User talk:Tigraan/Archive 3

This is an archive of past discussions with User:Tigraan. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Thought about the template about archived Teahouse threads

Hi Tigraan, I saw your question about the template placed by Muninnbot when a Teahouse thread is archived. One thing I have only become aware of pretty recently is that it can be hard to spot information that's "hidden" in the middle of a paragraph, especially if the paragraph contains several pieces of information. (I've learnt that it is a really bad idea to send a welcome email to new students at a distance course, and place the Zoom link or the information about the time for the first seminar inside even a short paragraph!) This is not going to be an issue for all readers, but making information more visible won't hurt the people who would have seen it anyway :-)

The Muninnbot template says "Hi [NAME]! The thread you created at the Wikipedia:Teahouse, "[THREAD]", has been archived because there was no discussion for a few days (usually at least two days, and sometimes four or more). You can still find the archived discussion here. If you have any additional questions that weren't answered then, please feel free to create a new thread." I'd suggest splitting this para, so that "You can still find the archived discussion here" is placed on a separate line. Maybe also remove "(usually at least two days, and sometimes four or more)"? It is relevant information, but maybe it is not that important to include it there? And finally, "here" is such a short word, the link might not stand out enough – maybe bold that text?

Just some thoughts. Muninnbot is such as lovely name for a bot that is concerned with remembering where information is! :-) Best, --bonadea contributions talk 15:15, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

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Link a11y

I noticed that one of the links in my talk page says "here", and sometime during the year I learned that "click here" is bad (google).

(Based on newer contributions nowadays it's "click this link" but same thing)

An example of a link not using "click here" or similar is "you can create a new thread" (again from the same message). I'm not sure how to rephrase the first one to introduce the link (maybe If you want you can [create a new discussion]?), but maybe it doesn't need introducing [Create a new discussion].  AltoStev (talk) 16:40, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks AltoStev. Your Google link does not give anything useful on the first two pages for me, but from your title I assume you are talking about accessibility issues for screen readers. I will try to reword it somehow. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 10:21, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Bots Newsletter, December 2021

Bots Newsletter, December 2021

Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. Updates on reimplementing the Graph extension, which will be known as the Chart extension, can be found on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. BRFA activity by month Welcome to the eighth issue of the English Wikipedia's Bots Newsletter, your source for all things bot. Maintainers disappeared to parts unknown... bots awakening from the slumber of æons... hundreds of thousands of short descriptions... these stories, and more, are brought to you by Wikipedia's most distinguished newsletter about bots. Our last issue was in August 2019, so there's quite a bit of catching up to do. Due to the vast quantity of things that have happened, the next few issues will only cover a few months at a time. This month, we'll go from September 2019 through the end of the year. I won't bore you with further introductions — instead, I'll bore you with a newsletter about bots. Overall Between September and December 2019, there were 33 BRFAs. Of these, Y 25 were approved, and 8 were unsuccessful (N2 3 denied, ? 3 withdrawn, and 2 expired). September 2019 Look! It's moving. It's alive. It's alive... It's alive, it's moving, it's alive, it's alive, it's alive, it's alive, IT'S ALIVE! Y Monkbot 16, DannyS712 bot 60, Ahechtbot 6, PearBOT 3, Qbugbot 3 · N2 DannyS712 bot 5, PkbwcgsBot 24 · ? DannyS712 bot 61, TheSandBot 4 TParis goes away, UTRSBot goes kaput: Beeblebrox noted that the bot for maintaining on-wiki records of UTRS appeals stopped working a while ago. TParis, the semi-retired user who had previously run it, said they were "unlikely to return to actively editing Wikipedia", and the bot had been vanquished by trolls submitting bogus UTRS requests on behalf of real blocked users. While OAuth was a potential fix, neither maintainer had time to implement it. TParis offered to access to the UTRS WMFLabs account to any admin identified with the WMF: "I miss you guys a whole lot [...] but I've also moved on with my life. Good luck, let me know how I can help". Ultimately, SQL ended up in charge. Some progress was made, and the bot continued to work another couple months — but as of press time, UTRSBot has not edited since November 2019. Article-measuring contest resumed: The list of Wikipedians by article count, which had lain dead for several years, was triumphantly resurrected by GreenC following a bot request. October 2019 Y OAbot 3, DannyS712 bot 47, Pathbot 2, PearBOT 2, DannyS712 bot 59, DannyS712 bot 62, HasteurBot 14, PearBOT 4, WOSlinkerBot 4, MilHistBot 5 Curb Safe Charmer adopts reFill: TAnthony pointed out that reFill 2's bug reports were going unanswered; creator Zhaofeng Li had retired from Wikipedia, and a maintainer was needed. As of June 2021, Curb Safe Charmer had taken up the mantle, saying: "Not that I have all the skills needed but better me than nobody! 'Maintainer' might be too strong a term though. Volunteers welcome!" November 2019 Now you're thinking with portals. Y BHGbot 4, YiFeiBot 2, DannyS712 bot III 64 · ? PearBOT Old bots do new tricks: DannyS712 bot III 64 prowled redirects, YiFeiBot 2 archived GoCE requests, and BHGbot 4 removed links to portals deleted at MfD (until its authorization was revoked in January at operator BrownHairedGirl's request). December 2019 Y DemonDays64 Bot, DannyS712 bot III 66, Bot1058 6, Monkbot 15, MilHistBot 6, PearBOT 5, DannyS712 bot IV 65 · N2 SportsStatsBot · Xinbenlv bot, SteveBot 8 Redirects to be autopatrolled: A RfC took place at WP:NPP, closing with unanimous consensus that new redirects should be automatically marked as patrolled by bot. DannyS712 wasted no time, and submitted DannyS712 bot III 66 the next day; it passed two days after that. 200,000 bios get short descs: Along a similar vein, Bot1058 6 was approved to remove disambiguation pages from Category:Monitored short pages and a new bot (DemonDays64 Bot) changed lots of http links to https using JavaScript Wiki Browser. One particularly neat task, PearBOT 5, automatically generated short descriptions for more than 200,000 biographies. In the next issue of Bots Newsletter: What's next for our intrepid band of coders, maintainers and approvers? What happens when two bots want to clerk the same page? What happens when an adminbot goes hog wild? Will reFill ever get fixed? What's up with ListeriaBot, anyway? Python 3.4 deprecation? In my PyWikiBot? (It's more likely than you think!) These questions will be answered — and new questions raised — by the January 2022 Bots Newsletter. Tune in, or miss out! Signing off... jp×g 04:29, 10 December 2021 (UTC) (You can subscribe or unsubscribe from future newsletters by adding or removing your name from this list.)

