Hi guys! Some of you may remember me from about 15 years ago as I was quite active way back when. I ended up taking an extended break away from wikipedia as a fight over diacritcs left a foul taste in my mouth. I've become active once again, except more along the lines of geography (fewer squabbles). Since I've been 'away', I hadn't paid much attention to the MoS, so lately I've been playing catchup. Just curious, the MoS says use most common in reliable English sources for modified letters and the like. So, if that's the case, why do we have articles like Marián Šťastný? No, I have no desire to start that fight again, I'm just curious why the MoS isn't followed here (and everywhere else on wikipedia). Thoughts? Anywho, now that I got that off my chest, I wanna help out a bit here. Any areas that need some work?Masterhatch (talk) 22:59, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Pretty much for the same reason that they got away with defying the MoS and COMMONNAME in the first place: the language warriors were shriller, louder, more persistent, and formed a consistent claque. Heck, the nationalist battles are waged all over the place ... like over the bit in the MoS stipulating that the official birthplace in a biographical article reflect the political facts on the ground at the time of birth, something that a lot of eastern European editors hate like poison, or the claque insistent on inserting at length into every article conceivable that Alexander Lukashenko is the bastard spawn of Hitler and the Devil.
There, getting that off my chest. Anyway, if I were to pick a hockey area into which to dive, I'd go for Hockey Mountain still. Heck, the table hasn't been properly upgraded in a couple years, never mind the info. If I had the focus to do more than occasional gnome work, I'd be doing just that. (And great to see you back! Not too many of us real oldtimers left ...) Ravenswing 04:12, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
You missed out on the Baltic battle. Some Estonian editors had tried to force us to deny that the Baltic countries were ever a part of the USSR. We fought'em back, though. GoodDay (talk) 04:20, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
At this point after many RfCs/debates the wiki as whole pretty much accepts that diacritics for names are the way to go. But yeah it was rocky back then. To be honest I think you left around the time those squabbles mostly finished. Other than the odd short section on it our compromise calmed a lot of the debate down. However, it has recently come up a little bit because the NHL has started putting diacritics on jerseys and in their documents and releases, and a number of news agencies have followed suit, so its likely that our compromise is soon about to go out the window and we will follow what most of the rest of the wiki does and allow them. -DJSasso (talk) 12:20, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
..and if you (and others) throw away the compromise? we'll start to allow the Baltic editors to replace the Soviet Union, withe Estonia, Lativa & Lithuania as birth places & death places, too. GoodDay (talk) 13:41, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
GoodDay the Baltic stuff is a wiki wide thing which we as a hockey project have no control over and has nothing to do with diacritics. Trying to threaten stuff just because you don't like that English sources and the NHL are now using them are ridiculous. And to be honest if you read the wording of the compromise. It actually says to use them in leagues where it is customary, so if it becomes customary in the NHL then we already allow for it. -DJSasso (talk) 15:23, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
No threats. Just a promise that my support will move over to the USSR deniers side. If you or others try to overturn or ignore the compromise. Attempts to take over 100% of the territory, won't be appreciated. GoodDay (talk) 15:27, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
That is literally a threat. You are effectively stating if you don't do what I want I will go support "the other side" in some other issue. There is zero other way to look at that except a threat to be disruptive. -DJSasso (talk) 15:31, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
Not at all. I would never edit-war over a topic of that nature. But would support @Nug:, @Klõps: and their friends in any future RFC 'here', if conditions here change, concerning diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 15:33, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
Pointing out you are threatening disruption with pointy editing is not a personal attack. I have not disparaged you in any way. But yes it is probably best if you stop now before you get yourself in trouble. -DJSasso (talk) 15:40, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
Alright, I just spent 45 minutes updating the table on Hockey Mountain. And the tally is this, for those of you up for some work: of the HHOF members, 81 are Start-class, and over a half dozen are stubs. (This doesn't count the non-HHOF Starts/stubs also on Hockey Mountain, such as retired jersey wearers, and 300 wins/500 goals/1000 pts scorers.) The assessments are badly skewed in a lot of places throughout, but there's plenty of good work to be done to get these to C-class, anyway, instead of permastubs. Ravenswing 04:59, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
Good to have you back. I recognize the name from all that time ago, and glad to have someone like yourself here again. I come and go at the moment depending on other commitments, but have largely steered clear of debates over topics like this now; just prefer doing something constructive, even if a few users are overzealous in trying to do things the "right" way (whatever that may be). Kaiser matias (talk) 00:58, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
Vandalism
While going through some WHA team player lists, I found some vandalism from an ip address and users that seem all connected from about 3 years ago. He kept adding Rene Burger and Joseph Nappo to articles. Sad thing is, most edits went by with no one noticing. I've started reverting, but i'm on my cell phone in an area with crappy service and its taking forever to load pages. Can i get a bit of help? IP User contributions for 204.28.31.3 I've already reverted all the edits for the 2 user accounts, user rene burger and jmnappo. I originally found it at List of Chicago Cougars players. I'll keep trudging along. Masterhatch (talk) 23:38, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
Fixed the Blackhawks one, the Bemidji one looks like it was fixed long ago as he isn't in the current list and the player that he removed was in the current list. -DJSasso (talk) 01:31, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
Ahh you are right, there he is. I guess I was editing too late at night. Removed. And fixed a few from the link Yosemiter posted. The Tennis one based on a very quick google search seems legit unless he really went out of his way to spread the fake around the net. -DJSasso (talk) 12:36, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
There's a few good edits from that ip. I figure a parent made the occasional edit from the family computer and the kid came along and thought it would be neat to insert himself here and there. Masterhatch (talk) 13:14, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
Thanks guys! Normally, I would've just hunted it all down myself, but I was in an area where my phone kept switching from LTE to 4G to nothing and back again. It took FOREVER to load a page so hunting through edits was a slow, painful process. Masterhatch (talk) 14:00, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
IP making un-sourced additions.
