text within the blockquote tags with a message about what articles regarding the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands can be expanded and copyedited, etc. Thank you so much for doing this! I will find some way to repay you. :) –The ObentoMusubi (Contributions) 21:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be formatting sections by making the header, then a horizontal line, then the section text. You shuld make the horizontal line above the section header to separate sections completely.
In the beginning you state that we want to focus on only five articles, but then later my message says that we will be trying to improve all of them; which one is it? I would rather focus on all of the articles, but if it has to be five, the I would rather we have a different five completely.
Personally, I would put my message sooner in the newsletter, as it pertains directly to what is said in the intro paragraph. It's not logical to put the intro, then some other stuff, then my message which is about the stuff intro, at the end.
You need to make it clearer how the DYK project and the Task Forces idea directly pertains to the improvement drive for the NWHI. Say something like, "To further aid the imporvement drive, we are establishing a project where a memeber submits an interesting fact to DYK" ect. SeanMD80talk | contribs13:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Heh. How about mentioning that you will be awarding the coveted NWHI Plaque to every editor who significantly improves a Stub-Class article and submits a DYK? Or something like that. —Viriditas | Talk23:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, you could increase the incentive for X number of articles expanded or DYK's received. Plaque for the first article, NWHI barnstar for three, etc... —Viriditas | Talk23:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Can you insert more of your comments about the articles in general into the paragraph? Perhaps two sentences summarizing what you see as the biggest obstacles or recommendations based on your review of the articles so far? I guess what I'm looking for is a general status report. You've already reviewed most of the articles, so if you could summarize your findings in the newletter that would be fantastic. It's ok to refer to yourself in the third person. —Viriditas | Talk23:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Heh, it's so funny how we are all on the same page. I was just about to create this article, when here you are, creating it. It's sort of scary, don't you think? :) Anyway, I think this clinches the debate as to whether we need a task force. Would you have any interest in heading a NWHI task force? BTW, don't forget to add {{WPHawaii|class=List|importance=}} to the talk page. —Viriditas | Talk22:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
That is creepy... I created it when I realized that a full list of species just on Laysan would be way too long to put on an article. I would love to head the task force, and I'll do the WPHawaii box.
Great. I'll modify the template later today and create the new assessment scheme, including the new categories. You will have your own project subpage to recruit members and discuss articles. I'll also change the newsletter to reflect the new task force with you in charge. One thing that might be helpful to create is a resource page, so that potential contributors can draw from the list of references in use on the pages to make new additions. I can help create this if you want. —Viriditas | Talk23:07, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, It would be very easy for me to write a "Resource" page, just write down the link to the (uncreated) article here and I'll proceed from there. Also, I wrote a message on User:Sabine's Sunbird's talk page asking if he wanted to participate in some way in the coming month. I don't know if he is a member of the WP:HAWAII, but he's actually been to the NWHI. SeanMD80talk | contribs23:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Perfect. You can always just create it in your user space like this /Resources and then move it (to preserve the history) to the correct URL once I figure it out. —Viriditas | Talk23:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Re: Sabine, can you also leave a message on the talk page for WikiProject Birds, asking them if they would be interested in formalizing a collaborative relationship on the NWHI articles for April? Thanks. —Viriditas | Talk23:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Resources
Very nice. I'll let you know what title to move it to in about four hours, as I'm not entirely in a position to make the changes. Anyway, I want your name in the edit history. —Viriditas | Talk03:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, I don't really see a problem. The garbage patch seems to be a small part of the N. Pacific Gyre, and a separate phenomenon. Of course, if you want to merge them together again, that is also logical. Just it will have one really huge section about the garbage patch and one measly section about the gyre. SeanMD80talk | contribs23:29, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Hawaiʻi WikiProject Newsletter - Issue I - April 2008
Aloha. The April 2008 issue of the Hawaiʻi WikiProject newsletter has been published. To change your delivery options or unsubscribe, visit this link. Mahalo nui loa. WikiProject Hawaiʻi 15:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Article improvement drive
I'm going to start on the stubs tomorrow. Hopefully, I can get Jonny and Obento to help. Let me know when you're back up to speed. —Viriditas | Talk10:01, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Update. Please check over and make any corrections to Amaranthus brownii that you can. I still need to upload an image, so if you can help out with that, wonderful. I'm probably going to submit a DYK in the next day or so, but it still needs more expansion. —Viriditas | Talk10:07, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Whoa, I don't know how you found those sources, but you did an excellent job with Amaranthus brownii. I have a book that may further help with content, but I would have to add that later tonight. As for a free picture, I'm looking... SeanMD80talk | contribs20:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, but it still needs more info about the plant. I saw that you just reassessed the article, but remember to hold off on that until after the DYK is submitted. DYK only takes submissions for new articles and stubs within a five-day expansion window, or so I am told. If you are familiar with the process, you are of course welcome to submit the DYK yourself, but I suggest we expand the article some more and find an image. My guess though, is that there are no free images due to its rare status. I have the photo in the Nihoa/Necker book cited in the refs-is it acceptable for me to scan it in and upload it? —Viriditas | Talk22:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
If we can't find a free image, than I think we can use a copyrighted one as fair use. And I am still trying to find content to add. SeanMD80talk | contribs12:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
The reason "a small island in the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands" appears both in the distribution and the WP:LEAD section, is because the lead section is never supposed to present unique information that isn't already found in the article. So basically, all information in the lead needs to be found sourced in the body of the article. Yes, you and I know that the NWHI are part of the Hawaiian Islands National Wildlife Refuge, but I think spelling it out is preferable to it appearing only once in the lead section, which is problematic when we want to completely remove the references from the lead as the article improves. Of course, you are welcome to think differently. :) —Viriditas | Talk23:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure if the name should be changed, since the current name describes exactly what it is. I did change the description on the Outreach page. SeanMD80talk | contribs00:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I would be happy to email them a request for use of their photo on Wikipedia, but my understanding is that Wikipedia does not allow images to have special permissions. If it's not completely free, or isn't fair use, then I don't think Wikipedia would accept it. Is that true? SeanMD80talk | contribs12:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for the confusion. I think we can agree that there no basis for a "replaceable fair use image" due to the extremely rare status of this plant. It is close to impossible for anybody to visit Nihoa in the winter to get a photo, which is why the last photo appears to have been captured in the early 1980s. In other words, there is no known replacement, as all known images are either copyrighted or specified as noncommerical use only. So we are covered for fair use. We would still need to ask for special permission - from the Smithsonian, not Wikipedia - to appropriately license at least one image of A. brownii using the best image license for the job. I could be wrong, but two tags would seem to work:{{Non-free fair use in}} and {{Withpermission}}. We also need to fill out a WP:FUG. So we need the permission of the Smithsonian, with their understanding that their rights are protected. —Viriditas | Talk12:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I sent an email to them with this text:
"Dear Smithsonian Institution,
I would like to use Derral R. Herbst's second photo of Amaranthus brownii as an illustration for the Wikipedia article of the same name. No free image of this plant exist on the internet, and visits to Nihoa in the winter are quite rare (the photo was taken 18 years ago). Due to the dearth of photos of this subject on the internet, the article cannot be illustrated without using a copyrighted image.
