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Hi Karaeng Matoaya! Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia. Be our guest at the Teahouse! The Teahouse is a friendly space where new editors can ask questions about contributing to Wikipedia and get help from experienced editors like Naypta (talk).
@HaEr48: I'm not sure if you were already automatically notified or not (being new to this whole Wikipedia thing), but I just amended the submission in light of your comments. Cheers!--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 12:10, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I added the review page to my watchlist (as should most reviewers, I think) and I monitor my watchlist regularly, so yes, without your ping I would have noticed your reply anyway. But if you want to be sure, you can also use the {{Ping}} or the {{Userlink}} template on the review page, both of which should send notification to the user. Anyway, well done on that article. Hope you enjoy writing on Wikipedia and hope to see more of your work :) HaEr48 (talk) 01:59, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, Karaeng Matoaya. Voting in the 2017 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 10 December. All users who registered an account before Saturday, 28 October 2017, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Wednesday, 1 November 2017 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
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The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
I was looking for some small help. I created an article en:Kithaab -a play about women rights issues- which has been copy edited and is ready for translation in various languages. Looking for your possible help in translating the article en:Kithaab (zh:基塔卜) to your language (ko-Korean language) Wikipedia. If you are unable to spare time yourself then may be you like to refer the same to some other translator.
That looks like a really good article! I'll see what I can do if I have the time, but I don't have real experience with writing something about movies so I'm not super comfortable overall. You should consider asking on Wikipedia:WikiProject Korea too.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 10:14, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
GA review
Hi. I do appreciate you giving your thought to the GA review, but given the article's history, I don't really think you should make this one your first review. I strongly believe that this reviewer should have a more diverse editing history, especially experience with other good article reviews. I'm not in a hurry to get the review done, so I don't mind waiting longer for someone else. Therefore, I ask that you withdraw from doing this review.TH1980 (talk) 14:58, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I will fix those problems you found as soon as I can. By the way, Ch'on's article is available online. You can find it at http://www.ekoreajournal.net, an excellent source for scholarship on Korean history. By contrast, I cannot yet find Lee Hyoun-jun's articles online. I do own copies of them and believe them to be reliable sources, but they're written in English in an English-language journal, so I doubt they have Hangul names. TH1980 (talk) 19:56, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Will automatically overwrite anything you write on the WP:GAN page—that's why the instructions ask you not to edit the page. I therefore moved your note to the template on article talk[1] It will display the same on WP:GAN because Legobot recognizes this format. buidhe07:03, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The article Korean creation narratives you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Korean creation narratives for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already appeared on the main page as a "Did you know" item, or as a bold link under "In the News" or in the "On This Day" prose section, you can nominate it within the next seven days to appear in DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On This Day" column do not affect DYK eligibility. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Chipmunkdavis -- Chipmunkdavis (talk) 04:01, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Further steps for the article
Please consider nominating your creation narratives article for WP:DYK within the time limit. Not only is it high quality, WP:DYK is currently suffering from severe systematic bias, with half of all hooks being from the United States alone. I also tentatively suggest considering WP:FAC, for similar reasons, although I am not as familiar with that process and it can take more time. I do note that Early history of Gowa and Talloq was taken to FA, so there is precedent. Best, CMD (talk) 03:27, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Chipmunkdavis: Thank you for the kind words and the very thorough GA review! Your review actually gave me a lot of ideas on how to improve the Korean mythology article (now rewritten) too, so it now covers e.g. the historiography of the myths better.
I'll nominate the article for WP:DYK. As of yesterday I believe all but one or two of the entries were American which I do agree was a bit egregious. As for FAC, I think I'd prefer to wait until the core article Korean mythology has become a GA first.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 02:01, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding is that DYK admins deliberately try and restrict American hooks to half, so if it's all but one or two then the issue is even worse than I indicated. Please keep in mind the 7 day deadline for DYK. Best, CMD (talk) 03:08, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, Karaeng Matoaya. Your question has been answered at the Teahouse Q&A board. Feel free to reply there! Please note that all old questions are archived after 2-3 days of inactivity. Message added by ~ Amkgp💬15:57, 4 July 2020 (UTC). (You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{teahouse talkback}} template.[reply]
Your thread has been archived
Hi Karaeng Matoaya! The thread you created at the Wikipedia:Teahouse, Is there a WikiProject with illustrators willing to make sketches for articles?, has been archived because there was no discussion for a few days (usually at least two days, and sometimes four or more). You can still find the archived discussion here. If you have any additional questions that weren't answered then, please feel free to create a new thread.
