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User talk:Slovenski Volk/Archive4New Source?For Ancient Macedonians article here an interesting book, hope it is useful [1]. Regards Aigest (talk) 12:41, 12 August 2009 (UTC) Searching further I think Woodard 2008 is more than respectable and acceptable source for Ancient Macedonian Language. Also as far as I remember Katicic 1976 put it apart from Greek, based on a thorough study of what remained from that language especially the voiced aspirates rule (/bh/ etc) differ it greatly from ancient Greek which since time of Linear turned them in ph etc. Basic language rules (and this one is a basic one), should be the same in the language family otherwise we can speak of different languages see woodard 2008 for a summary [2] I proposed to use it in Ancient Macedonian articles. What do you think? Aigest (talk) 06:17, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Ancient Macedonian LanguageIt's a pity while up to now the article looks more like a vocabulary than a language article. I think we should split the article, the Ancient Macedonian vocabulary should have an article itself what do you think? Aigest (talk) 11:19, 13 August 2009 (UTC) Balto-slavic protolanguageFile:Balto-Slavic_lng.png This image is nice, but of little information: there is no date range (or archeaological range) attached to it. Time is a very useful 4th dimension to any 2D/3D imagery! Could you find the specific dates from when till when this map was valid for the human populations? Thanks in advance. Kazkaskazkasako (talk) 15:32, 15 August 2009 (UTC) let's talk about it...Hi Hxseek, could you please take discussion on Kosovo to the related talk page? Along with reverting my edit, you also reinstated some quite controversial statements without providing references, yours, Brutal Deluxe (talk) 23:44, 15 August 2009 (UTC) Macedonian nationalismHi Hxseek! I am interested in your opinion about this article. Probably you can improve it as an neutral editor. Regards! Jingby (talk) 07:38, 21 August 2009 (UTC) Response
There's too many issues with your edits to go through now, I don't have time, but basically they smack to me as POV edits, you better stop and discuss before you carry on.Brutal Deluxe (talk) 00:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC) Cruciani R1bNo, not that I know of. It was a paper that was going to be presented at a conference, and these things tend to take time. I am wondering if we'll see it this year.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 05:40, 19 September 2009 (UTC) Kaczanowski, KozłowskiHere is what the book says on p. 281: In the territories of eastern Europe we observe the occurrence of cultures characterized by a lower, in relation to the previously mentioned ones (Przeworsk, Wielbark etc. - Orczar), degree of economic development. It manifests itself in the passing (expiration) of the cultural traditions of the pre-Roman period and in very limited assimilation of new impulses, permeating from the territory of the Roman state. Among such units is the Zarubintsy culture in its late (early Roman period) phase and the groups that originated from the Zarubintsy base... Orczar (talk) 01:38, 20 September 2009 (UTC) Buko I've got in Polish, didn't know there was an English edition Orczar (talk) 02:10, 21 September 2009 (UTC) Very interesting articleBrowsing I found this very interesting article here [3] Hope it's viewable to you. Aigest (talk) 14:17, 23 September 2009 (UTC) Im backHi Hxseek. Well I can see it got really heated in some articles, in the meantime. There's almost the same story at Talk:Illyrians as it was a half yr ago. LOL You've asked me for refs for Pannonian Croatia. you gave me a good account of the border history of the Frankish -Bulgar wars in pannonia earlier. I can't find it. Where the hell we were discussing about it? Anyway, refs are probably one or more of these: Rudolf Horvat, Povijest Hrvatske I. (od najstarijeg doba do g. 1657.), Zagreb 1924. Nada Klaić, Povijest Hrvata u ranom srednjem vijeku, Zagreb 1975. Eduard Peričić, Hrvatski kraljevi (Zlatno doba hrvatske povijesti), Zadar 2000. Zenanarh (talk) 09:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Depends what kind of fun you're looking for. Dubrovnik is beautiful, but also the most boring city in Dalmatia. Zenanarh (talk) 10:36, 25 September 2009 (UTC) But Hvar is definitely good place for partying. If you like electronic music, go to the island of Pag, Zrće beach, it's a new "Ibiza" - 24hrs per day, all summer; or visit Petrčane near Zadar, there are series of festivals during all summer, beginning with "Garden festival", usually all English club scene moves there by summer. Zenanarh (talk) 10:59, 25 September 2009 (UTC) Genetic researches on Illyrians? Are you sure it was about Illyrians? I can only remember I've told you about researches on Old-Croatian necropolises... Can you find where have I mention it, maybe my brain turns on when I see it... Zenanarh (talk) 07:48, 1 October 2009 (UTC) It's not about Old-Croatian 8th century Nin/Ždrijac site where there are anthropologic similarities to some old Slavic population of Poland. It's about 2 other Old Croatian 8th century sites, one is near Benkovac in Zadar hinterland, another is Mravinci near Split. Here remains are related to autochtonuous Paleo population. That's what I've informed you: 75% Paleo, 25% Neolithic, no early Medieval newcomers. A year or 2 ago multidisciplinary researches were started there and by estimations it was supposed to be finished in 5 years. In the meantime only some reports are coming but I think there's still no any paper officially. I'll check. Zenanarh (talk) 09:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
