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To our great Commander-in-Chief Ling.Nut, I salute you!
My wife and I got a phone call two days ago from the Human Resources dept. of a university, saying they're 95% sure they will hire us. Still some administrative hurdles to cross; we could still lose out. Cross your fingers for us! But this makes it even more imperative that we pass our Prelim exams in August. So I'm just not gonna be doing much of anything on Wikipedia.
I leave secure in the knowledge that WP3K is in your able hands, General _dk! I hope you will continue our bold advance into enemy GA and FA territory. The only way to do that (and I hope and humbly suggest that you follow this way) is to focus on one article at a time (preferably with help from other editors. You can proceed with adding external links & modern references for Battle of Red Cliffs and send it into the unexplored territory of WP:FAC, or you can choose a different article (as we discussed on talk of the wikiproject) and build it up for a mission into GA.. either way is cool. But I hope you'll focus on one...
I will look in from time to time but not much, really...
Hahaha, I'm promoted to general now...No worries there, Commander-in-Chief Ling.Nut, I shall carry on your legacy during your absence to the best of my capabilities. It's great to work with you and I wish you Godspeed. *salutes* _dk04:39, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ha! I'm not & never was the commander. :-) But I might move that cool picture to my userpage as a memento of the startup phase of WP:3K. :-) I will pop in to say hello a little.. and after Septmeber I will be ready to serve! Later... Ling.Nut
The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue XV (May 2007)
The May 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
I was discussing this with Ling.Nut, since I've seen them around before. What do you think of a founding member userbox for yourself, me and Ling? Gamer Junkie01:51, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, something like that, although ours will read "this user is a founding member of WikiProject Three Kingdoms". Check Ling's user page, since he's drawing one up at the moment and already has an example box posted. Gamer Junkie02:44, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) I made the length of the userbox = standard. About the height.. I could fool with it... if you insist... ;-) look at my user page for the founding member option... Ling.Nut04:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
hey, what the heck, ya wanna send red cliffs thru FAC? It may not pass, but I think it has a fighting chance (no pun intended). Ling.Nut01:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think it might pass just as it is — the only negative thing from your perspective is, if anyone wants big changes, it'll mostly fall on you to do it. I can't dedicate a block of time to Wikipedia.. only moments here and there... Ling.Nut03:10, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
de Crespigny discusses the various type of naval craft of the era.. we could find a pic of a relevant Chinese ship...? Will look... Ling.Nut10:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Chinese Wikipedia has no article on naval warfare...its editors were too busy writing about internet memes and minor streets of Hong Kong, all while trolling about politics...I digress. That image seems fine, but it lacks source information though. _dk10:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
More precious sleep spent wiki-ing. :p It's nice to see solidarity finally mounting against the tyrannical rule of the fact-fiction hybrid monster and the beast of sloppy editorship. i could only hope that ours will not fail as the alliance under Yuan Shao did. On the other hand, i'm sorry i haven't been able to do anything about Wei Yan. i did read up on him and i realized that his is VERY complicated story. To produce a respectable article on him requires comprehensive knowledge of the internal politics of Shu Han, and more importantly credible and scholarly papers to cite, both of which i lack. --Plastictv01:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Whoa that's even more ambitious! :p i prefer to contribute little by little at my snail pace. i'd love to answer short and focused questions if anyone has them, or to make small corrections or improvements here and there, but to venture into something of that scale is off limit for my extent of knowledge as well as real-life schedule now. --Plastictv02:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
wait
Hold off on the FAC for red cliffs.. I'm gonna write a new section about possible locations of the battle (email me if you want details; link on my talk page) and make one or two new maps.. but it make take me a few weeks to get around to it! Later, Ling.Nut04:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, dk. You've corrected some of the Musou Orochi/Orochi Warriors/Warriors Orochi/whatever information lately and it's appreciated. I haven't played it yet (it's not in Australia, big surprise) and I'm trying to make everything Wiki standard by fixing grammatical errors, italicising titles and such, but I've basically got no idea about the plot. If you see anything else out of place in terms of the game's storyline, I'll be relying on you to straighten it out. Cheers. Gamer Junkie14:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The most famous out of this bunch would have to be Su Shi's Ode of Red Cliff, so I plan to use that. Of course, the others are great poems too in their own regard... _dk23:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) yes. Moreover, Su Dongpo's shtuff will also be referenced in the "where is Chibi" section (as an example of where Chibi is not, actually), so it would be good to have it in the cultural legacy section... Ling.Nut02:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Chinese chars, tone marks
