This is an archive of past discussions with User:Theredproject. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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notability of galleries
Hey Theredproject We should work out some sort of not on the notability of galleries that can be used in complement to NCORP, and takes into account that art galleries are not just simply retail businesses that sell merchandise. I don't very much like subject-specific notability guidelines because they invite a form of textualism that invites people to follow rules rather than think about how to create a verifiable article. Can we propose something at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts? Vexations (talk) 17:38, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
@Vexations:I agree that we should figure something out re galleries and NCORP. ABXY looks edge case at best, and really quite promotional. Also full on COPYVIO see here [1] and here [2]. --Theredproject (talk) 18:18, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
That is a start, but it is really oriented towards size of the gallery (three exhibition catalogs, which are primarily about the budgets of the gallery, not the historical import), and the market presence of the gallery (5 very blue chip art fairs), and only midcareer artists and above, so to speak. But it is a start. Is de wiki generally stricter or less strict than en wiki about notability? --Theredproject (talk) 18:32, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
(talk page watcher) So sorry to butt in, but I happen to have this page on my watchlist. Redproject, well spotted, nice work! – any ordinary copyvio check wasn't picking those up for me. But please ... if you become aware of apparent copyvio anywhere in the project, could you make a point of flagging it straight away by some means or another? Blanking and listing at WP:CP is the preferred method, and not complex. In this case I think speedy deletion may be justified, so I've nominated it for that.
Since I'm here: Vexations, I wonder why you think a commercial gallery is not not just a retail business that sells stuff – isn't that exactly what it is and does? Yes, of course there's a lot of accompanying hype, but so is there in many other marketing businesses. We've got excellent guidelines at WP:NCORP; why don't we stick to those? Regards, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:04, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
This is my subjective view, I may try to formalize that somehow. If I were to go to any other retail establishment when the merchandise on sale is so wildly outside of my price range (hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars) as some of the art galleries I tend to visit, I would be kicked out and thrown on the street in an instant (not that there are many retail stores that sell more expensive stuff than art). If I visit an art gallery however, after I ring the bell next to a closed door with little or no indication of what goes on behind it, I am welcomed by courteous and competent staff who answer all my questions while they are acutely aware that there is no way in hell that I'll buy anything. And yet they feel strongly or think that it is part of their raison d'être to provide a free, museum-like experience to people who are simply interested in the work they are showing. I've been invited to private viewing rooms, left alone with stuff worth millions, merely because I expressed an interest (try that at Bijan). I happen to think that that is amazing, and there is nothing quite like it. Vexations (talk) 20:28, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
@Justlettersandnumbers: I've been meditating on this for a month or two, and I think the short version is that the artists are the products of the gallery. In the sense that the iPhone X is the product of Apple, and coverage of the iPhone is part of the coverage of Apple. Galleries have very very active roles in producing the art, and also the artists. I say this, having had a studio visit with my gallery yesterday. I have to run, but let me think about it, and try to articulate it more. Please don't jump on this right now. Give me a chance to think it through. --Theredproject (talk) 20:53, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
I have a list of articles about galleries that were brought to Afd, here. Perhaps we can compile something like common outcomes. Vexations (talk) 21:56, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Just briefly: really, I'm not jumping on anything, just saw an interesting and and rather necessary discussion and added my 2p; redproject, I know we've already debated this a bit in some AfD, but I don't recall which. Good list, Vexations! While I know that galleries like to think and believe that they in some way "make" the artists, artists often tend not to agree. Nor does our art-historical perspective support this kind of thesis – does anyone believe that Vollard "made" Picasso? I think not; from where we stand now, Picasso made Picasso. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:13, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
Justlettersandnumbers—how is an art gallery comparable to a dry cleaning store? (You mention similar business establishments in several AfDs that you've participated in such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/De Sarthe Gallery. You are not the only one. This is a common refrain.) How is art comparable to soiled clothing? For our purposes, notability is not established by mere passing references to dry cleaning establishments. But in the case of art galleries, reviews in reliable sources of exhibitions held at art galleries do indeed establish notability, or at least they tend to do that. I say "tend" because in fact many factors come into play. But the complete rejection of reviews in reliable sources of exhibitions held at art galleries from notability considerations is a position that requires rethinking. You cannot put on blinders and pretend that all business entities are alike. Indeed you will find art galleries displaying soiled clothing. A huge concern in contemporary visual art is the distinction between what is art and what isn't art. An art gallery need not have extensive commentary written about itself