Going to Archive, Push to a Resolution of the Name Issue
Dear Haldrik: In attempt to get things back on track, if it's OK with you, I'm going to archive the whole lot, propose we focus on the text of the article and not on debate of the facts and try to move us on. It is clear to me that Jesus = Joshua = Y'Shua, but no amount of debating is going to change minds. I will try to list the options, then list reasons why or why not we should do one or the other and move us to discuss which will work. I'm going to ask everyone not to get into the debate over the name itself again. Does this work for you? Bob --CTSWyneken14:27, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'll lay off archiving the name discussion, but I think the debate over the name is not getting anywhere. You've established that scholars see it that way and no amount of arguing is going to change the others. We'll simply go around in circles, something I have little patience for anymore. Let's lay the issue on the table and let it rest. We should get to what we want the paragraph to look like. I'd appreciate it if you would simply say "Scholars believe that Jesus = Y'hoshua" (see documentation above)" and explain why it must be in the first few words of the article and not later on in the article or in the Names and Titles of Jesus article. Others will make their points and we'll see where it comes out. Personally, I think referents to forms in other languages are confusing to a reader who comes to an encyclopedia without knowledge of that language. I'd prefer to save it for later.
Anyway, it's time this was over so I can get back to documenting, which this debate has delayed. (again) My students are calling... Later. Bob --CTSWyneken15:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wow I'm learning a lot about stuff I always considered "squiggles" - sorry!. It looks like there is consensus to add your information (makes sense to me) so now it's just a matter of where. A short mention in Jesus is probably all that is needed as it is an "overview" article but this does look like the sort of elaboration that should be in Historical Jesus. If it's not there already I would appreciate you adding it as it would be a shame to not have this very valid information somewhere. SophiaTalkTCF12:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Explanation
Hi, Haldrik,
The biggest "contributor" to my stress level actually has nothing to do with Wikipedia--it's my physical health (I've got something that acts like rheumatoid arthritis, and today's a pretty bad day). So it's probably just the best thing to do to walk away for a while so I don't allow my own bad temper to interfere with the effort.
Do keep up the good fight, as it were ... but it would make it easier if you acknowledge other opinions, even if you disagree with them. Justin Eiler16:41, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I know you are interested in christianity, and I recently started a new wiki over at wikicities which is on the subject of christianity. [1] is the site.
The goal is to have a knowledgebase on christianity from a distinctly "C(hristian)POV" rather than the NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nsandwich (talk • contribs)
I know you are busy but I am actively seeking new sysops/admins to help me build this site up, and I would be positively thrilled if you could contribute in any capacity whatsoever.
Hi, my main interest is Roman Period Israeli archeology. Regarding Jesus, my interest is the reconstructing his ancient context. I am busy, but if there is something specific you would like me to contribute to, let me know, and I'll see what I can. --Haldrik23:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I for one certainly appreciate "reconstructing his ancient context." Who exactly were the Pharisees, Saducees, et al? For that matter, who was Pontius Pilate? Grigory Deepdelver AKA Arch O. LaTalkTCF19:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No matter how frustrated you get (and I do empathise) it is never helpful to make personal comments about another editor. If you have cooled off a bit it might be a good idea to remove your last post. Pansy Brandybuck AKA SophiaTalkTCF21:54, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your advice. I think about this dilemma all the time, about when to be patient versus when to be candid. You are probably right. And I did need to hear it again. --Haldrik21:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Picture of 'Codex of Aleppo'
Dear Haldrik, the image you contributed to the community is badly needed to illustrate the equivalent article in the German Wikipedia as well, but I need to be sure that it is under the well-known GNU license. Is it? I did not find any assertion to that, only that it is in the public domain under US law - and that's not enough. --Traugott22:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Traugott, correct, this 2-D image of a public domain artwork also falls under the public domain according to US law. If you need a "stronger" copyright usage, you may feel more comfortable to contact the website for special written permission: http://www.aleppocodex.org. The site address can also be found in image description. Haldrik23:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I see you are actively editing Palestine. I encourage you to add sources/references to your edits, as these have been lacking in this article previously. Having references would be very helpful here. On another note, please be careful to be as neutral as possible, as this article as it stands right now is about a geographic area, and we have traditionally tried not to insinuate to much politicization in the text by making sure it is not written from the specific perspective of one party or another. Thanks much Ramallite(talk)03:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude with my reversions but you must be very careful to add sources at the same time that you add any new passages. Although I understand that you are an expert in the area and you are probably used to being able to add such information based on your own observations, here on wikipedia we are only permitted to add something that has already been published in a reputable and reliable source. Also I would appreciate it if you made large changes to the article over the course of many edits, Thank you.