User talk:Jameslwoodward/Archive 1

Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Welcome!

Hello Jameslwoodward, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome!  Dolphin51 (talk) 12:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

The nature of a welcome

Hi Jim! Thanks for your enquiry on my User talk page. The background to my Welcome message above is as follows. On 25 January I was doing some work in Wikipedia on True airspeed, Knots and Nautical mile. When I looked at the history page for Nautical mile I immediately saw your 25 December entry as the only one by a User with a red link to a (non-existent) Talk page. This indicated no-one had initiated your Talk page and therefore you had not yet been welcomed to Wikipedia. I checked your edit count and saw that you had made 51 edits, so a welcome was long overdue. In my experience, most new Users are welcomed after they have made fewer than a dozen edits.

Within the Wikipedia community there is a large number of Users who have formed a welcoming committee. They have volunteered to welcome new users and others. They do this by posting a message with links to various introductory pages. You can see their names on WP:Welcoming committee. My username is not on the list, but I understand and support the objectives of the welcoming committee.

In Wikipedia, new Users do not automatically receive a machine-generated welcome. Welcome messages come from individuals so they are personal and genuine. They contain an offer of personal assistance if such assistance is ever desired. I have welcomed many new Users, and a few of them have subsequently contacted me with questions, and I have been pleased to assist. If you check the Talk page of a few other Users you will see that most of them, perhaps all of them, have been welcomed early in their career with a brief message similar to the one I sent you.

I have not examined in detail any of your edits so I have no idea about the quality or validity of any of your edits. My welcome message was intended as nothing more than a welcome. You should not interpret it as criticism or condescension. If the standard Welcome message offends you, you are at liberty to delete it. Happy sailing! Dolphin51 (talk) 23:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi again Jim. Thanks for your suggested improvements to my Welcome! message. I have adopted most of your suggestions and used the new template a couple of times. You can see them at User talk:ValerieAustin and User talk:Bl00513. The latter has already contacted me with a request, and he and I have traded a little information. The system works. Best regards. Dolphin51 (talk) 02:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Adams-Magoun House

Hi, i noticed your edit to correct latitude-longitude coordinates for Adams-Magoun House, at least the ones in the National Register of Historic Places listings in Somerville, Massachusetts list-article.

I wonder, could you possibly explain your reasoning and what you did, at Talk:Adams-Magoun House? It would be helpful for others, later, to have some record, i think. I do assume you have specific knowledge and that your correction is helpful.

