Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numismatics/Archive 6

Cypriot pound and Maltese lira

As 1 January 2008 approaches, the day Cyprus and Malta join the euro, we must prepare for the change on Wikipedia. I am pre-emptively making a list so that we can make the change quickly and minimize edit conflicts. We also need to pat attention to verb tense and any mention of the total number of states and population that use the euro.

A lot of changes
Some changes
Trivial changes

Images

For Venezuelan bolívar

Please feel free to add to the list or leave any comment. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 10:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to remind everyone that the Cypriot pound and the Maltese lira will circulate alongside the euro until January 3, 2008. Also, Venezuela will reevaluate the bolívar. The new ISO 4217 code will be VEF. – Zntrip 17:55, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've compiled another list for the bolívar. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 01:02, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have updated local copies of DOLLAR_AND_EURO_IN_THE_WORLD.svg, Euro_accession.png, and Euro_outside.PNG. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 04:00, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Whoever updates the euro article first, please remember to add Template:Currencies of Asia to that page, since Cyprus's adoption will mean that the currency is used on yet one more continent. (212.247.11.155 (talk) 14:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Remember to update Cyprus in 40 minutes, and Malta one hour later! (212.247.11.155 (talk) 21:22, 31 December 2007 (UTC))[reply]

It seems someone through a monkey wrench into our bolívar list by making the page Bolívar fuerte. I don't know if it is a new currency entirely or just a reevaluation of the old one. – Zntrip 07:17, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Up to now, our standard has been to consider it a new currency if the currency's name is changed on the notes and coins, and to consider it a mere revaluation if it's not. As the new notes and coins still feature only "bolívar", I'd venture that there should be no new article... —Nightstallion 16:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pattern Coin

I've expanded the pattern coin page so that it is not a stub anylonger. However, it now almost only focus on US patterns. Maybe someone can expand it with information about foreign patterns? Also a part about the 2 major reference books, Pollock and Judd can be welcome. Pictures could be good too. Dennis88 (talk) 13:26, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-Meiji coinage in Japan

See corollary thread at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan#Pre-Meiji coinage in Japan

An exchange of views at Talk:Japanese yen/Archives/2012#Etymology is developing. Attention is focused on two sentences only:

En literally means "round object" in Japanese, as yuan does in Chinese, referring to the ancient Chinese coins that were circular in shape and widely used in Japan up to the Tokugawa Period. In 1695, the character 元 (ghen), signifying "round or rounded") was placed on the obverse of copper coins.
The reference source for this fact is:

As I understand it, other editors are incredulous, suggesting that this data is likely to be spurious because confirmation is not readily found in conventional numismatic reference books which concern themselves with coins in general circulation during the Edo period Tokugawa shogunate in Japan.

I wonder whether constructive comments or other helpful contributions are better solicited here in this venue. --Ooperhoofd (talk) 19:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

End of thread: The two questionable sentences were removed from Japanese yen in the absence of further, specific corroborating reference material. --Ooperhoofd (talk) 19:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article title

Why is there an article about Japanese yen instead of Japanese en? Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics/Style#Article titles suggests that it should be called Japanese en (i.e. local name, not a translation). The Japanese currency isn't mentioned amongst the exceptions, and no transliteration standard will result in "yen".

And it says: "All different rubles, even though it is spelled рубль, рубель, and рубл in Russian, Belarusian, and Tajik. And no transliteration standards will result in "ruble"."

Why is that exception in place? There is no page for Dutch guilder, despite that name being as common as Russian rouble/Russian ruble.

(Stefan2 (talk) 23:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC))[reply]

The 'yen' is by far the common English name, which is preferred by policy. Wikipedia policy takes precedence over our article title style guide. +Hexagon1 (t) 00:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding a currency table...