OK I'll manage something in a few days, I must find it first. However, keep in mind that Nin/Ždrijac is just one site where anthropo-remains were related to the people who possibly came from the north. In the same time there are 2 other sites (of the same Old Cro culture) where anthropo-remains were related to the indigenious population. So only Nin/Ždrijac is useless to draw some general relations between northern migrators and Old Cro culture. Old Cro culture was completely autochtonuous materially, while population was obviously predominantly indigenious but probably Slavized by a small number of newcomers. These newcomers obviously came as soldiers and mercenaries (Goths in 6th, Avar/Sclavens in 7th century) and not like numerous peoples. I know about Turkic theory, more precisely it is proto-Bulgarian theory of Croatian origins. But noone takes it seriously here, it's based on only one personal name (Khurvat - a leader of proto-Bulgarians) and nothing else. It's considered as a kind of joke. Zenanarh (talk) 09:57, 6 October 2009 (UTC) Check this [4]. Full text in English is available attached to a link at the page. Zenanarh (talk) 13:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Interesting, R1a1, but hard to believe that it spread from "cold" Europe to "warm" Asia in the age when the most of movements were towards Europe... I want to join map makers society here, I've installed Inkscape, must read tutorial first, but I'm interested where do you take svg blank maps from. I like especially this background map  but I can't find the empty one. Am I missing something? Zenanarh (talk) 08:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I was too busy, haven't touch inkscape yet. Soon I'll be more online, we can finish Illyrian maps, I want to make some more detailed maps related to the Liburnians, Dalmatae etc. Zenanarh (talk) 08:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Your Violation of the 3RR
(2) Wrong. If you look through the article's "History Page" you can seen that your trying to mislead everyone here, and you've changed your position, which is still Original Researched base. One Last Time, You have Violated the 3RR in the 24 hour period (which I will let Admins aware of). PROVIDE A DIRECT PASSAGE OR CITATION VERIFYING YOUR CLAIMS. VERIFICATION. You changed your position from saying that: (1) "No. Those papers showed that Semino, etc proposed that R1a arose in E.E. They did not make a direct critique on Kivisild's" -- Then why even state it even if it has no direct relevance? As in no link. Why? Because you are trying to correlate a (2000) and (2002) paper, with findings from a (2003) paper, with no direct relationship. You said it all in your OWN words and actions.
-- So YOU reworded the sentence to fit your OWN position(s)? YOU are making interpretations and positioning them as scholarly edits with direct linkages (you said it yourself: "I have re-worded the sentence ... highlighting the obviousl flaw in Kvisilid's paper")... That's Called Original Research!!!! Caught you line by line. Cosmos416 06:21, 11 October 2009 (UTC) 3RR Violation:
Kosovo HistoryStop disruptive edits Read the history of dardania before you go there and change articles or at least open a discussion before you change articles.-- LONTECH Talk 15:27, 20 October 2009 (UTC) Now you accept that Kingdom existed. and in the name of Kosovo - present day Kosovo you remove the Kingdom as minor change if you remove it again i'll report you.-- LONTECH Talk 06:50, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
you have been reported here [here].-- LONTECH Talk 08:50, 21 October 2009 (UTC) ANI notice
WarningYou've just reverted the article again, on a 1RR restricted article, and after being advised otherwise by an admin. You're in danger of being blocked. Just letting you know. Equazcion (talk) 20:39, 21 October 2009 (UTC) October 2009 {{unblock|Your reason here}} below, but you should read our guide to appealing blocks first. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC) Slovenski Volk (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log)) Request reason: Vulcan's block is unjustified. My statement on the relevant TP was descriptive of the nature of a user's edits, not a direct WP:PA per se. The link to B.A.D. was to clarify what 'tangentiality' is for those who are not familiar with the term. So Vulcan has mis-understood the context of the sentence, and therefore his block is on a flase premise Decline reason: No, it is not. "You are a jerk" and "You are acting like a jerk" have exactly the same impact, insofar as they degrade dialogue and are damaging to community. Characterizing other editors is fraught with the peril of blockage. --jpgordon::==( o ) 23:50, 21 October 2009 (UTC) If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked. Slovenski Volk (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log)) Request reason: Jpgordon has also missed the point. The sentence states that the arguements are tangential. ie off topic. The very word tangential might not be understood by lay people (case in point, JPG). It is used in medical circles when describing disorganized ideas, often linked with BAD. Hence my link to that. It does not amount to callling somone a 'nutcase', or similar effects. JPGs analogy totally misses the point Decline reason: This edit constituted a personal attack. Instead of making a BAD argument, link to off topic or Wiktionary next time. Or you could say "off topic" instead of "tangential"... or you could make the sound assumption that most people know what "tangential" means. Dekimasuよ! 04:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC) If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
That's your short-coming, then. Hxseek (talk) 03:34, 22 October 2009 (UTC) Violation of 1RR
