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User talk:John Hill/Archive04Continued discussion of previous archived page
Hi John. I've just created a Tibetan Buddhism template. Could you help develop it? It is to replace the too generalized Buddhism template on Tibetan articles ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ Talk? 20:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC) I think the main Buddhism template is too generic for all of the Tibetan buddhist articles such as lamas etc. It is a very a large subject in its own right but its on the right track -this should replace the main Buddhism template I think for Tibet. Perhaps you could add all of the key belief systems etc. pLease can you respond to me on this one ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ Talk? 20:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC) Yep I agree with you on all points. I think it is important we keep the burgundy to reflect the robes but I'm not certain how to change the colour to black and keep it wikilinked. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ Talk? 10:14, 6 January 2008 (UTC) As for changing the photo? What could be more suitable than having an image of the founder of Tibetan Buddhism? ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ Talk? 10:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC) I'm confused John you're sending me mixed messages. I thought you said while it was great that I used your image you said somebody would come along and replace it. I thought it was fine anyway. I only changed it because I didn't see the point of somebody else coming along and replacing it. I'll restore it -just a little curious to think why you thought somebody might change it later. Theres no point in restoring it if somebody else is going to revert it but I;ll do it ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ Talk? 12:04, 7 January 2008 (UTC) Yes incidentally I was thinking about Bon yesterday and what a contradiction it was that it pre dated buddhism in Tibet yet has been labelled by His Holiness as a fifth school. Ideally that needs a bit more coverage. Notice I didn't add the Tibetan Buddhism template to it as it seemed a bit contradictory but it may as well be there. Luckily I managed to get hold of a cheap and rather basic guide to Cambodia - there should be some basics I can add to the articles which are seriously lacking at present. I wish I could gain access to a library in this area and try to find some books on Tibet , Burma and Cambodia =both Barry and Cardiff library have temporarily closed! ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ Talk? 12:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC) Hey no probs!! I preferred your image too but when you said something about somebody will change it I was wondering why. I've lightened the burgundy. The only way I can get the text black is to unwiki the links in the headers. Man I've been busy today check it out!!! Best regards buddy ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ Talk? 22:06, 7 January 2008 (UTC) That Japanese magazine sounds like fun and quite quirky! - perhaps you could post a copy through a vent in my Japanese volcano ! lol! regards ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ Talk? 22:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC) What on earth is Redtigerxyz talking about? I thought the maroon and gold colours were about as evocative of Tibetan Buddhism as we can get. As for bright colours -what about all of those beautiful prayer flags, thangkas and sand mandalas!!! lol ♦ Dr. Blofeld ♦ Talk? 10:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Flickr image blockHi John. Can you do a test for me and see if you can save any image from flickr into your pictures. I've managed to negotiate with somebody on flickr to upload many images on cambodia and laos and when I save them they are coming out as blanks. It looks like flickr as programmed some kind of protection on their images to prevent anybody lifting them from the site using "spaceball". Could you see if this happens to you also. Thanks ♦ Dr. Blofeld ♦ Talk? 13:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC) Possible contributions to Australian Aboriginal mythology!??I noted a few of your edits, every now and then, as the Australian Aboriginal mythology article was 'upgraded' and 'expanded' - thanks for those, plus your initial encouragement! Included within your edits have been references to Cook/Cooktown/Gugu Yimidhir and other relevant (and interesting!) materials that I do not myself have immediate access to! I was wondering : a) from within your Cook/Cooktown/Gugu Yimidhir material - whether you have references documenting local Cooktown/Gugu Yimidhir stories/myths about their encounters with EMS Endeavour crew (including Cook?).. and, if so, whether some version of this/these stories/myths might be added to the section on Captain Cook? b) from within your other Aboriginal mythological materials (eg Havilan and Hart on Barrow point?) - whether you might be able to include some version and/or associated commentary on that mythology under the appropriate language name .. within the individual groups name .. to start putting some balance to the current anthropological literary favourites in the Northern Territory (I'm about to do one for the Aranda)?? I thought I'd ask! Cheers Bruceanthro (talk) 13:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The references for Tibet.You had a few justified removals, but then you accidentally started to review the Afghanistan list thinking it is the Tibet list (its an easy mistake to make, no worries; I've made it before), so I reverted a couple edits of yours. Thegreyanomaly (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 05:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC) Yecheng/Kargilik CountyI'd like to see your thoughts on the proposed merge of Yecheng to Kargilik County. Please give your comments on Talk:Kargilik County. Thanks. --Nlu (talk) 17:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC) Tibet history enhancementsHi John, I appreciate your enhancements to my additions in Tibet's history. It looks like you have even more historical details you could (and should) add. A while back I got real frustrated at the Tibet and History of Tibet articles because they were written almost as bad as the Korean history articles. It's next to impossible to get an idea of a nation's borders at most points of its history by reading some of the Wiki-history articles, so I'm applying some of the info I gather while creating my maps to the articles. Thomas Lessman (talk) 22:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC) InfoboxesHI John. Just to let you know I've got the parameters fixed inti Infobox Monarch for Tibetan/Chinese. Those blues boxes now should be intergrated into the main one. See Songsten Gampo. Could you help decluttering pages you know of by intergrating the chinese boxes into the monarch main plate? Thanks ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ Talk? 17:59, 16 January 2008 (UTC) OK no probs take care - I just saw your message but you missed my talk page and left a message on my user page!!! I rarely look there! ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ Talk? 15:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC) LOL!! I thought it was amusing, I've done that before too. Hey happy 65th!! I thought you were 63 turning 64. I must have missed a year!!! Take care of yourself and hope to see you editing in a few weeks. Best regards ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ Talk? 12:18, 19 January 2008 (UTC) Welcome back friend. Hope you had a great time and didn't swim in too much magma! ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ $1,000,000? 11:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC) HI friend. See Tenzin Gyatso. Gradually we can get shot of those hounding blue translation boxes and can add it to the main one. Looks much better doesn't it. If you could help merge boxes for many of the lamas this would be great -I'm afraid I'm a bit busy adding french towns at present. Have you noticed how the edit count has jumped from 2,225,000 to 2.236,000 in a two or three days? Well thats me! ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 22:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC) Hey. We now have an image for every reincarnation of the Karmapa. Beautiful images I uploaded about 12 of them. I'll aim to continue with adding those articles on Tibetan art some time too ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 01:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC) LosarJohn Hill, Losar is currenting happening, how may I ensure that it is flagged as a current event? Is there a News Wiki article that this Wikipedia article can interwiki? How may I progress this? Is there anything else you recommend? Hi JohnHi John. I am again being attacked by User:Elonka and some of her supporters in relation to the Franco-Mongol alliance article: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Franco-Mongol_alliance/Workshop. I don't really want to draw you into this, but your knowledge of the workings of Central Asian history makes you a reference on these subjects. Please feel free to share your opinions. Best regards. PHG (talk) 02:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC) Maralinga, South AustraliaThanks for picking the minimisation up at Maralinga, South Australia Paul foord (talk) 01:01, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
KabulHi John, I know this is a while ago, but I've just come across this edit of yours [1] at Kabul. The summary you gave was "a few additions", but the edit consisted for the most part of replacing the BC notation, used from the outset of the article, with the BCE notation. I think "a few additions" is stretching it somewhat, unless you meant the addition of 'E' to 'BC'. As I'm sure you know, changes such as the one you made don't comply with the Wikipedia policy, especially when the edit summary doesn't explain what's being done. Can you recall why this change was made? I'm thinking of reverting it, but would welocme your comments first. Thanks, 82.20.19.200 (talk) 00:20, 22 March 2008 (UTC) Reply on use of Common EraHi! Well, yes, this was indeed a long time ago - October 2005 as I discovered on serching - an edit I made early in my "Wiki career". I made 4 changes of era names in that edit (plus added a phrase of text) from the Christian era nomenclature, ie. I changed BC = "before Christ" and AD = Anno domini = "Year of our Lord" to the newer, but neutral and more widely acceptable BCE ("Before Common Era") and CE ("Common Era") for several reasons: 1. It does not seem seem appropriate to use a Christian-based era to date events in a country which is almost totally Muslim. This is rather similar to dating events in, for example, Roman history in the Hegira era - 622 CE (or AD) marking the first year of the Islamic calendar, or 1 AH (anno higirae)]. It would be surprising to me if Christian Italians (and probably other Christian groups) did not complain if someone started doing this. 2. Both Muslim and Jewish scholars have complained to me about the use of the "Christian Era" for dating, and preferred the use of the "Common Era" and several suggested I use it in my writings. 3. The use of the "Christian Era" was introduced around the world by European imperial powers who made a point of ignoring local eras (such as the Saka Era in India or the Hejira Era in Muslim countries) and substituting their own era and system of dating on their colonies and in the scientific and historical literature. 4. The so-called "Christian Era" is misleading anyway as almost all scholars - including Christian ones - now agree that it is most unlikely that Jesus was born in 1 AD. But, because the "Common Era" has been decided to start in 1 AD, and this is just a convenient decision, it does not imply any particlar accuracy in relation to historical events and does not carry with it religious or imperialistic overtones. I hope that explains my decision. I don't, myself, feel very strongly about the use of one over the other (and it is very easy to get used to both - as they are so similar), but I do think it best not to unnecessarily annoy people of other cultures and faiths. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 08:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi Chris! Kabul is certainly not a religious topic per se, but it is the capital of a strongly Muslim country. I see BC and AD as inaccurate anomalies - although I agree they are widely recognised. However, it's up to you - either system is fine with me though the use of CE and BCE seem to be more widely used by scholars these days - particularly by non-Christian scholars. Anyway, whatever you do, I suggest having a look at the Wikipedia article on the Common Era and consider why the use of the so-called "Christian Era" may be offensive to some. Best wishes, John Hill (talk) 03:19, 24 March 2008 (UTC) From Jim ArcherAre you the John Hill who attended Lakefoeld School with me. Email is vientianepigeon at yahoo.com I cannot use the symbol for at on this computer in Perú. Doesn't work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.41.192.214 (talk) 22:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC) Looking for Wikipedians for a User StudyHello. I am a graduate student in the Department of Computer Science and Engineering at the University of Minnesota. We are conducting research on ways to engage content experts on Wikipedia. Previously, Wikipedia started the Adopt-a-User program to allow new users to get to know seasoned Wikipedia editors. We are interested in learning more about how this type of relationship works. Based on your editing record on Wikipedia, we thought you might be interested in participating. If chosen to participate, you will be compensated for your time. We estimate that most participants will spend an hour (over two weeks on your own time and from your own computer) on the study. To learn more or to sign up contact katpa@cs.umn.edu or User:KatherinePanciera/WPMentoring. Thanks. KatherinePanciera (talk) 02:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Please add Tibetan people article to your watchlist.Hi John! I think you should add this article to your watchlist. Please see its History and you will know how I called you! Thank you! Good luck! Angelo De La Paz (talk) 15:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC) Ethnic Origins of Foreign Figurines found in Tang TombsDear John: We are trying to obtain images from the home areas of “foreigners” who were depicted in Tang tombs with the hope that they can be matched up with the figurines found. Any suggestions as to where we could find appropriate paintings/murals/coins etc. would be very much appreciated. I am not sure if this is an appropriate way to contact you but I could not find your email address on any piece you had written.