I haven't browsed in your contributions yet, so don't know if you've addressed other National Register properties. It would be great if you could add to other ones as well. Cheers, doncram (talk) 15:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I actually just further noticed your making a correction of street address for a NRHP place within National Register of Historic Places listings in Lake County, Illinois. That address and others were sourced originally from the National Register's database, NRIS. For this, I assume also your correction is good. But, could you please consider making a note at wp:NRIS info issues. I and others who work on National Register properties keep track centrally of errors or other issues in the National Register database, NRIS, there, so we can report them to the National Register. We do want the wikipedia information to be correct, but we want further to get their database corrected in part so other editors, later, won't "correct" our corrections back to the incorrect info, based on the National Register again. P:)
Also, you'd be very welcome to join Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places or to post any questions or comments at its Talk page, shortcut wt:NRHP. doncram (talk) 15:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your addition at wp:NRIS info issues and for following up at my Talk page. I replied to several of your specific comments there. Also, i just now started the Lloyd Lewis House article as a stub, to implement the correct street name information that you provided. Thanks! doncram (talk) 19:12, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
I've not read everything written between you and Doncram, so forgive me if I'm telling you something you already know — a large number of NRHP sites have somewhat wrong coordinates. The Massachusetts Bay house isn't the only egregiously wrong one; for example, there's a bridge somewhere in Massachusetts that had coordinates placing it on the Equator in the Pacific Ocean! It would be good if all of us had time to check the addresses against the provided coordinates; as long as you're doing that, you're helping us NRHP project members significantly. Thanks! Nyttend (talk) 23:20, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Assuming that I understand you rightly, I'd agree with using Google, since the main point of giving coordinates is to allow the user to find sites with online mapping programs. In cases where no address was given, it would be original research to add a location (how are we supposed to know that it's the right spot on the map?), but if there are locations given in reliable sources, I think that it's only reasonable to change those slightly in order to accommodate the map, or change them bigtime if the address is problematic, such as putting houses in Massachusetts Bay. Nyttend (talk) 11:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
By the way, I believe that there might be a better website than earthtools, depending on what you're looking for. I use http://pagesperso-orange.fr/universimmedia/geo/loc.htm, which has a type-in-the-address feature that runs just like Google's does. Unless you know how to use EarthTools much better than I do, you'll find it much more difficult than the pagesperso-orange.fr website, which is quite simple. Conversely, until I looked at EarthTools just now, the only thing at all related to Google Maps that I'd seen with contours was USGS topographical maps, which can be viewed via Google if you use the GNIS servers. Still, I don't expect to start using EarthTools. Forgive me if I'm piling on advice :-) but I always go with the coordinates that fit the satellite view, since the roads on Map view often don't overlay the roads on Satellite view very well, and I know that I can be more specific on Satellite. Nyttend (talk) 11:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Curious, what do you mean by "Google Maps has NRHP places in its database"? I'd like to see this :-) Nyttend (talk) 13:42, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Ahh, now I see; thanks. I thought you meant that it had little markers for all NRHP listings, not just the ones with articles. Yes, it takes a little while; I wrote Dunns Pond Mound eleven days ago, but it's not on yet. Nyttend (talk) 14:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)In case you're not aware of it, the NPS publishes Google Earth overlays with NRHP sites. You can download these overlays here. They are not completely up to date. The above web page says that the files are "current through the beginning of 2007, but I think they actually have sites listed through at least early 2008. I find it useful to apply the overlay that contains a the geographic area on which I'm working and to export the links from the Wikipedia page as KML and open that file in Google Earth. Then I can see how the locations in the NPS overlay match up with those in the KML export. Where there's not a good match for a given site, I try to find the location from the description in the NRIS database to confirm which (if either) set of coordinates is most accurate. Opening the KML export also allows me to identify any locations that fall outside the applicable geographic borders. I hope this helps. --sanfranman59 (talk) 16:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if designing a bot as you suggest on my talk page is possible or not. But I'm in no way an expert in that area. I'm not at all surprised that there are differences between the coordinates in the county/state list articles and those in an article about a specific site. The list articles have typically been initially generated by a nifty tool developed User:Elkman. Many of the infoboxes in NRHP-related articles have been generated by another Elkman tool. Where this is the case, the coordinates in the list articles should agree with those in the individual site article (unless, of course, someone has changed them in one place but not the other). For my part, I tend to focus much of my work on the list articles. I have not been in the habit of changing coordinates in articles about individual sites when I change them in one of the list articles, although that would be a good habit to get into. --sanfranman59 (talk) 21:35, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Nice work

No problem about the redirect. Nice additions to the lighthouse and NRHP articles. Swampyank (talk) 17:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Bishop and Clerks Light

From time to time - it's as my fancy strikes me, really. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 14:43, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Talkback

⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 21:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

List of lighthouses in Prince Edward Island

Me again...I've been drawing up lists like the above for each Canadian province. (Newfoundland's next, on deck). Might you be interested in helping to fill the redlinks, once they've been created? There's a lot of work to do to get coverage of Canadian lighthouses. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 14:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Mt. Desert is...you're kidding. *sigh* I knew lighthouse coverage here needed some work; I didn't realize how much. Anyhow, no worries - I won't be doing any substantial work to fill in the lists until I've completed them all, which should probably take a week. I'm using Russ Rowlett's list at http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/lighthouse - it's not perfect, but I've found it to be one of the best resources online for this type of work.
I'll have some time over lunch; maybe I'll help out with the Maine stubbing. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 16:06, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
I wasn't sure - I thought it best to leave it in for now. I know it's hardly an architectural masterpiece, but it is techincally accurate. If someone else wants to remove it, I won't lose any sleep. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 16:09, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Fair enough. I'll work on those Canadian lists, then. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 16:14, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Massachsetts template for lighthouses

FYI, the numbber of lights listed seems to be on the conservative side. Take a look here, list of lights Northern Massachusetts Lighthouse Digest, University of North Carolina. There is another list for Southern MaSsachusetts 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC) Stan

In Michigan (we have a lot more lights than you) we have gone the route of trying ot include all the lights. This becomes a 'to do' list. Even when they are all done, some may be redirects -- for example, one article on a pair of range lights, or various iterations of lights at the same location. Of course, there is nothing to say that is the right way . . . Best regards. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC) Stan