{{unblock|Your reason here}} below. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:28, 23 October 2009 (UTC)Slovenski Volk (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log)) Request reason: This block is after the fact. I have already been blocked since Hxseek (talk) 03:18, 23 October 2009 (UTC) Decline reason: The block seems proper, the previous block was for an unrelated incident kmccoy (talk) 04:02, 23 October 2009 (UTC) If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked. ANI discussion
Illyrians and GreeksFew times I’ve read that name Dalmatia didn’t come from Illyrian delma (sheep). Dalmatian meant Dal Maedians – South Maedians. The immigrants from Maedia, the Madi, Maedi, Medi were one of the proto-Illyrians or a component to form Illyrian kind of people in general or better to say people whose culture changed culture of the Paleo-Dinarians in the Bronze Age to become recognized as the Illyrian one in the Iron Age. And although these Old-Iranian people had spread onto a large area across the north of the Black Sea to the Western Balkans in the Bronze Age, it seems that name Maedi survived during the Iron Age only as a name of a few Thracian tribes in modern Bulgaria and Greece, while the most of that area was further covered with the Thracian ethnic name in the east and Illyrian in the west. I was interested in it and found this pdf. lots of text Illyrians and Greeks (Enchellae and Hellenes) Academic Mirko Vidović, 2008
However, the Hellenes were not domestic people in Thracia and other Old-Greek regions. Where to search for their origin? WHO WERE THE HELLENES? Many West-European experts for the ancient history have agreed that the Hellenes were only one and more marginal tribe of the Dorians - Dorians gradually came to the south from Adriatic-Pannonian regions. There was claim about initial kindred of the Dorians and Hellenes written by Herodotus: “The Spartanians were Dorian immigrants and they were the Pelasgians by their origin. Doros was a son of Helen, and the Spartanians took name Dorians after him” (H. “Histories”, I.56) French encyclopedia “Larousse” takes legends about the Dorians reticently and use reliable arguments to state: “This people came from the northern lands, from Middle Danube area… Since traces of 3 Dorian tribes (Hyleeni, Dymani, Pamphyli) can be found in many other places, the main seat of the 4th tribe, Argolidi, was at the Peloponnesus… (“Larouse, t. IV.” Page 192) In “Histories” Herodotus stated precisely that Hellenes were settled in the region of Epirus first, while French “Larousse” states that first seat of the Hellenes was prophetic center in Dodona (page 832), where they had their initial temple dedicated to god Zeus (Lifecreator). According to Herodotus, they moved from there to the south, and came to fertile and rich province Attica with fortified capital Athens. Herodotus stated: “The Pelasgians were driven off from Attica in both righteous and wicked ways” (H.L’, VI, 137) Driven off from there, the Pelasgians finally found peace in the north of the Ionian Sea. Herodotus was not able to give some reliable thinking about the Pelasgian language. He said only: “ The Pelasgians were speaking some foreign language… Tribe in Attica was Pelasgian, but under domination of the Hellenes they learnt to speak Hellenic language.” (I. 42) Another interesting statement by Herodotus: Ionians, while settled at Peloponnesus in province now known as Achaia, and before Danais and Zutos came, used to call themselves Pelasgi-Eguali, in a whole of the Hellenes, and only later, the Ionians, after Ion a son of Zuntos.” (VII, 94) From here it’s obvious they were all relatives. ((-> by “they” an author means initial settlers of Greece – Pelasgians, Pelasgians-Eguali,…)) Also important by Herodotus: “The Athenians were called Kranaci in the age when the Pelasgians were the masters of what is now called Helada…” And more: “Name barbarians originated in Sparta as name for strangers.” (XI,11) More: “Hellenic prophet in Apollonia, and in Ionian Gulf, it was also a land of the Pelasgians” (IX, 911) A detail given by Pliny the Elder in “Historia Naturalis” can help in seeking for origin of Ellas (Hellenes): “From Raša river to Krka river there was a land of the Liburnians: there were also Mentores, Hymani, Enchelae, Buni” and more precisely “Et quos Callimachus Peucetias appellat nunc totum uno nominee Illyricum vocatur generatim populorum pauca effatu digna, aut facillia nomina” (and those for whom Callimacus said they were Peucetines – now they are all called with general name Illyrians. Not too many peoples from these regions are worth to mention, since it’s hard to spell their names.) (III,25) With Hymani and Enchelae, there were also Buni – today same called Bunjevci around Bribir. Peucetines were the most possibly those settled around Cetina river – by-Cetines. Since Hymani were in Dorian group, for Enchelae can be also said they were the ancestors of the Ellens. In the Greek language, Pliny’s Enchelae had Greek name Egheleai. In Greek “eg” had meaning close to Latin prefix “ex”, while “ge”meant - earth, land, region. Thus Eg-heleai should be translated as Seating Eleai (home, domestic, original Elai), in the south as the immigrants they were using only Eleai, which produced Ellen. ((-> Enchealae were first recorded in the Gulf of Kotor, but then gradually moved to the south between Taulanti and Epirotic Haones!)) HELLENIC LANGUAGE: Concerning the language brought by the Hellenes to the south, in a whole of the Dorians, Herodotus was perfectly clear: “ From primeval times Hellenic tribe was always speaking the language which is also now spoken… But, since many other peoples, foreign to them, fell under their authority, Hellenic language became a language of these peoples too. The Pelasgians haven’t develop significantly because they were not Hellenized.” (I, 