Ever
Michael S. Sanders Director of Expeditions and Research Ancient Cultures Research Foundation Mike.Sanders@AncientCultures.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.27.157.2 (talk) 20:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC) Speedy deletion of Image:Guru Rinpoche - Padmasambhava statue.jpg A tag has been placed on Image:Guru Rinpoche - Padmasambhava statue.jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section I8 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is available as a bit-for-bit identical copy on the Wikimedia Commons under the same name, or all references to the image on Wikipedia have been updated to point to the title used at Commons. If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding
Gimme danger is looking for editors to improve the History of Tibet to Good Article status. Since you've contributed to the article in the past, I hope you'll be able to participate. (talk) 00:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC) How are you these days?. I don't hear much from you anymore!! Howz things? Have you been away? ♦ Dr. Blofeld ♦ "Visit Mr. Bigglesworth?" 09:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
John Hill (talk) 07:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC) Hi JohnHi John, Citations have been put in that most western scholars do NOT view Jats as Aryans. Finally someone has started to put this article right by highlighting that most western scholars for the last 200 years view Jats as Indo-Scythians NOT as User:LRBurdak has been pushing POV as Jats being Aryan.--Trv93 (talk) 08:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
third dalai lama - qinghai vs. hohhotHi, it seems you added some info about the meeting between altan khan and the (would-be) third dalai lama to some articles, including the ones on Altan Khan and the 3rd Dalai Lama themselves. I am pretty sure all sources I have read so far locate this meeting near lake Qinghai. The Mongolian name of the lake (and the whole region) is Köke naγur (Blue lake), so I guess it is possible to confuse it with Hohhot (Köke qota, Blue town). Would it be conceivable that you or your source are mixing up these two places? Yaan (talk) 11:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
While the most implausible theory can stay in wikipedia, why not the one makes more sense?Mr.Hills, I saw your translation of chinese documents, it is a great work!. But I am strongly disagree your position on your views on Tocharian and Uighurs. In this whole article, you and others keep talking about Tocharians without any mention to Uighurs. Apparently you also supporting the extreme chinese view that "uighur expelled" the tocharians . Where did you find that evidence? do you have any slightest proof?. As you and other chinese scholars translated , the chinese monk Xuanzang saw Kashgarians with green eyes. The mongolians called Uyghurs "color eyed people" . 11th century's Uyghur turkolog Kashgarli Mehmud called kashgar the city of Turan, and wrote kashgar is the ancient homeland of his forefathers. He never mentioned any mass genocide or expelling you referring to. Today you still can see mostly caucasion looking kashgarian and khotenese Uyghurs (see these extreme examples with so called white features: http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4778/2314836332e36b2ac7b8bpv5.jpg , http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3121/22430775076281cb598bcg6.jpg). Do you honestly believe these people came from Mongolia??. For me and so many scholars, Uighur population is the mixture of tocharian and turkic (hun) people make more sense and more plausable. While most implausible theory with no evidence can stay in wikipedia, why not the one makes more sense. Thanks FACT NEEDED (talk) 04:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC) I am puzzledDear "FACT NEEDED": I am very puzzled by your comments above. There appears to be some misunderstanding. First of all, I am not sure which article you are talking about. As far as I can remember, I have never said that Uighurs expelled "Tocharians" from anywhere. If you are talking about my draft translations of the 'Chapter on the Western Regions' from the Hou Hanshu and the Weilüe which can be found on the Silk Road Seattle website hosted by the University of Washington, these deal with events which happened well before the first historical reference to the Uighurs during the Wei dynasty (386-534 CE). Please let me know what I have written that upsets you and where you found it so I can try to answer any criticisms you may have. Many thanks, John Hill (talk) 09:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC) erdene zuu not the first monastery in mongolia?Hi, I think you added that "(wrongly)" to the claim that erdene zuu was the first monastery in mongolia. is this because there were other monasteries in inner mongolia before, or because there were other monasteries in outer mongolia before? discussion is at Talk: History of Tibet. Regards, Yaan (talk) 17:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Age of minority/majorityOn Category:Child rulers from Asia - d'oh! Thanks for picking up that slip!--Iacobus (talk) 05:18, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
PeripetiesDear John, thank you for your very kind words. Actually lately I was mostly adding to Turkology. From WordWeb [[2]]: "peripety, peripeties, peripetias, peripeteias" A sudden and unexpected change of fortune or reverse of circumstances (especially in a literary work). What they should also have said is that this change of fortune has negative connotations. If you suddenly won a lottery, it is not a peripety, but if you have won, and your ticket was stolen, then it is. Also, [[3]]. WordWeb suggests "surprise" as a synonym, but it does not have a right connotation, and I could not find a simpler word to properly phrase a sentence. Any improvement would be very welcome. Until end of May I am in Latin America, with somewhat problematic access sometimes. Be aware that your words are a great joy for me. --Barefact (talk) 06:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
KhotanI figured out the Khotan issue. See here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 07:50, 3 May 2008 (UTC) It is a mistakeDear Mr. Hill, I am so sorry, I concede for my mistake. My comment was about tocharians. Actually that statement was written by somebody else. The view I was talking about were these: "According to a controversial theory, early invasions by Turkic speakers may have pushed Tocharian speakers out of the Tarim Basin and into ancient Soghdian where they became assimilated in the population". This states implicitly imply Uyghur's Turkic ancestors expelled Tocharians. Another point I want to argue was, Whatever the mixture, Uyghurs should be considered decendents of ancient original indo-europian inhabitants of Tarim Basin. Mixing with Turks and Mongolians would not make them irrelevant to their ancestors. We can find so many evidences(culturally , historicly and geniticly) that modern Uyghurs are related to original indo-europian inhabitants which includes tocharians. Unfortunately this whole "tocharian" article only mentions Uyghur once. Once again , I am extremely sorry for the confusion. By the way, I learned a lot from your translation!!. Great work!! FACT NEEDED (talk) 04:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC) Thank you so much for the clarificationDear FACT NEEDED: Thank you so much for your apology - it is totally accepted. I know only too well from my own experience how easy it is to make such mistakes in the Wikipedia. As we say here in Australia, "no worries, mate!" Also, thanks so much for you praise of my work - I am glad you found it useful - even though the early drafts available on the Silk Road Seattle site are now well out of date and contain (I am ashamed to say) a number of errors - some serious. Most of them I have now corrected - but I am still working on it constantly. I hope to make a much revised, corrected and updated version available later this year. However, in the meantime, if you have any queries, please do not hesitate to write to me. All best wishes, John Hill (talk) 04:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC) PS. I agree with you that modern Uighurs are almost certainly descended from a variety of early peoples including the early, basically Caucasoid, tribes of the region.