Maine lighthouses

Generally, good - two small things. First off, I added the architecture category to each, mainly because I know people like that on building articles. Secondly, you can tag them with {{US-lighthouse-stub}}, as that exists. Other than that, they look great! --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 18:20, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Anytime. And you're a beginner? Couldn't prove it by me. :-) --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 18:27, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I've taken the liberty of adding condensed NRHP templates to the lighthouse articles (and declined the misguided deletion tagging). Feel free to rearrange. Thanks for the good work! Acroterion (talk) 23:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Take a look at Burnt Coat Harbor Light; I've incorporated the NRIS ref to back up the NRHP status and the nomination number, which I like better than the infobox. Acroterion (talk) 23:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
The best way to get NRIS information is to use Elkman (talk · contribs)'s NRHP infobox generator, which is available at [1]. It will give formatted, referenced output for infoboxes, but you can extract what you want to use if you're just looking for basic data and references. It will also give you some, but not necessarily all, of the related wikiproject templates for the talk page. It is sensitive to the NRIS syntax, so sometimes personal names have to be reversed. Acroterion (talk) 11:50, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Take a look at Tenants Harbor Light, which suggests some useful sources and formats. FYI, the lighthouse infobox you are using is obsolescent. Should have USCG and ARLHS numbers Here is the current Lighthouse template. You can also find the U.S. Coast Guard pictures on line, and they can be uploaded to commons and inserted into the articles. Berrean Hunter did that. Keep up the good work. Happy editing. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:22, 8 August 2009 (UTC) Stan I use Firefox, and have not experienced problems with the Lighthouse infobox. Ordinarily open fields don't show. If you take a look at the lighthouse resource page at the Great Lakes Lightkeepers Association link in Tenants Harbor Light you'll find some links and books specifically about Canadian lights. Most of the Michigan lighthouse articles have a more or less generic (I tried to include specific sources about specific lights) list of information, that is applicable to lighthouses of the Great Lakes, including Canadian lights. If you look up the lights in Toronto, Ontario I put in some Canadian sources. Your doing yeoman's work, so keep it up. Great start. As to expecting help on articles (I've made major contributions to the Michigan lighthouses, and a lot of work in Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Ohio, and smaller contributions around the sea coasts. Thus far I've not seen much from many editors to help. However, I've had a few that have been very helpful when asked (particularly with a specific task) and suggest that might be a way to go. If you look at some of the Michigan lighthouse articles that I've worked on a lot Sturgeon Point Light, White Shoal Light, Waugoshance Light, Round Island Light, Harbor Beach Light, Seul Choix Light, Huron Lightship for example, you will find a lot of things like wiki links that are common and would be useful to include in almost any article, including the information in the infoboxes. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 12:49, 9 August 2009 (UTC) Stan

To give scale to an NHRP designation, take a look [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Shoal_Light_(Michigan) here) which Acroterion raised as "Start". Since I don't know much about the NHRP criteria (as I've said before), I have no comment. I would hope it would rate better in the Lighthouse project. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC) Stan

A good source

Here is a wonderful article that might be of use. I used it in the article I created on Spectacle Reef Light.[1] I am sure it has a lot of your lights. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:35, 9 August 2009 (UTC) Stan

Another wonderful source

Working Man's Barnstar

The Working Man's Barnstar
Greetings, Jameslwoodward. In recognition of your tireless devotion and attention to detail, this award as Keeper of the Light of Maine is conferred. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 13:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Notes

  1. ^ Putnam, George R. (1913). "Beacons of the Seas: Lighting the Coasts of the United States". National Geographic Magazine. XXIV (1): 19. Retrieved June 10, 2009. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

templates

Sorry, I didn't realize that you aren't a member of WP:LIGHTHOUSES and wouldn't have seen my post there. If no one protests their use here then we should be able to go ahead with it.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:38, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Some good advice on rating and writing lighthouse articles from NHRP evaluator

User talk:Acroterion take a look. This gives us a 'to do' list, or at least a blueprint to think about. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC) Stan

Re: Monhegan Light Coords

I used the {{Infobox Lighthouse}} coordinates because the {{Infobox nrhp}} coordinates were obviously invalid, having 60 seconds in the longitude. I agree that three decimal places is excessive, but I left it to someone else (such as yourself) to decide how much rounding is appropriate. I'm not sure what you mean by "harmonize at the template level" but if it makes maintenance easier without impacting users, I'm probably for it.