An IP (184.146.38.43) has been making un-sourced edits concerning captains & alternate captains on past/current/future team season articles. GoodDay (talk) 19:00, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
Stanley Cup Finals vs Stanley Cup Final
While I agree most people still say Stanley Cup Finals, it's officially Stanley Cup Final and it seems dropping the s is becoming more and more common (at least here in Canadian media). Is there a point where we consider dropping the s in our article titles? I'm not suggesting we move it now, but I want to bring it up. On that talk page, there was an on going conversation that lasted years with no conclusion. I don't know if this topic has been brought up here before as there are way too many archives to sift through. Thoughts?Masterhatch (talk) 13:36, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
Another possibility is to sidestep the issue completely the way the Associated Press apparently does: Many newspapers use a lowercase "f" to say "Stanley Cup finals" instead of capitalizing the last word. Of course, that would massively upset many people on Wikipedia (see the long-running edit war over whether to capitalize "the" in band names used midsentence). I agree with DJSasso and I note that the first clause of Masterhatch's comment ("While I agree that most people still say Stanley Cup Finals") would seem to decide the issue. (The NHL's unexplained and sudden preference for "Final" has annoyed me ever since they adopted it, but I try hard to be neutral in analyzing the issue here.) As a practical matter, trying to rename all those articles (and, potentially, the links pointing to them, although redirects would help) would be an utter logistical nightmare. The biggest thing that bugs me is when a single article is inconsistent on "Finals" versus "Final," sometimes even in the same paragraph. 1995hoo (talk) 16:58, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
I don't think "logistical nightmare" is an excuse to not do something. The purpose of this rfc was more along the lines of "when", not "if" the s should be dropped on Wikipedia. Officially, there is no s. Slowly but surely, the media is catching on. So, I ask my fellow wikipedians, at what point do we say, alrighty, looks like most common usage has dropped the s in print, now its our turn? (Btw, I am a STRONG believer that wikipedia should be a follower, not a leader in English language usage). Do we look at all the sports websites, tsn, sportsnet, espn etc and magazines and other publications and say oh, it looks like 50+1 now drop the s or is more complex than that? I have not gone around counting up which ones have the s and which ones don't. Masterhatch (talk) 19:06, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
I don't favour or disfavour either version, as long as we're consistent across the board. FWIW, the NHL does have a good point in dropping the "s", as it's only one series, per playoff year. GoodDay (talk) 19:41, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
For WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGES purposes, I usually just use specific searches across GNews hits such as this time based differences: "final" -"finals" and "finals" -"final". It's a bit rough because I am sure there are some sources that use both at times, but it does give a good sense of how often each term comes up. For example, those two searches still appear to indicate that "finals" occurs with a higher frequency than "final", but "final" is used in more primary and secondary sources (such as the NHL and ESPN sources). (that was also region specific for me, I can't remember the link for regionless GNews search right now) Yosemiter (talk) 20:02, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
I’d be cautious about relying too much on what ESPN do simply because they now have a contractual agreement to broadcast the NHL, so of course anything recent from them will track the league's usage so as to avoid incurring the Wrath of Bettman. 1995hoo (talk) 21:46, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Well, I doubt that ESPN has bothered to change its old archives... From a more general point of view, though, if the intent is to evaluate common usage by sports journalists, it doesn't really matter why they've chosen a given term. After all, the only reason for the style guide of any organization to change in this respect will be to align with NHL usage. isaacl (talk) 22:35, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
The NHL & the media that covers it, do tend to come up with new terminologies. Examples: At some point in time, "team president" became "president of hockey operations" & "coach" became "head coach". GoodDay (talk) 22:34, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
Theoren Fleury
Can I get some eyes on Theoren Fleury? There's a "new' user using a sourced opinon as fact in the lead and twitter as fact . I reverted the initial edits but he reverted mine. I started a discussion on the talk page. Instead of an edit war, I figure its best to have another set of eyes on it. Thanks! Masterhatch (talk) 18:59, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
Anybody have any opinions on this drive-by tag bombing on every section to the oldest North American minor league team page? I agree it could use some more, but it is not unsourced and over-templating looks a bit much to me. Yosemiter (talk) 19:54, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, too much. He did it elsewhere too. I really dislike coming across articles like that (I've been known to "clean them up" from time to time.) Masterhatch (talk) 20:38, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
Sudbury Wolves
Recent edits to Sudbury Wolves by an IP address appear to be an attempt to update the team's affiliates, but no edit summary was provided and the edits broke the infobox template and removed citations. Does anyone have time to look into this? Sorry, I am busy for a while. Flibirigit (talk) 16:30, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
It's been established that the four divisions from 2013 on are back this season, after the one year hiatus. What we don't know is if the playoff format (top three in each division plus 2 wild cards in each conference) will return. I plan on creating the four divisional standings now and we'll figure out what to do with conference (and wild card) standings later. Thoughts? –Piranha249(Discuss with me)15:11, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
Team Schedule for 2021-22 Florida Panthers and Minnesota Wild
Hi, I'm new here. I was wondering if someone could add the team schedules for the 2021-22 Florida Panthers and 2021-22 Minnesota Wild. Some of the teams already have schedules on their team page like the 2021-22 Seattle Krakens and Detroit Red Wings, but others like Florida and Minnesota don't. Would someone be able to add these? I was referred from the general discussion page to this one. I don't have the experience or background to add it myself otherwise I would. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xacver (talk • contribs) 23:16, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