Soviet rouble#Replacement currencies in the former Soviet republics has a column about "Planning to join the euro", and apparently EEK, LTL and LVL are marked with "yes" in that column, while all other currencies are marked with "no". But is that true? I seem to understand that the governments of GE and UA want to join the EU, so I suppose that the governments of those countries also want GEL and UAH to join the EUR, although the plans would be on a much less preparatory state (the issuing countries aren't even official EU candidates yet). And god knows what the governments of other countries might have in their minds. For example, at a point with bad relations with RU, the president of BY suggested that BYR might join the EUR at some point. Maybe the column title should be changed into something better? How would "Bound to join the euro" sound? (Stefan2 (talk) 00:11, 3 January 2008 (UTC))[reply]

What about "obliged to join"? Your suggestion is fine by me too. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 18:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't some pages be moved?

Kazakhstani tenge -> Kazakh tenge Kyrgyzstani som -> Kyrgyz som Tajikistani somoni -> Tajik somoni Turkmenistani manat -> Turkmen manat Uzbekistani som -> Uzbek som

Or what do you think? (Stefan2 (talk) 00:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC))[reply]

No -- the discussion on this has taken several times, and the -stani form is the correct adjective of the country, as opposed to the ethnic demonym. —Nightstallion 01:11, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then why is the currency of Afghanistan listed as "Afghan" and not as "Afghanistani"? (Stefan2 (talk) 17:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Remonetisation

Is that a word? Should it be "redenomination"? --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 22:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, what that article talks about is redenomination, altho remonetize and remonetization are words meaning to make into legal tender again [1] and [2]. Joe I 06:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, it seems to me that "redenomination" is still a better word. Sometimes this process introduces a new unit that is never seen before. So "to make into legal tender again" doesn't always describe the process. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 22:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From User talk:Tabletop, one can see that the author of the Remonetisation article agrees. Remonetisation means something else, so cannot be redirected. Karl (talk) 09:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are several dozen of these links in our articles that appear to have been spammed. Before I or someone else goes ripping them all out, I thought I post a note here to make sure there wasn't some compelling reason not to. There's also a good chance they may need to be blacklisted

I notice there's already some discussion at Talk:Roman currency:

--A. B. (talk) 03:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish ducat in 1500s

Hey guys. Not sure if this is the place for it or not but it seems like this WP would be the best place to ask this. Over at the Francis Drake article we've run into a problem. At one point in the article it says "King Philip II was claimed to have offered a reward of 20,000 ducats (about $10 million by 2007 standards) for his life." but then later it says "37,000 ducats of Spanish money (almost 4 million by modern standards)." This was recently noticed and a {{what}} tag was placed. It's been talked about a little on the talk page, but we can't find how much a ducat is compared to modern US money. The first event with King Philip II offering it was in 1582. Not sure the exact date of the second mention but it is ca. 1589. Thanks for the help! Deflagro C/T 23:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind, I got help from the Help Desk instead. Deflagro C/T 02:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

TfD nomination of Template:Euro coins

Template:Euro coins has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. —Bkell (talk) 21:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion has been closed as a Speedy keep, per the arguments put forth in the previous TfD. In addition, the concern over the use of non-free images outside the mainspace has been resolved. If you are aware of any articles that this template was transcluded onto in the past, but from which it has now been removed, please feel free to restore it. Happy‑melon 13:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ISO 4217 codes for obsolete currencies

User:81.168.80.170 recently edited a considerable number of obsolete currency articles to include "ISO 4217" codes even when the currency was obsolete long before the adoption of ISO 4217 in 1978. Apparently he got the codes from here, but while it's interesting that the Swedish Kopparplatmynt (1625-1776) apparently has code "SEC", and the contemporaneous Daler Silvermynt "SED", and Paper Daler "SEP", I'm not convinced that it serves any useful purpose to have such codes in articles on currencies which ceased to have validity before 1978. Can I canvass opinions here on whether we should include them? -- Arwel (talk) 01:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While the excel sheet is a valuable resource, it is not without errors from my own experience of researching with it. I suggest we refrain from using it as the sole source. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 12:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any reliable source for ISO codes for obsolete currencies? (212.247.11.156 (talk) 16:07, 12 April 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Don's coin site

If anyone would look at the links at the end of the Iraqi dinar page the site is constantly deleted as span. Any thoughts? Enlil Ninlil (talk) 04:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox Coin questions

I made a couple of comments about this at Talk:British two pence coin, but I think that page gets little traffic, so I'll ask here.