Hey I think tone marks should be presented once for the name of the article's subject, at the top of the article. An article about Zhuge Liang, then, would have tone marks once and only once for his name, but no tone marks elsewhere... hmmmm... but then again I think tone marks on all the other names.. style names etc.. would be good. Keep those in the infobox... Wikipedia is an information source. Ling.Nut15:39, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I mean, keep them in the infobox. I'll try to reword that section on the WikiProject to make that clear. _dk22:00, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
pretty good idea
I have a pretty good idea what I'm gonna write for "where was red cliffs" but don't have a big enough block of free time. Some day soon I'll get it done. Will put the whole section up, completed... then you & others can check it... later... Ling.Nut22:46, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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I'm really bad with Chinese geography, so I can't really be of help here. Many articles I've seen mention archaeological finds at Puqi in the 1970's, so that should be included if the appropriate source is found. It might also help if we can find the official government announcement stating the renaming of the city... _dk21:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you have or can find any reliable articles..oops are they in Eng. or Chinese..? .. I was gonna say email them to me... but a Chinese article would take me and my dictionary days to decipher (incorrectly) :-). So if you know of English articles, let me know... Ling.Nut21:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Likewise, if you find any Chinese article that you suspect might be relevent, you can send them to me and I will be happy to analyze them for you :) _dk21:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) Actually, there seem to be several available via a couple of subscription-based databases.. um... see for example here ... but I wouldn't know how to separate the big fish (well-known scholars and well-known journals) from the little ones... Ling.Nut21:33, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The stuff there seems to focus on the novel rather than history. Most of them are rather irrelevent, like "How to teach the Battle of Chibi to children", "Copyright infringements after the destruction of the panoramic Battle of Chibi painting", "How did Zhuge Liang persuade Wu to fight", "Learning from Chibi about firefighting on water"....etc. There's one talking about geography here: [5] but it appears to be a fringe theory. _dk22:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The scholar.ilib.cn database offers "related links": See this and its links at the bottom of the page... anything look useful in any way? Ling.Nut23:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The first five related links look useful at a first glance. But forgive me, I'm not quite willing to subscribe to their databases...._dk23:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) There's nothing to forgive. :-) I would be extremely reluctant to subscribe to anything, too, if it cost money to do so. Sometimes (rarely) these things are free; you just need to provide them with a valid email address that they can spam from here to eternity... Ling.Nut00:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The databases here in this case do cost money. But I just realized that I can exploit my student status to access my university's databases freely, so I'll see how that goes :) _dk01:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I already tried that on my end. My uni has extremely limited access to anything written in Chinese. But if you have better luck, then try these also (titles translated to English by de Crespigny):
Jiang Yongxing, [The site of the Red Cliffs of Zhou Yu], Lishi jiaoxue, Tianjin 1980.12, 50
Shi Ding, [Some questions on the battle of the Red Cliffs], Shixue yuekan, Zhengzhou, 134 (1981), 8-17
Shi Ding, [Examination of the Red Cliffs], Shehui kexue zhanxian, Changchun 13 (1981), 190-199
Wu Yingshou and Zhang Xiugui, [Examination of the Red Cliffs], Fudan xuebao (shehui kexue) zengkan, Shanghai August 1980, 131-135
Wu Yongzhang and Shu Zhimei, [Discussion of the Red Cliffs], Jiang-Han luntan, Wuhan, 1979.1, 84-87
Yang Guanyi and Ding Fang, [One opinion on the site of the Red Cliffs], Bulletin of the Chinese Historical Museum, Beijing 1979.1, 40-42
Zhang Zhizhe, [Discussion of mistakes on the Red Cliffs campaign], Xuelin manlu, Beijing, 1 (1980), 79-83
For some odd reason, my uni's Asian Library has those authors, but our collection of their works center around the cultures of China rather than Chinese history...._dk03:48, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And now, I present an unlikely source --- Youtube. [6] Someone uploaded Yi Zhongtian's televised Three Kingdoms lectures, and this episode talks about Chibi....I don't know if this will help as he touches on the geography rather briefly, but he did say the academic consensus points to Puqi. _dk11:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, no prob. But I think some people support Jiayu as an option.. but I can't find sources. I don't even think I can mention it! And I don't even really have a wealth of sources to support Chibi City (Puqi, that is). I'm disappointed. :-( But I'll make the best of what I have... Ling.Nut00:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we can translate the section on geography from the Chinese Wikipedia on Red Cliff, it's sourced, at least. _dk01:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) Oh, I didn't know they had such a section... yeah that would be very doable... We can add that to what we have, anyhow... Ling.Nut01:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think I can finish the stuff in my workspace on Sat. or Sun., then we can add the Chinese Wikipedia stuff. If you feel like working on translating it, that would be good. But some of the sourcing looks suspiciously sketchy to me. Makes me a little nervous. I may balk at adding some of their stuff. We'll see.... Later! Ling.Nut02:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