I’d like to re-open this discussion. I apologize in advance for not being sure how to link to a talk page. Never had to do it. I note that Mrohlewis has been going around NHL-related articles changing the word "black" to "Black," sometimes with unexpected results (capitalizing "Blackout" in reference to TV policies, I assume due to a search-and-replace mistake). The edit is, of course, in reference to racial issues. There’s been a discussion on the National Hockey League talk page where the consensus seemed to be not to make the change. I just got a ping from the Black players in ice hockey talk page because he raised the same issue there. I propose that instead of trying to raise the issue multiple times, likely with a different audience each time, that it would be a more appropriate topic for this forum, which will have a broader readership and is a better place to discuss it than raising it on a more narrowly-focused page that is less likely to represent a consensus. 1995hoo (talk) 21:53, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
FWIW, a discussion about the style usage is much more appropriate for wikipedia as a whole and that MOS discussion than here. There is nothing unique about black vs Black in hockey circles that would override whatever the MOS of wikipedia suggests. Echoedmyron (talk) 22:29, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
FWIW - I find part of Mrohlewis' statement on his main page, could be construed as a promise to do Advocate or SPA editing. GoodDay (talk) 15:37, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
I have scoured the WP:MOS looking for a concenus on B vs b. I found nothing there. MOS:CAPS has a lot of guidlines, but nothing on B vs b. Discussion threads seem to end with no concenus. It seems that MOS:VAR is where it always ends up. I don't have a dog in this hunt except to say I like stability and VAR offers that. I'm suggesting that we here at hockey wiki follow the MOS on this one. Currently, VAR seems to be where that's at. Until MOS comes up with an official guidline, we stick with status quo. Remember, folks, wikipedia is not a leader, it's a follower! I want your thoughts! Masterhatch (talk) 18:14, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
Intros to alternate captains' bios
Perhaps a minor detail, but maybe we should put the word "an" before alternate captain, in the bios of alternate captains. Since each team has at least two per season. GoodDay (talk) 20:52, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Would anyone mind keeping an eye out for a sock puppet that edits articles related to the Anaheim Ducks (or sports in general)? The editor started out as Cool a123 and was blocked back in December. Since then, they have been evading their block by using various accounts and IP's coming from southern California (ex. 2603:8000:401:0:0:0:0:0/48 and 172.119.121.249). I haven't had any success in stopping them, so I'm hoping this could get some more attention from any of the project members. Yowashi (talk) 22:46, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Came across Stay-at-home defenceman tonight - it's been tagged for ten years for sourcing (one single citation specific to one example, not even for the definition) and as it "may contain indiscriminate, excessive, or irrelevant examples", which also seems the case. Long lists of current and former stay-at-home defencemen, entirely subjective and most likely original research. Is the article in its current state even useful? It seems more like a list than an article. Thought I would see if someone wanted to improve it rather than AFD'ing it . Echoedmyron (talk) 00:10, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
I was away from wikipedia for almost 15 years. I was VERY active way back when. One of the things i remember was that we excluded pre season stats of any kind. I now see articles with pre season win loss records. Imho, that isn't notable enough for wikipedia. Am I wrong? Cuz I'd love to go around deleting it all. Masterhatch (talk) 23:36, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Part of me feels like I'm still playing catch up. Yowashi makes a good point that we've been adding preseason stats here for a number of years now. So I decided to see what the other NA big leagues do. NFL has its own preseason article and records all the game scores. MLB also has Spring training, but unless I missed it, doesn't keep track of game scores. NBA doesn't seem to do either. In my quick look around (unless I missed the articles), I found nothing re NBA except paragraphs here and there on notable events regarding preseason (2020–21 NBA season#Preseason as an example). Now, i did not go to the respective project pages to see if they have any kind of agreement re preseason. I think we should follow the NBA model. I believe preseason stats are not notable for wikipedia because none of the stats count to anything—not the wins, losses, goals, assists, penalties—nothing! (Except, as far as I can tell, suspensions in preseason carry over to the regular season). Teams don't even dress the best possible players each game. Preseason stats mean nothing in the short or long run. I know wikipedia is not paper, but that doesn't mean non-notable stats need to be included. I think we as a hockey community need to decide on preseason stats. Do we only highlight notable events in preseason or do we continue to include all the game stats? If we agree to keep game stats in, I'll gladly revert my deletes from yesterday and consider this topic closed. If we agree that game stats arent notable, I'll gladly delete them all the way back. (On a side note, the CFL seems to do nothing with preseason) Thoughts? Masterhatch (talk) 12:33, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
@Masterhatch: I have restored the content, which you removed. You cannot just come after whatever years and remove content without asking here first. Several pages that have a WP:GA status have these sections. For example:
The pre-season/preseason game logs have been added for at least the last decade. I mainly edit the New York metropolitan area-based teams (Devils, Islanders, Rangers) pages and all of them have such sections since at least the 2010–11 season (not counting the 2012–13 lockout or 2020–21 season). In addition, I should note that you confuse statistics and game logs (well yes, game logs are some kind of statistics), but when you talk about statistics – player statistics is the first thing that comes to my mind. The pre-season/preseason games are also part of the season just like the player signings before the start of free agency or player selection in the NHL Entry Draft. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:40, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I meant game logs. And I wasn't questioning how long preseason game logs have been around, I was questioning whether statistically meaningless games should be here. Anyways, its not a huge deal. Like I said above, if editors here want it, then let's keep it. But if editors agree meaningless games shouldn't be here, then we'll clean up. If we never have the conversation, we'll never know. That's my two bits. Masterhatch (talk) 15:18, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
I'm neutral on the subject myself, but I've seen them in season articles in other team sports as well. Whether that's a capital-S Standard anywhere, I've no idea, but I'm not enthusiastic about mimicking the practices of other sports Wikiprojects for no better reason than, well, reasons. Ravenswing 03:17, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
I agree that having pre-season game logs gives undue weight to the pre-season game results, and thus feel they are not necessary for Wikipedia articles. isaacl (talk) 15:45, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
New York Islanders alternate captains
Has anyone watched any of the Islanders' games this season? Are there anybody serving as alternate captains for them, this season? GoodDay (talk) 15:34, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