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk23:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The whole article lacks sufficient citations! I'll do what I can to start substantiating the info about the ancient periods. --Haldrik23:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As far as politics goes: Terminology referring to "Israel" seems stronger and more relevant during the Roman Period and earlier. Terminology refering to "Palestine" seems stronger and more relevant during the Byzantine Period and later. During the Modern Period, the State of Israel and the Palestinian Territories make these terminologies complex and highly charged. --Haldrik23:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't just break it up between the Roman periods and the Byzantine periods (ironic since there is also some sensitivity regarding those names and when those periods branch) since the province was only named Palestina after the Jewish Revolt in the first century AD, and it was only named that so that the name of the Jews' ancient enemy, the philistines, (who had stopped existing as a people centuries before) would be invoked.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk00:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As far as formal names by government administrations, the Romans only referred to Judea (not including Samaria) as Syria Palaestina. The Byzantines were the first ones to officially use the name Palaestina to refer to entire region (including Judea, Samaria, Galilee, Golan, and so on), corresponding to the modern geographic term "Palestine". Thus, "Palestine" in this wider sense is a Byzantine adaptation (at least officially). --Haldrik00:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. The article can emphasize the Roman Period corresponds to the ethnic cleansing of Judea, and the Byzantine Period to the first (official) use of Palestine as a wider geographic term. --Haldrik21:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Languages
Hi There! Can you translate my name in what language you know please, and then post it Here. I would be very grateful if you do (if you know another language apart from English and the ones on my userpage please feel free to post it on) P.S. all th translations are in alpahbetical order so when you add one please put it in alpahbetical order according to the language. Can you update the count when you add one and respond on my talk page. Thanks!!! Abdullah Geelah14:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"LOL! Each time I see your name, I think "R Cola"." Well, I drink a lot of RC Cola...
It's just a triply mutated version of my given name, Archie. In third grade, when we were learning cursive handwriting, the loop of the e crossed the bar of the i, and a classmate read it as "Archo." This was my nickname for many years. In high school, for some reason, a female classmate changed it to Archola, and the nickname stuck. I started writing it out like a full name, Arch O. La, after I had been on Wikipedia for a few months.
Hi, Arch. Fun. Haldrik is a totally made-up name. I used it as a computer handle and for the sake of consistency I'm stuck with it now. ;) The name used to be unique, but I fear, others have adopted it for themselves. --Haldrik11:45, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly, as you are doing in Wikipedia:Hebrew. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert a single page more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you.
There are number of technical issues that I'm still trying to familiarize with and sorting out. Your contributions and time are appreciated, and there is at least an attempt to integrate your comments. --Haldrik10:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"It is not generally allowed to put links to 'wikipedia:' (= project) namespace pages in wikipedia ARTICLES."
The above policy seems problematic. How can (spontaneous) Wikipedia editors use a standard format if they are unaware of it? I myself have been editing Wikipedia for about a year now and was unawre the Wikipedia:Naming convention even existed. I came across it by accident while Googling the globe a few days ago about another topic. Achieving a standard for Hebrew transcription is notoriously difficult. It requires the consensus and participation (and awareness) of all editors who refer to Hebrew. --Haldrik11:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, please keep in mind that naming conventions exist for the purpose of creating a standard on transliteration, not trascription. Please consider that before suggesting, for example, that Het should be kh, which is wrong according to every previous transliteration method (academic and otherwise). Thanks, Ynhockey(Talk)18:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Every previous transcription? What about Chet? Chaim, Chanukkah, etc. "Kh" which is non-English for a non-English sound is preferable to "ch" which already represents an English sound. --Haldrik19:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
For persons interested in using a Heb./Eng. dictionary it is necessary to know the Hebrew cyphers/letters/Hieroglyphs/Sacred glyphs/Hieroglyphs(the little marks that are commonly rendered into words) One of the ABCs is the obvious choice for US. A for Aleph and B for Baht are obvious. There is some choices to be made for instance with Hhayt (with cypher value 8.) If US don't adopt a convention US'll have things like the plethora of "spells" for QLBH(Kabbalah)on WP. For years I used Hh and then saw that C was avaliable for the 8th symbol/Hieroglyph.
Focussing on sounds in languages and not the written non-ambiguity of the writing in Torah is to be hypnotised by "leavened bread." Bread with air--vowels in it. Basic Torah feeds thru the eyes. It is un-aired, unleavened. The stories, garments wrapped about Torah needed many "translations" of the same unleavened formula of Hieroglyphs so vowelling was added.