58) Herodotus mentioned only the Pelasgians in Attica as the subjugated ones. They continued with cultural superstructure, but Hellenic language became their common speech. All great people from Athens were the Dorians. First among the Dorians were the Antiohes. Antiohos in Greek means - a leader. Socrates origins came from this Dorian brothership. (A. Chaignet: “Vie de Socrate”, Librairie academique, Paris, 1868, 250) NAME GREEKS? Herodotus himself pointed to occurrence, development, strengthening and influence of the Hellenes in the other regions of Ionian and Tyrrhenian Seas, thus their tribal name was adopted also by the other tribes under Hellenic domination, especially in Late Hellenic Period of the universal “koine” (mutual speaking used by all Greeks in communication). However, from the point of view of the western neighbors of the Hellenes, the Latins and their expanding political empire over more and more usurped lands and peoples, general name Hellenes was replaced by a new name – Graeci. First who used Graii was Virgil in his poems and this name was related to population of Arcadia. This initial name was also mentioned by Pliny the Elder, he said: “In population of the Grai Alps, Greek GRAII have their ancestors” (H.N., III, 24). In addition we’ll see that these “Grai Alps” were – the Dinaric Alps. Many wide positioned groups in the Illyrian lands had roots from this term, like: Agri, Agriani, Angrivari etc. We shall see that, in Pliny’s interpretation of Argonaut mission, ship Argo carried by the human hands crossed the mountain in the inland of Trsat, this mountain was called Grai Alps (the Dinaric Alps) by Pliny. Somewhat changed, this “someone else’s” (Virgil’s !) name produced also name Agrae by Pliny the Elder for population in the city of the same name in Arcadia on Peloponnesus. Finally, name Graecus became commonly used as a synonym for Greek name Ellen, first by Cicerone (author of pamphlet “Graesae littterae”). After Cicerone, this name became normative for many other Latin annalists and writers. Horatius’ verse “Graetia capta ferum victorem coepit ut artes intulit agraesti Latio” (Greece, although overpowered by force of the weapon, conquered Rome by its arts) summarizes in itself also destiny of the Hellenic world, also comparable to destiny of the other peoples that had been gradually overruled by the Hellenes before. But contrary to the Hellenes, the Latins were non-inventive, superficial and self-confident, generally same as any other usurper and occupier people: eclectics, they appropriated anything they reached and adopted it to their own knowledge, according to practical needs, in the first place with purpose of assimilation and domination. A lot of usurped and transformed terms from Latin literal and vernacular tradition were adopted also in our place ((-> he means Croatia)), mostly by the Latin interference and influence, later by accustomed connoisseurs of the Latin culture, language, especially motivated by the Roman Christianity. THE DINARIANS IN RELATION TO THE GREEKS AND LATINS: Now we can cite an expert for the Illyrians and Illyrian culture, dr. Antun Mayer: “The Greeks were meeting the Illyrians everywhere on their way from the north to their historical lands, during their migrations, especially in the last one, so-called Dorian migration (around 1.200-1.000 BC). We conclude this according to miscellaneous circumstances. Already in 1911, Weege has proved (“Mitel des deutschen archeologisches Instituts”, Arthen, Abt. 36, 184 etc) that first settlement in Olympia belonged to some people who had come from the north, because traces of the same culture were found in Bosnia; it concerns excavations from the Older Iron Age, the most known is in Glasinac. As seen by the archeological findings, the Messapians crossed from the Balkans to Lower Italy around 1000 BC, it’s possible that also this migration was caused by breach of the Dorians across the north-western Balkans to the south. It’s significant that one of three Dorian populations (kin, tribe) in Sparta, was Hyleis which was name of an Illyrian tribe after whom peninsula between Šibenik and Trogir was called. Blumenthal has proved that Hylei left a lot of traces in Spartanian vocabulary from all aspects of life. So the Spartanians were made of one foreign element – Illyrian, one autochthonous by name Dymanes meaning “kinmen” and 3rd was Pam-phyloi obviously an admixture of those who arrived and indigene vasals. (Povijest hrvatskih zemalja BiH – skupno djelo, Napredak, Sarajevo, 1942). INVASION FROM MEDIA: First mention of name Illyrians (in three appearances) can be found in a work of Herodotus – “Histories”. This name was related to very important information about how the Maedians invaded regions between Danube and Adriatic Sea, where an exceptionally old and developed civilization of the Aryans was settled, today known by many archaeological excavations from Danilo to Vučedol Culture, especially in triangle Donja Dolina, Vučedol, Butmir. Herodotus wrote: “Lands on the other side of Danube look like a huge desolate region; Population by name Sigynnas is living there and they wear the same clothes as the Maedians do. Their horses are hairy over all body, of short height, tough and not suitable for riding. But harnessed to the carriage, they can run rapidly. ((-> interestingly, we have such horse in Dalmatia and in the Velebit mountain and it’s traditionally called “Bosnian horse”!)) Thus, Sigynnes are known by having a lot of horse-carriages. They colonized regions all to near Enetoi, those settled by the Adriatic Sea. It’s been said that these people are the immigrants from Maedia. I can hardly understand how could have the Maedians managed to conquer such a huge space, but length of time makes everything possible. The Ligurians