I routinely see the highlight clips on YouTube, but I admit that knowledge flew over my head. If you'd like to do so yourself to see, both the NHL and the Sportsnet channels carry highlight clips of each match that run 8-10 minutes. Ravenswing 11:41, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
@GoodDay: Looking at the HTML roster report of the game helps. I already replied to you on my talk page, but I can repeat it again (since you ignored it for some reason) who the alternate captains in the first five games were this season:
October 14 – Bailey, Clutterbuck (captain Lee played in the game)
October 16 – Bailey, Clutterbuck (captain Lee played in the game)
October 19 – Bailey, Clutterbuck, Nelson (captain Lee did not play in the game)
October 21 – Bailey, Clutterbuck (captain Lee played in the game)
October 24 – Bailey, Clutterbuck (captain Lee played in the game)
It is evident that Nelson is not a regular alternate captain (probably an injury replacement "A") and only gets the "A" when captain Lee is not playing, which was in one game so far. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:59, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
Initially, you 'hid' Bailey, Clutterbuck & Nelson from the Islanders' template roster & from their 2021–22 season infobox. Anyways, in agreement, we don't (and haven't for years) give letters to injury replacements & therefore Nelson (Islanders) & Subban (Devils) no longer wear an A. GoodDay (talk) 15:10, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
@GoodDay: I have begun looking at all Devils' and Islanders' HTML roster reports to see when/if Nelson and Subban will have the "A" and will continue it throughout the season to avoid that "thing" that we had some days ago. – Sabbatino (talk) 15:36, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
I'm gradually pulling away from disputes/potential disputes, lately. No objections to continuing the practice of not adding 'the letters' for injury replacements. GoodDay (talk) 15:38, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
NHL team rosters
Just a thought. Seeing as the NHL 'more then ever' has a high percentage of non-American & non-Canadian players. Perhaps, it's time we replace Canadian provinces/territories & American states/territories, with Canada & United States as birthplaces. GoodDay (talk) 16:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
2004-05 NHL captains, who signed with another team or retired, before start of 2005-06 season.
Concerning the Mighty Duck's Steve Rucchin, the Devils' Scott Stevens, the Islanders' Michael Peca, the Rangers' Mark Messier, the Blues' Al MacInnis & the Thrashers' Shawn McEachern. All these players either signed with another team 'or' retired, just before the 2005–06 NHL season began. We've an inconsistency across NHL articles (team, roster & bios) as to whether these players were still captains of their respective teams during the lock-out 2004–05 NHL season. In the bios, we say they're not. In the 2004-05 team rosters, we say yes & in the bio articles, we say no. I'm willing to make the necessary changes to establish a consensus, if we can decide on the 'yes/no' question. GoodDay (talk) 17:13, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
The rookie tournament could probably be removed as there was barely any coverage for it. As for preseason, I don't see why it should be removed, as it has been included in team season articles for many years now. Yowashi (talk) 01:10, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
I'll stop removing them now. But i gotta say, just cuz its been done before doesnt mean it should be there. I mean, truly, pre season is not notable in any way. Masterhatch (talk) 01:14, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
The season articles include anything that teams do in the entire year, so that includes preseason, rookie tournaments etc. Those sorts of things all go in the preseason section. Season pages aren't about the regular season only, they include everthing from the draft through to the awards at the end of the year. -DJSasso (talk) 11:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Shestyorkin vs Shesterkin
Be advised that an editor has move Igor Shestyorkin to "Igor Shesterkin" which I have already reverted. Only in North America he is called like that. IIHF and other sources still refer to him as "Shestyorkin". – Sabbatino (talk) 15:41, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
Wouldn't this be WP:UE and WP:UCN? Since he plays in the NHL, then the spelling on his jersey would be the most common form as used in English. Presumably he has a say as to what appears on his jersey -- 64.229.90.53 (talk) 21:26, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
Ice hockey isn't popular in Britain or Ireland, so European English-language usage is not a significant factor in use, as no other European country where ice hockey is popular is a major user of English. It would then come down to use in the United States, where he is signed, and Canada, where the media is hockey-crazed. In both cases, they would use the same spelling, since it's the spelling on the NHL sweater that he wears. -- 64.229.90.53 (talk) 03:12, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
The world does not end with Canada and the United States. European countries – those that do not speak English – spell his name as it should be – Shestyorkin. Canadians and Americans tend to misspell and mispronounce a lot of foreign names and surnames. I cannot really listen when NHL announcers butcher the surname of Zibanejad and other European players. – Sabbatino (talk) 15:16, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Use English is pretty clear that we spell it the way its used most in English sources. Between that and how he puts it on his jersey is a slam dunk that it should be at Igor Shesterkin. Just like we would with Sergei Fedorov etc. -DJSasso (talk) 11:07, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
The question I would ask is: Why is the player notable? Is he notable because he plays hockey, or is he notable because he plays in the NHL? It makes a difference because the NHL allows the player to spell his name as he wishes and doesn't necessarily follow the inflexible IIHF guidelines. I note, for example, that Sergei Fedorov's article spells his name as I just spelled it (and as he spelled it during his NHL career), whereas the IIHF would require "Fyodorov." The same applies to Alexander Semin; the IIHF would spell his name "Syomin." Those are two examples that come readily to mind, though I'm sure there are others. I seem to recall the IIHF imposed rules after the unfortunate case involving Semyon Varlamov. When the Capitals drafted him, his first name was very unfortunately transliterated as "Semen." The Caps' fan forum wouldn't even let you use his name; it censored it to "Shipsmen Varlamov" because the word "Semen" was a "forbidden word." Later, the media started spelling it "Simeon"; Varlamov objected to that because it leads to mispronunciation as three syllables instead of two (though I don't think most North American media seem to appreciate the distinction). Either way, it seems to me that because the NHL will honor a player's preference on how his name is spelled, subject to the reasonable proviso that he not change it mid-season due to the administrative hassles that causes, Wikipedia should ask whether the primary reason the player is notable is because of his play in the NHL. If so, then it seems reasonable to follow the player's preference, not the IIHF's bureaucracy. (With that said, Sabbatino certainly has a point about names being butchered. Canadians, especially in-arena announcers at international events, seem to have a penchant for that sort of thing (maybe influenced by Don Cherry?), such as pronouncing "Makarov" like "MACK-er-ov" (stress on the first syllable, like a Mack truck). 1995hoo (talk) 15:30, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