True, they say archaeological findings in 1973 and 1976 uncovered shipwreck and artifacts from that era.... This would be the most convincing evidence arguing for the Puqi theory, but they didn't list a source, and I can't find any. Bah. In other news, for my part of the bargain (writing the cultural legacy stuff), I have been busy lately with summer school, so I don't know when I can start.... _dk02:57, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There are two brief articles on the LexisNexis News database about a "Battle of Red Cliffs" theme park of some sort being opened up in Puqi several years ago. If you can't access them, I'll email them to you. It's worth mentioning... Later! Ling.Nut04:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can't access them. _dk 07:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC) Nevermind, found them. I think this information would be better in the Puqi article (which need to be renamed, btw) though. _dk10:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) I renamed (moved) it to Chibi City. If the park is actually about Red Cliffs, then it deserves mention in both articles. I don't recall what the park theme was though. I'll look again some day. Ling.Nut10:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, the Cao cao article has Red Cliffs "northwest of Chibi City", which means either Jiayu or Wuhan, unless it means just outside the Chibi City limits or some such... Ling.Nut11:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You might want to ask someone else for this...my knowledge in Chinese geography is not so great. Find the person who originally put that in, I guess? _dk11:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Chinese wiki doesn't give Wuhan as a possible site, and Wuhan is definitely a minority view. But there is a local tradition to that effect, plus I found the relevant article somewhat convincing. :-) I don't wanna quote anything the Chinese wiki says unless we can track down the precise articles in which person A made assertion B. Ling.Nut11:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(dk undents for a change) I don't quite follow what you meant in "the relevent article" and "local tradition". As for the precise articles.....hoo boy, this is going to be difficult... _dk11:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but "Wang Li said" does not cut it. I could just as easily write say "Abraham Lincoln said Red Cliffs was in Jiayu." I can't accept it unless we have the actual article or book/page... I ask Nlu too many questions; I'm embarrassed to ask if he has stuff by the people cited in the article. But he might.... does anyone else you know have tons of stuff? I looked up Wang Li in my uni for starts and found zilch. Ling.Nut11:31, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. Maybe you can ask around the WikiProject China? Also, I've found the official Chibi city website, which proves to be a potential source for the name change in 1998 [7]. The website also gives information about Chibi's recent developments, so that's good...but I wouldn't rely on this site for actual history/historical geography. _dk11:41, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Moved it into the main article, hurray!!! :-) But it still needs polishing/work... the first paragraph is missing a sentence or two forex.. Ling.Nut18:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Great work :) For the most widely accepted battle site, Puqi's paragraph is comparatively short.... _dk22:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) Yeah, the whole thing needs finishing work, but at least it's enough to put on the article. I'm making a map of some historic changes of the Yangtze river... which would affect the idea of the location... I'll look at the forum you mentioned tomorrow... Later! Ling.Nut02:08, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PS Wow the Sawyer books look fascinating. You're gonna turn me into a Chinese Military History buff! :-) BTW, after reading Zhang (2006) and because of a vague and probably incorrect intuition about military matters (based partially on an extremely-beginner's-level knowledge of 圍棋 I don't think Chibi was at the Puqi site; I think it was downstream, either in Jiayu or Wuhan. I think "vanguard forces" would have been sent downstream toward Cao Cao's adversaries. Here I'm assuming that Wulin was Cao Cao's main base of operations. :-) Ling.Nut15:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PPS hey do you feel like writing messages on the Chinese wikipedia asking for help with the sources of the "Location" info? It was originally posted by Stargate756, but I doubt that anyone with "Stargate" in their username got the info from anywhere other than some Internet site. But maybe other editors there might be able to help. Ling.Nut15:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, would you think anyone with "deadkid" in their username to get their information from anywhere other than some Internet site? XD Anyways, I left a message on the Chinese Battle of Chibi talk page. _dk22:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) Yeah, been there done that on the goth chicks, back in my antediluvian single days. They're always like, "Let's get stoned and talk about how much we hate our parents." Gets a bit dull, kinda quick actually. Ling.Nut19:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but the girls you linked to look like they could drain your bank account in less than a week, without breaking a sweat. :-)