If one is not motivated to make sounds of which others approve, any consistent mark will bring the symbol to mind. Can anyone provide some verification that "Hebrew," a spoken language, existed before the Diaspora?Johnshoemaker (talk) 04:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Transliteration of Greek
Hi, you changed some of the transliterations for modern Greek on Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Greek). The old ones, which correspond to the UN/ELOT system, were chosen by consensus, no need to change that. Besides, I don't think Koine Greek is modern, that's meant to be 21st century Greek, as it is spoken today. I'm not sure where to place your Koine Greek addition, do you think it belongs in a naming convention? Same for the IPA, that's already covered by the Greek alphabet article. I'm reverting the transliteration changes, Koine and IPA should be discussed. Markussep09:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe place the tables in the following order: Modern, Byzantine, Koine, Classic. Koine is necessary. Many ancient documents (including the New Testament) are in Koine, which is distinct from both Modern and Classical. The Koine table may need to distinguish between the "official" Attic dialect and Alexandrian/Judean dialect. Byzantine is so close to Modern, perhaps it isnt necessary. --Haldrik04:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if this information is in the right place here, it's a naming convention. There is an article Koine Greek. Can you give me an example of an article name that would require a transliteration different from the one proposed for ancient Greek? Markussep20:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
can or can't? I guess most persons and places from the Hellenistic Period have traditional names in English (at least all bible-related names), so please give some examples of articles that would benefit from this part of the naming convention. I'm not talking about transliteration of texts in koine Greek (like in the koine Greek article), that should be covered by the Transliteration of Greek to the Latin alphabet article. Markussep11:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
On reflection, everything Greek from Alexander the Great and later, should use Modern Greek as the standard for naming conventions. --Haldrik00:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Your knowledge over the issue of ancestries is very impressive. Maybe if you have time & will, you can re-edit the section of ancestry in the above article, as it bascially says cannanites are paelstinians and so on. Amoruso08:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Amoruso, stop spreading misinformation! You will not teach Palestinians who they are, what is their heritage, and what is their history.Almaqdisi19:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If the "Caananites" here are those mentioned in the OT, the "Academy" will first have to reveal a source for the existence of these people that is more verifiable, say one prior to 500BCE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnshoemaker (talk • contribs) 04:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In your edit to remove vandalism on the Joshua article you reverted not just the vandalism but also a 'disputed' tag which had just been replaced by user Derex after I'd removed it. Do you think then, as I do, that this tag is unnecessary? I'm afraid Derex is getting a bit defensive about it so I'd be glad of another opinion on my side. I was just going to discuss on the talk page though, rather than getting into a revert war.--Spondoolicks22:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the "{{prod}}" template to the article Michael Laitman, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but I don't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and I've explained why in the deletion notice (see also Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not and Wikipedia:Notability). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, or, if you disagree, discuss the issues raised at Talk:Michael Laitman. If you remove the {{dated prod}} template, the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. IZAK04:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with the above. Rather, Laitman is an author of several books and a notable commentator on that subject matter, and mentioned by colleagues. --Haldrik05:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please tell me who it is that controls the concept of Kabbalah. I'd love to read his list of "approved" kabbalists who no one else is allowed to disagree with. ;) Just because you or I may disagree with Laitman doesnt make him un-notable. Daniel Matt is a notable scholar of Kabbalah, and he recognizes Laitman as a Kabbalist, at least in some sense. If published occultists can be called Hermetic "kabbalists", I don't see how it's possible to argue that Laitman cant be called a "kabbalist". It's better just to mention what notable critics say about Laitman in the article about him. --Haldrik05:23, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Who controls the "concept" of anything? Answer: The true experts and not the quacks. For example, who controls the "true concept" of medicine? Easy answer: recognized medical doctors and real scientists and not old wives in kitchens selling their old wives' tales and formulas to the masses who don't know better. So what is needed then is an article about what he is not and not about what he claims to be. There are no "lists" of Kabbalists because true Kabbalists do not advertise themselves on the Internet - that much is known, they must first be recognized and accepted by the true sages of Judaism who are learned in Kabbalah themslves and none of those have come forward to say anything about Laitman or his self-aggrandizing ilk. Most times the true Kabbalists of Judaism are only known centuries after their death, and Laitman is still around trying to make a buck from his books. Suggestion: don't call it "Kabbalah" in association with Laitman et al, rather say it's something like "Michael Laitman's personal homegrown theories about spiritual concepts" or "What Michael Laitman imagines about things" or something like that. But the second that the word "Kabbalah" is used it triggers the alarm bells in the eyes and ears of people who know what Kabbalah means within normative Judaism. IZAK05:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Self-aggrandizing". I understand the criticism. Nevertheless: "recognized and accepted by the true sages of Judaism", and exactly who might these be? As if Jewish scholars and hasidim agree on which thinkers alive today are the "true sages"! --Haldrik05:54, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Frot AfD
You submitted an AfD for two articles together, Goy and Frot. AfD requires sperate entries for each article as the articles have different subject matter. I recognize from your entry that you essentially consider them similar enough to put them together. I think it is likely that others would not agree. Anyway, AfD requires one entry per article.