And just one more comment to the above by 1995hoo, there have been times in NHL where a player's name has been spelt wrong (eg. Nicklas Grossmann) and the player had just not bothered to make a fuss out of it until later on, so hard to really say what a player's preference really is (in recent years we've been seeing diacritics being added to jerseys as well, from what I'm assuming to be player's preferences). Connormah (talk) 15:59, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
A quick search of NHL.com, sportsnet.ca, espn.com, and tsn.ca shows Igor Shesterkin. Other searches also support this in English such as hockeydb, theahl.com, thehockeywriters, and yahoo sports. Very few Engilsh sourced webpages use Shestyorkin. KHL uses it and so does eliteprospects But those are in the minority. I found WAY more that use Shesterkin. I am in total favour of moving the article name to Igor Shesterkin under WP:COMMONNAME. Masterhatch (talk) 21:06, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
Eh, all the whys and wherefores are irrelevant. COMMONNAME is clear, and it's the policy which explicitly governs article titles. Ravenswing 20:31, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
Not sure I'd label them as irrelevant too quickly... I think it could be argued that COMMONNAME and name transliteration issues (which this one seems to be) can be seen as separate. Not sure if it's ever been an issue with Sandis Ozoliņš, but he also used a different spelling during his long NHL career. Connormah (talk) 01:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
There's usually some reason proffered for why any given case should be exempted from COMMONNAME. IMHO, such arguments are beside the point, and generally subjective. COMMONNAME remains clear: we are to use the name most familiar to English-language speakers. "Igor Shesterkin" returns over 314,000 G-hits in English-language only sources. "Igor Shestyorkin" returns 15,300. This is an obvious decision for us: how the player himself renders his own name, how it is rendered in other languages, what was on the back of his jersey in the KHL, how the IIHF prefers to call him, all these have no bearing on our policy, which has no carve-outs for the KHL, the IIHF, Russian-language sites, or the (alleged) personal preferences of subjects. (Other Wikipedias, of course, can use whatever criteria seems to them good to make such decisions.) Ravenswing 03:19, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
I was wondering what people's opinions were on potentially adding the overall record, and the breakdown of record to the game log header? Here is an example with the overall record in the game log header: San Jose. Here is an example without the record in the header: Vegas. I feel like it would be beneficial to have a running record at the top that could service as another check to confirm that the records at the top of each page are accurate and up to date. GoWarriors151718 (talk) 21:54, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Ya mean having or not having Xth mentioned in the Conference & Division sections of 2021-22 team season infoboxes? GoodDay (talk) 22:45, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Not exactly. This is the thing that I am talking about. This is the header that is at the top of the Sharks game log. I was wondering if we should standardize it by adding the overall, home, and road records to each of the other teams. I can help out in that effort.
I would likely go with no on that as we try to minimize up to the minute stats/standing information to the point where we don't even put the current record on the team pages. -DJSasso (talk) 11:00, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Although I guess looking at it further you are suggesting the record during that month. I suppose that could be helpful. -DJSasso (talk) 11:17, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Yeah I would say no to that, atleast while the season is ongoing for the same reason we don't put the record on team pages until the season is done. Have no problem with it being there when the season is done. -DJSasso (talk) 17:03, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Agreed, wait until the season ends. Updating during the season can be messy, since all 32 teams don't play the same day, every day. GoodDay (talk) 16:17, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
But since GoodDay (talk·contribs) above already mentioned it. What about the standings in the infobox (place in division/conference)? I see no harm in updating them throughout the season as we do the same for the stats. He removed them from the Sharks page and we had a little discussion but now i see that there is already a discussion about the season article(s) right now i might as well chip in. Kante4 (talk) 21:08, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Yeah the season pages are a bit tricky. Technically the hockey project has a consensus through many discussions not to add current season stats anywhere on the wiki until the season is done. But of course stats are essentially the main function of season pages so that consensus gets a bit tricky for those pages. In the scheme of things I see where we would want them there. But the issues that we try to avoid by not putting stats anywhere, where some pages get updated and others do not still remains. But I would probably say better to have them in one place in the infobox than in two places. -DJSasso (talk) 14:36, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
Totally agree that it makes sense to have them on the current season article. What about the standings? And what about a parameter "updated" where we show to which date those stats/standings are correct. Kante4 (talk) 18:02, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
I would recommend that we wait until the end of the regular season, before adding a team's position in its Conference & Division. Would save a lot of headaches, updating 32 team season infoboxes, when/if they go up, down or stand pat . GoodDay (talk) 18:08, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, best wait till end of season. Wikipedia is not ESPN, TSN, sportsnet, etc. We are an encyclopedia and not a sports website. Let those sites do daily updates and we'll stick to end of season updating as much as possible. Masterhatch (talk) 19:11, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
Nikkimaria (talk·contribs) has started questioning the formation in the first sentence of the lead on teams' pages. Some IP came and changed the formation for every NHL team, which I reverted. Nikkimaria then wrote at User talk:Sabbatino#MOS + consensus (in the past the editor did not even care that this formation was changed by some IP and then restored by either me or Yosemiter (talk·contribs)). I already told the editor that this formation has been used for many years and that it is all according to MOS, but the editor still questions it. I do remember that we had more than one discussion about this (either here or somewhere else), but I cannot find them at this time. Could anyone help in dealing with this? – Sabbatino (talk) 16:31, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