Having coordinates appear in the title is not only convenient for users, but according to the {{Coord}} documentation it's necessary in order to ensure that the coordinates are parsed correctly from raw Wikipedia database dumps. I don't think you'll find any consensus to make Wikipedia pages as simple as possible; it's an intriguing idea, though. --Stepheng3 (talk) 05:27, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Maine Lighthouse Resource Template

A suggestion. You might want to include

He is a unique resource, rather like Terry Pepper, Seeing the Light in the Western Great Lakes. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC) Stan

DYK for Fiddler's Reach Fog Signal

Updated DYK query On September 4, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Fiddler's Reach Fog Signal, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

— Jake Wartenberg 17:14, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Re: Kennebec River Lights

I usually set stub tags apart with an extra space to make them more visible. Some of the stub tags with bland graphics blend into the article body; they're temporary, and it's to call attention to the fact that the article is still in need of work. When the article is no longer stub class, the tags will be removed, anyway. It's just a personal preference.
I'm not familiar with the Elkman tool, so I can't comment on that. It just looked odd that some of the infoboxes refer to U.S. Army Corps of Engineers in title case and COAST GUARD in uppercase and without reference to country of authority. Whenever I see inconsistencies in orthography, I try to correct them. Also, since the English version of Wikipedia is used throughout the English-speaking world, I never assume that the reader is from the United States — most countries that aren't landlocked have some sort of Coast Guard. —QuicksilverT @ 00:02, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

List numbers

Very well; I don't understand Excel sufficiently, so I wouldn't do it for fear of making an error and not noticing it. I copy the complete coding into Notepad and order it to change the numbers; for example, changing all instances of "4</small>" to "5q</small>" (the "q" is so that when I order it to change 5 to 6, it doesn't change what was once "4</small>" to "6</small>"; I make sure to remove it before posting the completed version :-). Ten quick find-and-replace commands later, and it's 90% done; I have to go to the former "9</small"s to change the number in the tens column, or the list will have errors such as "37...38...39...30...41...". It's quite fast; I completed the Boston list almost as quickly as I typed this paragraph. Nyttend (talk) 12:40, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. A toss up, I think between the two methods. Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 12:42, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Lighthouse photos

Glad the Cape Cod Highland Light photo was of some use, unfortunately, they were sort of snapshots when I was down on the Cape, but now I know I will bear it in mind if I see a lighthouse on my travels. The only other I have is of Marblehead Light (Massachusetts) which I used when I created the page on it but has since been replaced by a better photo. I will also bear in mind your comment on categories for the future. Take care phil aka Geotek (talk) 13:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

NRHP listing info

My thoughts: About the stable and the pavillion, and in general, I think you really need to collect the NRHP documents to know what you are looking at, and sorting out which is what. Unfortunately AFAIK the Masachusetts NRHP documents are not available on-line. Perhaps you should cultivate a contact with the MA state historical preservation office, towards finding some quicker access (is there a Boston location where you could just go in and get copies in person?), but you should also pursue the somewhat slow process of getting free copies of the NRHP applications from the national office, obtained by email request to nr_reference (at) nps.gov.

In New York State, where NRHP documents are in fact available online, I've gone NRHPing myself in both ways, visiting to take pics with or without having consulted NRHP documents already. Sometimes i am more curious just to see what is on a given site, first, and I find it boring to read some NRHP documents without having personally visited a place, or it is inconvenient to collect the documents first, so I visit first and get the documents later. Sometimes i learn afterwards that I should have paid attention to some feature when I visited, but hey.

Offhand, Refreshment Pavillion is rather generic, and/or it seems a bit grandiose to claim that as a name for just that one place, yes? I think perhaps it should be moved to add (City, State) to its article name already.