HomageGreat job on the "History of Tibet" now please lock it down....Ubuibiok (talk) 23:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC) TibetWhats happened to this article?. The intro was appallingly short. No mention of the Dalai Lama?, Buddhism?, Lhasa? nothing. Many of the sections became short and snappy. It really was a shame. It just looked like somebody came along and just deleted entire chunks of text with paying any attention to copy editing it. We had gone from a very informative although too long history section to something which was barely of use. Sure the history article should contain the vast majority of the info but you still need a half decent history in the article rather than three lines. I restored it in part and seriously cut down the histiry section so it isn't barely a few lines or 30kb long either but is adequate and an outline that is very useful. I'll give it some more editing over the next few days. It still needs a huge amuont of work so that it is done properly and doesn't affect the quality of the article. I have tried to remove sections which are POV and to address neutrality but I care too much about it to find the version I found earlier as an acceptable improvement. I aopolgise if I have readded anything which shouldn't be there but I believe the article is a lot better than it was earlier. It is such an incredibly difficult article to control and write. I'll be keeing a very vclose wathc on this from now on as I won't see it eroded like that .It echoes what happened to the Che Guevara article which got the same treatment. But this of course happens when an article gets so much traffic and when it is over edited. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 18:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC) ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 18:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC) John if I've cut anything out that you;ve worked on it wasn't intentional. I gave it a quick summarization but if I cut anything out you added that was important we should discuss how to intergrate it into the article again. Could you discuss with me some time how the article can progress from here? I only have the best possible intentions. Look forward to hearing from you ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 21:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC) Tibet history editsHi Ernst! I am so sorry that I have upset you with my edits on Tibet. I knew this was going to be a most difficult (and controversial) job and that I had very limited time to do it in. I was so upset that having the two articles each with very large sections on Tibetan history was leading to contradictions, confusion and far too much duplication leading to an inability for readers to follow all the additions and POV aguments which were being added to each. It really was a confusing jumble and, I judged, made it impossible for ordinary readers to get any sort of coherent picture of Tibetan history. It seemed important to me to have the vast bulk of the historical discussions available in one place where the contradictions and unnecessarily long-winded duplications would become more immediately obvious and, therefore, more easily corrected. One of the main problems has been that it all has taken much longer than I thought - so I hadn't got back to rewriting a much more concise history section before others started working on it. When I first copied out the history section alone of the Tibet article it filled 15 full A4 pages in Word and was a tangled mess of some excellent material mixed up with numerous contradictions and repetitions and poorly referenced POVs. I tried unsuccessfully to straighten it out and then decided the only thing to do was to remove it entirely and try my best to merge it into the History of Tibet article before coming back to write an historical précis for the main Tibet page (something I never got back to do). I am very sorry it has not worked out as well as I had hoped and now I have to ask others to help get both articles back up to speed again. I hope, though, that the exercise has not been totally in vain. It should, at least, be easier now to see what needs to be done. I hope so. BTW I haven't (recently anyway) edited any other sections of the Tibet article - so I'm not responsible for the state of the Intro or other sections. I agree they need a lot more work. Apologies for all the hassles. Best wishes, John Hill (talk) 22:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC) Re:Thanks for your work on the history section of Tibet articleYou're very welcome John, but it seems that our edits, which made the introduction and history sections short/simplified, are not quite widely accepted. - MainBody (talk) 08:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC) Sorry if I seemed like i was complaining at yourself. Not at all but just a little shocked at how it had changed and this is clear in my immediate reaction above. I am the biggest fan of your work on central asian history and have the greatest of respect for you personally -you know this. Naturally the history section needed cutting down a great deal but I strongly felt the intro and history sections had been done a little too much. For me the history section should outline the history in a summary and cover the main points -this for me would be from gampo to present but summarizing the main events etc. Obviously any real detail should be in the seperate history articles (or which you;ve done a remarkabke job). I deeply apologise if you or MainBody feel I've discarded any efforts you have made to genuinely improve. If I have put anything back in problematic please please either of you discuss it so we can improve it. I;ve tried to do it in a way that it is still a interesting summary and read but isn't 30kb like it used to be. How are you mate anyway? Best wishes ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 09:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC) I absolutely agree with you. The most important thing is that the history section is completely balanced and it flows in an informative section which highlights the most important events in its history but isn't too long and POV. But without a doubt it needs a great deal of work as writing a summary of a huge history isn't an easy task to say the least. WHat I did is try to filter out what I didn't think was important for the main article and give it the bones to work around it and come up with the goods between us all. SOme of it may not be focused in places particularly modern history but it should all completely flow, be reliably referenced and neutrally balanced. What is very important however is that it has the ability to summarize the main points in its history which is very informative and develops an understanding but is done so in the most concise way possible.Best regards ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ White Cat 10:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC) Apologies Re. Tibet HistoryDear MainBody and Blofeld of Spectre: Thank you both for your concern - not only for the articles but for me. I really must apologise to both of you for causing all this fuss and giving you both extra work and headaches. I have just written a letter on Blofeld of Spectre's Talk Page which gives my reasons for what I have done and thoughts about where we can go from here - so, to avoid having to repeat it all - I will just paste in the letter here:
Thanks again to both of you for your hard work and concern. I do think getting this right is really very important and there is a real urgency to getting it done now - I just wish I had more time and energy to work on it myself - so I am having to dump most of the responsibility on you and other well-intentioned people. Cheers, and best wishes with it all. John Hill (talk) 10:39, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message. It would be good if we could find a smiling buddha instead!!!! Tnanks -good work on the Tibet article too! ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 11:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC) If the Buddha doesn't bring a smile to yourface try reading the recently promoted Tibet during the Ming Dynasty. Our first WP:Tibet FA article! ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 21:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC) Dalai Lama and images  Your're in Hong Kong? Great. I absolutely loved Hong Kong. Didn't go across to Macau though. I bet your having a great time!! Are you using your laptop or the hotel computer?? This evening I worked a bit on the Dalai Lama article and expanded it a fair bit I'm sure you'll notice a considerable change from when you last looked at it. My only wish is that I had the books and resources you have as I would have a go at developing it to FA standard. I tried to incorporate some of your reference work as much as I could. If only I had the books. I also found several new images of the Palden Lhamo and a stunning 17th century depiction of Jokhang from the Potala. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 21:06, 17 May 2008 (UTC) Keep me posted on your trip!!! Having a good time? ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 12:00, 25 May 2008 (UTC) John.. remember to post messages to User talk:Blofeld of SPECTRE. The last five or so messages you sent were posted on my user page!!!! Best regards ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 09:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC) Sounds great, keep me posted... My grandmother will be 103 years old this year. My granddad was 93 I think. If he was around today he would have been 108 in September! My father will be 60 this year, he is the youngest in a family of 7, his oldest sister being about 84... ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 09:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC) History of Tibet PageBravo! I haven't been able to participate much this quarter, but I just wanted to say that it's already looking much better than it did in April. Thumbs up, and keep up the great work. Longchenpa (talk) 21:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC) Yes great work John. But on the main Tibet page I should try to condense it though as it is a bit too long at present. Its not easy summarizing an entire history is it!!! ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 22:09, 31 May 2008 (UTC) Hello good friend John hope the travels are good. If you have a moment could you see about developing the Tashichoedzong article? I'd love to see a fuller artile on it. Perhaps you have something in a book when you return ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 23:59, 20 June 2008 (UTC) ParentiHi, you recently added another comment on Parenti at the Tibet Talk page. While I won't judge on Parenti's overall reliability when it comes to Tibet (does he at least speak Tibetan?) I think your point re. Khubilai's Grand Lama is mistaken. Parenti is probably referring to Drogön Chögyal Phagpa and not confusing anyone at all, i.e. IMO there is nothing wrong with the passage you quoted. Regards, Yaan (talk) 11:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Armenian gravestonesRegarding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Armenian_gravestones._Lake_Van._.JPG
Mt. Varag in the distance and I recognise some of the other fallen stones shown on the website. Thanks for your continued interest in this photo. Cheers and best wishes. John Hill (talk) 19:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
issues with an IP on South Asia regarding TibetI am having issues with an IP regarding Tibet. They have been citing A History of Modern Tibet, 1913-1951 by Goldstein and one other book. I feel their citations somewhat ignore the pro-Tibetan information in favor of the anti-Tibetan/pro-PRC information. If you have read these books or have access to these books, please help. Thegreyanomaly (talk) 08:10, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Tibet at times has governed itself as an independent state and at other times has had various levels of association with China[1], it became under Chinese control in the 18th century in spite of British efforts to seize possession of this Chinese protectorate at the beginning of the 20th century.[2][3][4] The content above is well-balanced NPOV and well-sourced, UserThegreyanomaly's removal seems more like vandalism or POV pushing. Secondly, I would like to show you the vandalism-like behaviour by user:Thegreyanomaly: [6] Obviously, with no explanation User:Thegreyanomaly removed the Unreferenced tag that I added here. It's obviously vandalism. Please let me know if there is any question. 219.73.86.234 (talk) 08:41, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
