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User talk:Lhakthong/Archive 1
February 2009
 {{unblock|Your reason here}} below. — Aitias // discussion 01:33, 28 February 2009 (UTC) Lhakthong (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log)) Request reason: I have noticed that the two editors I have been disputing with are now suspected of sock puppetry (one the sock puppet and the other the puppeteer). I admit that when I first started on this page, I was ignorant of the rules and might (I can't remember at this point) have violated the 3 RR. However, once I became aware of the rules (including 3RR), I made a good faith effort to abide by them. My reversions regarding edits of the two suspected sock puppet accounts (if it was indeed two people) were done in an attempt to prevent material from being posted that was in violation of the three core content policies: verification, neutrality, and original research, reasons I think are exempt according to Wikipedia:3RR. The original offending claim in this dispute was later revealed to be a copyright violation. I actually thought I was gate keeping the integrity of the page. I even reverted my own comments a couple of times (at least) because I later thought they violated core content policy. I think all of this is evident in the discussion page, regardless of any rudeness that might also have been communicated. I'm sorry to have violated the 3RR. I hope you'll see that once I knew the rules, any violation I made wasn't intentional. I can wait the 24 hours on the block. That doesn't bother me. I'm more worried about a strike on my account because I was an ignorant newbie. Thank you in advance for your time. Decline reason: solid block. Stand by.. about to lengthen block for evasion Toddst1 (talk) 18:37, 28 February 2009 (UTC) If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked. Lhakthong (talk) 04:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
Lhakthong:OK, I think it is more clear to me what blatant vandalism is. And it is obvious to me why doing multiple reversions on changes that are grammatical or minor or substantive changes that do not involve content policy violations would be considered unwarranted reversions, but I want to make sure I'm clear on other cases that are more egregious. So, if there are blatant substantive violations of content policy like copyright violation or claims that are blatantly not neutral or blatantly not verifiable, they should not be deleted, but first some good faith attempt should be made on the talk page, then conflict resolution should be sought? I just want to have it straight so I don't make a mistake again because I wasn't clear on the rules. Thanks again. Lhakthong (talk) 16:09, 28 February 2009 (UTC) For what it's worth, when I found out about dispute resolution while I was researching Wikipedia policy yesterday, I did put in a request for it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Wikipedian2). I know that this person has not yet had enough time to respond, but in general how long should I wait before moving to the next step? Should I try two or three people on that page first, waiting, for example, a week in between requests for a response? What is your recommendation? Thanks again for your time. Lhakthong (talk) 16:30, 28 February 2009 (UTC) If you need me to promise not to violate the 3RR rule, I promise. But to help me understand policy, could you please answer the questions above? If you can't do it, can you tell me who I should ask? Sorry this is becoming so unwieldy. Lhakthong (talk) 23:03, 28 February 2009 (UTC) Wikipedia Vandalism Policy page says in the second paragraph, "For example, adding a controversial personal opinion to an article once is not vandalism; reinserting it despite multiple warnings is." This was my point about the reinsertion of Magkantog's material. It is a controversial, unverifiable (and personal) opinion that was misleading in the way it was quoted. I also think give my argument in the below SPI, that Magkantog was working in concert with sockpuppets (virtual or human) to insert those comments. Although I thought I was wrong before, after reading that page I again think I was right. I'm not sure why I was so off base in accusing him of such, regardless of whether or not I've broken any rules. Do the warnings have to come from admins? Can anyone help me out here? Lhakthong (talk) 02:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC) I finally read more fully the page on edit warring. Up until this point I thought edit warring was defined specifically by the 3RR, because that was the only association I had of it. I understand now that 3RR is really just a violation that takes place within an edit war. I understand better now what it is, how I was engaged in it, and I promise to avoid engaging in it in the future. Lhakthong (talk) 04:03, 3 March 2009 (UTC) Block Request by Magkantog for Further Editing of Phi Kappa Phi/Indefinite Suspenesion of Lhakthong AccountMagkantog: Toddst1, The same user edited the same (well documented, salient and relevant) sentence for the third time. We all agreed yesterday to keep the second and third sentences as a consensus, but it has been edited twice again today. Specifically, we agreed to keep them because Lhakthong wanted to include the superlative "respect" for Phi Kappa Phi which I agreed to provided the dispute is noted and provided it is qualified by the sentence and citation about Phi Beta Kappa. Phi Kappa Phi's respect derives in large part from Phi Beta Kappa's precedence (PKP copied the symbols, traditions, organization, membership, eto. of Phi Beta Kappa) and preeminence (PKP draws the bulk of its membership from the arts and sciences students which is the field of Phi Beta Kappa). Hence, the cited New York Times, Washington Post, Richard Current's history book, etc. indicate that Phi Kappa Phi is an "imitation" (their terminology) of Phi Beta Kappa. Even the name, Phi Kappa Phi (as you will see from the organization's national website) had to be changed three times between 1897 and 1901 to come as close as possible to PHI Beta KAPPA and gain respect or acceptance in colleges and universities without a Phi Beta Kappa chapter. In some colleges, I understand Phi Kappa Phi uses deception to market themselves as Phi Beta Kappa because these colleges do not have Phi Beta Kappa chapters which is considered the hallmark of excellence in honor societies as documented in that third sentence. Hence, because PKP rides on the precedence and preeminence of the name of Phi Beta Kappa, it has gained (questionable) respect, particularly in colleges without a Phi Beta Kappa chapter. Those are the colleges that Lhakthong cited, among others. If you review/look at the user's IP address, it is the same one that (suspended user) Lhakthong had used when he was deleting the sentence and re-editing the article on February 24 and 25. Can you just put a block on the article after restoring that sentence for which consensus was already arrived yesterday per above Discussion Page? Additionally, I think the suspension of Lhakthong and his sockpuppet accounts should be made permanent. Thanks. Magkantog (talk) 16:30, 28 February 2009 (UTC) {{unblock|Your reason here}} below. Toddst1 (talk) 18:38, 28 February 2009 (UTC)Block extended
Lhakthong:I am very serious, and I am very glad you all have software to help you figure out these kinds of things. Now I know what identity theft feels like. I took a quick peak at the SPI page. It looks like it might take a while to read up and for write an SPI, and it is late for me now, so I'll get on it tomorrow. Thanks again for your help. At risk of seeming sycophantic, now that I understand what a meatpuppet is, and I've seen all the other new editors pop up defending my perspective, I totally understand why you are blocking me. Were I you, I'd being doing the same thing. I just want to get this cleared up. Lhakthong (talk) 04:41, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
SPIReport date March 1 2009, 03:25 (UTC){{SPIcat}}
Magkantog has admitted on my talk page that George sherman 34 is a colleague of his who is working in concert to achieve a specific end, stated below, even though prior to that George sherman 34 claimed on the discussion page to be from another university and presented himself as a third party trying to achieve consensus. After Magkantog was given a soft block for violating the 3RR, sock/"meat" puppet George sherman 34 reinserted the offending claim in order to be "fair to both parties". Magkantog's first contribution to the Phi Kappa Phi page was to revert a delete (not made by me) so that a non-neutral and unverifiable phrase placed by 173.15.144.102 meant to diminish the reputation of Phi Kappa Phi could be reinserted. The original insert by 173.15.144.102 also had a statement regarding Golden Key Honor Society, another society Magkantog brings up repeatedly in the discussion page. Over the past 12 months, similar reverts trying to insert very similar, very specific statements meant to denigrate or dismiss the reputation of Phi Kappa Phi in relation to Phi Beta Kappa were made by:
Plus the ensuing reversion edits by Magkantog, George sherman 34, and 70.106.117.53 made in concert since then. 70.106.117.53 appears on 22 Feb 2009 in the page edit history (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Phi_Kappa_Phi&diff=prev&oldid=272527934), and edits in the discussion page and on my talk page on 1 March 2009 will show edits made from this IP are in fact Magkantog. All of the above have short edit histories and all with the minor exception of Shelly wilson 3 seem related to the exclusive purpose of inserting the aforementioned offending claim. All of the above IP addresses are located in the NY/NJ area, where Magkantog claims to be from, with the exception of 74.178.93.137 (Alabama) Given the above, I also feel that 74.178.93.137 and 166.214.16.81, if not real people, are also sockpuppets or "meatpuppets" of Magkantog being used to undermine the validity of my account in their use to imitate sockpuppets of mine. You can check them against me, too, if you like. Lhakthong (talk) 04:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