I gotta study. The location section needs work, but I dunno when I can get to it. It may be a while.. cross your fingers for me! Later! Ling.Nut23:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue XVI (June 2007)
The June 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
Can you find the bit where Cao Cao trained his men on lakes before the Battle of Red Cliffs? I think your link to the Sawyer discussion mentioned it, and I think I remember seeing that training period mentioned back when I had books from the library... but I suspect it may have been in "Romance" instead of anything reliable... I don't have those books now... if the troops trained for months, this time period also makes schistosomiasis a possibility, as the Chinese wikipedia says (and has a good reference for :-) ) Ling.Nut12:21, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's not in either Sanguo Zhi or Zizhi Tongjian, it could have been in the (still reliable) unofficial histories, but I'm not aware of them. _dk23:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Cr*p. The "artificial lake" bit was quite interesting. But it does sound... suspicious. Thanks! BTW, I uploaded the mengchong doujian (蒙冲斗舰) image under a PD-China License. Ling.Nut00:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) Yes he does. There's a long discussion, pp. 266-268. He says they're mengchong doujian on 266.. first translating it as " a
general description for vessels of war" but later giving more details... "ships covered with raw ox-hide"; "breaking the enemy line" etc. Ling.Nut01:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
One may be reading too much into these scattered and often generalised references, but it seems reasonable to regard the essential division of responsibility among the major ships of these river fleets as being between those which served as fighting platforms for spearmen and archers to engage in close combat, and those covered with some form of protective material, which could be used to break the enemy line of battle and perhaps to damage their ships and men with a ram or by projectiles. In that sense, the phrase mengchong doujian would then describe both the specialised functions of the capital ships at that time.
That last phrase is quite open to interpretation, I see it as saying a capital ship can be either a mengchong or a doujian (and not both). And the reason I swiped that sentence out completely is that it is misleading to say the fire ships were mengchong doujian when every ship that participated in the battle are mengchong and doujian. _dk01:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Zhang (2006) says: "leather-covered assault warships (mengchong doujian 蒙冲斗舰)" Moreover, de Crespigny specifically says they are mengchong doujian; he just discusses the meaning of the term... Ling.Nut01:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I guess the argument here is whether mengchong doujian is one type of ship, or two. My view is that the fleet is composed of mengchong and doujian, thus mengchong doujian. Zhang only provided a literal translation and combined the two meanings together. _dk02:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) Your Chinese is much better than mine. Is it possible in Chinese to omit a conjunction such as 和 or 跟 and let a string of two successive nouns refer to a set of two objects? Ling.Nut02:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Mmmm. I hate to be a pain in the neck, but even still, Wikipedia is about Verifiability, not Truth. We can report what Zhang and de Crespigny said, making sure to cite them. If you wanna add your own view, perhaps in a footnote, you could... but it would be bordering on WP:OR. Ling.Nut04:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying de Crespigny is wrong, I just have a different interpretation of de Crespigny's text (those which you quoted above) than yours. Since he goes into great depths explaining the difference between the mengchong and the doujian, while saying the phrase is "a general description for vessels of war" (like how the word "fruit" is a general description for "apples and oranges"), I believe he's saying that this phrase: "In that sense, the phrase mengchong doujian would then describe both the specialised functions of the capital ships at that time" - does not refer to one type of ship only. _dk05:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) Why don't we ask him, then? :-) But actually, unless he gives us some references to printed stuff, even his opinion is WP:OR... mmm, I don't mean that his opinion about the meaning of his own text would be OR; that would be clarification. But if he expands on the idea and presents unpublished info such as thoughts & opinions, then it's OR Ling.Nut13:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) I'll write an email but post it here before sending it, to be sure I have your position stated correctly. Later... Ling.Nut23:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The only way out of this problem, as I see it, is to quote absolutely everyone. we can't favor one interpretation over another. That raises the question: separate section in "Red Cliffs"; long footnote (probably my favorite option), or separate article? If it were a separate article, it would be pretty stubby.