Muninn Bot

Hi, I don't know if it is right to ask this, but could I possibly have the source code of your bot. I mean is it open source? If not, just ignore this request of mine. ― Itcouldbepossible^Talk 08:10, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

• No problem. It is on gitlab (as the page User:Muninnbot indicates). GPL license so you need to copyleft whatever modifications you distribute, if that is a problem leave me a note and I might switch it to a more permissive license (MIT ?). Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 09:36, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

  @Tigraan Yeah, you can also put it up at GitHub. ― Itcouldbepossible^Talk 15:16, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I could, but I will not. I pulled it from GitHub when Microsoft acquired the company, and considering the GitHub Copilot debacle I am happy to have done so. Even if they ultimately solve the copyvio problems, that is the 3E strategy all over again (make it impossible to be a modern developer without using MS tools constructed from the unpaid labor of others). Sure they can crawl gitlab too, but no need to make it easy for them. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 10:07, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: Maths, science, and technology request for comment

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Your thread has been archived

Hi Tigraan! The thread you created at the Wikipedia:Teahouse, Muninnbot test numero uno, has been archived because there was no discussion for a few days. You can still read the archived discussion. If you have follow-up questions, please create a new thread. See also the help page about the archival process. The archival was done by Lowercase sigmabot III, and this notification was delivered by Muninnbot, both automated accounts. You can opt out of future notifications by placing {{bots|deny=Muninnbot}} on top of the current page (your user talk page). Muninnbot (talk) 19:01, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Your thread has been archived

Hi Tigraan! The thread you created at the Wikipedia:Teahouse, Muninnbot test 2, has been archived because there was no discussion for a few days. You can still read the archived discussion. If you have follow-up questions, please create a new thread. See also the help page about the archival process. The archival was done by Lowercase sigmabot III, and this notification was delivered by Muninnbot, both automated accounts. You can opt out of future notifications by placing {{bots|deny=Muninnbot}} on top of the current page (your user talk page). Muninnbot (talk) 19:02, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Muninn Bot Notification

Hi, I am ICBP. I had posted two question at the Teahouse which has been archived. This is the first one and the second one is is this. But however you bot did not leave me a archival notification that it always does. Though I am a little experienced now and I can find my archived discussions, but can you guess why your bot did not give me any notification. The interesting part is that, it gave me a notification for the Diffs archival, but it missed the next two. However, he again gave the archival notification for Tip of the Day, Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive_1136#ClueBot III vs lowercase sigmabot III and so forth. So it missed the two in between. Can you guess why? Itcouldbepossible^Talk 03:57, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I typed a lot of words below but they can be summarized as "I do not know".

My initial thought was that users are notified only once per archival event to avoid notification spam (in this case the edit that created the archive archived three of your threads, and you were notified only of the first). I vividly recall thinking of doing that, but reading the source code again, I clearly did not code it (at least not on purpose), so I believe it qualifies as a bug.

I do not see any good reason why the threads would have been skipped. I thought maybe this was because you have spaces in the titles which somehow made the title parser choke, but then the diffs thread has spaces too and notification worked fine. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 10:40, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Oh, yes, it is really confusing. But your first reason also does not match. I had asked many questions at the Teahouse, and each of them got archived at Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1136, and for each of them I got a notification, which I had archived to User:Itcouldbepossible/Archived Threads. The first one was called "Diffs" and the last archive was "Reply Link". I had asked 9 questions at the Teahouse and all of them got archived. But I only got notifications for 7. I got notifications for every thing on the same archive, except for this and this. So, if the bot can give 7 notifications, and that is not spamming, then why did not it give the two notifications more? Would it have made a really big difference.

See, I would not have disturbed you like this, but I have to, because I wanted to keep a track of all my Teahouse questions, and so I was archiving all the Teahouse notifications, but if the bot misses some notifications, then it is really difficult to find the archives, isn't it? Now, how I have to manually make the archive notification, and add it to the page. Could you try and fix this problem. Thanks. Itcouldbepossible^Talk 05:49, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@Itcouldbepossible: OK, there is a bit to unpack here.

I believed Muninnbot might operate on a "one notification max per day" basis, which explains your symptoms (the two un-notified threads come later on the same archival day as another one). However, I am not quite sure what causes that behavior, it might be hidden behind the Pywikibot framework. I can therefore not "fix" it without knowing what to change, and even if I knew, I might elect to not "fix" it because "one notification per day" is a reasonable mode of operation. When/if I know what to change, and if it is simple enough, I might add a dirty hack so that for you (and you only) the bot notifies multiple times per day.

However, I left a couple of test threads which got archived, but I did not get notified for either of them. So my belief of "one notification per day" is clearly incorrect. I will have to investigate this, but as long as the bot is not utterly broken (and I would argue that missing some notifications is not too disruptive), I cannot promise I will hurry.

If you disagree with my assessment and think something ought to be done soon, you have basically two options: (1) find out where the problem is in the code and tell me so I can easily fix it; (2) go complain to the relevant authorities that the bot does not operate correctly, which is either the Teahouse community (to argue that there is consensus against the "one notification max per day" setting) or the the bot noticeboard (to argue that the bot operates without consensus). Option 2 will not get the bot fixed, of course, but it might put more pressure on me to solve what I frankly see as a minor issue if enough people agree with you.

In the meantime, to track your questions to the Teahouse, you can use this tool which gives you all your past edits at the TH. I understand that a targeted link to the archived question would be better, but bot debugging is not easy.

Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 14:42, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Ok, not complaining anything. Your bot is doing superb work. But your justification does not match. (the two un-notified threads come later on the same archival day as another one) There were other questions by me, which came much later than those two. For example Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1136#Reply Link and Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1136#Twinkle Citation Helper. I got notified for both of them. But not the two in between. There is no way to complain about your bot, I was just bringing up the problem to you, thats all. Moreover, I am viewing the code, but could you please specify the actual code? Is it in the scripts folder, and titled as teahouse_archival_bot.py?

The tool that you gave me is good, but it gives all my Teahouse edits, from which I can search for the keyword "new section", and which makes my task really easy. Then, I can create artificial archives from your wiki markup. So thanks for the code. And thanks..don't hurry or trouble yourself. You can change the code later. Itcouldbepossible^Talk 06:08, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Whoa! I got freaked out. I saw that I had created 60 threads at the Teahouse, and my archive list only contains 38. I did not notice that the rest had got missing. Now, I have to create the artificial ones. Itcouldbepossible^Talk 06:14, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

About https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arfius_Al-din

Hello, greetings! So, you are asking the personal interest or relationship with the person Arfius Al-din. There are no personal interest and relationship with me, either you believe for not, but, he is noticeable person via media coverage and social influence. That's why I was created the page for him. But, honestly you refer two articles which content is similar and so the title. There are many free website who just auto publishing news form collecting the other website to run their business and so on. I'm not saying the person is top off the world but he is popular in his country as a musician but, it's up to wiki what will be the decision. But, as far as I know there need more effort to put an asian person specially into Middle East personality into wiki rather then the eastern part. Wherever, the decision is I highly appreciate but the reality is the reality. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dadu1212 (talk • contribs) 15:13, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

interaction with other editors section edits

The interactions with other editors section of your page looks, at least in my browser, a little disorganized would you be interested in allowing me to reorganize that section into an about me box? I am new to editing on wikipedia and am looking for small projects that I can learn while I go. I am also interested in learning how to manipulate box, table and image place within the page specifically when they become bunched up and no longer sit flush with the left side of the page. Thank You for your help. Godspeed18 (talk) 18:23, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

• @Godspeed18: I would suggest you experiment in a dedicated page (you can create User:Godspeed18/sandbox for instance). You can absolutely copy-paste whatever code you want from my user / user talk pages (or anything from anyone’s page for that matter). If the result turns out to be great, let me know, I would be happy to copy it (I mean, why would I refuse free work!). But please do not directly edit my user page. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 10:29, 13 January 2022 (UTC) *@Tigraan:Thank you for the suggestion. You are welcome to check out my sandbox page to check out the minor change I made to make your page more aesthetic to my eye. I appreciate the opportunity to learn something new. Godspeed18 (talk) 05:24, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Biased edits

You mentioned it on my talk page. I think I can discern a pro-India bias from your edits. I didn't make many edits. So, I want to know which edits are biased? --Knight Skywalker (talk) 10:59, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

• @Knight Skywalker: in the same edit, as far as I can tell you did not breach any guideline. But if you ask: here’s one edit adding a borderline WP:TRIVIA factoid.