ReplyDear all: The questions raised above about Tibet's level of independence from China, are very touchy and disputed subjects, as we all know. Unfortunately, I am still travelling (presently in Hong Kong) and will not have access to my books and notes until I return home at the end of next week and then find the time to get back to Wiki issues. That said - it seems to me that the account by Goldstein as well as by Gernet, Foster, & Hartman are a bit disingenuous as they seem to imply that China retained control over Tibet throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. As I have pointed out previously (and given numerous references), China retained only a very weak claim to Tibet for much of this period and Tibet was, at times, effectively independent. I suggest that we not get into another edit war on these issues as I don't believe they will ever be satisfactorily settled to the satisfaction of people on both sides of the argument. I think the best thing to do is to recognise that we have a real dispute here and try to represent both positions fairly. Please let me know if I can be of further help and I will do my best to deal with any issues raised in the next couple of weeks. Best wishes to you all. John Hill (talk) 03:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC) WELCOME BACK!!!Hi John. I had just logged in when I got your message! How are you?? Wow that was some trip!!!! Hope you are feeling refreshed. My sister has also been away for months. The last year she was living in Silicon Valleyin California teaching. Then when she finished she went to Ecuador and the Galapagos. Then she flew back to San Francsico and then up to Alaska for two weeks. Then she came back to the UK. slept overnight and then flew off for an 8 week tour of South America the following day. She flew to Rio and has crossed Brazil to Iguacu. She has travelled through Paraguay and is now on her way up into Bolivia through places like Potosi up to Lake Titiaca. Then she will cross into Peru and up to Cuzco and Macchu Picchu. Then shes hitting the Peruvian coast and travelling all the way up to Lima before flying home and starting back teaching two days later in the UK!! Exhausting or what??? I haven't been editing Tibetan articles of late. Really I need the sort of books you have to make any real sort of progression. I have however added most of the main towns and villages in Bhutan and expanded articles like Paro, Bhutan, and created Deothang, Gedu etc. I have however also begun developing articles on Central America by translating from spanish wikipedia. The other day I expanded articles such as Altamirano, Chiapas and created and started most of the ones in Template:Chiapas and Apastepeque in El Salvador. Its a good way to improve my knowledge of the language and also to get some culturally important articles written into english. Some of them are fascinating, particularly countries such as Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador and Nicaragua. I also started Coffee production in Costa Rica as I thought a series on coffee production would be a novel one. Great to have you back. Let me know if you can expand Tashichoedzong some time. Very nicely done!! Now take care of yourself it sounds awful. Best wishes ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 16:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC) CitationsSee Talk:Tibet for details on the Wikipedia policy regarding citation of all statements. --Joowwww (talk) 14:11, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Sino-Tibetan Treaty of 821-2 CEHey. Thanks for the treaty text, I enjoyed it. I'm not sure it needs to be quoted in its entirety, though. Maybe the entire text could go in a separate article, and Tibet could briefly summarize. Any thoughts on what the "nephew" and "uncle" bit is about? Simply due to age of the kings at the time, or relative power of these two governments in Asia? Bertport (talk) 02:02, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
VandalismHi John. Its odd but somebody vandalised my user page as if I was the Dalai Lama himself. Yet another PRC basher do you think? ♦ Dr. Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 17:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. Oh I'm not taking it seriously, could have been far worse. Seems strange though that the editor attacked my User page though as if I was the head of the Tibetan Independence cause. Hey have a look at Drukair developed by User:Russavia. I started Tourism in Bhutan yesterday and was glad to find out the government strictly regulates it to high class tourism to protect the landscape and heritage. Love Nepal too, I saw a documentary last night about a Nepali tribe and honey hunting in the Himilayan foothills -fascinating stuff -involved climbing up a 200ft rope ladder and using long poles to chisel off te honeycombs with around 2million bees in them, twice the size of those in the UK -their body mass is important to protect against the cold and altitude. I've found a site which lists basic data on population and demographics on all the villages in the country so soon enough I'll get the Nepal places onto wikipedia. Its a shame there isn't more available to expand our Tibetan geo articles! Regards ♦ Dr. Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 21:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC) Byssus article
Llamids?Hi, what exactly did you mean by this? --Anonymous44 (talk) 12:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I wondered if you would be interested in getting this onto english wikipedia? ALso I;ve moved Definitions of Tibet into its own article as there was a lot of detail and it took up 1/9th of an already large article. A debate on its boundaries should be seperate I think as the main article should be as concise as possible. Nice work and well referenced though! P.S I worked out how to change the colour of the text to white! The Bald One White cat 22:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC) Hello my great friend John. Yes I did think that a summary could replace it in the main article but the thing is it is a subject which involves many interpreations and scholarly views on Tibetan frontiers and definition as an independent nation as well as a conflicting one which isn't easily summarised. An article on it provided it is well balanced and of a neutral nature is perfectly approproate I think and gives the opportunity to go into detail using your wonderful books!! It should still be relatively concise though of course! Yes I loved the look of that portal but unfortunately I couldn't just lift it because of the different french prgramming. What I'll do is either follow the Format of Portal:Thailand or something to emulate or ask somebody who is familiar with portals to help out! My only worry is that some PRC editors will start kicking up a fuss and seeing it as some declaration of Tibetan independence! The Bald One White cat 08:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC) This image caught my eye - a very interesting photograph. I was wondering if you could forward the e-mail referred to in the image description page to WP:OTRS. Haukur (talk) 22:57, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Gö LotsawaJohn - on 28 September 2007 you moved the article 'Gos Khug-pa Lhas-btsas to Gö Lotsawa ~ unfortunately these are two entirely different figures. See my comment at: Talk:Gö_Lotsawa. Since you moved the article nobody seems to have picked up on this mistake and further additions seem to have been made by well intentioned people who obviously don't know much about the subject and have not read their own sources. Anyway the article is now a real mess with things about the two figures mixed together. I don't have time to fix this myself just now. Chris Fynn (talk) 04:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Do you have any knowledge to expand this ? The Bald One White cat 13:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC) Thanks. I thought it looked like something of note but I'm sure you would have something on it if it was. It could be deleted of there is nothing to back it up or verify it. Regards The Bald One White cat 11:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC) Sweet dreams! The Bald One White cat 11:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Altan KhanHi, a while ago you did quite a lot of work on the article on Altan Khan. Unfortunately there seems to be something wrong with the date when he got his title. 