  • The template seems to have been set up to cope with only one obverse and reverse design image, so I'm assuming it's standard practice to depict the most recent design (or, in the event that there is a standard coin with variant special isses, the standard design). The "design", "designer" and "design date" fields seem to assume that only one design is being covered in the infobox, so I'm assuming it's standard practice for these fields to relate to the design that's depicted. Is this correct?
  • I'm confused about what "design date" is supposed to mean. It seems that some interpret it as the date that the design was originally conceived. To me it ought to be the date that the design first appeared on the coins. Any views? 86.140.130.168 (talk) 20:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


articles

here are a few articles me and some other fellow have been working on that u may wanna add to WikiProject Numismatics.

  1. Euro gold and silver commemorative coins (France): 2002
  2. Euro gold and silver commemorative coins (France): 2003
  3. Euro gold and silver commemorative coins (France): 2004
  4. Euro gold and silver commemorative coins (France): 2005
  5. Euro gold and silver commemorative coins (France): 2006
  6. Euro gold and silver commemorative coins (France): 2007
  7. Euro gold and silver commemorative coins (France): 2008Kevin hipwell (talk) 01:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Euro gold and silver commemorative coins (Spain)Kevin hipwell (talk) 17:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if there are anyone in this project. Can we advise how to add the previous articles into the numismatic project? Thanks Miguel.mateo (talk) 12:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of Noted Numismatists

I was thinking of starting a list of noted Numismatists. However I am not sure whether I should add it as a separate article or as a subsection of the Numismatics article.

The format of the list would be something like Greek Numismatics/Roman/Middle Ages/Islamic. If any one wants to do the Modern section you can, becuase I definetly do not know enough on the subject.

I also intend to write a series of articles/biographies which will include the bibliographies of these numismatists.

It may be good to clarify that I am talking about scholars and not collectors or merchants.

What do you think? - Getas75 (talk) 17:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clain-Stefanelli's bibliography of all numismatic books has indexes for 'Authors' (people who wrote about coins) and Collectors (people who owned coins). I'd like to see the Noted Numismatists broken up this way, plus a category for noted coin dealers for folks like Stephen Fenton.

(Clain-Stefenelli also had indexes for Personal Names (people who appeared on coins), Geographical Terms (places), Numismatic Terms, and Public Collections. A Public Collections category would be good for articles like Numismatic Museum of Athens. The Names and Geographical might be interesting categories, but like the 'ancient mints' category they might be difficult in practice. I'd also like to see a category for Numismatic books, for articles like the ones on the Standard Catalogs and the Red Book, possibly with sub-categories for ancient/medieval/modern.) - esnible (talk) 28 April 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 12:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Exonumia stubs

Greetings! I have nominated this category, although not the template, for deletion, as it has been underfilled and unmaintained. See WP:SFD for discussion. Cheers, Her Pegship (tis herself) 21:20, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Numiszendium

You can find a link here; [3]. The Numiszendium is being opened up only to serious collectors & numismatic writers by invitation only. In addition, a real names policy is being imposed to deter spammers and vandals. - (131.203.104.10 (talk) 04:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Coin images

I'm trying to find images for a couple of US coin articles and I'm very confused about what constitutes "public domain". I've read at the US Mint website that the designs of a limited set of coins are not, or may not be, in the public domain (state quarter series, Sacs), but the rest are. I've read in the infobox of a coin image on Wikimedia Commons that the rationale for license of the images is something about it being a coin of the US government not on that list, and as such is "ineligible for copyright". Does that mean that if I find a picture of a US coin on the net somewhere, it is, by definition, in the public domain? If not, how does one find usable images of US coins (other than Wikimedia Commons)? --AnnaFrance (talk) 19:15, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme

As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.