@Sabbatino and Nikkimaria: It has been discussed several times over the years, but it has been mostly agreed that the NHL is not nationalistic. Teams are based in North America with players from all over the world. No team is either Canadian or American as Canadian players still are the majority on all teams, followed by Americans, with a sprinkling of other nationalities. We have therefore chosen to not use any nationalistic signifiers as NHL teams are clearly not national representations. (Just as an example: Vancouver is currently 50% Canadian and 29% American; San Jose is 46% Canadian and 17% American; Chicago is 44% and 36%; while Washington is 32% Canadian, 28% American, and 16% Russian.) It was also much discussed in the this old AfD. We also do not need to write out provinces and states in prose for common name linked locations per MOS:OVERLINK. Yosemiter (talk) 17:55, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
What specific provision in OVERLINK are you referring to? I see that it says not to link the province/state, but not exclude them. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:37, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
@Nikkimaria: That would be an extension of WP:COMMONNAME, where the article is named as such because the name is well known enough to not need further disambiguation. At least at this particular project, the editors have elected to keep written information concise, especially in infoboxes and leads. If it is common enough location to be the article title we don't need to further define (as the subject of the article is usually irrelevant to where a certain city is located within a state or province). If readers aren't familiar with the location, they can just click the link themselves. Yosemiter (talk) 20:54, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
COMMONNAME is an article titling guideline, not on linking or prose, but it does specify the use of state names even when not needed for disambiguation. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:14, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
@Nikkimaria: I am well aware it is for article titling (as is CONCISE), it doesn't mean it is any less common sense. The articles are about teams. Province/state is not relevant to that. If the readers do not know where a commonly named place is, the link exists. Keep leads simple. Yosemiter (talk) 22:17, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
The hell? NONE of them do. (Well, okay, the Raptors' article states that it's the only Canadian team in the league after the relocation of the Grizzlies from Vancouver.) Did you give those articles so much as a three-second glance? Beyond that, let's be serious here: cities like New York, Los Angeles, Detroit, Philadelphia are internationally known, and we need provide their nations to the casual user (short of the city articles themselves) than we need to educate those casual users in what color the sky is. Ravenswing 21:23, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
@Ravenswing:, to be fair, I think Nikkimaria means that the first sentence for those teams say "American/Canadian professional" sportsball team, and not about that they make no mention of the state (which is what I was trying to explain in most of these responses). I think I already covered why we don't use the nationalistic overtones of saying American/Canadian in the NHL. But if needed, the other three leagues in the so-called big four major leagues have a total of 2 out of 62 teams based in a location outside of the US as opposed to the 7 of 32 in the NHL, and are typically considered American sports (I disagree with calling the Raptors "Canadian", but the BBall project has chosen to use that format via consensus). Not to mention that the majority of the players in said leagues also happen to be American. Neither is true, as explained previously, for the NHL's teams and players. It is an international league based in North America, and if a reader happens to end up on the Winnipeg Jets article and somehow does not know that Winnipeg is at least in Canada, then that would honestly WP:ASTONISH me due to how many links they would have needed to dive into that rabbit hole. Yosemiter (talk) 03:59, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
Just want to point out that for the NFL team articles, the word American isn't being used in the same manner as what is being proposed here. In the NFL articles, American is used in the lead sentence to describe the sport those teams play (American football). Leventio (talk) 05:28, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
I think the country should be mentioned somewhere (not necessarily as "Canadian" or "American") in the lead in the spirit of MOS:CONTEXTLINK (though MOS:OVERLINK might preclude actually linking the country). Don't assume the reader has intimate or any knowledge of the NHL or its wherabouts. Imagine you stumbled upon a team in a sport you are not familiar with in a country that you don't readily recognize its states/provinces. MOS:LINK says: Do not unnecessarily make a reader chase links Many readers would be content just knowing the country, which is a minimal addition.—Bagumba (talk) 08:14, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
If you're going to make such changes? do it for all teams, current & former. Otherwise, don't make changes to any of them. Above all, consistency should be maintained. GoodDay (talk) 15:52, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
@Nikkimaria: Other editors clearly stated why the formation is used and the consensus is clear (and has been for years). You or Bagumba (no disrespect to him) can show whatever you want, but the editors of this project think otherwise. – Sabbatino (talk) 20:34, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
Other editors have made assertions, but it does not seem that any have been able to provide specific links to a clear consensus on this issue. For example, it was claimed that OVERLINK says this; it does not. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:37, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
It's very straight forward. If you keep adding Canada or United States to any NHL team articles 'without' a consensus? It will be seen as disruptive editing on your part. GoodDay (talk) 20:51, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm not adding any countries. I'm trying to bring consistency across the 32 team articles. Either we include the states/provinces or we don't. Also, I'm getting a tad annoyed with your combative approach towards me lately. Including your snarky edit summaries yesterday. GoodDay (talk) 19:14, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
@GoodDay: Nowhere did I write anything "snarky" and I do not have a combative approach toward you. It also seems that you deliberately change your opinion for no apparent reason. This is not the first time that you have done this. Just stop and take a break, which is evident from your behavior. And I am not taking ownership over NHL-related articles so stop with personal attacks and accusations. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:38, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm of the mind that not all news events deserve articles (or even mention). I think this goes beyond just something in the news. So, yeah, it's own article would be a good idea. Masterhatch (talk) 03:25, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