Hi Karaeng Mataoaya. Wikipedia has an article on Korean folklore which was recently expanded as part of a student project. I'm not sure from the content how distinct a topic it is compared to the Korean mythology article, but they could probably be written as distinct topics. I noticed it at DYK where questions have been raised regarding some sources. If you have time, I thought you might have enough background knowledge to be able to quickly check if there is anything egregiously wrong in the text. Best, CMD (talk) 06:50, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Chipmunkdavis: It's nice to hear from you again. The article has a few issues. Taking the example of the "Legend of Arang," we have this paragraph:
In the Legend of Arang, Arang is portrayed as very vulnerable. She is helpless, weak and innocent and needs to be rescued by a hero to avoid falling into the trap of her maid, who is tempting her. However, Arang's maid is seen as very beautiful but also a very evil temptress. From these two characters, it can be seen that women in the Chosen Era are seen secondary to men as they are always in need of rescue or too weak to fight for themselves. The Korean women were considered not marriageable if they were found of these traits.[25]
The source for the paragraph is http://mahan.wonkwang.ac.kr/nonmun/2005non/9.htm, which does not mention Arang in any way. Presumably this is used to support "women in the Chosen Era are seen secondary to men as they are always in need of rescue or too weak to fight for themselves. The Korean women were considered not marriageable if they were found of these traits," which are indeed claims backed by the source. But the actual substantive discussion of the legend of Arang is left unsupported.
[Arang,] the beautiful daughter of the magistrate of Miryang, was tricked by her wet nurse into going out for moon-viewing, only to be raped and murdered by a man who had secretly lusted for her. Afterwards, every magistrate assigned to Miryang died on the first day of his post. One year, a newly appointed magistrate of unusual courage encountered the spirit of Arang on his first day, and discovered that every magistrate before him had died of shock upon seeing her sorrowful ghost. Arang told him of her story. The next morning, the magistrate ordered everyone in the prefectural offices to be gathered in his office courtyard. The ghost of Arang turned into a butterfly and sat on the man who had murdered her. The han of Arang was thereby solved.
The EKFC article gives a few other variants of the legend, most of them relating to the identity of the person that solves the magistrate-dying mystery. All versions are difficult to reconcile with the Wikipedia article's summary. Further, the article states that the legend shows that women are "helpless, weak and innocent... seen secondary to men as they are always in need of rescue or too weak to fight for themselves." But the EKFC says in its "Significance" section (my translation):
The resolution of Arang's grief via the scholar-official is sometimes interpreted as the story of a victim of male power returning to the fold of the patriarchal order as represented by the male official, but also as Arang being the active agent of finding justice by providing the impetus and driving the process of her recognition in the public sphere. In both interpretations, the presence and confession of the ghost serve the role of accusing and rebuking patriarchal order and male violence, and the fear that the ghost brings about has the effect of weakening the apparently solid dominance of men.
Thanks. That's a troubling misinterpretation. Do you think the article is easily salvageable, or would it require significant work? I'm taking a look myself, but I don't have much background knowledge and can't check the Korean sources well. CMD (talk) 15:27, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think it'd depend on your standards for "salvageable."
Most of the quantifiable information seems basically accurate, if in need of copyediting. The Arang misinformation turns out not to be by the student at all but was actually added in March of last year, which the student rewriter did not remove.
On the other hand, there are serious issues of broader contextualization. Some of these are apparently caused by an unfamiliarity with English-language scholarship or uninformed translations of Korean. For example, we have:
Seolhwa can be difficult to classify, but they are generally grouped into three categories: the story of God, the story handed down, and the story handed down from the private sector. Seolhwa generally consists of prose that does not involve rhyme, but sometimes have rhymes like folk songs. For the majority of people who were illiterate, rhyming schemes would have aided in the transmission of the stories.[7]
But this tripartite division of folk narratives is actually borrowed from Western literary theory; see e.g. Bascom's 1965 The Forms of Folklore: Prose Narratives. The Korean word translated as "story of god" is actually "myth", "the story handed down" is "legend", and "the story handed down from the private sector" is "folktale."
Furthermore, Korean never uses rhyme; the word translated here as "rhyme" seems to be unyul, whose correct English equivalent is poetic meter. So while none of the information here is fundamentally inaccurate, it's misleading. A more accurate version would be:
Borrowing the traditional Western categorization, Korean folk narratives are divided into myths, which are sacred; legends, which are believed to be historically true; and folktales, which are not necessarily taken as fact. Most narratives are prose, but some involve poetic meter, which would have helped their oral transmission.