  • The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
  • The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
  • A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot (Disable) 21:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

US Bills suggestion

The article for US paper money is entitled Federal Reserve Note; however the infobox for US money uses the term 'paper money', and the actual article on each note (eg United States one-dollar bill) open with "The United States one-dollar bill ($1) is a denomination of U.S. currency, and is also the most common.", with U.S. Currency linking to United States dollar; Shouldn't this all be standardized? The dollar bill isn't a donomenation of the US Dollar Currency unit, it's a denomination of paper money (Fed. Res. Note). The Fed Res Note article isn't linked to in these articles until the end of the first paragraph or later... TheHYPO (talk) 03:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is a denomination, like the 25 cent coin or the 50 dollar note. Enlil Ninlil (talk) 04:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Articles flagged for cleanup

Currently, 2002 articles are assigned to this project, of which 401, or 20.0%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 14 July 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. Subscribing is easy - just add a template to your project page. If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 11:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above message was for articles tagged with {{Numismaticnotice}}. There are 333 more articles tagged with {{Exonumianotice}}, of which 86 (25.8%) are flagged for cleanup. Maybe the two templates should be merged, or {{Exonumianotice}} just replaced with a redirect to {{Numismaticnotice}}? --B. Wolterding (talk) 17:41, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese cash

An issue related to currency naming guidelines is under discussion at Talk:Chinese wén, specifically the use of English names of currencies as currently recommended by the style guidelines as well as WP:UE. If interested, please discuss a resolution of a titleing issue and give suggestions there. — AjaxSmack 01:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Numismatic

Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

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I happened upon Template:Standard numismatics external links today, which is used in about 400 different currency articles. Several of the links are plastered with advertisements, and at least two of them seem to be heavily focussed on linking to eBay auctions for coins and banknotes. I don't know what state these websites were in when the template was created, but today, not so good... Thoughts?   user:j    (aka justen)   00:19, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely ridiculous. This appears to be a horrendous abuse by eBay affiliates. Bobby I'm Here, Are You There? 00:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Specifically, Don's World Coin Gallery and Ron Wise's World Paper Money has loaded up every page with dozens eBay affiliate links. Totally unacceptable in my opinion. Bobby I'm Here, Are You There? 00:50, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(←) It seems to me that it is quite probable this template can be summarily deleted as linkspam, but I want to give the creator time to respond here in case I'm really missing something. In the meantime, I've blanked the template, because I think eBay can do fine without our assistance. The blanked template degrades gracefully, with only a small (almost unnoticeable) additional line spacing resulting. If this template is ultimately deleted, we'll need to have a bot go through and remove it from the articles.   user:j    (aka justen)   01:44, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nominated for deletion here.   user:j    (aka justen)   02:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I have noticed over time the adverts have been increasing. With the coin page we could une the image linke themselves of go over to another website, same with the banknootes. Is the top advertisment? http://www.coinsv.narod.ru/c_pages/bolivia.htm It looks like but half I can'tread and the rest maybe. Or maybe http://www.bank-note.org/afganistan.html is there addvertisement? Maybe. Just suggesting. Enlil Ninlil (talk) 05:09, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which Æthelred?

On commons, Image:Athelred.gif is categorised as a coin of Ethelred of Wessex. It looks to me like it is in fact a penny of Ethelred the Unready. What do the experts think? Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:23, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gallery of coins (4th nomination)

Are members of this project aware of the above AfD discussion?

Some expert views might be appreciated, there. AndyJones (talk) 13:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FAR: Virtuti Militari

Virtuti Militari has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. --ROGER DAVIES talk 15:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Naming conventions

Articles should be titled as 'Coins of a country', not 'Coins of a currency'. An example is 'Coins of Zimbabwe'.

In the case of banknote articles, they should be titled as 'Banknotes of a country', unless more than one issuer issued banknotes for that country. Scotland, England, South Africa, and Rhodesia are such countries.