Agreed. It merits something like a sentence (and a link) in the main Blackhawks article, longer treatments in the 2021-2 league and team season articles, and has certainly generated enough press to warrant a standalone article. Ravenswing 10:36, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Yep like Ravenswing, I think it deserves a sentence or two in the main article with links to its own full article and a longer summary in team season articles. -DJSasso (talk) 11:15, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Hey guys, it seems like there is a consensus of creating a separate page for the Chicago Blackhawks sexual abuse scandal. I'm quite new to Wikipedia editing, but I created a draft page for this article. I've added one sentence at the top of the page to start the draft and then copy+pasted the description of the scandal from the Chicago Blackhawks Wikipedia page. I don't know if there is a process in WikiProjects: Ice Hockey for creating articles like this, but it will be nice to have more experienced editors' help when creating a potentially contentious article on sexual abuse. Thanks. 18fructidor (talk) 16:56, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
@3 Löwi: if you've a problem with how Komarov's birthplace is shown in his infobox? then bring that concern here. Don't attempt to edit war your change into the article. GoodDay (talk) 21:13, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Hi. Please note that 'Estonia' is a simple, rather clear geographic and rather unpolitical term / whereas adding to it "SSR" would be very controversial and politically loaded at best (for many people, it reminds inflammatory Communist ideology). Also, please note that the English-language Wikipedia common standard usage for 1944-1991 birth places is the rather neutral "Estonia" (not "Soviet-occupied Estonia", "Estonian SSR", or something more politically loaded).3 Löwi (talk) 21:34, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
In light of the controversy around "SSR places", the recommendation to GoodDay, and kind proposal for WP:HOCKEY is to follow the NHL & Hockey Hall of Fame convention of classifying players by the currently existing countries in which their birthplaces are located, without regard to their citizenship or where they were trained. 3 Löwi (talk) 00:00, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
Concerning 3 Löwi's assertion that there is a standardized common usage here, that's just not true, and a RfC as late as two months ago failed to reach a consensus on the subject. WP:MPN does hold that "Older names should be used in appropriate historical contexts when a substantial majority of reliable modern sources do the same; this includes the names of articles relating to particular historical periods." For this project, anyway, we have a longstanding consensus to use the de facto polity in place at the time of the subject's birth. 3 Löwi hasn't proffered a reason why it would be desirable to change that (other than, I presume, satisfying the amour propre of revisionist nationalists), especially when it would require changing thousands of articles. I would Oppose any such proposal. Ravenswing 01:34, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
Actually, toss this question up at Notability (sports). While I'm no fan of lock-step conformity for the sake of conformity, this is a question many a project has fielded. Given that FOOTY routinely uses flags on rosters at all levels of play, and that the same issue's had to have cropped up a thousand times over there, we might want to know how they handle it. Ravenswing 01:15, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
just my own input: i think since the NHL team roster already list the player's birthplace, it might be less redundant to have the flags to show their national team instead. i personally have no issues with the flags being there in the first place. 18fructidor (talk) 00:07, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
Previous discussions (in more than just this sport) have held that we use the country that represents their sporting nationality. When we don't have that we generally in ice hockey have fallen back to the country of birth. But other sports have used the country they would represent if they played internationally. But this is tricky as in hockey it would likely involve guess, some other sports players register as representing a country I believe even if they have never played. -DJSasso (talk) 18:47, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
There was a time when we didn't have the flags included in league rosters of non-IIHF teams. Don't know when they were added, but it kinda occurred under the radar scanners & nobody seemed to notice. Just one of those unusual moments on Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 19:23, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
In the event the merge discussion goes to merge. I have done up a mock up of what it could/should look like. Has the three main things I think we wanted to move over. The current team coached, former teams coached, and coaching career. I think Connormah mentioned putting if they were an assistant coach in but I think that can be done in the text with the team like we do for leagues in the player box. ie "Montreal Canadiens (Assistant)". Anyway you can see the mockup here Template:Infobox ice hockey player/testcases#Coach. It is the middle one. Feel free to comment on it.-DJSasso (talk) 13:06, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
So this discussion closed and I have updated the player box to now be a biography box and include the coaching parameters. I have updated Rick Bowness as a current coach and Don Cherry as a former coach so people can see how it looks. So anyone that wants to help convert the remaining coaches over please do. -DJSasso (talk) 13:26, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
@Djsasso: Why did you add the leagues next to the team if a coach was also a player? I thought it was agreed not to add leagues next to teams for retired players. In addition, why would you list any professional team if it was also agreed to exclusively list top league teams (unless the coach never reached anything above AHL, CHL, etc)? – Sabbatino (talk) 17:17, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
I see what happened. I had an old version of Rick's infobox from in the Infobox testcases page, didn't realize the live one had since been updated. I just copied over from the testcases page. -DJSasso (talk) 21:22, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
All I want to know is 'who' (in the real world) stopped calling them coach & began calling them head coach (which thankfully, we aren't doing in the infoboxes) & 'when' did it begin. PS - Same with, when did the title team president change to president of hockey operations. GoodDay (talk) 21:24, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
The 80's when teams started having assistant coaches. Prior to that teams only had one coach. Don Cherry has talked about it in the past how it used to be so crazy organizing things all by yourself behind the bench. Team President and President of Hockey Operations are generally two different things. One reports to the other. The Team President is responsible for both the business and hockey side of things where as the other is only on the hockey side. -DJSasso (talk) 21:29, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
They should've kept it as coach, since the assistants had their own prefex. The NHL, forever increasingly complex. Hopefully, they'll start re-naming all their league vice presidents, to directors, for the sake of grammar as there's now a commissioner & deputy commissioner (which they were a tad slow to re-name) :) GoodDay (talk) 21:35, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Lining up images in trophy articles