About Brookwood Farm, since it apparently is in both Milton and in Norfolk County separate from Milton, it should be listed in both NRHP lists. Note how the List of RHPs in MA state-wide list allows for such duplications, of districts or properties that appear in more than one component list. Just go ahead and add it. You should certainly verify by collecting its NHRP documents, that there is not merely a portion of the property in just one of those jurisdictions which is NRHP-listed. I'm glad you are finding the NRHPing sport enjoyable, and hope you will keep up the good work! doncram (talk) 14:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Further, since you know that Old Barn is entirely in Canton, you should indeed move it from National Register of Historic Places listings in Milton, Massachusetts to National Register of Historic Places listings in Norfolk County, Massachusetts. Since there is apparently an actual error in the NRIS database for this one's location, then, could you please add a note to wp:NRIS info issues? That way we'll have a central record of the change, and also eventually get it fixed in the NRIS database, avoiding future confusion. Also I think this one should be renamed to Old Barn (Canton, Massachusetts), too. Thanks! doncram (talk) 15:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I didn't understand you had covered both of them at wp:NRIS info issues, but see that you had. I just further clarified there. Thanks!
About the name changes, it is not a priority as there are no similarly named wikipedia articles, so it is not immediately needed for disambiguation. But if moved, I think it should be to Old Barn (Canton, Massachusetts) rather than "Old Barn, Canton, Massachusetts" and to Refreshment Pavillion (Town, State) rather than "Refreshment Pavillion, Town, State". That would be consistent with how most disambiguating in names of NRHP places has been done in the U.S., i.e. in Name (Town, State) format, which keeps the Name separated from the disambiguating Town, State part, which is not itself part of the Name. That isn't a hard and fast wikipedia policy, that it has to be done that way, and I notice in the U.K. that buildings articles are often named using Name, Town or Name, Shire. In the U.S. to do it as Name (City, State) is somewhat different. There has not been a big reconciling policy discussion about it all. But I have done more NRHP-related disambiguation than anyone else, and in the process encountered lots of non-NRHP theatres, stations, other places, too. And when I come across a U.S. item in Name, City or Name, City, State or Name (City) or Name (State) format I have usually moved it to Name (City, State) format, and I think in general that has been accepted. I don't want to argue with anyone about any one or two article names though. Anyhow, in the NRHP list-articles, what should be displayed is just the NRHP name, e.g. Old Barn, with the connection to the actual name being hidden by a redirect and/or by pipelinking to the actual article name. doncram (talk) 00:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
You are being very proper and polite and all, researching what the protocol is. :) It woulda been fine by me if you had just fixed my mistaken Old Mill to Old Barn, what i obviously meant. We're obviously cooperating to get the right statement of problem, not in an argument, and some informality in favor of efficiency is fine, and it would not be confusing to any others watching either. You could also have used strikeout in an inserted signed correction, e.g., as in "Old Mill Old Barn (what you meant, right? -- jameslwoodward)". Fixed by me now, anyhow. Thanks! doncram (talk) 10:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

VRB-25

Here is a nice article on it, which might be of some use. Terry Pepper, Seeing the Light VRB 25. Nice job on your article, which was needed. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:49, 9 September 2009 (UTC) Stan

Seul Choix Light

Take a close look. Since your expertise is showing, maybe you have a coupler of additions. Happy editing. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:18, 10 September 2009 (UTC) Stan

Thanks. I am "an old hand" but I have been lazy about some of the details. I've been doing so many edits that I have succumbed to 'taking the path of least resistance.' The Elkman NHRP box is really neat, however. I initially tried to do the Michigan lighthouses, and then got sucked in to doing (at least at a base level) the rest of the Great Lakes. Unlike you, I hvae created very few articles, but have only tried to make the existing ones better. Mainly I put in the External links, which are the foundation for writing a better article. I am working on puttting them into footnotes, as there has been criticism from some of the techies that there are "too many external links" and 'not in accord with Wiki guidelines.' This remnds me of the Emperor in Amadeus saying, "The problem, Herr Mozart is that there are too many notes." So I'm trying ot build these articles up, but it is a massive job. Not to mention that we have added to the Michigan list a bunch of lights that nobody every missed or thought about, so the job only gets bigger. I really do appreciate your helping hand, and I will try to 'learn to fish' not just eat the fish. I've actually got to go back to real life and earn a living for a while. Happy editing. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 13:04, 11 September 2009 (UTC) Stan
P.S., there is a redundant NYHP template on the bottom, and I can't figure out why or how to get rid of it. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 13:09, 11 September 2009 (UTC) Stan
James, I was looking in the NHRP boxtht I generated, not in the "new" lighthouse infobox template. Thus I could not find "embed=Yes". What we ahve heard is a failure to communicate." Cool Hand Luke.
Reminds me of a haiku penned by my uncle.

Tiny little moth, seeking warmth by candle light. Damned idio. -- William Lomaka

I did put in enbed in Round Island Light (Michigan) and Old Mackinac Point Light, but I can't say I see much difference. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC) Stan O've got it. Thanks for :your example, which I now understand (and will plagiarize). As I have often said, "plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery." I knew I'd won the case when the opinion was my brief. Matter of Del Rio, 400 Mich. 665. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:18, 11 September 2009 (UTC) Stan

That would be "embed+yes} not 'enbed=yes' Old eyes. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:32, 16 September 2009 (UTC) Stawn