1470 is obviously improbable, since this would mean he reached an age of over 110. My guess is that this is a confusion, either by you or by your source, of Altan Khan and Batumongke Dayan Khan, one of Altan Khan's grandfathers. Could you please try and look this up again? Regards, Yaan (talk) 19:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Bothrops atroxHi John, Since I remember that you added some information to the Bothrops atrox article regarding Trinidad, I just wanted to let you know that I've removed it. This is because I recently discovered today that, apparently, the only Bothrops species found on Trinidad is now understood to be Bothrops asper. This is also explained in the B. asper article, which already included mention of its Trinidadian common name, mapepire balsain. Cheers, --Jwinius (talk) 18:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi there, Regarding the Harsha ancestry issue, the user asserting the Lohara is confusing the 11th century Lohara Harsha of Kashmir, with the 6th century Harsha Vardhana. I have elaborated this point on the talk page with the relevant references. Please provide a comment on the talk page? --Tuar (talk) 22:36, 4 September 2008 (UTC) Hello friendHi John. How are you? I've borrowed a book on Tibet:Life, Myth and Art. Its not fantastic but has some pretty good content. I wondered if you had heard of the Path of the Mani or whether we have this article already under a different name? The Bald One White cat 13:51, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Ah OK. All I have on it is Path of the Mani. It is an ancient high road between Nepal and Tibet. Regards The Bald One White cat 21:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC) Hi. I;ve done some work on Tibet/Dharmasala subjects tonight. Perhaps you have something to expand Library of Tibetan Works and Archives or Gaden Choeling Nunnery? Also I;ve created Category:Tibetology which may need filling!!! Best The Bald One White cat 21:27, 23 September 2008 (UTC) Wonderful. Your book sounds amazing!! Good luck with that. See my messages to User talk:Editorofthewiki#Here we go.... You'll see my computer is suffering from exactly the same problems. It keeps sending me false spyware warnings! Luckily by dad is was a former computer operator so he was able to help fix it relatively quickly! P.S I'm making good progress with the Nepalese towns and villages with some help from othera. See the crazy templates at Wikipedia:WikiProject Nepal/District templates for progress. I;ve been using this by Digital Himilaya for the basic demographics. Perhaps you are aware of the work of Digital Himilaya? Gradually there seems to be an increasein Nepali users on here. Lets hope these can be expanded!. Best The Bald One White cat 11:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC) 1973 dated photo in VanHi John, I was so amazed when I saw that photo. I am from Van but I was not even born when you took that picture. May I ask where it was taken..and how your Van impressions were at that time? No need to mention how completely a different city it is now. Best
NowCommons: Image:Van citadel. 1973 .JPGImage:Van citadel. 1973 .JPG is now available on Wikimedia Commons as Commons:Image:Van citadel. 1973.JPG. This is a repository of free media that can be used on all Wikimedia wikis. The image will be deleted from Wikipedia, but this doesn't mean it can't be used anymore. You can embed an image uploaded to Commons like you would an image uploaded to Wikipedia, in this case: [[Image:Van citadel. 1973.JPG]]. Note that this is an automated message to inform you about the move. This bot did not copy the image itself. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:54, 29 September 2008 (UTC) TalkHi John, Image:On_the_way_to_market,_Van,_1973.jpg listed for deletionAn image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:On_the_way_to_market,_Van,_1973.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Nv8200p talk 19:11, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Hello old buddy! How are you? DO you have anything reference material for this Bhutanese monastery and Tango Monastery? Count Blofeld 23:07, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Please see other talk pageHi John, just notifying you of a message I left that you may be able to offer some advice on. Thanks.--Asdfg12345 14:52, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Aboriginal totemism Dear Friend: Thank you for your note. Certainly I would be more than happy to look at the papers you have and give my thoughts on them. However, I should mention that I am not the most qualified person to do this. First of all, I am not Australian Aboriginal (although I have spent almost half my life living in or close to Aboriginal communities in urban, rural and remote settings and have been very privileged to have been taught a few things and shared many priceless and often life-changing experiences with Aboriginal friends and mentors). Additionally, I am not an academic and have never made a serious academic study of Aboriginal cultures. What I do know and can share is limited - and not only from lack of knowledge - but from the lack of permission to discuss many matters publicly - and subjects such as "totemism" should really be explained by properly initiated or trained people who have the authority to speak (subjects such as these are often very sensitive and sacred or secret and subject to strict Aboriginal Law which I will, and must, respect). However, don't be discouraged - please do send the material and I will think about it and discuss it with others who will know better than I what can or should be said about it in the Wikipedia. Then I will get back to you. Cheers and all best wishes, John Hill (talk) 11:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC) PS Perhaps you should also contact 'Bruceanthro' [10] who is an anthropologist actively working on Aboriginal issues.