There seem to be similar issues throughout the article. For example, the "Four Ceremonial Occasions" section fails in contextualization by not mentioning the fact that all four rituals (the capping ceremony, the wedding, the funeral, the ancestral rite) are mandated in the Chinese Book of Rites and have nothing that is uniquely Korean.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 00:32, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
By salvageable I mean it's all basically accurate and sourced (and is written in better English). Adding full context etc. would be a much bigger job. I'm glad you know what "the story handed down from the private sector" means, because that was incomprehensible to me when I was trying to copyedit it. Now that you've clarified, I see similar information in page 16 of the source, which mentions a "mythology (sinhwa), legends (jeonseol), and folk tales (mindam)" split. CMD (talk) 01:24, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Chipmunkdavis: In that sense I'd say the material is salvageable with a good deal of copyediting. I've checked a few sources and they generally do support the statements, when there are issues it's usually a problem of mistranslation (like "rhyme" above).--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 13:31, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've had a go at copyediting what I can, although there are some areas which I don't feel I understand what the sentence is trying to say enough to rewrite it without risking additional misinterpretations. (For example, I cannot tell if "When they get old, they are supported by the elderly and die" is an error or an indication of elderly support groups.) During my editing I adjusted the other women story sections too, as the interpretations provided did not appear in those sources. Based on the English sources present in the article, criticising the patriarchy actually seems to be quite a common theme throughout various forms of Korean expression, which lines up well with your translation of the EKFC. Almost every form of art seems to critise the urban elite at some point as well. Perhaps this is a key factor in what separates the oral literature from the written literature which would have been the preserve of the urban elites? CMD (talk) 13:29, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The article reads a lot better now, thank you so much.
I've done some more cleanup. "Seolhwa" is just a wasei kango for the Western academic term "[oral] folklore" and is not a Korean cultural feature, so I've been bold and removed the entire paragraph because its discussion could apply to any human culture. I've also introduced academically established terminology (e.g. capping / wedding / funeral / ancestral rites for the four central events in an East Asian person's life) and added some contextualization.
As an aside, I'm wondering about the reliability of Britannica here as a non-specialist tertiary source. The claim that "the spirits of the departed do not leave the earth for several generations" seems to be false, both anecdotally based on my lived experience and in academic studies of Korean shamanic ritual—see e.g. Cheongjeong-gaksi. Spirits that have not left the earth are those who have been wronged in life (e.g. murder victims, suicides) and are considered highly dangerous to the living. The notion seems to come from the Confucian (not just Korean) practice of offering sacrifices only up to the great-great-grandparents, but according to EKFC this is not because of religious beliefs but because 1) the great-great-grandparent is the most removed ancestor that someone could plausibly have known on a personal basis, back when people used to have children in their teens; and 2) only the descendants of the same great-great-grandparents are considered kin in East Asian practice. The Britannica entry on Tangun is quite misinformed compared to (if I can toot my own horn) the relevant Wikipedia section in the Korean mythology article.
About the subversive nature of Korean oral literature that you mention, there's certainly some truth to it—the oral literature was largely transmitted by lower-class people, especially women, for other lower-class people. At the same time, I think it tells you more about the nature of modern South Korean society that studies these narratives, especially the tradition of student-based revolutionary politics and the ongoing feminist movement which is perhaps the strongest in all of Asia.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 05:57, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I can't comment on the specific applicability of the term seolhwa, but I think the removal of the entire paragraph may have been too much, as for example the information on the various written records feels pertinent. If there are a number of sources that contradict Britannica on one particular point, then I'd remove that point and replace it with EKFC or another source. I don't know if I'd extend that to considering the whole source unreliable though.
I am wary of attributions of modern social views on older stories, but the connections stood out to me as they were mentioned across multiple sources on different topics. I didn't see the sources suggest retelling was mostly undertaken by women, although that would align with the themes. CMD (talk) 04:35, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Chipmunkdavis: The problematic instances of Britannica have been removed and replaced with EKFC, and some of the material in the seolhwa paragraph specific to Korea was reinstalled. The Dangun paragraph was also removed entirely and replaced with a folktale that's actually about a woman. You might want to have a look again.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 08:03, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Does the EFKC elaborate on how Princess Bari saves her parents? It's not clear to me from your rewrite. The Encyclopedia of Korean Folk Literature says she brought them back to life at their funeral, so I can readd that if needed. CMD (talk) 09:02, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Chipmunkdavis: A fuller summary of the narrative can be found in Korean mythology#Princess Bari. She is told that her parents’ fatal illness can be cured only by a medicinal water from the Western Heaven. She goes there, but her parents die in the meantime and she has to pick the flowers of resurrection that grow in the afterlife as well. She interrupts the funeral procession, open the coffins, and touch her parents’ bones with the flowers, which restores their lives. The water is used afterwards to cure the disease.-Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 10:02, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just a quick message to again offer my thanks for your review of Santería. I was planning on taking Rastafari over to FAC soon(ish) - that one is even longer than Santería so maybe I should do some trimming first! Have a good weekend. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:39, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Yukjin dialect, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Umlaut. Such links are usually incorrect, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. (Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.)