My apologies for stepping on your toes. Please submit a sperate entry for Frot if you think it is appropriate. Regards to you, Atom10:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dont worry. If there's not enough published on the topic for an article now, there will be soon enough. Also, dont forget to use your own User page to compile information. When it starts to shape up, you can move it into a new article then. :) --Haldrik23:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But I'm in a worry! :)
First of all it's funny difficulty to show the obvious fact that White colour is White and I see critique of the article presentation FORM, but do not see any argument concerning CONTENTS of the topic.
Hi, I thought you may be interested in joining WikiProject Sex. It's an exciting new WikiProject which I'm sure has huge potential, but there's a lot of work to be done. So if you feel that you're up to it, please join! Atlantis Hawk06:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Michael Laitman
Hi Haldrik, I created a stub for Ashpaa here in his user space. I told him I would ask for your help too. Since he's a new editor and English is not his first language he'll likely need our help to get it up to policy standards to get it to pass the undeletion review process. I don't have alot of time now but I plan to edit as I can. Would you mind helping out there? --MPerel ( talk | contrib)18:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Loremaster and I would appreciate it if you would look over the Ebionites article and provide suggestions to get it ready for nomination as a featured article. We recently finished incorporating the suggestions of Slrubenstein from peer review. Slrub suggested you would be a good person to work with to further improve the article and get a diverse perspective. Ovadyah11:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ebionites article passed GA. We are having a 2nd round of peer review to get it ready for FA nomination. Your perspective on changes needed to make it FA quality would be appreciated. Ovadyah16:15, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Non-free use disputed for Image:Jesus (Flusser).jpg
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The word Norse means "Scandinavian" (or even specifically "Norwegian"). Old Norse, i.e. Old Scandinavian/Norwegian, is simply a conventional name for the Viking Age Scandinavian language.--Berig19:51, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
License tagging for Image:Sigurd Portal (Sigurd kills Regin).png
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Actually the four stags as the four cardinal points is common. For example, Finnur Magnússon refers to them as such, but specifies they refer to the four cardinal winds: the northerly wind, southerly, easterly and westerly. --Haldrik (talk) 18:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for adding sources. I must admit that I'm rather skeptical of them since they don't seem to be works by scholars of Norse mythology. I don't currently have grounds to contest them, though. Haukur (talk) 00:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah well, most of the current scholarly journals online charge money to view them. When I get home, Il try look for other citations. --Haldrik (talk) 01:21, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Magic trance, shamanic deathlike-trance:
Dvalinn ('the unconscious one', compare Old Swedish dvale 'unconscious'),
Dúrinn ('napper', dúrr 'nap'),
Gandalfr ('elf of the wand'),
Vindalfr ('elf of the wind')
Nár ('corpse')
Ginnarr ('awestriker', great one, ginn-heligr 'great holy', 'great'; ginna 'to deceive'; deceiver, deluder, illusionist)
Finnr ('Finn', shaman)
Skáfiðr [= Skáfinnr] ('slanting Finn', elder shaman), [= Skáviðr] ('skew wood', slanting board?)
Frosti ('frost')
Haugspori ('footprinter of the grave', spor 'footprint')
Fjalarr (hider, deceiver)
Norðri ('northerly'), Suðri ('southerly'), Austri ('easterly'), Vestri ('westerly')
Knowledge:
Vitr ('knowledgeable one', 'sage one', compare 'Kvasir was so sage (vitr), that noone asked him their question which he could not solve')
Þekkr ('agreeable', pleasing; 'noticing', 'comprehending', astute, clever)
Ráðsviðr ('tree of advising', extraordinary counselor)
Nýráðr ('new advising', cunning)
Frægr ('famous one')
Lofarr (lof 'approval', 'permission', 'praise', praiser)
Magic Artisan:
Fili ('?', file?)