I'm having similar qualms in my gut about the "Location" section. I think it may be wrong. For one thing, I think the whole Jiayu/Puqi(Chibi City) question may be moot. I am beginning to suspect that many scholars are kinda waving their hands vaguely at location somewhere southwest of Wuhan and somewhere northeast of Baqiu and saying, "Here-ish." For that reason, I'm not sure Jiayu and Chibi City should be considered two distinct options (although they are distinct places). Maybe they should be lumped together in a here-ish option. I'm not sure. I'll keep thinking...
OK I copy/pasted the whole spiel to the Talk of the article. Maybe we should continue there, in case someone else comes along who's smarter than both of us put together ;-)Ling.Nut14:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll make the reply here (why use email when this is more convenient, etc.): You probably shouldn't spend so much time on Wikipedia if it's hindering your education...(speaking from experience, since editing Wikipedia screwed me over for the second year in uni...so I'm not as active now), so take it easy =) As for the image, I think a compass would be useful...and I may add it after I figure out which way is north...=) _dk19:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Looks fine. I still need to think about the text of the section, esp. since we have no refs for shtuff coped from the Chinese Wikipedia. Ling.Nut20:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I just created this article on this very topical subject. The subject matter would make for a good featured article, so I am hoping to enlist your help to get it there qualitatively. Ohconfucius03:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nice rewrite on the Liu Feng page, but Liao Hua was the one who ratted out Liu Feng's disobediance to Liu Bei. Because right before Guan Yu was killed, he wrote off and requested troops from Liu Feng and he was refused. So he rode back to changdu i believe and told Liu Bei. I won't add that to the article since you may disagree, but if you want to you can add it. --EveryDayJoe4502:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, neither Liu Feng nor Liao Hua's biography mentioned that. Liao Hua couldn't be the messenger anyways because he only came back from Jingzhou when Liu Bei went to fight in the battle of Yiling. _dk02:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
hey, I just saw Zhou Tong (archer) get WP:FA and it gave me cravings... ya wanna start the modern refs section.. I could start a page in my user space... here...let me know... Ling.Nut23:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
See, this is what I mean by "all talk and no work". Maybe in August I can work on it; summer school takes priority. _dk00:05, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you're seriously badmouthing yourself, there's no need. I think you and I have different styles: I (usually) prefer to work on one article for a relatively long time, and you like to cruise around and fix many things. :-) You've done good work :-) ! Later Ling.Nut00:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, dk. I just noticed you're name in this article's history. I'm doing a major overhaul and need some references regarding fan/critic response, but I've hit a wall and can't seem to find any. You know where I can get a few? Probably more than two or three professional reviews and fan-based ratings. Gamer Junkie11:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As this game isn't known in the Anglosphere at all (not that I know of)...it's quite difficult to give you any. Your best bet would be to find Chinese/Japanese/Korean sources, but I don't know any websites that provide professional reviews in those languages. Sorry mate. _dk11:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Already tried every resource I can find. Didn't find anything. Or maybe I did and just can't read it :) Oh well, that'll have to do. Gamer Junkie11:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've only come across one single fan review on every forum I've looked in. Fan site might be the best bet right now. What's the address? Gamer Junkie12:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try that. And if the fansite is in Chinese, I can add that to the bottom of the article. I'll try the Legend of Cao Cao thing, first, though. Gamer Junkie12:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Legend of Cao Cao's no good. Found some avatars from the game, but there's a mission in DW4: XL entitled "Legend of Cao Cao". It's flooding every search. Gamer Junkie12:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Take as long as you want, mate. If it's a hassle, don't worry about it. If it's not, all I need is the rating and a quote from the reviewer stating a pro and a con. Like I said, don't go out of your way if you're already busy. I'll get cracking on the second game. Gamer Junkie12:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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