who live to the north of Massilia (Marseilles) use name Sigynni for the merchants who deal with wine, while spears called “sigynnas” are used in Cyprus. (V, 9) ((-> it seems the most of Maedians in the lands after invasion were later covered by Thracian ethnos, same large area in the most part in the east, but finally they were all proto-Illyrians, proto-Thracians and proto-Greeks)) According to sudden changes in cultures and traditions in the Adriatic-pan Danube regions, the Maedians were militarily superior, which means that their culture becoming one with the autochthonous culture of the Dinarians grew up into completely new synthesis, characteristical for their descendents Illyrians. It’s also proved that old Pelasgian language was pressed out in almost all of these regions, while the Maedian language in synthesis with the one found in the same place, even today can be identified in the languages formed from that synthesis in the age of the Illyrians, settlers of Pannonia. Both Strabon and Pliny the Elder mentioned the Illyrians as the settlers of Pannonia which spread from Raša to Drina and from the Adriatic to Danube river. (P.S., “H.N.”, III, 29) About the remains of the ancient language of the Dinarians, respectively the Pelasgians (with superficial statement of Herodotus), a Catholic bishop Marijan Šunjić wrote, already in the beginning of the 19th century – pointing to possibility that modern language of the Albanians descended from that language as the last remain. In relation, statement by Herodotus is important about group name of the Maedians: “All world had been using name Aryans for the Maedians before… they changed their ethnic name themselves to Maedians, that is their own statement.” (VII, 62) Herodotus mentioned the Illyrians again in next context: “The Babylonians have tradition , as I’ve heard from the others, to present in the publics those girls who are old enough for marriage in every place and sell them on auction, same as the Illyrian Veneti do.” (I, 196) Massive migration of the Dorians to the south of the Balkan peninsula happened much later, around 1200 BC, when both of these populations already had become one. That’s how cultural richness they brought to the south can be understood, not only the language, but also religion, iron and most of all – Dorian style in architecture. However, unlike the Maedians who breached to the regions of the Adriatic-pan Danube Dinarians, respectively Pelasgians, the members of the powerful patrician tribe of the Maspians came to our lands ((-> an author means Croatia and surroundings)) and went to the south to Otrant where they crossed the sea and settled in the south-east of Italy. (I, 125) According to the most of that material found in excavations of Danilo-Vučedol Culture which is now saved in Museum of Archaeology in Sarajevo, it’s obvious that around 2.000 BC, meeting of two civilizations occurred, one from the east and autochthonous one. From that moment, continuity of an older autochthonous culture was broken and new one originated as synthesis of two. The most possibly it was Maedian breach to the lands of the Arians because of importance of the Amber Road which passed through our regions ((-> he means Croatia)) from Trsat behind the Apsirtides (Kvarner) to the far north at the mouth of river Visla (Baltic Sea), even today called Raduan (Antique Eridan). ARGONAUTS: ARGYANS AND SIGYNNIANS: In special chapter “Conquest of the golden wool” of her eminent work “Mythology”, a Hellenist Edith Hamilton processed real historical accidents transformed into a legend, conflict between two civilizations in the Apsartides (Kvarner) and in the inland, precisely between Tarsatica (Trsat) and Nauportus (Brod na Kupi). These two ancient civilizations stepped into conflict of interests over final stage of the Amber Road, which was starting on Rječina river near Trsat, crossing the hills in the inland by the land road to Brod na Kupi and was further drawn by the rivers and sometimes roads to the mouth of Eridan (Raduan) at the coast of the Baltic Sea. This legend is reliable insight into Maedian invasion personified in Medea and resistance of indigene Dinarians personified in Jason. Bloody marriage of these two civilizations finished with defeat of Medea’s brother Absyrtus in the islands wide to the south of Trsat and victory of a symbiosis of two civilizations into something that later became their posterity, the Illyrians as the central tribes of the Dinarians. About this imbuing of two civilizations something was written by Herodotus too: “Nothing reliable can be said about the peoples who were settled in the western regions of Europe or by the western coasts. Allegedly there is a river called Eridan by the barbarians (modern Raduan, the mouth of Visla river), it flows into the Northern Sea, from where the amber comes, by sayings… Name Eridan points to a Greek original, not the barbarian…” (III, 115) Additionally in another context Herodotus stated: “ Grandchildren of Argonaut, driven off from Lesbos by the Pelasgians… said: We are descendents of Minos, a hero of the Argonauts…” (IV, 145). It’s obvious that Argo was made by the Argians who were, as already said, the Dorian colonizers of Peloponnesus. It means that those Argians who had moved to the south still considered that all eastern Adriatic coast was theirs and that right to control the beginning of the Amber Road belonged to them and not to the newcomers who moved into the inland, namely the Maedians. But since the Maedians were more skillful warriors they successfully survived in the areas between Danube and Adriatic, in such way that mixed with the indigenes they managed to overthrow foreign rule personified in Medea’s brother Absyrtus, their language has become an evidence for victory of superior Maedian