Kili ('?', wedge?)
Hepti ('haft' of sax-knife, 'hilt' of dirk, grip)
Hornbori ('carrier of the horn')
Eikinskjaldi ('oak shield')
Draupnir ('dripper', multiplier of gold)
Náli ('needle', bodkin, corpse)
Víli ('misery', toil, drudgery, servitude)
Warrior:
Þorinn ('daring one', courageous one)
Þráinn (yearning one)
Dolgþrasir ('tough-talker of hostility', dólg 'hostility', emnity, hate, strife, dólg, 'hostile', enemy, fiend, foe, þrasa 'to talk tough', to rage, to talk big)
Mjöðvitnir ('testimony of mead'; poet. wolf of mead)
Veigr ('drink'; 'pith', 'strength')
Miscellaneous:
Litr ('color', skin color, complexion)
Fundinn ('finding', found one)
Frár ('swift')
Glóinn ('glowing one')
Alþjófr ('thief of all')
Just wanted to let you know something I stated on the talk page of the Sexual intercourse article: "Came back to this section to state that I have now broadened the scope of the term sexual intercourse, which clarifies how it biologically and traditionally means coitus, but has broadened to include anal sex and oral sex (at times, anyway). However, sexual intercourse is still not widely defined as every type of sex, thus that is still made clear in the lead, with my pointing out outercourse. Anyway, the lead should now be satisfactory to all."
Image copyright problem with Image:Offset-square grid.jpg
Image Copyright problem
Thank you for uploading Image:Offset-square grid.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the image. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.
The offset-square image is my own work. I supplied a more helpful image with explicit copyright notification for public domain. --Haldrik (talk) 16:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This edit is problematic in a number of ways but it boils down to information that isn't backed up by sourcing provided. Quite clearly, Roca & Johnson say the opposite of what you claim. This sort of reckless academic dishonesty won't be tolerated. If it continues, you'll find yourself on a very short leash. Regards. — Ƶ§œš¹[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]20:52, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me butting in, but Ausoes, it appears that I'm not the only editor who disagrees with things you defend in the articles you contribute to, and who has noticed the personal attacks you are occasionally apt to make. In view of the extensive discussions you and I have had on and offline over the past 7 months, could it possibly be that your comment about reckless academic dishonesty might eventually be a case of the pot calling the kettle black? Perhaps if you both take a calmer view and look again at the texts you are citing you may be able to reach a more amicable compromise. After all, we are all only volunteers here, and anonymous to boot.--Kudpung (talk) 04:16, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that was my initial approach. As you can see here and here, where I revised the General American and English phonology articles, respectively, to incorporate information that speaks to some phonetic nuances of the strut vowel in that accent. More sourced information is welcome, too, since the articles are both quite sparse in that regard.
In response to your second question: no, I am not guilty of misleading citations. I stand by my assessment of Haldrik's attribution to Roca & Johnson and am willing to defend it if need be. — Ƶ§œš¹[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]05:07, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At the moment, the only linguistic research I can conveniently access, is what is available online, which is surprisingly poor because university journals tend to have draconian restrictions and prohibitive prices. Apparently, only other libraries are customers. The only exceptions to the rule are certain foreign universities who publish their online journals free for the sake of science and information sharing. Thank God for them. In any case, the citation I referred to cites the Harvard publication, that clearly notes how the strut vowel is almost always a central vowel except for a handful of specific local dialects, and is usually realized as open-mid or near-open. For British English it is always a near-open central vowel. That is the only point I make, and the reason for the citation. Haldrik (talk) 18:18, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Which Harvard publication are you talking about? I have access to a few linguistic journals through my local university, so I may be able to get ahold of something you'd like.