Please do not argue the merits of that edit with me. I was once pulled into a very minor dispute on a subject tangentially related to Israel-Palestine stuff and it was hell. I have no intention to do that again. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 12:41, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: Maths, science, and technology request for comment

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Muninnbot Teahouse template

Hello Tigraan! I have a question about your bot's Teahouse template. Should we change it so it says that the thread was archived because there was no discussion for 2-3 days, or should we just keep it how it is now with the vague term "a few"? ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 19:55, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@Blaze Wolf: It is intentionally vague, because the archival settings might be tuned up or down depending on the volume of queries. Ideally Muninnbot would read the archival settings from the page but that would be quite some work. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 08:58, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Alright sounds good. So leave it as it is? ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 14:02, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I guess so. That being said, I will not revert if you decide to edit the template (User:Muninnbot/Teahouse_archival_notification). Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 09:37, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

I have no reason to edit since currently it's vagueness is just fine. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 14:11, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Munninbot on Help Desk

I saw a Help Desk question about asking a bot to do a task, and I had been wondering how to create a bot, which I wouldn't be able to do myself.

For years, a bot, in a recent case Munninbot, has notified people when a Teahouse question was archived. For several years now I have been informing people manually when a Help Desk question was archived, if the person who asked the question did not receive a ping (which I don't think can be done with IPs) or a talk page notification for the original response, or the person did not come back to respond to any responses, unless the person was a veteran who would know how to see the response.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:23, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

• @Vchimpanzee: It would be quite easy to set up Muninnbot to run on the Help Desk as well. However, that would need consensus from the local community, most likely through a post on the talk page. I proposed as much on the Help Desk talk page back in 2018, but received no replies. Feel free to ask again and I will reply to any activity. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 09:52, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, it's easy enough to do what I do, as it turns out. I was three months behind but I'm nearly caught up now.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 22:34, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

@Vchimpanzee: I admire your work ethic but frankly anything that could be done by a bot should be done by a bot. I will try my luck again on the talk page. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 09:52, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

It's usually only three or four notifications per archive page these days and, frequently, I have the opportunity to add further information. Sometimes a question didn't get answered and I know the answer or know where to point the person.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 16:56, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Bots Newsletter, January 2022

Bots Newsletter, January 2022

Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. Updates on reimplementing the Graph extension, which will be known as the Chart extension, can be found on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. BRFA activity by month Welcome to the ninth issue of the English Wikipedia's Bots Newsletter, your source for all things bot. Vicious bot-on-bot edit warring... superseded tasks... policy proposals... these stories, and more, are brought to you by Wikipedia's most distinguished newsletter about bots. After a long hiatus between August 2019 and December 2021, there's quite a bit of ground to cover. Due to the vastness, I decided in December to split the coverage up into a few installments that covered six months each. Some people thought this was a good idea, since covering an entire year in a single issue would make it unmanageably large. Others thought this was stupid, since they were getting talk page messages about crap from almost three years ago. Ultimately, the question of whether each issue covers six months or a year is only relevant for a couple more of them, and then the problem will be behind us forever. Of course, you can also look on the bright side – we are making progress, and this issue will only be about crap from almost two years ago. Today we will pick up where we left off in December, and go through the first half of 2020. Overall In the first half of 2020, there were 71 BRFAs. Of these, Y 59 were approved, and 12 were unsuccessful (with N2 8 denied, ? 2 withdrawn, and 2 expired). January 2020 Yeah, you're not gonna be able to get away with this anymore. Y ST47Bot, Seppi333Bot, Qbugbot 4 · N2 PkbwcgsBot 25, PkbwcgsBot 26 A new Pywikibot release dropped support for Python 3.4, and it was expected that support for Python 2.7 would be removed in coming updates. Toolforge itself planned to drop Python 2 support in 2022. Two new bots dropped in January 2020: ST47Bot, the successor to STBot, and Seppi333Bot, whose task was to perform a weekly update of four "massive" wikitables for WikiProject Molecular Biology. Cydebot, an adminbot operated by Cyde since 2006, was blocked after going berserk on categories that hadn't yet been CfD'd. February 2020 Speaking of WikiProject Molecular Biology, Listeria went wild in February Y AnomieBOT 78, Cewbot 2, DannyS712 bot 67, DannyS712 bot III 63, PearBOT 6, DemonDays64 Bot 2 · N2 PearBOT On February 1, some concerns were raised about ListeriaBot performing "nonsense" edits. Semi-active operator Magnus Manske (who originally coded the Phase II software|precursor of MediaWiki) was pinged. Meanwhile, the bot was temporarily blocked for several hours until the issue was diagnosed and resolved. On February 18, ST47Bot got into a tussle with Amalthea (bot), and had to be partially-blocked from Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Cases/Overview. March 2020 Y MajavahBot, SDZeroBot, TheSandBot 6, TheSandBot 7, Bitbotje, FACBot 6, TheSandBot 8, Qbugbot 5, Cewbot 3, SDZeroBot 2, PrimeBOT 31, WikiCleanerBot 12 · AntiCompositeBot In March, a long discussion was started at Wikipedia talk:Bot policy by Skdb about the troubling trend of bots "expiring" without explanation after their owners became inactive. This can happen for a variety of reasons -- API changes break code, hosting providers' software updates break code, hosting accounts lapse, software changes make bots' edits unnecessary, and policy changes make bots' edits unwanted. The most promising solution seemed to be Toolforge hosting (although it has some problems of its own, like the occasional necessity of refactoring code). Some of the twelve bot tasks approved this month were TheSandBot 6 (removing blocked users from Category:Wikipedia usernames with possible policy issues), and TheSandBot 7 (removing unblocked users from Category:Wikipedians who are indefinitely blocked for promotional user names). SDZeroBot 2 was approved to refine geographic stub tags. New bots approved this month were MajavahBot (to patrol WP:EFFPR), SDZeroBot (to merge stub tags), and Bitbotje (fixing DISPLAYTITLE modifications, DEFAULTSORT errors and broken behavior switches in draftspace). April 2020 Listeria being examined Y TheSandBot 9, BHGbot 5, DannyS712 bot 69, SDZeroBot 3, ST47ProxyBot, WugBot 4, SDZeroBot 4, DatBot 10, WikiCleanerBot 11, WikiCleanerBot 13, WikiCleanerBot 14, AntiCompositeBot 2, Cewbot 4 · N2 DaedanBot 1 · Creffbot A discussion on the bot noticeboard, "Re-examination of ListeriaBot", was started by Barkeep49, who pointed out repeated operation outside the scope of its BRFA (i.e. editing pages in mainspace, and adding non-free images to others). Some said it was doing good work, and others said it was operating beyond its remit. It was blocked on April 10; the next day it was unblocked, reblocked from article space, reblocked "for specified non-editing actions", unblocked, and indeffed. The next week, several safeguards were implemented in its code by Magnus; the bot was allowed to roam free once more on April 18. ST47ProxyBot joined the stable in April, after a BRFA started in December was finally completed. As an adminbot, it was authorized to block IP addresses belonging to open proxies, public VPN services, and web hosts. New tasks approved for existing bots included BHGbot 5 (diffusing categories), TheSandBot 9 (taking over some tasks from the inactive RonBot), and WugBot 4 (updating data at {{Interactive COVID-19 maps}}). Also, DatBot 10 was approved to scale down non-free SVGs — I didn't even know that was a thing. A discussion at Wikipedia talk:Bot policy was started by Thryduulf about whether WP:BOTCOMM should explicitly specify that bot operators must be responsive to concerns raised on English Wikipedia specifically (as opposed to Phabricator, SourceForge, Toolforge, et cetera). Eventually, the policy was amended to its current form: Issues and enquiries are typically expected to be handled on the English Wikipedia. Pages reachable via unified login, like a talk page at Commons or at Italian Wikipedia could also be acceptable [...] External sites like Phabricator or GitHub (which require separate registration or do not allow for IP comments) and email (which can compromise anonymity) can supplement on-wiki communication, but do not replace it. May 2020 We heard you like bots, so we made a bot that reports the status of your bots, so now you can use bots while you use bots Y MajavahBot 3, DannyS712 bot 70, CitationCleanerBot 5, Dreamy Jazz Bot 4, QEDKbot, William Avery Bot 2, DannyS712 bot 68, PrimeBOT 32, TheSandBot 10, Bot1058 7, BHGbot 6, EaglesBot 2, Cewbot 5, WikiCleanerBot 17 · N2 MDanielsBot, PhuzBot 3, Gedimon · ? PearBOT 7 MajavahBot 3, an impressively meta bot task, was approved this month for maintaining a list of bots running on the English Wikipedia. The page, located at User:MajavahBot/Bot status report, is updated every 24 hours; it contains a list of all accounts with the bot flag, as well as their operator, edit count, last activity date, last edit date, last logged action date, user groups and block status. Other approvals for this month were William Avery Bot 2 (processing redirects in {{R from scientific name}}), DannyS712 bot 68 (allowing users to schedule bot reminders for themselves), TheSandBot 10 (removing blocked/locked users from Category:User talk pages with conflict of interest notices), Bot1058 7 (updating Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests/Permalink), Dreamy Jazz Bot 4 (adding {{WikiProject Biography|living=no}} to talk pages where their associated article is in a year of death category), and QEDKbot (deleting and nominating empty categories). General syntax fixing tasks were approved for DannyS712 bot 70, CitationCleanerBot 5, PrimeBOT 32, BHGbot 6, Cewbot 5, and EaglesBot 2, as well as WikiCleanerBot 15, 16, and 17. Seven bots who fell below activity requirements (with neither the bots nor their operators having any edits or logged actions in two years) had their bot flags removed. They were NekoBot, Robert SkyBot, DASHBotAV, VoxelBot, JackieBot, ReferenceBot, and CensusBot. On May 12, EmausBot was blocked. June 2020 A partial block averted at the eleventh hour for the robot that makes Legos Y QEDKbot 2, AnomieBOT 79, WOSlinkerBot 6, Yapperbot 2, Yapperbot, AnomieBOT 80, Dreamy Jazz Bot 5, WikiCleanerBot 18, HasteurBot 15, MusikBot II 4, NoSandboxesHere · N2 RedWarn · ? Seppi333Bot 2 In July 2017, Headbomb made a proposal that a section of the Wikipedia:Dashboard be devoted to bots and technical issues. In November 2019, Lua code was written superseding Legobot's tasks on that page, and operator Legoktm was asked to stop them so that the new code could be deployed. After no response to pings, a partial-block of Legobot for the dashboard was proposed. Some months later, on June 16, Headbomb said: "A full block serves nothing. A partial block solves all current issues [...] Just fucking do it. It's been 3 years now." The next day, however, Legoktm disabled the task, and the dashboard was successfully refactored. On June 7, RexxS blocked Citation bot for disruptive editing, saying it was "still removing links after request to stop". A couple weeks later, a discussion on the bots noticeboard was opened, saying "it is a widely-used and useful bot, but it has one of the longest block logs for any recently-operating bot on Wikipedia". While its last BRFA approval was in 2011, its code and functionality had changed dramatically since then, and AntiCompositeNumber requested that BAG require a new BRFA. Maintainer AManWithNoPlan responded that most blocks were from years ago (when it lacked a proper test suite), and problems since then had mostly been one-off errors (like a June 2019 incident in which a LTA had "weaponized" the bot to harass editors). David Tornheim opened a discussion about whether bots based on closed-source code should be permitted, and proposed that they not. He cited a recent case in which a maintainer had said "I can only suppose that the code that is available on GitHub is not the actual code that was running on [the bot]". Some disagreed: Naypta said that "I like free software as much as the next person, and I strongly believe that bot operators should make their bot code public, but I don't think it should be that they must do so". Two new bots had their first BRFAs approved: Yapperbot, to replace Legobot for handling the Feedback Request Service, and NoSandboxesHere, to remove {{user sandbox}} from articles in draftspace using Category:Non-userspace pages using User sandbox. Conclusion What's next for our intrepid band of coders, maintainers and approvers? Will Citation bot ever be set free to roam the project? What's the deal with all those book links that InternetArchiveBot is adding to articles? Should we keep using Gerrit for MediaWiki? What if we had a day for bots to make cosmetic edits? These questions will be answered — and new questions raised — by the February 2022 Bots Newsletter. Tune in, or miss out! Signing off... jp×g 23:22, 31 January 2022 (UTC) (You can subscribe or unsubscribe from future newsletters by adding or removing your name from this list.)