to establish its notability for Wikipedia purposes. Pinging Vexations as I'm interested in their input. And thank you to "Theredproject" for allowing this informal discussion to take place here. I hope they don't mind my weighing in here. Bus stop (talk) 13:29, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Your Montreal IP friend here. Regarding notability of galleries, if the sources are not available to establish notability, what will we replace them with in the case of 'famous' galleries? It seems like the discussion above points to an exemption of sorts, where the gallery gets a free pass on sources if they have represented enough famous artists? I am wondering how that would work and be phrased. And how it would extend to restaurants who have trained famous chefs or literary agents who have published famous authors. What if a Yogurt company offers long-term support to Anish Kapoor? It really just sounds like the not inherited argument again. Just spitballing here.96.127.244.27 (talk) 06:16, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
Hi 96.127.244.27, this is great. I made some copyedits. I just requested AFC tools permissions, so I can properly move the page. Also, didn't know you were in MTL. I was actually just there this past month on a residency. --Theredproject (talk) 23:16, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
hey, I have made an account, finally. Thanks for looking at the article. Apparently they are the largest collectors of digital art in the world, although I could not find a source for that claim. Re: Montreal, the Darling foundry is very good! Hope you enjoyed notre ville.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 19:41, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
@ThatMontrealIP: welcome to the world of usernames!! I'm happy, as I can thank you for edits now. You can't thank IP editors. Yes, Darling was great. And had a good time eating bagels, parlant un peu français, and eating strawberries from Atwater market. --Theredproject (talk) 00:36, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
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You are invited to join the Wikimedia NYC community for our monthly "WikiWednesday" evening salon (7-9pm) and knowledge-sharing workshop at Babycastles gallery by 14th Street / Union Square in Manhattan. Is there a project you'd like to share? A question you'd like answered? A Wiki* skill you'd like to learn? Let us know by adding it to the agenda.
We will also follow up on plans for recent and upcoming edit-a-thons, museum and library projects, education initiatives, and other outreach activities.
7:00pm - 9:00 pm at Babycastles gallery, 145 West 14th Street
(note the new address, a couple of doors down from the former Babycastles location)
We especially encourage folks to add your 5-minute lightning talks to our roster, and otherwise join in the "open space" experience! Newcomers are very welcome! Bring your friends and colleagues! --Pharos (talk) 00:14, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
(You can subscribe/unsubscribe from future notifications for NYC-area events by adding or removing your name from this list.)
You are invited to join the Wikimedia NYC community for our monthly "WikiWednesday" evening salon (7-9pm) and knowledge-sharing workshop at Babycastles gallery by 14th Street / Union Square in Manhattan. Is there a project you'd like to share? A question you'd like answered? A Wiki* skill you'd like to learn? Let us know by adding it to the agenda.
This month will also feature on our agenda, upcoming editathons, the organization's Annual Meeting, and Chapter board elections - you can add yourself as a candidate.
We will include a look at the organization and planning for our chapter, and expanding volunteer roles for both regular Wikipedia editors and new participants.
We will also follow up on plans for recent and upcoming edit-a-thons, museum and library projects, education initiatives, and other outreach activities.
7:00pm - 9:00 pm at Babycastles gallery, 145 West 14th Street
(note the new address, a couple of doors down from the former Babycastles location)
We especially encourage folks to add your 5-minute lightning talks to our roster, and otherwise join in the "open space" experience! Newcomers are very welcome! Bring your friends and colleagues! --Pharos (talk) 20:44, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
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You are invited to join the Wikimedia NYC community for our monthly "WikiWednesday" evening salon (7-9pm) and knowledge-sharing workshop at Triangle Arts Association in the DUMBO neighborhood of Brooklyn. Is there a project you'd like to share? A question you'd like answered? A Wiki* skill you'd like to learn? Let us know by adding it to the agenda.
We will also follow up on plans for recent and upcoming edit-a-thons, museum and library projects, education initiatives, and other outreach activities.
(note this month we will be meeting in DUMBO, Brooklyn, not at Babycastles)
We especially encourage folks to add your 5-minute lightning talks to our roster, and otherwise join in the "open space" experience! Newcomers are very welcome! Bring your friends and colleagues! --Pharos (talk) 01:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
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You are invited to join the Wikimedia NYC community for our monthly "WikiWednesday" evening salon (7-9pm) and knowledge-sharing workshop at Fordham University's Lincoln Center campus in Manhattan, near Columbus Circle. Is there a project you'd like to share? A question you'd like answered? A Wiki* skill you'd like to learn? Let us know by adding it to the agenda.
We will also follow up on plans for recent and upcoming edit-a-thons, museum and library projects, education initiatives, and other outreach activities.
(note this month we will be meeting in Manhattan, near Columbus Circle, not at Babycastles)
We especially encourage folks to add your 5-minute lightning talks to our roster, and otherwise join in the "open space" experience! Newcomers are very welcome! Bring your friends and colleagues! --Wikimedia New York City Team 03:23, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
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