Keep in mind that there's a distinction between central and centralized. My understanding, based primarily on Roca & Johnson, is that few English dialects have a cardinal[ʌ], though the realization may be very close to it, which justifies using <ʌ>. It's a similar case with /u/. Most dialects have a centralized vowel, but some of them (such as Australian English) have a much more central vowel so that <ʉ> is a more phonetically accurate choice. — Ƶ§œš¹[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]18:53, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that is the point. American English NEVER has a cardinal [ʌ] phoneme. There isnt any justification for using it, except tradition. In fact, the American strut vowel usually isnt 'very' near /ʌ/. It is always more central and usually more open, and the IPA added more vowel letters that can now represent it more precisely, namely /ɜ/, albeit the American vowel is midrounded and more open. Even if it is slightly to the back, the American vowel is a central vowel, relative to the rest of the vowels. It is wrong to use the symbol for the unrounded back vowel <ʌ>. To say, Americans pronounce the midrounded putt in the exact same way as the rounded pot - except their lips change slightly - is highly confusing because these vowels are nowhere near each other! The vowels are way different. That is why linguists use the central <ɜ> symbol to describe the actual American sound. Admittedly, with regard to the relative American vowel system, the strut vowel seems to exist somewhere in the quadrant between ʌ, ɜ, ɐ, and ɑ. But it is certainly not like /ɔ/ pot and therefore NOT <ʌ>. Haldrik (talk) 19:36, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There was an editing conflict before I could finish. Here is the rest of the point. With regard to the citations that are available online, here is one in full. Tho I compared it to a number of different sources to verify the accuracy. It refers to British English but compares American English. The citation 'Harvcoltxt' refers to the various publications of 'Harvard Reference'.
"Before World War II, Received Pronunciation had phoneme IPA /ʌ/ as being phonetically close to a back vowel IPA [ʌ] ; this sound has since shifted forward towards IPA [ɐ] (a Near-open central vowel). In American English varieties, the typical phonetic realization (e.g. in Ohio or Texas English) of the phoneme IPA /ʌ/ is a central vowel that can be transcribed as IPA [ɜ] (open-mid central). Truly backed variants of IPA /ʌ/ that are phonetically IPA [ʌ] occur in Newfoundland English, Philadelphia English, some African-American Englishes, and (old-fashioned) white Southern English in coastal plain and Piedmont areas. [Harvcoltxt|Thomas|2001|p=27-28,112-115,121,134,174] Despite this, the symbol IPA <ʌ> is still commonly used to indicate this phoneme, even in the more common varieties with central variants IPA [ɐ] or IPA [ɜ] . This may be due to both tradition as well as the fact that some other dialects retain the older pronunciation. [Harvcoltxt|Roca|Johnson|1999|p=135]." [8]
The main point is, the only American dialects that actually use a *back* vowel is Newfoundland (!), plus certain local or ethnic communities, like the city of Philidalphia, certain Black Americans, and certain 'old fashioned' White Americans who live in Piedmont! Thats it. All other Americans use a CENTRAL VOWEL! The citation even refers to Roca & Johnson to explain why the back-vowel symbol <ʌ> continues to get used, even tho it is wrong.
"Despite [virtually all British and Americans use a central vowel for the strut vowel phoneme], the symbol IPA <ʌ> is still commonly used, even [for] the more common [dialects] with central [vowels], IPA [ɐ] or IPA [ɜ]. This may be due to tradition as well as the fact some dialects [still] retain the older pronunciation. Harvard Reference: Iggy Roca and Wyn Johnson, ''Course In Phonology'', 1999:135."
It should be noted, the IP Alphabet didnt even have symbols for the central vowels til relatively recently. Many English linguists still dont use one of these more accurate symbols because of the sacred cow of archaic scholarship or else reference to vestiges of the archaic pronunciation. Haldrik (talk) 20:07, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It says, most American English dialects 'typically' realize strut as [ɜ], and similarly, linguists often wrongly use the symbol <ʌ> even when transcribing the 'more common' American dialects that actually have a central vowel [ɜ]. Haldrik (talk) 21:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Look, we both agree the article needs better citations. If you currently have access to online library resources, please research the problem yourself and return with your findings. In short, your assumption the strut vowel really is a back vowel is wrong: it really is a central vowel [ɜ], and the use of the symbol <ʌ> is a sacred cow - wrong but inherited from historical linguistics. I challenge you to investigate the problem. Haldrik (talk) 21:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)I'm not making an assumption. Roca & Johnson say: "The last vowel we shall examine in this section occurs in words like hut, up or cuff in GA and in Scottish English. It resembles [ʌ]... The English vowel is, however, slightly advanced vis-à-vis its cardinal counterpart, hence [ʌ̟]..." (p. 185). On the next page, they say "Confusingly from a phonetic perspective, this RP sound [ɐ] is still usually transcribed with the symbol [ʌ], like its backer and higher GA and Scottish counterpart." (emphasis mine). According to these authors, it's central in RP and back (or advanced back) in GA.
First, it should be noted, in terms of the absolute values of the Bark scale, the American strut and the British strut are almost exactly the same. Thus in absolute terms, the American strut is almost exactly the same as British [ɐ]. It is only their relative positions visavis the other vowels of their respective vowel systems that create the illusion of being more or less open, or more or less back. (In absolute terms, the American vowel is only slightly to the back of British butter but slightly to the front of British fast.)