RfC 53 founders

Thanks for the clarifications. I understand your points with a few uncertainties. The issue, of course, is whether 53 signers are considered Founding Fathers, so I'll give that a try as the statement for the RfC. Since the crux of that is what I consider to be a lack of sources per WP:VER, should this be mentioned in the summary and if so, how?

I'm also unsure of what can be done with the comments @User:Randy Kryn has already entered. If I change what precedes them, the paragraphs he's pasted in will appear puzzling, and I may be attacked for some other impropriety, which is also bound to happen if I remove them. Would it be better/proper, then, to simply pull the entire RfC and post a new one? Your suggestion?

I'm alerting Randy to this because we might be able to agree on starting with a fresh slate/page on the RfC, though that's uncertain as well considering his accusation that I'm "forum shopping". He's posted this in three places and IMO it amounts to a personal attack. I believe I did the right thing in opening a new RfC given the stalemate/lack of response in the original one and then the pointlessness of any further debate between us in regards to the other pages he's changed.

That's made this all extremely complicated, leaving no clear path for resolution. I've been editing here for 15 years and have never had a dispute beyond minor points, so the processes are completely new to me. Allreet (talk) 16:00, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

The two RfC questions are the most important, particularly how to re-do the current one or whether to simply start a new one. Allreet (talk) 16:35, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

You now have 2 RfC's and about 10 discussion pages going (haven't counted) which all come down to one question: "Can the name of an academic paper provide the paper's premise?" Eleven words. I'll agree to those words for an RfC. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:12, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

I would appreciate if you both could find another place than my talk page if you need to discuss that issue. I have already given my opinion on the RfC wording (short version: ask the question about whether the 53 are founders or not, not a question about sources), and I do not think wise to devote any more of my time of that issue. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 14:44, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Your ping on Talk:Moderna

Hi, I just wanted to let you know that the ping you added to the beginning of the RfC did not go through. The ping template requires a signature to be added in the same section as the ping in order for the ping to transmit. Because your edit added a new heading ("Discussion") between the ping template and your signature, the pings were not successful. Just letting you know in case you want to re-ping anyone.

I have not had a chance to look at the edit you proposed in the RfC yet, but I will try to do so sometime this weekend. Thanks. Aoi (青い) (talk) 20:16, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Features for new users coming soon (and mentors, like you, wanted!)

Hello Tigraan. (I know you will already have picked up on what follows, but I didn't want to leave you off this post I'm sending to all active TH hosts)...

As you're currently listed as a host at the Teahouse, I wanted to make sure you're aware of the imminent rollout of new Growth Team Features which every new account will be getting by default. Each users will soon see a new 'Homepage' tab next to their User page. It contains two main elements which might impact on your involvement - and you'd be welcome to get involved and help out directly with one of them.

• Firstly, they will be offered a range of 'suggested edits', and encouraged to make simple improvements to pages that interest them. (Being aware of this feature would be helpful for all Teahouse hosts if you're likely to offer advice on tasks for them to start out doing.)
• There's also a 'Your impact' box to show them how many people have seen the pages they've just edited.
• Finally, each new user is randomly assigned a 'mentor' from a list of friendly, experienced editors, like yourself. If they get stuck, they can ask a question directly to them via a Your mentor box, and hopefully get a swift, friendly answer from that mentor. Currently, this feature is given to 2% of new users, but it's set to increase to around 10% in the very near future.