Can you grant me permission to use this one photo for this article? You need not void the copyright for the photo, as Wikipedia will recognize the special permission, and the image will still be protected. Without your help, this article can never be complete.
I got permssion to use the low-res photo, but then I read this on Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission: "To use copyrighted material on Wikipedia, it is not enough that we have permission to use it on Wikipedia alone. That's because Wikipedia itself states all its material may be used by anyone, for any purpose. So we have to be sure all material is in fact licenced for that purpose, whoever provided it."
I'm not sure I entirely understand that, as it comes from a how-to, not a policy or guideline. I really like your drawings, but I don't think a drawing is a substitute for a photograph or equivalent to a replaceable free image. For that reason, I think it is acceptable to use the Smithsonian image of A. brownii, but perhaps we should take this to Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. Thanks for your follow up on this. Viriditas (talk) 11:40, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Nine species?
Evenhuis & Eldredge 2004 write that there are nine recorded species of Amaranthus in Hawaii, but I can find only eight. I seem to recall reading about an extinct species, but I could be mistaken. (I'll be able to confirm in about 12 hours) Either way, do you know if this is a typo by E&E? Feel free to move this discussion to Talk:Amaranthus brownii after you have read it. Thanks. —Viriditas | Talk14:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Laysan
Hi, thanks for the positive response to the GA review. If you want any help with formatting the references or with the bird section, or just a read through before you resubmit, let me know. Jimfbleak (talk) 05:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
A doubt regarding User pages
Hi Sean:
I have this doubt about user pages. Why is it that even Wikipedia user pages are also made available for editing by all? Since you are a senior wikipedian here, I thought asking you would give an answer to this. :-) -- Sreejith Kumar (talk) 10:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure why user pages are made editable by all users, but I know that User:Jimbo Wales invites other editors to make changes to his user page if they want, as long as it is in good taste. Wikipedia:User page is not very clear on the matter either. If you are having problems with vandalism, you can always request protection for your user page. SeanMD80talk | contribs12:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I will be without computer access from tonight until Sunday afternoon EDT, but I will try to cram in as much help as possible. I know a bit more about the palm than the amaranth. SeanMD80talk | contribs16:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
BTW, I have no objection to you adding one of your great drawings to A. brownii. Should I start a thread about the photo on the noticeboard? Viriditas (talk) 22:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Frankly, unless you or I can whip up amazing sources that I have never known about, like you did for A. brownii, I don't know how we could expand it to five times its length. SeanMD80talk | contribs00:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, I can already see some room for expansion. How do you feel about comparing it to the Fiji Fan palm (Pritchardia pacifica). You can also expand the habitat and talk about how the "closed canopies" (provides shading) and layers of fallen palm fronds (holds moisture in and prevents other plants from competing with the palms) help P. remota survive on Nihoa. We can talk about how it has been successfully cultivated in botanical gardens. There's also the July 1885 fire that we should mention, and how it is theorized that the trunks of the palm were used for shelter (and the fronds for thatching) by ancient Hawaiians; the seeds may have been used for food. Today, P. remota is a roosting and nesting place for seabirds. A recovery plan for establishing new populations of the plant is being considered for Necker, Laysan, Midway, and Kauai. (Evenhuis & Eldredge 2004, pp. 62-63) I believe there is a lot to talk about. Viriditas (talk) 00:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Hey, Sean. I hope you had a good time camping. Listen, could you do me a favor and upload the A. brownii image along with a copy of persmission on the talk page? I think I have a good, non-free media fair use rationale that will work. Viriditas (talk) 03:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Image copyright problem with Image:Amaranthusbrownii low res.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Amaranthusbrownii low res.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the copyright status of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the copyright status of the image on the image's description page, using an appropriate copyright tag, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided copyright information for them as well.
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Hawaiʻi WikiProject Newsletter - Issue II - May 2008
Aloha. The May 2008 issue of the Hawaiʻi WikiProject newsletter has been published. To change your delivery options or unsubscribe, visit this link. Mahalo nui loa. WikiProject Hawaiʻi 17:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions with User:SeanMD80. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