Re your citation, the main contrast between American and British strut refers to the American and British vowel systems. The British strut vowel cannot properly be called an 'open-mid' vowel because it is clearly a near-open vowel and is at the same level of openess (or 'lowness') as an other near-open vowel [ɑ]. Thus the open-mid <ʌ> symbol cannot be used, even tho British linguists continue to do so as a convention. The American situation is different. The American strut vowel cannot properly be called a 'back' vowel because it is nowhere near the position of [ɔ]. As you know, /ʌ̟/ = /ɜ/, and <ɜ> is the more accurate symbol to transcribe the actual sound of the General American dialect. Haldrik (talk) 22:08, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can't promise anything as far as research. I have some other projects that I'm already working on. Either way, it's just a minor phonetic note, so it's nothing to get worked up about. — Ƶ§œš¹[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]21:45, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please, do if you can. I tried hard to locate good info on the internet, and was shocked it was so lacking, despite the importance of this kind of information. Seriously, how many humans on this planet struggle to learn English? All of them need to know how to pronounce this vowel right. Haldrik (talk) 22:11, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With some humor, notice. You accused me saying, "Quite clearly, Roca & Johnson say the opposite of what you claim." The truth is, they say exactly what Im saying. I say the American strut vowel is a 'central vowel', [ɜ]. Meanwhile, Roca & Johnson say the vowel is '[ʌ̟]'. But remember, modified symbol [ʌ̟] = unmodified symbol [ɜ]. Haldrik (talk) 22:35, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As the Bark scale objectively shows, the vowel 'but' is fronted ('advanced') very far from the back vowel pot. The vowel but is in the center between bet and pot. Haldrik (talk) 23:07, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, it doesn't mean a central vowel when Roca & Johnson refer to an advanced back vowel. They place it on a vowel quadrilateral in a clearly different place than the central vowels. I'm not sure what will convince you — Ƶ§œš¹[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]00:06, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What would it take to convince me it is a back vowel? LOL! Roca and Johnson would have to stop calling it a 'fronted' ('advanced') back vowel, other linguists would have to stop describing it as a central vowel, and the Bark scale would have to stop showing objectively it is clearly a central vowel. Haldrik (talk) 00:16, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm asking you what would convince you that it's not central in GA. I've already provided a source that says that it's backer than a central vowel, but that doesn't seem like enough. I understand that you don't have access to resources, but you shouldn't then pretend like you have the answers. Your generalization is just plain false. Linguists don't typically describe it as a central vowel in GA. — Ƶ§œš¹[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]00:25, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You would have to prove, 'American English' doesnt include 'General American'. For example ...
[ɜ] as in "[bɜst] bust" is "the most common realization of the vowel transcribed as <ʌ> in American English."
The wiki article cites the linguists, Ladefoged as well as Johnson, to support this. Obviously, 'American English' includes General American. Yet *all* the common dialects of America also pronounce the phoneme as a central vowel, including Western, Urban Southern, Texas, and so on, which is why it refers to the 'American English' dialects, and not just the General American standard or 'neutral' dialect. American English includes General American and pronounces it as a central vowel. Haldrik (talk) 00:44, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Don't you know? Everybody speaks General American. :)
Heh. I was under the impression, you were one of the 'old fashioned white people who live in Piedmont' who actualy use a back vowel. Haldrik (talk) 01:10, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"I'll have to put them on my list of books to check out the next time I visit the library." I appreciate that. I will too but I expect not to be at the university til autumn. LOL! If you do that, itl pevent an edit war. Haldrik (talk) 00:59, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All right, post visit. I didn't find the Ladefoged book, but Thomas (2001) was available. Here's the relevant quote: "The most widespread variant of /ʌ/, as in cut, is one that appears on the midline of vowel plots. It is probably best described as [ɜ] because it is more central than back." (p. 27)
Unfortunately, we can't take from this quote--which refes to all American dialects Thomas covers--any definitive information about General American since there's no guarantee that GA is perfectly representative of all said dialects.
However, I think what Wells (1982) says of General American (p. 470) is important here: "Obviously, GenAm is not a single unified accent. But as a concept referring to non-eastern non-southern accents, the label has its uses." This strikes me as odd since that means that my California dialect (which is not marked by southern or eastern features) is part of GA.