The above unsubmitted SPIToddst1:I think you need to continue to work on that. You need to make it more concise (you'll get WP:TLDR otherwise) and please use the templates at the top. Take a look at some of the other SPIs for examples. Also, don't confuse a SPI about you with a SPI about Magkantog. Toddst1 (talk) 20:39, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
UnblockingToddst1:I am unblocking you so that you may directly edit Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Magkantog. Please be extremely careful as you will be re-blocked without warning if disruptive editing recurs. Good luck. Toddst1 (talk) 20:11, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Other Communications to Toddst1Lhakthong:FYI: Perhaps Magkantog just misspoke, but he said "If you look at the Discussion Page he is citing, I said there very clearly that I was from Cornell University ... which is in Ithaca, New York close to New Jersey as our (me and colleague George sherman) IP addresses would show." However, on the discussion page, George sherman 3 said "I am familiar with both honor societies since we have them both on campus (University of Wisconsin)." The University of Wisconsin is not in New York or New Jersey. It is in Wisconsin. Lhakthong (talk) 23:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Lhakthong:I'm a bit confused about why Magkantog doesn't have a hard block. George sherman 34 was pretending to be a neutral party from the University of Wisconsin in the PKP discussion page, but now Magkanthog says he's actually a colleague of his at Cornell University (if George sherman 34 is even a second person) who is acting in concert in order to achieve a particular agenda on the PKP page. And, although Magkantog knew enough about it in concept and name -- with such a short edit history mind you -- to start accusing me of sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry, he didn't seem to think that George sherman 34 would be the same? The Alabama and NY IPs still are a riddle (see above for the resolution of the Cornell College edit), and Magkantog is openly admitting George sherman 34 to be a sock/(meat)puppet to avoid consensus building and to evade his 3RR block (george claiming to reinsert the offending comment to be "fair to both parties" that were blocked)? After I tell you about the Shelly wilson 3 account on my talk page in requesting an SPI on Magkantog, her edit history on the PKP page magically disappears (maybe this is you sorting things out)? Why am I the only one with a hard block? I've admitted wrong doing readily when I understand what it is I did wrong; he knowingly violates the rules and gets away with it. I don't mean this to be disrespectful, but I really don't understand what's going on. Lhakthong (talk) 17:26, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Lhakthong:If it makes a difference to the PKP page, I'm pretty sure the comments on the discussion page from 71.192.30.167 and from 12.201.59.34 (no edits) in August were from me and from publicly accessible IP's, and I already stated that comments and edits from 173.21.20.207 were from me. All of this obviously was before I established an account to try out being a Wikipedia editor. When I get editing privileges back, should I re-sign those statements as "Lhakthong" or would that be considered suspicious? Lhakthong (talk) 18:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC) LHAKTHONG and MAGKANTOG still ascertaining the primary concern:Magkantog:After all this time, you still do not or do not seem to want to get the entire point. There are several colleagues of ours here in Ithaca (sherman and I are only two among many) and other nearby colleges in NY, NJ, Vermont, etc. who are trying to help point out the imitation (directly or indirectly, consciously or not) of Phi Beta Kappa for several reasons that we have been repeating over and over again in the Discussion pages of Phi Kappa Phi: 1) Phi Kappa Phi in several colleges rides on the prestige, respect, precedence, etc. of Phi Beta Kappa; readers need to know the possible reasons for that, given sufficient documentation to that effect from books, newspapers like New York Times, etc., as footnoted in the Phi Kapa Phi article; 2) Phi Beta Kappa has waged legal battles (both completed and ongoing) against imitators, and other imitating organizations might be close to getting into legal trouble as well; and 3) as noted in the Discussion pages, we do not wish to belittle Phi Kappa Phi (or in your words, make it look "lesser") -- and we have recognized its contributions to scholarship in the discussion pages -- BUT we need to qualify your sentence on "respect" if you are insisting/agitating to include it. Afer all, both "prestige" and "respect" are