To spread the load on our current list of around 65 mentors, I'm reaching out to ask if you'd like to help out and sign up as one? The workload is relatively small; User Panini! reports receiving four questions a month, on average, all of which were simple ones of the type we already get at the Teahouse and elsewhere, and I've had just the one in the last 3 weeks. To view a list of every question asked of all mentors over the last 14 days, click here.

If becoming a mentor and being available to help new users on their first few days here interests you - just as you already do at the Teahouse - then please consider signing up at Growth Team features/Mentor list. Existing users can already 'opt-in' to seeing the Newcomer Homepage features via their Preferences.

Thank you! Nick Moyes (talk) 10:20, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

ANI

I've mentioned you at ANI,. concerning Surge Of Reason's behavior. Acroterion (talk) 00:49, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

A bot award for you!

	Bot award
	Muninbot is a great bot that does a helpful function. The bot deserves an award. Commander0034 (talk) 14:17, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Fuad Hamza

I thought that the topic about his nationality was settled. There is a source about his Palestinian origin, what's the problem with it? Can any Palestinian not live in Abey? --Egeymi (talk) 11:24, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Why did you delete the source giving this information? What do you want?--Egeymi (talk) 11:27, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

@Egeymi: have you read that post from December on the talk page? I explain the reasons why I think the Palestinian origin source is dubious, and why I could not verify the Abey claim.

Please answer on the talk page, so that other editors may more easily find the discussion. (If you do not reply within a couple of days, I intend to re-revert your revert.) Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 10:12, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Don't you see the newly inserted sources. The question remains the same; what you want? --Egeymi (talk) 10:25, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

@Egeymi: Thank you for adding sources (which I indeed did not see, as you added them after my revert). Those are enough to cite "Palestinian". (Best practice would still be to provide the exact quote and translation from the Arabic sources, per WP:NONENG - I cannot read Arabic so I had to run those through Google Translate.)

However, I am still confused about the birth in Abey. The 1936 Times source says Fuad Bey [Hamza] is a native Palestinian from Ramallah. A plain reading of that sentence indicates that he himself was born in Ramallah (which looking at a map is about 300km from Abey), not that his family was from Ramallah and he was born elsewhere as you wrote. If reliable sources give contradictory information about his birth/ethnicity/whatever, we should report the disagreement, not write down what we think is likely.

(As to "what I want": an article with proper citations on the questions of nationality/ethnicity etc., that can be read without a master’s thesis in the history of the region.) Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 11:03, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Muninnbot: Digging Teahouse archive links failure

Muninnbot's task "Digging Teahouse archive links" failed to run per the configuration specified at Wikipedia:Bot activity monitor/Configurations. Detected only 0 edits in the last 5 days, whereas at least 1 was expected. If/when the issue is fixed, please change the section title (e.g. append " - Fixed") or remove this section completely. When that is done, this notice will be reposted if the bot task is still broken or is re-broken. If your bot is behaving as expected, then you may want to modify the task configuration instead. Or to unsubscribe from bot failure notifications, remove the |notify= parameter from the {{/task}} template. Thanks! – SDZeroBot (talk) 19:20, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Completing Wiki's Template: Non-free use rationale logo/doc and uploading image Wiki file: RAAF25SQNCrestFromRAAFBrandManager15Feb22.png

Hi Tigran Thanks for your 6 April response.

I am not confident the RAAF Brand Manager would agree to provide an open free use licence as per your option 1.

If I continue with trying option 2 (ie submitting the Non-free use rationale logo/doc template) by making the edits you suggest in 1, 2 and 3 of your response, will that be enough to complete the template successfully?

If the template is acceptably completed, how do I upload the image provided to me by the RAAF Brand Manager so it will not be “speedily deleted” again? Do I somehow attached it to the Non-free use rationale logo/doc template or do I have to complete a separate upload template? Thanks. Shellac41 (talk) 08:12, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

• @Shellac41: Yes, you should be able to reupload File:RAAF25SQNCrestFromRAAFBrandManager15Feb22.png if you fill the non-free image use template properly. At Special:Upload, make sure to select Non-free / fair use... > Logo as the license type, and then you will need to detail the "page used", "rationale" etc. sections. I guess that the first time around, you selected the copyright holder gave me permission to use this work only in Wikipedia articles, which listed it immediately for speedy-deletion under criterion WP:F3, and the speedy-deletion was performed by Fastily. (I am not sure why the form lets you upload a file to immediately send it to speedy deletion, rather than block you from uploading it, to be honest.)

However, as indicated, the image may need to be reduced in resolution compared to the file you got from the RAAF. Don’t worry about doing that yourself, just upload it; the above "logo" license information should tag the file and a bot (automated program) will come along and downgrade the resolution if needed.

You will also need to include the file into an article fairly quickly (otherwise a bot will detect that a fair-use file is not used in any articles and delete it, too). Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 10:47, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks again Tigraan. I will try to put your advice into effect but have to admit as a 78 year old I'm not too good on fully understanding or following Wiki's instructions, aids and jargon etc. Regards, Shellac41 Shellac41 (talk) 23:53, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

New page reviewer granted

Hi Tigraan. Your account has been added to the "New page reviewers" user group. Please check back at WP:PERM in case your user right is time limited or probationary. This user group allows you to review new pages through the Curation system and mark them as patrolled, tag them for maintenance issues, or nominate them for deletion. The list of articles awaiting review is located at the New Pages Feed. New page reviewing is vital to maintaining the integrity of the encyclopedia. If you have not already done so, you must read the tutorial at New Pages Review, the linked guides and essays, and fully understand the deletion policy. If you need any help or want to discuss the process, you are welcome to use the new page reviewer talk page. In addition, please remember:

• Be nice to new editors. They are usually not aware that they are doing anything wrong. Do make use of the message feature when tagging pages for maintenance so that they are aware.
• You will frequently be asked by users to explain why their page is being deleted. Please be formal and polite in your approach to them – even if they are not.
• If you are not sure what to do with a page, don't review it – just leave it for another reviewer.
• Accuracy is more important than speed. Take your time to patrol each page. Use the message feature to communicate with article creators and offer advice as much as possible.

The reviewer right does not change your status or how you can edit articles. If you no longer want this user right, you also may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. In cases of abuse or persistent inaccuracy of reviewing, or long-term inactivity, the right may be withdrawn at administrator discretion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 23:25, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Bot to notify people they had a response on the Help Desk

I was updating my user page and notice it still said a bot should be created to do what I do. At one point, I remember you telling me about a discussion where the consensus seemed to be against it and I wanted to make clear where I got the information.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:18, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

• @Vchimpanzee: The latest thread (Jan 22) is here, the OP contains a link to the 2018 previous one.

The consensus seems to be "meh, seems useless" (in more polite terms), so not really a strong opposition either, but I would need something more positive before I work on it. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 08:23, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
	For your significant contributions... Keep it going! Volten001 ^☎ 10:30, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

New Page Patrol newsletter June 2022

New Page Review queue June 2022

Hello Tigraan,

Backlog status

At the time of the last newsletter (No.27, May 2022), the backlog was approaching 16,000, having shot up rapidly from 6,000 over the prior two months. The attention the newsletter brought to the backlog sparked a flurry of activity. There was new discussion on process improvements, efforts to invite new editors to participate in NPP increased and more editors requested the NPP user right so they could help, and most importantly, the number of reviews picked up and the backlog decreased, dipping below 14,000[a] at the end of May.