Hmm. Actually, I care more about the location in the center more than the symbol itself, so that seems an ok solution. Heh, whatever goes there will require explanatory notes! Haldrik (talk) 02:45, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
First off, welcome back! From your edit history, it looks like you haven't been around a lot lately. I do want to make one friendly observation, though. It looks like you're making a lot of consecutive edits, tweaking typos and wording after you've submitted. If you use the preview feature instead, you can get things refined without risking someone seeing or trying to fix your incomplete masterpiece. It also makes edit summaries a lot easier for other editors to read. Compare: [9][10] (I do tend to let things slip a bit when it comes to my own userspace, but I hope nobody else is following or editing there.) Anyway, thanks for your contributions! —INTRIGUEBLUE(talk|contribs)21:56, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
:-) Il see what I can do.
A barnstar for you!
The Original Barnstar
Bonjour, Haldrik
i' m writing a book (160 pages, 300 pictures) in France about hemp agriculture…(alimentation, paper, textile, ropes, bio-dièsel, construction, isolation, médecine, religion, etc...)
Is it possible to illustrate it with the picture of :
Iyesus Kristos (Jesus Christ) according to the traditional iconography of the Ethiopian Church (17th-18th c. Ethiopia). Image from Black History by John R. Moore
Is this picture in the public domain ?
Or can i have your authorisation to use it…
Have you maybe an high résolution version ?
(i will write your name under this photo)
Thank you for your help… Jah-ova (talk) 14:41, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).
I was undoing drastic vandalism by an editor with history of POV vandalism - who did “move” without discussion and without consensus. I feared wikipedia.org content had been lost irrevocably, and was asking for help. Haldrik (talk) 02:35, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
I apologize if I accused you inappropriately. Your edit did not add any content, and just deleted my comment, therefore I thought it deliberate, and not an edit conflict. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:17, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Haldrik (talk·contribs)! I haven't e-met you before. I've been trying to see what kinds of edits you made to the Elf article and form my own view on how helpful they were, but it's quite hard because you don't provide summaries of the changes you make in the 'edit summary' box. I'd be grateful if you could do this for any future edits so we can work more effectively together. Thanks! Alarichall (talk) 15:15, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Alaric. I am glad to see you take an interest in the Elf article. I enjoy your serious contributions.
[I responded to you in your talk page but repeat the content here for the sake of completion.]
With regard the unfortunate situation, Bloodofox is a cyber bully with a history of harassment and abusive editing. Even here is massive deletions rather than line-by-line considerations evidences his nonacademic agenda and aggression. He works persistently to delete and censor scholarly information that he dislikes. I had a bad experience earlier when he succeeded in renaming an other article without consensus and in a way that destroyed its history and information. I was unfamiliar with the administration of wikipedia, and the admins didnt seem to understand how the old article was destroyed. Heh, meanwhile I was in a panic. Please, help undo any future POV damage by Bloodofox.
Anyway, I look forward to working with you and others to try make the information about the Elf solid and nuanced. It is an important and fascinating topic. Haldrik (talk) 01:16, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there Haldrik (talk·contribs)! I just noticed that back in January last year, you added some material to the etymology section of the elf entry:
Compare descriptions such as ‘swan white’ to describe the beauty of fair complexion. Norse cultural values view masculinity as an ideal of beauty, which the Alfr personifies. For example, the Norse Eddas similarly celebrate the male beauty of Baldr. Icelandic Sagas celebrate the beauty of the cliff giants (bergrisi), and certain warrior kings that descend from them. Modern Scandinavian folklore celebrates the male beauty of the Fossegrim and the Huldrekarl/Huldrekall, nature spirits comparable to nymphs, but masculine men. By contrast, British cultural values tend to downplay male beauty and only emphasize femininity as an ideal of beauty. For example, angels are unambiguously masculine in ancient biblical texts, yet because of their beauty, modern British artists often depict angels as feminine. Ultimately, beauty and luminosity are identical. In the Norse Eddas, the radiant beauty of Baldr is the light of the daylight itself. Likewise, in medieval British poetry, the supernatural beauty of biblical Judith is described as ‘elf shining’ (ælfscinu), a magical beauty that shines an aura of light.
I can see that it's elaborating on what I've already written, so thanks for seeking to develop it. At the moment though, this material doesn't have references to scholarly sources. Also, although I can see that there's something to the comparisons you're making here, they're also perhaps more lengthy than is necessary in an encyclopaedia entry (and some aspects are covered later in the entry). So I suggest deleting this passage -- with thanks, though, for your work here! Alarichall (talk) 18:34, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Richard McWilliams until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Wgolf (talk) 02:23, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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