favorable descriptors. So I do not know what is so baffling with several IPs/user accounts pointing out the imitation or possible imitation of Phi Beta Kappa. Furthermore, some of these IPs are "open for public use" so they may not necessarily deal with Phi Kappa Phi or Phi Beta Kappa. In any case, with respect to Phi Kappa Phi and Phi Beta Kappa, our purpose is to gain public awareness and/or redress of imitation or possible imitation of Phi Beta Kappa (see the example of Compaq in the PKP discussion page, or thru this link, http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-700638.html). We do not engage in sockpuppetry, meatpuppetry or whatever you are imagining by asking for an SPI. We are certain you will be convinced that none of us are sockpuppets, etc., or are engaged in sockpuppetry, etc. after you get the SPI. I will not write again in your talk page, unless you, for some reason, refer to me again Magkantog (talk) 01:49, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Magkantog:This is the last time I will even bother to repeat myself and sherman (who I have noted twice above and in the Discussion page as a visiting colleague from Wisconsin). I NEVER EVER SAID THAT YOU SHOULD NOT INDICATE "RESPECT" FOR PHI KAPPA PHI. WHAT I SAID IS THAT IT NEEDS TO BE QUALIFIED BY MENTIONING PHI BETA KAPPA. Now, U of Illinois at Urbana does not belong to the top 10 or 20 national universities in the US New and World Report (I kept referring to the top 10 or 20 in the PKP Discussion page). Illinois is one of the top in CERTAIN academic programs like those you cited above. Natinally, the top 10 are Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Northwestern, Berkeley, MIT, Caltech, Chicago, which all do not have PKP chapters. But that is beside the point. Using your own U of Illinois illustration above, it only reinforces what we have said over and over again: The Phi Kappa Phi article should mention Phi Beta Kappa as it is now, in the same manner that your quote from Illinois includes/mentions Phi Beta Kappa and other honor societies. Got it?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Magkantog (talk • contribs) 21:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
On the point of why saying "PBK is the most prestigious" is still misleadingLhakthong:The fact that single journalists in the NYT or Washington Post mentions PBK as "the most prestigious" is not the same as either organization carrying out a survey or study that finds that most faculty or most universities or most of the American public find PBK to be such. The article is not about PBK being the most prestigious, it is mentioned in passing to give context. It was not reporting on a study finding that PBK is the most prestigious. It is actually misleading to attribute the claim of one person at an organization to the organization as a whole. Were the organization qua organization to have made the claim, one would have to write "The NYT has stated that PBK…"[NYT citation] If the NYT were reporting a survey that came out, one would have to write "X study reported that the majority of university faculty found PBK to be the most prestigious"[NYT citation]. That's verifiable and not misleading. A singular journalist at the NYT or Washington Post is not the organization as a whole, and a singular journalist's incidental descriptor is not representative of an authoritative source that it is "the most prestigious" without qualification. Find me a university website (not one of PBK's own chapter webpages) that says that, and then cite it appropriately so that it is a verifiable claim. Or find a survey that confirms such a point. Maybe there's one in The Chronicle of Higher Education. If Dom Deluise said veal is best tasting meat, making an unqualified statement "Veal is the best tasting meat", tout court, and then citing Dom Deluise is misleading, even he's a professional chef. Dom is one particular person, not popular opinion, giving subjective opinion. One would have to say "Dom Deluise has found veal to the the best tasting meat". Similarly, you would have to say "Emily M. Berstein of the NYT has said that PBK is the most prestigious" or "Several journalists have said…". When written that way, appropriate to the citations given, one can see how weak that claim really is and why it would seem suspicious in the lead of a PKP article. Remember, Wikipedia policy is about verifiability, not truth, and placing "herin quoted" and citing sources that do not confirm or make verifiable the claim does not save you from making a misleading and unverifiable claim. The same can be said said for you stating that PKP "imitated" PBK, a claim you didn't quote as a singular person's opinion or explicitly state as such, but stated it as verifiable, universal fact; and given the inappropriate use of quotations and phrasing, you effectively claimed someone else's statement as your own (plagiarism, intentional or not). Furthermore, citing PBK chapter webpages, regardless of whether