Since then, the news has not been so good. The backlog is basically flat, hovering around 14,200. I wish I could report the number of reviews done and the number of new articles added to the queue. But the available statistics we have are woefully inadequate. The only real number we have is the net queue size.[b]

In the last 30 days, the top 100 reviewers have all made more than 16 patrols (up from 8 last month), and about 70 have averaged one review a day (up from 50 last month).

While there are more people doing more reviews, many of the ~730 with the NPP right are doing little. Most of the reviews are being done by the top 50 or 100 reviewers. They need your help. We appreciate every review done, but please aim to do one a day (on average, or 30 a month).

Backlog drive

A backlog reduction drive, coordinated by buidhe and Zippybonzo, will be held from July 1 to July 31. Sign up here. Barnstars will be awarded.

TIP – New school articles

Many new articles on schools are being created by new users in developing and/or non-English-speaking countries. The authors are probably not even aware of Wikipedia's projects and policy pages. WP:WPSCH/AG has some excellent advice and resources specifically written for these users. Reviewers could consider providing such first-time article creators with a link to it while also mentioning that not all schools pass the GNG and that elementary schools are almost certainly not notable.

Misc

There is a new template available, {{NPP backlog}}, to show the current backlog. You can place it on your user or talk page as a reminder:

Very high unreviewed pages backlog: 12249 articles, as of 08:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC), according to DatBot

There has been significant discussion at WP:VPP recently on NPP-related matters (Draftification, Deletion, Notability, Verifiability, Burden). Proposals that would somewhat ease the burden on NPP aren't gaining much traction, although there are suggestions that the role of NPP be fundamentally changed to focus only on major CSD-type issues.

Reminders

• Consider staying informed on project issues by putting the project discussion page on your watchlist.
• If you have noticed a user with a good understanding of Wikipedia notability and deletion, suggest they help the effort by placing {{subst:NPR invite}} on their talk page.
• If you are no longer very active on Wikipedia or you no longer wish to be part of the New Page Reviewer user group, please consider asking any admin to remove you from the list. This will enable NPP to have a better overview of its performance and what improvements need to be made to the process and its software.
• To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

Notes

1. not including another ~6,000 redirects
2. The number of weekly reviews reported in the NPP feed includes redirects, which are not included in the backlog we primarily track.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:02, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

About the draft I created recently

You told me that i don't care what you have said to add reliable and proper source . Actually, it's not . I am new in English wikipedia, so I'm facing problems in adding references,like what website will be proper to fulfill wiki's criteria. So I'm improving myself day by day and asking your help Baruah ranuj (talk) 18:09, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: Maths, science, and technology request for comment

Your feedback is requested at Talk:Lavender oil on a "Maths, science, and technology" request for comment. Thank you for helping out!
You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of Feedback Request Service subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by removing your name.

Message delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) | Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. | Sent at 19:30, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: Maths, science, and technology request for comment

Your feedback is requested at Talk:Fields Medal on a "Maths, science, and technology" request for comment. Thank you for helping out!
You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of Feedback Request Service subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by removing your name.

Message delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) | Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. | Sent at 21:30, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

NPP July 2022 backlog drive is on!

New Page Patrol | July 2022 Backlog Drive
On 1 July, a one-month backlog drive for New Page Patrol will begin. Barnstars will be awarded based on the number of articles patrolled. Barnstars will also be granted for re-reviewing articles previously reviewed by other patrollers during the drive. Redirect patrolling is not part of the drive. Interested in taking part? Sign up here.
You're receiving this message because you are a new page patroller. To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

(t · c) buidhe 20:26, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

New page reviewer granted

Hi Tigraan. Your account has been added to the "New page reviewers" user group. Please check back at WP:PERM in case your user right is time limited or probationary. This user group allows you to review new pages through the Curation system and mark them as patrolled, tag them for maintenance issues, or nominate them for deletion. The list of articles awaiting review is located at the New Pages Feed. New page reviewing is vital to maintaining the integrity of the encyclopedia. If you have not already done so, you must read the tutorial at New Pages Review, the linked guides and essays, and fully understand the deletion policy. If you need any help or want to discuss the process, you are welcome to use the new page reviewer talk page. In addition, please remember:

• Be nice to new editors. They are usually not aware that they are doing anything wrong. Do make use of the message feature when tagging pages for maintenance so that they are aware.
• You will frequently be asked by users to explain why their page is being deleted. Please be formal and polite in your approach to them – even if they are not.
• If you are not sure what to do with a page, don't review it – just leave it for another reviewer.
• Accuracy is more important than speed. Take your time to patrol each page. Use the message feature to communicate with article creators and offer advice as much as possible.

The reviewer right does not change your status or how you can edit articles. If you no longer want this user right, you also may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. In cases of abuse or persistent inaccuracy of reviewing, or long-term inactivity, the right may be withdrawn at administrator discretion. – Joe (talk) 13:28, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Could you archive my talk page

Could you auto archive or archive my talk page I would greatly appreciate it please. Dwanyewest (talk) 19:09, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

New Page Patrol newsletter August 2022

New Page Review queue August 2022

Hello Tigraan,

Backlog status

After the last newsletter (No.28, June 2022), the backlog declined another 1,000 to 13,000 in the last week of June. Then the July backlog drive began, during which 9,900 articles were reviewed and the backlog fell by 4,500 to just under 8,500 (these numbers illustrate how many new articles regularly flow into the queue). Thanks go to the coordinators Buidhe and Zippybonzo, as well as all the nearly 100 participants. Congratulations to Dr vulpes who led with 880 points. See this page for further details.

Unfortunately, most of the decline happened in the first half of the month, and the backlog has already risen to 9,600. Understandably, it seems many backlog drive participants are taking a break from reviewing and unfortunately, we are not even keeping up with the inflow let alone driving it lower. We need the other 600 reviewers to do more! Please try to do at least one a day.

Coordination

MB and Novem Linguae have taken on some of the coordination tasks. Please let them know if you are interested in helping out. MPGuy2824 will be handling recognition, and will be retroactively awarding the annual barnstars that have not been issued for a few years.

Open letter to the WMF

The Page Curation software needs urgent attention. There are dozens of bug fixes and enhancements that are stalled (listed at Suggested improvements). We have written a letter to be sent to the WMF and we encourage as many patrollers as possible to sign it here. We are also in negotiation with the Board of Trustees to press for assistance. Better software will make the active reviewers we have more productive.

TIP - Reviewing by subject

Reviewers who prefer to patrol new pages by their most familiar subjects can do so from the regularly updated sorted topic list.

New reviewers

The NPP School is being underused. The learning curve for NPP is quite steep, but a detailed and easy-to-read tutorial exists, and the Curation Tool's many features are fully described and illustrated on the updated page here.

Reminders

• Consider staying informed on project issues by putting the project discussion page on your watchlist.
• If you have noticed a user with a good understanding of Wikipedia notability and deletion, suggest they help the effort by placing {{subst:NPR invite}} on their talk page.
• If you are no longer very active on Wikipedia or you no longer wish to be part of the New Page Reviewer user group, please consider asking any admin to remove you from the list. This will enable NPP to have a better overview of its performance and what improvements need to be made to the process and its software.
• To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:25, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

NPP message

Hi Tigraan,

Invitation

For those who may have missed it in our last newsletter, here's a quick reminder to see the letter we have drafted, and if you support it, do please go ahead and sign it. If you already signed, thanks. Also, if you haven't noticed, the backlog has been trending up lately; all reviews are greatly appreciated.