My Umbrella Tree is dying....Hi John, You seem to know a bit about the Umbrella Tree so thought you might be able to shed some light as to why our beautiful tree is dying. We have a magnificent specimen towering at least 20 metres in our yard which is in the Mowbray Valley (which is about 300kms south of Cooktown). For the past 3 months I have noticed that the leaves are very very droopy and eventually drop off. The foilage on the tree is very sparse these days yet the red flowers seem to be ok attracting a huge flock of lorikeets everyday around 3pm. Not sure what to do with it and it is bordering on being removed. Kind regards, Lisa —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.198.139 (talk) 21:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC) Hi Lisa: Thanks for your query. I am sorry - I don't really know much about Umbrella trees - but I phoned Sandy Lloyd at Nature's PowerHouse in Cooktown who does know about them. Se says that they really need a lot of water (and can be a real problem if planted near drains), and it sounds as if your tree needs more water (because of the "droopy leaves"). Sometimes, also, tree kangaroos eat a lot of the leaves and many drop to the ground - but that wouldn't explain why they are "droopy". So, she suggests just giving it lots of water and see if it recovers. If not, you will probably have to get rid of it - but do keep some of the seeds for replanting (and she thinks you might be able to grow it from a cutting as well - and suggests using some honey on the cutting instead of commercial "rooting powder"). Hope this answers your question. Do let me know what happens. Cheers and best wishes, John Hill (talk) 05:49, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Hello old friend. Ever heard of this? Count Blofeld 21:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC) Yes I had never heard of it either. I did wonder if it was a hoax Count Blofeld 11:21, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
HiHi John! Please note that I have filed a request for appeal here. Comments welcome! Best regards PHG (talk) 16:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC) An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/PHG/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/PHG/Workshop. On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Daniel (talk) 23:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC) Merry Christmas from BaldyMerry Christmas my good friend John down under. Can't believe its Christmas again. Seems like only yesterday you were telling me about it! You'll be pleased to know Portal:Tibet has been started by a kind wikipedian from the Netherlands who saw my request for it. I'm hoping we can alter the colours to saffron/burgundy to refelct the robes! The Bald One White cat 14:48, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 Portal:Tibet all "Tibetanized" and rearing to go!! Hurrah! The Bald One White cat 16:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC) Some new images I uploaded: File:Dorje Ling Nunnery.jpg, File:YangpachenValley.jpg The Bald One White cat 18:49, 16 December 2008 (UTC) Can you expand Yangpachen Monastery? From what I gather the Dorje Ling nunnery is part of the monastery complex? The Bald One White cat 21:33, 16 December 2008 (UTC) I have improved Portal:Tibetan Buddhism also; I'm sure there are more relevant topics, but I'm not a specialist on this subject. There was an error on Portal:Himalaya region that someone fixed on my request. It would be wise too for you and Dr. Blofeld to put all the articles of Category:Portal:Himalaya region and Category:Portal:Tibetan Buddhism on your follow list as well. Good luck! Davin (talk) 12:39, 17 December 2008 (UTC) We've also developed Portal:Tibetan Buddhism with your image at the top right. Is everything allright? I thought you'd be happy with it! 13:15, 17 December 2008 (UTC) Reply to Dr. Ernst Blofeld ("The Bald One") and DavinThank you both for your wonderful Christmas messages and, especially, thanks to Ernst for the beautiful photo of the sand mandala. Also, many thanks are due for all the great work you have each been doing on Tibetan subjects - thousands of people will enjoy and benefit from the fruits of your labour! The portals are great - I will try to add to them when I get some more time. I have done some work on Yangpachen Monastery - I just hope the quotes I have made from Dowman are not too long - I just don't have the time to try to paraphrase them at the moment. One problem - I have been unable to put a caption under the photo of the Dorjeling ani gompa as it is listed as a "file" and not an "image". I don't know how to correct this - but I think it should have a caption to clarify that it is the nunnery and not the monastery. Can either of you two fix this problem? I wish you both a happy and joy-filled holiday season and a healthy, peaceful and prosperous New Year - (if such a state is possible these days)! As we say here in Australia, "Good on the both of you!" It is people like you who make working on the Wikipedia such an enjoyable and worthwhile activity. Cheers, my friends, John Hill (talk) 01:04, 19 December 2008 (UTC) Wonderful! Such a shame the Chinese destroyed most of the monasteries as there were thousands of them. Oh I wish Tibet was free and without its problems. Have a great Christmas anyway and thanks for your kind words! P.S. of late I;ve been doing a lot of work on Nepal and now have Village Development Committee (Nepal) all started! Took me four months but we now have Nepal onto here! All the best! The Bald One White cat 10:47, 19 December 2008 (UTC) Also if you want the caption to appear it doesn't matter if it is file or image. Just add "thumb" to it and it will do it! The Bald One White cat 10:51, 19 December 2008 (UTC) Thank you for your kind words. Both of you make a great amount of contributions. It's really great what you have accomplished yet. Keep on doing the good work! Regards, Davin (talk) 19:28, 21 December 2008 (UTC) KangjuHi John. A while back you asked me to remind you about some edits you were considering for the Kangju article. I went back there today to check out adding a specialized map and remembered that I forgot to remind you! Anyway, I've been doing a lot of work on the various east-hem maps, especially trying to get borders in central Asia more accurate. The maps of 100 AD and 200 AD are 2 examples which show borders of Kangju, as accurately as the sources listed in my sources section. When you have time, could you check out those maps and let me know if you consider their depictions of Kangju accurate enough to add to the article? Thank you in advance, Thomas Lessman (talk) 21:31, 18 December 2008 (UTC) Section headersHi, I noticed you just changed a second-level header into a third-level header. Headers are nested consecutively - all third-level headers should be under second-level ones, and as this is the first subheader in the article it must be a second-level header. See Wikipedia: Guide to layout#Headings and sections for more details. Thanks! Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:10, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Merry Christmas Merry Christmas Hello John Hill! I just wanted to wish you and your family a merry Christmas! May this Christmas be full of great cheer and holiday spirit. Have a great day and a wonderful New Year, from The Bald One White cat 11:25, 25 December 2008 (UTC) DYK for Dorje Pakmo
Sandstein 20:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC) John. I very much appreciate your work but I'm finding you often rely too heavily on quoting sections from books. Often you quote many paragraphs from books when really it should be written from an encyclopedic point of view in our own words or reworded and then using citations. For example Samding Monastery. Really that should be written in your own words as an encyclopedic description, keeping to the main points!! The Bald One White cat 21:59, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
OK great. Take care of yourself my friend and have a great New Year!! Incidentally I had a book on the history of Nepal, haven't had the chance to look at it yet. Looks a difficult read but might contain something useful. The Bald One White cat 12:19, 29 December 2008 (UTC) Hello great man John. How are you? I've created a few new articles from the historical Amdo area (and created Category:Amdo, much of which of course falls within Qinghai, and I have noticed a huge number of articles missing from the autonomous areas that used to be part of Tibet. I've started Gongchen Monastery, and Longwu Temple, perhaps you have something on them. BTW an article I created, Uliger is up for deletion. I wondered if you had anything on it in your books seems as some of the tales also concern Tibet and Central Asia. I'm literally freezing as I type at this moment, its -2 celsius here today and I feel like I'm in a freezer or being cryogenically frozen! Funnily enough it is the coldest day of the year, being the last! The Bald One White cat 13:54, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
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