Culture. Even Herodotus wrote about military power of the Maedians: “If the Hellenes only hear word “Maedians” they are shaking in fear.” (VI, 112) By the way, the closest allies to the Maedians were Dorian Spartanians, within whom the Argians or Achaeans were the leading tribe. But, about the Amber Road Pliny the Elder wrote more straight and short: “… It has been said that Argo cruised by the river, unspecified by name, to the Adriatic near Tergeste (Trsat). More reliable writers have stated that ship Argo came there on the backs of the people who carried it across the Alps (Pliny pointed to the Dinarian Alps), there it was taken down to the water in Istria and from there it cruised to Sava river and finally to Nauport (Brod na Kupi)…” (H.N., III, 22) ORIGINAL RELIGION OF THE PELASGIANS AND MAEDIANS: Concerning religion of the old Iranians, Herodotus wrote that they “use Jupiter (supreme divinity) for all heaven circle, they respect the sun, moon, earth and fire, as well as water and wind…” (I, 131) They are known for saving purity of the rivers and they never allow anyone to pollute it…” (I, 138) On the other side, concerning religion of the Pelasgians, respectively indigene Dinarians, Herodotus wrote: The Pelasgians make all kind of sacrifices while praying… but they don’t call any particular god by name or nickname… they have only general name of “God” and that is, according to them, because he has created the world and order in it and has hidden a secret of rule by which anything exists…” (III, 52) Herodotus explained: “Almost all of names of gods came to Greece from Egypt. Those god names that doesn’t exist among the Egyptians were created b the Pelasgians, in my opinion” (II, 50) Since the Egyptian priests had been living a few millenniums in hope that God will appear in human body, he stated: “No god ever appeared in form of the human body and nothing similar ever happened from the first to the last Egyptian king” (II, 142). However, the Pelasgians built first sacred place to Zeys, god lifecreator in Epirotic city of Dodona, which was also their oldest pythian center. Symbols of Lifecreator have been noticed also in ceremonial pans found in excavations in regions around Vučedol. By the way, symbol of Orion, which was central point of religion and meditation of the old Pan-Danubers, has been found also in the ruins of Knossos at Crete, pointing that it had been and remained sacral sign of the Dorians who arrived there. The most possibly that was how they got their name the Aryans (admirers of Orion, while first female divinity of Haatti in center of the Asia Minor was called Arina. By this direction, the Aryans from Middle Danube area passed to get all the way to India, carrying their language there. It’s possible that our ((-> he means Croatian)) very archaic word “orijaš” (extremely large) arose in those ancient times. MAIN ELEMENTS IN PHILOSOPHY OF THE ATHENIANS: It’s generally known that Socrates was an initiator of specific Athenian philosophy school developed by his students and followers. Socrates was not only a member of Athenian Dorian nobility, namely the narrowest Dorian nobility – Antioches, he was also a mercenary in Maedo-Persian army, as well as his student Xenophontes. Socrates was a son of a stone carver, he adopted his father’s skill and improved it to become an official Athenian sculptor. Allegedly he was an author of today missing “Gracia”’s that used to be exposed behind Erechtheum. However, while he was working his job of a sculptor, he assembled young Athenians from families of the ruling class and presented them ideas completely new to the Athenians, ones that he had brought from Iran by his military duties there. Concerning important elements of Socrates’ philosophy, French author A. E. Chaignet (“Vie de Socrate”) states that it was “science as natural excellence”, that Socrates was an initiator of “science about human, philosophy of society” (p. 48). His statement “human genie has inspired heaven directly” was interpreted as blasphemy in paganian Athena. Socrates taught his students to “investigate their consciences by searching for truth” (p. 89) Socrates was sure that we have to keep in mind “by which method we can conceive something”. This methodology was explained in Plato’s “Feudon” and it was also used by Aristotle. His method was – doubt until evidences are found whether something is rational or not. (p. 81) “Socrates took dangerous role of a consciousness awakener” (p. 107). This method was developed by Descartes in “Discours de la methode”. Saint Paul had excellent knowledge of Greek philosophy and left a note: Why someone else’s consciousness should restrict my freedom?” and “Everything not done by deepest conviction is a sin”. Chaignet: “Socrates was accused for unrecognizing officially proclaimed gods” (p. 188) “New by Socrates was his devotion to Dorian aristocracy.” (p. 250) “His leading thought was – to say truth and all of truth.” (p. 252) Because only the slaves were inconstant. In “Apologia to Socrates” Plato cited Socrates’ declaration in the court: “Not having right to evidence truth means to act like a slave”. Keeping in mind that, according to Herodotus, lying was strictly prohibited in society of the Old Iranians, it’s obvious where Socrates got these new ideas from, and for these ideas he was judged to death by the Athenians. ILLYRIAN LANGUAGE AND GREEK LANGUAGE: It’s important to cite Herodotus here too: “ From primeval times Hellenic race was always speaking language which is also now spoken… it was multified onto many peoples, especially when this great number of subjugated peoples adopted Hellenic language…” (I, 58) However, the Hellenes as well as the other Dorians came to the south from the northern Adriatic-Danube regions. Enchelae and Hylei, Dymanes too were