To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Citing diaries

Raymond Walters us my project. Nothing much has been written about him outside the three or four articles I have published, some more scholarly than others. I am concerned when you said don’t cite primary source materials, especially diaries. Most of my research on him stem from his diaries (1925-1960). 50.5.27.203 (talk) 13:18, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

• @Historyprof1959: It is fine to cite the articles you have published, even if those rely primarily on the content of the diaries. However, assuming the diaries are not accessible to the general public, you should not cite directly from them. Even if they are accessible, you should only cite them very sparingly.

That might sound a little weird to you - what’s the point of citing yourself instead of citing directly the material? Well, there are multiple reasons:

1. Sources must be verifiable by readers, and a part of this is that they should be accessible. "Accessible" does not mean "easy to access" - it can be in a print-only journal, it can be behind a paywall, etc., but it must not be an archive or private collection item that only researchers have access to. A scholarly journal or newspaper piece qualifies, a diary probably usually does not.
2. Original research is not allowed on Wikipedia. Repeating stuff that you have published elsewhere is OK (with a citation to that elsewhere, and bearing in mind you should rewrite it to avoid copyright violations); writing new stuff is not. The presumption is that if you published in a newspaper or journal, those venues have a sort of editorial process to ensure a minimum level of quality. (Yes, that process is often broken, but that’s another discussion.) Wikipedia has no such editorial process, and therefore delegates the quality control to others. Imagine that I, a random internet person, want to write that Raymond Walters was world champion of Rubik’s cube solving - the only thing stopping me is that other editors might notice my edit, get suspicious, and remove it when they see there is no source attached.
3. For that reason, secondary sources are preferred to primary sources (see WP:PST for details). Secondary sources have already made the analysis and interpretation required to evaluate the primary sources. I grant you that when the same person has written the secondary source and the Wikipedia article, it’s a bit schizophrenic, but readers can check that what is written in Wikipedia matches the source.

Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 08:54, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

As a heads up

Whenever you're redacting contact information from a highly public page like the Teahouse, it's generally a good idea to also request the revision be revdel'd or suppressed as well after making the redaction so that it can't be restored. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^a little blue Bori 16:56, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Muninnbot: Digging Teahouse archive links failure

Muninnbot's task "Digging Teahouse archive links" failed to run per the configuration specified at Wikipedia:Bot activity monitor/Configurations. Detected only 0 edits in the last 5 days, whereas at least 1 was expected. If/when the issue is fixed, please change the section title (e.g. append " - Fixed") or remove this section completely. When that is done, this notice will be reposted if the bot task is still broken or is re-broken. If your bot is behaving as expected, then you may want to modify the task configuration instead. Or to unsubscribe from bot failure notifications, remove the |notify= parameter from the {{/task}} template. Thanks! – SDZeroBot (talk) 19:20, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

October 2022 New Pages Patrol backlog drive

New Page Patrol | October 2022 backlog drive
On 1 October, a one-month backlog drive for New Page Patrol will begin. Barnstars will be awarded based on the number of articles patrolled and for maintaining a streak throughout the drive. Barnstars will also be awarded for re-reviewing articles. Redirect patrolling is not part of the drive. Sign up here!
You're receiving this message because you are a new page patroller. To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

(t · c) buidhe 21:17, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Draft: Leon Lynch — declined

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Leon_Lynch

Thank you for your acknowledgement of the systemic bias that has limited independent coverage on Leon Lynch. It is heartening to know that some folks at Wikipedia realize this serious problem, which can keep people like Lynch from being represented in this space. He was not o ly the first African American international leader in this one union but also the first to break the color barrier in all major labor unions. And, yes, he had many noteworthy accomplishments in addition to breaking that barrier.

I will try to learn how to better weave in the citations for the article, as indicated. I have also contacted the Steelworkers union and they have indicated they may have someone on staff with experience in this area who can also help guide and support me.

Thank you again for your response.

STTLynch 75.66.168.60 (talk) 22:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• Hello, IP user. If you are still around, please read what I posted at User_talk:Cabrils#Draft:_Leon_Lynch_—_declined about contacting USW for a picture. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 09:54, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

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Draft or Renovate Switzerland

Hi @Tigraan,

I've created the draft of Renovate Switzerland at: Draft:Renovate Switzerland. As you gave me feedback at the Teahouse, I would welcome your thoughts. Do you think it is ready for mainspace? I have collected sources, I believe that a number of them go beyond routine coverage. Thanks, Factfox (talk) 20:27, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

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Problem with Teahouse notification template

I have noticed that not everyone who posts a question in the Teahouse gets notified, so if I see that the person was not notified or pinged, did not respond to the Teahouse response, and is obviously new, I send a notification myself using a template usually sent by User:Muninnbot.

I need someone to come up with a solution for this rare problem I discovered. Please comment [%22_and_end_with_%22%22 here]— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 17:03, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

And I see that won't work. Because, you see, the problem with the template has messed up my link too.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 17:05, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@Vchimpanzee: Muninnbot has been broken for a bit more than a month. The server it was running on was shut down and I am supposed to migrate the tool to another one, but I procrastinated doing that. (No promise about when I will fix it.) Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 13:49, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I wasn't aware, but regardless, I was wondering about a solution for the character that messes up the template.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 17:18, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Abdon Atangana

RE: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Abdon Atangana: Revision history

Wikipedia's notability guideline for academics

“3. The person has been an elected member of a highly selective and prestigious scholarly society or association (e.g., a National Academy of Sciences…”

Abdon Atangana is a member of the African Academy of Sciences

His H-index is 62 Scopus and he is a recognized world leading researcher by citation count[1]

Any possibility of undeleting?

@Ged UK: @Lowellian: @Jbmurray: @Kaihsu:

Ear-phone (talk) 12:43, 16 November 2022 (UTC) Ear-phone (talk) 12:25, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

• @Ear-phone: I might have reverted your edits to their 2015 AfD, but the more relevant discussion is Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Abdon_Atangana_(2nd_nomination). I did not participate in that latter discussion, which closed this month. Coming to my talk page and pinging a bunch of editors is not the proper way to contest its result (the proper way is to go to WP:DRV).

But since you’re here: the h-index argument has been made, and editors have disregarded it because they think it is padded with self-citations to an usual degree. If and when you open a DRV, you will need to be convincing about why that argument is incorrect. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 09:24, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for you response @Tigraan:. Well, certain databases allow exclusion of self citations. Here is his dimensions.ai profile https://app.dimensions.ai/details/entities/publication/author/ur.015424530412.65 It is virtually impossible to pad one's citations to the extent you allude to. He is also chairperson of the African Mathematical Union Commission for Research and Innovations (AMU-CRIMS). Ear-phone (talk) 10:11, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

1. Francke, Robin-Lee. "Meet SA's Professor Abdon Atangana, who has been ranked the world's 2nd-best mathematician". www.iol.co.za. Retrieved 2022-11-16.

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Article

Hey,

First of all thanks again for helping me out previously. I made a few edits to my sandbox and added sourcing... Do you think you can quickly read it and tell me what to improve on? It would be a massive help.

Thanks Patlor643 (talk) 12:19, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

@Patlor643: Well, that is a big step in the right direction, but that was not the first step to take.

As I told you before (but maybe it was not clear enough), the three problems in decreasing order were

1. notability
2. verifiability
3. promotional wording

Those problems should be tackled in that order. You made a lot of efforts to address #2, adding 23 sources to Draft:Lorenzo Patrese that (judging from their titles) give various race results. This took a lot of effort, but the #1 problem is notability.

Notability is attached to a topic, not an article or draft. It should be demonstrated in the draft, but fundamentally, it outside the draft writer’s control. (Which is the point, actually: if we want to have some inclusion criteria, we want it not be easily gamed by people who want to promote themselves and are ready to expend lots of time writing Wikipedia articles.) That means that if the topic is not notable, nothing that you do within Wikipedia can fix that. If so, trying to fix other problems is a waste of your time.