Does anybody know the technique for positioning images into horizontal rows (i.e left to right) for the trophy articles? Calder Memorial Trophy & Conn Smythe Trophy are example of where the images require this. Having multiple player images in vertical style (top to bottom), creates a huge white space on the left half of the article & a longer scrolling down for readers, until you get the list of trophy winners section. GoodDay (talk) 15:43, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
I didn't how to do either of those things, so I reduced the images size on those pages to 100px. Now, they fit in nicely. GoodDay (talk) 15:08, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
When I get home and in front of my PC, I'll set up a gallery. I'd do it on my phone, but I like to visually see how it looks on the "big screen" when I set up galleries on pages I'm not familiar with. Masterhatch (talk) 16:09, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Done. BTW, before I created the gallery, I restored original pic size to have a look at the white spaces mention. There weren't any. GoodDay, you must have a small monitor or something! Masterhatch (talk) 09:35, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
I believe the purpose of them going down the side like they were was specifically to remove all the whitespace that is now there. Atleast on my larger monitor. Not something I would argue about too much but I would note, the images were in that format when those articles passed the Featured List requirements so they meet the requirements of being the best of the best with them being down the side. Personally I would move them back to the side.-DJSasso (talk) 21:59, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
On my larger monitor at home, it does look better down the side. It doesn't bother me either way and if it was reversed, i wouldnt care.Masterhatch (talk) 22:29, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Notability of Second Team All-Americans
It strikes me as odd that a player who is a Second Team All-American is considered notable. This seems to me like an extremely generous interpretation of notability. It goes much farther than the criteria for WP:NCOLLATH especially with respect to awards which provides that a player must "[h]ave won a national award (such as those listed in Template:College Football Awards or the equivalent in another sport), or established a major NCAA Division I record." It also goes farther than the general notability guideline in that All-American Second Team membership does not get "significant coverage" and rarely gets any mention in secondary sources other than those which are listing all of that year's honorees. Even narrowing the scope to First Team All-American membership would be broader than WP:NCOLLATH and broader than the criteria applied to specific sports. Let me know what you think. --Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 02:05, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
That is sort of the point of how WP:NSPORTS is set up. When NSPORTS was originally created it was created because it was realized that one size didn't fit all sports. And so each sport was intended to deviate from other sections depending on the coverage that specific sport got. In ice hockey second team all americans definitely get coverage to meet GNG. -DJSasso (talk) 13:51, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Ted Hargreaves
Looks like someone just copy / pasted Ted Hargreaves' stats from somewhere without doing a proper table. I'm short on time right now. If I can get to it later, I'll try. But if someone has time before I can get to it, great! Masterhatch (talk) 18:13, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
Makes sense. I have time now but I'm on my phone and it's really hard building tables on a smart phone. Obviously it's no rush so when I have time in front of a PC later this month, I'll get to it (and anymore I run across in my travels). Masterhatch (talk) 15:18, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
I used to fix them, there used to be a couple great webpages I used that would convert a copy paste from hockey db to wiki formatting and then you would just have to put the header of the table to our styling which I would just copy paste from having it saved on my computer. So you could do it quickly. But I long since lost those pages. -DJSasso (talk) 13:57, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
"excel2wiki" is a decent one - I haven't used it in a while but just tested it, and it seems to parse whether you copypaste as-is from hockeydb or also works if you dump an excel table in there (for example if you wish to clean up some of the info in excel first). Then as Djsasso says you just have to update headers and tweak wikilinks as required, but a form like this saves tons of time. Echoedmyron (talk) 14:57, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the mention. Ironically it came as I was going through a few more names. Like all my edits, I do them the old-fashioned way and type it out by hand. I should also note that list is only accurate as of the 2019–20 season; I haven't updated it since then, as I would hope that any new players would get attention at this point, and figure old-time players are not going to get the attention needed. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:43, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
Covid parameter in player rosters
I've been mulling for a while on the idea of introducing a covid icon for player rosters, for since the NHL has introduced covid protocols it differentiates from the normal injured icon that indicates injured reserve. It also helps explain the larger rosters around the league when a team is hit by covid.
Wondering on users thoughts agree/disagree or if it's no big deal either way, D/W will undo if no consensus.
IMHO, I don't think anyone looking at a current team roster on Wikipedia is so ignorant of the news that they're unaware of why there are larger rosters right now. Ravenswing 22:40, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
They should be marked in some way. Not sure if a sperate icon is necessary. I would probably just use the same as IR and put a note at the bottom indicating that players on the covid protocol are lumped in with IR. But I don't have a strong opinion on that. Just think marking them as something other than active is probably a good idea as not marking them is essentially saying they are active when they are not. -DJSasso (talk) 15:56, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Just noting the changing & passage of time. Slowly, the Soviet-born, Yugoslav-born & Czechoslovakian-born NHL players are being phased out, via retirement. GoodDay (talk) 17:55, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
What is the point of this? You are supposed to discuss problems, suggestions and other stuff here and not use it for pointless posts since this is not a forum. – Sabbatino (talk) 18:31, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
IIHF World Jr Divisions I, II & III inconsistencies
I suggest deleting the most recent article is the best option, it was created in expectation of the tournament being played.18abruce (talk) 22:32, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
Fixed up the redirects a bit as they should have redirected to their parent article which was the specific years championship page which have sections on the different divisions. Should be good now. -DJSasso (talk) 00:39, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