they sit on university servers, as citations for this claim is like me claiming I'm the greatest in the world and citing my own diary, even if its published on Oxford University Press. That is completely inappropriate and misleading. I am sincerely utterly perplexed how anyone with a PhD would not understand this. Reading Magkantog's discussion points and the NYT article, I think his primary concern is that potential PBK members are being lost to other organizations (PKP is an imitator of PBK that uses "deception" to recruit its members, and making claims that judge PKP as "lesser" because it has chapters at "third-rate" universities or not at universities he alone considers to be the best or cited from sources he alone considers good enough), which is not likely because PKP is an imitator but because being selected as in the top 10% (or 7.5%, depending) of all disciplines on an entire campus and not just from LAS is a huge honor; and it is becoming more and more clear that he and his sock/meatpuppets are trying to attenuate the loss of potential Phi Beta Kappa membership to Phi Kappa Phi by using Wikipedia as a mobilization point to ensure the reputation of PKP on Wikipedia is diminished as much as possible, i.e., one can't make claims about PKP being "one of the most prestigious", no matter how verifiable, without mentioning PBK as "the most prestigious"; or, as the ultimatum given by Magkantog or one of the other sockpuppets, there should be no claim that it is one of the most prestigious at all (regardless of verifiability). It is utterly, utterly perplexing, or completely crystal clear what is going on here. Lhakthong (talk) 15:34, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
March 2009
Your recent editsHi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button sock tagI have removed it.
Phil of ed pageSure thing. It still needs quite a bit of help...it would be great to find a few more editors to bring some substantial content. hgilbert (talk) 02:21, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
I regret, however, that your attempt has not made the case much clearer at all. In making your clarification, you simply copied and pasted a new version from your own user space, and REPLACED the whole case with the new version. Please do NOT edit cases in this manner. If you need to add information or clarification, you must add the clarification to the existing text. You must never remove text from the page that is already there. In particular, you must not remove Clerk actions (such as declining Checkuser). If you need to add comments, add them directly to the page. Don't copy and paste them from elsewhere. The case as it stands still consists of a large number of statements about what went on, without diffs to back them up. Without those diffs, somebody investigating the case will have to spend many hours seeking the information, and that just isn't on! Mayalld (talk) 10:48, 9 March 2009 (UTC) Talkback You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template. Mayalld (talk) 16:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC) I have today submitted the questioned editing and wording of Phi Kappa Phi for arbitration for your information. You can check highlighted page and respond if you wish.Angtitimo (talk) 22:27, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Human developmentGreetings! Phi Kappa PhiI am happy to take your Phi Kappa Phi Mediation Cabal case. I look forward to seeing your participation. Regards, Jd027talk 00:00, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Closure of Phi Kappa Phi MEDCAB caseIt seems that a mutual agreement (leaving the article as is) has been reached regarding your Phi Kappa Phi dispute, and I'm happy to have made a closing statement here, and closed the case. If you ever need to talk to me, feel free to leave a message at my talk page at any time. Regards, and happy editing, Jd027talk 20:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC) Questionhi, just wondering if you have a recent copy of Baird's Manual of College Fraternities??? El Johnson (talk) 17:01, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Phi Beta Kappa SocietyHello, Lhakthong. I've seen the Mediation Cabal case requested for Phi Beta Kappa Society here, and I'm glad to take the case. It appears that you have engaged in discussion about the issue, and I have listed you as a party. I have reviewed the relevant discussions and am looking forward to working towards an ultimate resolution. Regards, Jd027 (talk) 15:27, 31 March 2009 (UTC) Shambhala wikiHi Lhakthong, I'm working on an unofficial reference wiki for Shambhala. I'd love your help with that if that's interesting to you as a path of study and practice. I just renamed the site yesterday from tanjur to labelingthoughts.org and would love both your feedback and your thoughts on the project. - Owlmonkey (talk) 18:18, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
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