A draft can be perfectly-written but it will never go to mainspace if notability is not met. In fact, many drafts are indeed very good in form but they are doomed by their topic being non-notable.

Here’s the way forward: please go back to my previous post (linked above), read carefully the criteria for notability-showing sources, and try to find three of them. (Why three? see WP:THREE.) If you cannot, drop the idea of a Wikipedia article (for the moment). If you can, show them and we will see if we agree. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 12:17, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Ok thanks,

so, I read the article, but it still leaves me with some doubts.

If there is the need of articles proving I'm "notable", then it should be quite a minor problem as I can find them easily. Is this the case? And if is, should I use them as sources or just put them as external links?

There is also another problem, all the articles or TV interviews I have are mainly in Italian... Is this a problem or are they still usable?

I am actually so sorry for disturbing you and asking to you all this questions... It would be really a massive help.

Thanks, Patlor643 (talk) 17:27, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

@Patlor643: Such sources should ideally be added as inline sources, but dumping them in the external links section is fine for a start. They can be in Italian (see WP:NONENG).

However, if you think you can find them easily, you are probably mistaken about what is required. WP:GNG is the rule (that might seem long, but trust me, that is a very condensed summary of a consensus reached after very, very long discussions).

For instance, I could easily find this or that, but neither is a good source for notability. The first one is an interview; interviews are not independent of the subject, because they contain what the subject chooses to say about themselves. The second one appears superficially to be an article, but it is quite easy to see that its whole content was taken from either a press release or an interview; in either case, its content is not independent. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 09:43, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Ok, thanks Tigraan, I will try an work on that. Patlor643 (talk) 09:58, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

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International pun

Your pun in reply to my question which i posted hier reminds me of one my grandmother told me. When she and some friends visited France after WW1 they stuck out with their accent, so someone asked them “Vous êtes des boches?” She, embarrassed, lied "Non, nous sommes des Autrichiennes.". But the reply came promptly: “Ah, des autre chiennes!” That in our generation there is nothing left of that "hereditary enmity" gives me great hope for peace on earth. ◅ Sebastian 16:21, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

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New Page Patrol – May 2023 Backlog Drive

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Any updates on this? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 12:57, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

@Headbomb: The code is probably fine, the problem is the server migration of Toolforge (yes, the one from six months ago or so).

I imagine setting up the code on the new server is probably one or two hours, but I don’t really want to take care of it without having a full day of available focus (so that I can run a few dry tests, make sure I didn’t mess up the cron, take care of any unexpected stuff etc.). Such days have been in short supply the last two years, but I should be able to do it in late July. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 13:56, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

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Feedback request: Bio draft for pornstar turned sex coach

You previously provided valuable feedback to my request for assistance in the Tearoom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive_1193#Biographical_stub_article_for_a_self-improvement_coach — Preceding unsigned comment added by Venzen (talk • contribs) 05:15, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I have researched as much as I could about reliability of sources and how to establish notability. I would appreciate your comments on the draft of my article, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Venzen — Preceding unsigned comment added by Venzen (talk • contribs) 05:08, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Venzen: I assume this is about User:Venzen/sandbox. I know basically nothing about the porn industry (and have no desire to learn); therefore, I will not be able to evaluate if the sources you give are reliable or not. Sorry. You can still ask for advice at the Teahouse, or at WT:PORNO, and another person might give it a go. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 13:52, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Generative AI and Wikipedia research

Hi Tigraan,

My name is Dr. Tim Koskie and I am a researcher at the Centre for Media Transition (CMT) at the University of Technology Sydney (UTS). We are conducting a study on the implications of content-generating AI systems such as ChatGPT for knowledge integrity on Wikipedia, and are approaching you because you have participated in discussions on this topic on Wikimedia pages.

If you are interested, we would like to invite you to participate in our study. It would involve joining either a focus group discussion or an interview (around 1 hour), in person at Wikimania in Singapore if you are going to be there, or online at a future date. At these sessions we would ask you questions about how you think generative AI will impact Wikipedia, as well as about the kinds of work you do on Wikipedia.

The project is funded by the Wikimedia Research Fund grant programme. You can find out more about the project here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Implications_of_ChatGPT_for_knowledge_integrity_on_Wikipedia If you are interested, let me know and I will forward you some more detailed information on the project. Tbkoskie (talk) 04:15, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Tbkoskie. While I would be interested to join, I try to be as anonymous as reasonably possible on Wikipedia. Therefore:

• I will (by default) refuse to answer any personal question (such as what is my age, gender, previous or current job, etc.). The only exceptions are stuff that I have already shared here (basically: that I am French, live in Paris, and have a doctorate in physics).
• I will not participate via any medium that requires me to disclose my face or my spoken voice (and in particular, I will not be at Wikimania); but I am open to interviewing if I can answer via text messages (via IRC, Slack, or any other reasonable software you might prefer)

I realize those are strong constraints that may be impractical to meet if you have a default setup for other users. If you can accomodate them, feel free to email me the details. Tigraan^Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 14:14, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

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November Articles for creation backlog drive

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Muninnbot: Digging Teahouse archive links failure

Muninnbot's task "Digging Teahouse archive links" failed to run per the configuration specified at Wikipedia:Bot activity monitor/Configurations. Detected only 0 edits in the last 5 days, whereas at least 1 was expected. If/when the issue is fixed, please change the section title (e.g. append " - Fixed") or remove this section completely. When that is done, this notice will be reposted if the bot task is still broken or is re-broken. If your bot is behaving as expected, then you may want to modify the task configuration instead. Or to unsubscribe from bot failure notifications, remove the |notify= parameter from the {{/task}} template. Thanks! – SDZeroBot (talk) 08:20, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

New pages patrol January 2024 Backlog drive

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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:11, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Muninnbot: Digging Teahouse archive links failure

Muninnbot's task "Digging Teahouse archive links" failed to run per the configuration specified at Wikipedia:Bot activity monitor/Configurations. Detected only 0 edits in the last 5 days, whereas at least 1 was expected. If/when the issue is fixed, please change the section title (e.g. append " - Fixed") or remove this section completely. When that is done, this notice will be reposted if the bot task is still broken or is re-broken. If your bot is behaving as expected, then you may want to modify the task configuration instead. Or to unsubscribe from bot failure notifications, remove the |notify= parameter from the {{/task}} template. Thanks! – SDZeroBot (talk) 19:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Muninnbot: Digging Teahouse archive links failure

Muninnbot's task "Digging Teahouse archive links" failed to run per the configuration specified at Wikipedia:Bot activity monitor/Configurations. Detected only 0 edits in the last 5 days, whereas at least 1 was expected. If/when the issue is fixed, please change the section title (e.g. append " - Fixed") or remove this section completely. When that is done, this notice will be reposted if the bot task is still broken or is re-broken. If your bot is behaving as expected, then you may want to modify the task configuration instead. Or to unsubscribe from bot failure notifications, remove the |notify= parameter from the {{/task}} template. Thanks! – SDZeroBot (talk) 19:20, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Muninnbot: Digging Teahouse archive links failure

Muninnbot's task "Digging Teahouse archive links" failed to run per the configuration specified at Wikipedia:Bot activity monitor/Configurations. Detected only 0 edits in the last 5 days, whereas at least 1 was expected. If/when the issue is fixed, please change the section title (e.g. append " - Fixed") or remove this section completely. When that is done, this notice will be reposted if the bot task is still broken or is re-broken. If your bot is behaving as expected, then you may want to modify the task configuration instead. Or to unsubscribe from bot failure notifications, remove the |notify= parameter from the {{/task}} template. Thanks! – SDZeroBot (talk) 11:20, 28 February 2024 (UTC)