Many thanks for your impressive output. I don't know how you create maps and diagrams, but I'd like to recommend generating them as SVG if it's convenient. SVG scales more attactively, but most importantly it's easier for others to edit, e.g. for translations into other languages. Kanguole07:33, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Kanguole: Thanks for the notice, I'll try to make SVG files from now on. I'd also like to thank you for teaching me quite a lot, just from your copy-editing of my writing; I wouldn't have learned about things like Template:Sfn without you. Have a nice day!--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 04:49, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Vice regent: I was previously aware of Pierce, and I found the others in an offline catalogue of academic publications. And sure, you can add them to your table. And here are some general reference works worth adding, maybe:
The current edition of the Encyclopaedia of Islam, the standard reference work for the field, has the entry title "Concubinage in Islamic law", which clarifies in its first sentence that "it is used to refer to a slave woman who is a man's legal sexual partner as a result of his ownership of her" but nonetheless consistently refers to these women as concubines and to the practice as concubinage.
Oxford's Islam: A Very Short Introduction makes three references to "concubinage" and zero to "sexual slavery" or variants.
Leila Ahmed's Women and Gender in Islam—perhaps the seminal English-language work in the field—makes 69 references to "concubine" or "concubinage" and 0 to "sexual slavery" or variants.
The requested move was closed as "no consensus", but it seems quite a few people during the move commented that "Concubinage in Islam" can be split into a separate article. I'm beginning to agree with that and there seems to be precedent: for example Islamic views on slavery is separate from Slavery in 21st century Islamism. Similarly jihad is separate from Islamic terrorism. In fact you raised the possibility of separating out "Sexual slavery in modern Islamism" into a separate article. So I'm thinking of creating a draft of "Concubinage in Islam" (to cover the concept as discussed in the Quran, Sunnah and classical treatises on Islamic law) and making it as accurate and neutral as possible. What are your thoughts? VRtalk15:59, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Vice regent: Just some disorganized thoughts. I think there are a few potential topics that can be made on this:
Ma malakat aymanukum: This article is truly a mess, but ideally it should be focused on the Qur'anic context of this practice as can be gleaned solely from the Quran and the wider Arabic context.
Concubinage in Islam? I'm skeptical that this could work. The gap between tenth-century Abbasid practices and seventeenth-century Javanese practices is simply unbreachably wide. It's like writing an article on Slavery in Christianity that purports to describe all forms of slavery by all Christian societies—it's just not valid as an encyclopedic topic. This approach is what has led to the current article, which brews together all sorts of times and places, actual practice and juristic ideals in a transparently biased way.
Thanks for your thoughts! You correctly point out the problems with covering a wide range of practices in a single article and those can be seen at History of slavery in the Muslim world.
Good Article Review, "Life replacement narratives"
This is to let you know that your nomination of Life replacement narratives for Good Article Review has been accepted by a reviewer, and a start page has been created. This review is likely to take 7 days to complete, so please check back on the review from time to time so you may keep up to date with queries emerging from the review itself. --Whiteguru (talk) 03:33, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The article Life replacement narratives you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Life replacement narratives for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already appeared on the main page as a "Did you know" item, or as a bold link under "In the News" or in the "On This Day" prose section, you can nominate it within the next seven days to appear in DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On This Day" column do not affect DYK eligibility. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Whiteguru -- Whiteguru (talk) 23:02, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Renata3: Thanks for the notice! :) The sources were all there but it was the input in the sfn templates that was wrong, everything should be fixed now. I’ll have a look at that script!--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 05:42, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Korean mythology you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of MisterCake -- MisterCake (talk) 22:00, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Samgong bon-puri you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Whiteguru -- Whiteguru (talk) 09:41, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The article Samgong bon-puri you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Samgong bon-puri for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already appeared on the main page as a "Did you know" item, or as a bold link under "In the News" or in the "On This Day" prose section, you can nominate it within the next seven days to appear in DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On This Day" column do not affect DYK eligibility. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Whiteguru -- Whiteguru (talk) 05:41, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Mengdu you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Ganesha811 -- Ganesha811 (talk) 22:01, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Karaeng, are you still around? I'm about done with the GA review but would like your commentary on a minor thing before I finalize it. Hope to see you back on Wikipedia soon! Ganesha811 (talk) 15:04, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The article Mengdu you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Mengdu for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already appeared on the main page as a "Did you know" item, or as a bold link under "In the News" or in the "On This Day" prose section, you can nominate it within the next seven days to appear in DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On This Day" column do not affect DYK eligibility. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Ganesha811 -- Ganesha811 (talk) 13:01, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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Hi. Thanks for expanding the article. However, I found a problem: in the table of numerals, you used a spurious hanja, e.g. in "一". That character is in the PUA of some unidentified font, and so can't be used on WP. (You claimed that it was defined in the SIL fonts, but that's not so.) Could you fix please? In the meantime, I've replaced it with "[missing character]".