Where a banknote issuer has issued banknotes for more than one country, such articles should be titled 'Banknotes of issuer (country)'. For example, the Bank of Montreal issued banknotes for both Lower Canada and Quebec, therefore, the articles 'Banknotes of the Bank of Montreal (Lower Canada)' and 'Banknotes of the Bank of Montreal (Quebec)' should be created.

Where several issuers have similar names, but different end tags, these tags need to be included. For example, there are several issuers titled 'Royal Bank of Scotland', but they are Royal Bank of Scotland Limited and Royal Bank of Scotland Plc. Their articles would have to be titled 'Banknotes of the Royal Bank of Scotland Limited (Scotland)' and 'Banknotes of the Royal Bank of Scotland Plc (Scotland)'. - (203.211.72.6 (talk) 11:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Zinc alloys

The WikiProject Elements will work on the zinc article this mounth (COTM) and my interest in the history section brought me to the articles Calamine brass and Orichalcum, which are two articles which are basically about the same metal in the eye of a chemist (a copper zinc alloy used by the romans). The Orichalcum article is taged as WikiProject Numismatics so I would ask you a favour. Could somebody have alook if this is true? Second point is that most of the Orichalcum article is based on myths about altlantis and leaving out the real facts that the romans produced large amounts of Orichalcum for coins and decorative items. Two old books [4] and [5]. Thanks --Stone (talk) 12:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Hello, I am a collector of coins and notes and article writer for wikipedia. I recently uploaded several images (scans) of notes of my collection to the Costa Rican colón article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Rican_col%C3%B3n) . They have recently been edited, reduced to very small sizes, and have had the word "specimen" written all over them. It "sucks" the way they look. This has to do with copyright problems (supposely). However, most of those notes are from 1899-1920, some of them from banks which no longer exist, such as the Banco Anglo Costarricense. The others are from other banks such as Banco Nacional and Banco de Costa Rica which at that time were private banks, but today are commercial state-owned banks. Others notes are more recent, 1950 + ,from the Central Bank, but are no longer circulating... Taking this into account, can something be done so that they stay in their original, nice-looking size? Daniel32708 (talk) 04:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)daniel32708[reply]

I would suggest to revert the changes, and ask the editor the reason why they were changed. I do not see any legal or copy-vio related issues. Let me know if you need more help. Miguel.mateo (talk) 05:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You need to find more specific licensing info. Costa Rican copyright laws concerning money and age. Most countries do not require specimen or low res pics, but some do. If you can show where Costa Rica gives free range with it's currency then the reverts could be made. Joe I 19:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I could ask that to the central bank for example, but how can I ask that to banks which no longer exist? Also, why do we need to comply with costa rican laws when wikipedia is in the states (i am not talking about copyright laws but laws that requiere specimen to be written on notes) ? Daniel32708 (talk) 20:16, 9 December 2008 (UTC)daniel32708[reply]

New article that needs a lot of work

A new article appeared recently, now entitled Historical money of Tibet. It currently needs a great deal of wikifying work, but it looks as if it might end up being quite useful, maybe? All I did just now was put some categories on it. They may not even be the best categories but it's a start... I am not qualified to judge the merits of the article, or work on it really: I am a mollusk person and came across it only because a Bot thought it was a gastropod article because it mentions cowries, gastropods are my Project. Would someone from this Project please take a look at it? Thanks. By the way, I am willing to help tidy it up a bit if someone thinks it is worth the effort. If you reply on here please also drop a note on my talk page too. Thanks! Best to you all, Invertzoo (talk) 22:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also just now make paragraph breaks, put in a lot of WP links and worked on the formatting some. Invertzoo (talk) 23:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did some work on layout matters. A view to the content from a member of the Numismatics project would be very welcome indeed. Cheers, Davin (talk) 09:55, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Slovakia

Ok Slovakia will change to the Euro on the first and things need to change, so what and by whoem. I will check for what to do tomorrow. Enlil Ninlil (talk) 01:53, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]