populations that emigrated from our coasts and inland. Language brought by them from their native land was exactly one they built in foundations of a future Hellenic, namely Greek language. By the way, for mutual communication and communication to the inland world and not only for trade or diplomatic reasons, the Dorians adjusted Phoenician alphabet to their own language and so Greek script originated. It’s also stated by French expert for general linguistics Georges Jean (L’Ecriture – memoire des homes, Gallimard, Paris, 1987): “In 2nd millennium BC the Greeks had used specific graphic system and script that disappeared around 1.100 BC in the ruins of their old culture because of Dorian break. Around 3-4 centuries later there was new alphabet in Greece, developed from the Phoenician. First inscriptions found were on the clay tablets. It’s possible, almost sure, that these letters originated by deformation of wedge shaped script, possibly also from the Egyptian demotic. Phoenician alphabet (differently from Dorian) had no vocals, there were only consonants… (52, 53) In the age of the first inscriptions in new alphabet and new language, the Dorians seemed to hold their rule strongly in all lands of Helleno-phonic world. About how change of language appeared in the Greek regions in relation to Dorian migration to the south, British expert for the Hittitian civilization, J. G. Macqeen has written following words: “Population of Greece didn’t speak some Indo-European language in the ancient times, in those areas proto-Luvitan language was spoken, one that was established there during the Bronze Age. (“The Hittites, London, 1985, 164). By the way, both Russian and French linguists have agreed that all languages of Indo-European group came from the European south-east, respectively from middle Danube confluence. FINALLY: In Russian encyclopedia we can read in short what Russian linguists know about the “Illyrian languages”: “Examination of the ancient toponomastics points to the Illyrian origin of geographical names along the area from south-west to north-east, or from the Adriatic to the Baltic Sea, beginning from the south. It can be explained by existence of the ancient roads by which trade of the amber and salt was going on. The most of remains of these languages has been found in the region of Old-Venetic language, which presented a cross between the Italic and Germanic languages and connection to the Balto-Slavic languages. The best insight to the Illyrian language is given by saved influences to the Old-Greek language, which has been in most detail discussed by Bulgarian explorer Vladimir Gerogiev… In the ancients, the Illyrians consisted of tribes settled in the regions between the Adriatic Sea and Danube river. Among these tribes, it’s worth to mention: Veneti, Iapodes, Autariates, Dalmatae, Histri, … The richest findings of the Illyrian culture has been found by the river of Sava, especially in Donja Dolina, pointing to a high degree of metallurgy.” (B.S.E., t. 17, 535, 536) Independently to examinations of the foreign linguists, with belief that the Dorians brought their – Illyrian! – language when they arrived to the south, I have finished very complex but encircled examination work in target to globally identify those words in the Old-Greek language that remained also in speeches of our lands, in the native land of the Dorians. I have found more than 2.200 of these, very similar or identical words and published it in my book “Panonija” (Matica Hrvatska, Livno-Čakovec, 2003) It's my translation so feel free to fix typos. Zenanarh (talk) 08:31, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
R1a originsFirst, just my opinion: I agree that origins theories can almost never be conclusive, but the reason is that we have almost no evidence to work with except for those STR diversities, as well as (don't forget) the geographical dispersals of the closest related clades. However, why specifically mention the Ukraine if it is just one of many places where the (weak) evidence is not pointing to it? Of course the Ukraine is still mentioned as part of the core area, and part of the area where R1a is most likely to have originated, but can we really say it is the leading candidate? Second: putting my opinion aside, what can we cite in Wikipedia? We are not really supposed to be writing our own theories into it.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:04, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
BTW your perspective on the talk page discussions right now would be appreciated. Things are slightly messy, but a few outside views might work wonders. I am writing to all recent editors of the article.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:01, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, that article is certainly an RS.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:26, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Nice. You'd need to put in coastlines though? Less important details, if we are to be perfectionist:
Concerning coastlines, I can not actually see any, so for example I can make out where Scandinavia is, but to understand the Asia section I needed to look at the original article. Given your question, I am not sure if this is something that might come from the file format and how it shows on different browsers?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:34, 28 November 2009 (UTC) The relevance of the archaeological evidence partly depends upon how old you think R1a is. If you think it is very old then the archaeological evidence so far found is all showing nothing about origins, because too recent. I've tried to be fair in my version of the article and include comments about every theory I know of. PB666 believes I should not include mention of Central Asia as a theory for example. He is very interested in wheat domestication, gluten problems and so on, and he strongly favours a Middle Eastern origin, for which we have only a few recent hints of a theory in the new Underhill paper. Personally I reckon the case is wide open.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:09, 28 November 2009 (UTC) Very nice!--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:29, 28 November 2009 (UTC) Concerning the Middle East (or maybe I should call it Middle East/ Caucasus), yes, it has hardly ever been mentioned. I do find the idea interesting, but I agree it can't be yet called a leading theory. I guess it should be pointed out though that all articles before Underwood did not have the M420 to look at.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:29, 28 November 2009 (UTC) No I think Eurapedia would be a controversial source to use. It contains a lot of stuff that does not come from any obvious source, even if they do name some articles.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:40, 29 November 2009 (UTC) See [8]--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC) TMRCA calculationsHi. There is a dilemma here. I know of no really thorough discussion of the problems with the Zhivitovsky technique, except for ones on internet forums and blogs. (The Dienekes blog and the ROOTSWEB DNA-GENEALOGY Forum are two places where it has been discussed many times.) Of course once you are aware of the controversy you can then see it between the lines in the published literature, because there are articles which do use the method, and articles which do not and articles which do both things [9]. Occasionally there are small remarks about it, but I can not think of a good example that really makes it a good source. Some of the articles on the new JOGG are perhaps worthwhile for this. A general problem in this field is that there are not many articles which debate things like this. This is why [JOGG www.jogg.info] is becoming so important, not just for genealogists I believe.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:41, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
SourcesThanks Hxseek, I don't want to bother anyone but if it doesn't make a problem to you... :) But it's not some hurry. Now I want to expand Liburnian, Iapodian, Histrian and Delmataean articles, I'm playing with Liburnia related maps at present. I've already prepared Liburnian history section but haven't edited it yet. Liburnians is completely messed up. It needs reorganization. Please can you check typos in Liburnia. I think pdf I've shown to you is interesting for position of the Ancient Macedonians between "Illyrian" and "Hellenic" world as well as for importance of the Dorian migration for ethnogenesis of both "Illyrian" and "Hellenic" groups. Zenanarh (talk) 09:47, 27 November 2009 (UTC) Wow R1a... Yes email me that source please. Zenanarh (talk) 14:18, 27 November 2009 (UTC) Go to my userpage and use option "E-mail this user". Simple as that. When you send me 1st mail I will have your e-mail and when I reply you will have mine, so this wiki tool won't be needed anymore. ;-) Zenanarh (talk) 09:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC) Interesting maps [10] Zenanarh (talk) 09:26, 24 December 2009 (UTC) Merry Christmas and happy new year, Hxseek, all the best. Zenanarh (talk) 13:57, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Well, Montenegrin is largely based on the eastern South Slavic vocabulary, same as Serbian and Macedonian, although there's a lot of western too, more than in Serbian; western builds Cro and Slo speeches. This is why you probably have problem to understand. Also, in Dalmatia we use a lot of Dalmatian language vocabulary in Chakavian, but real Chakavian is not anymore heard widely, maybe only in the islands. In last 20-30 years Chakavian is additionally Stokavianized in Dalmatia, so the best part of us, Dalmatians, is speaking some Cha/Sto dialect - Chakavian vocabulary with general Stokavian structure, but Ikavian. I speak such combination even in my professional life, only when I write documents I use standard Cro Stokavian Ijekavian. Unlike the Macedonians, Serbs and Montenegrins, the Slovenes can understand Chakavian much better, but when it comes to words from Dalmatian, noone can understand us. Zenanarh (talk) 10:16, 12 January 2010 (UTC) mapsHappy New Year! I wonder if you ever thought of using any of those Chiaroni maps. We could certainly do with something better for E1b1b1a.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:42, 2 January 2010 (UTC) R1a KlyosovCould I ask you to look at this and comment? I am also asking other editors active on the article.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:13, 3 January 2010 (UTC) ban, županI've found these etymologies in Hrv. encikl. rječnik - online, by Anić. ban avar. bajan: vođa horde ← turk. *bāj: bogat ← iran. Anić links it to the Iranian origin, via Avaro-Turkic. župan a. onaj koji je na čelu župe, poglavar plemenske države Derived from župa župa
prasl. *župa (strus. župa, češ. župa) ? ≃ grč. gýpē: spilja Here an author only suggests possible link Greek - Pre-Slavic, but obviously this is not certain. Zenanarh (talk) 12:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
(France Bezlaj, Etimološki slovar slovenskoga jezika Š-Ž, 4. knj., ZRC, Ljubljana, 2005) Standardized in Croatian: župa – 'region, district' or 'parish'. Derivations: župnik, župnišče, župnija, župnijski, župnikovati,... Župnik – traditionaly also 'sunny land'. First recorded in 1315: die supp Schresnawicz Croatian, Serbian: župa – 'familia, genus, populus, territorium, regio officium, judicium, parochia and tera aprica (sunny land),...' Czechs, Ukrainians: župa – 'district, region' Medieval Church-Slavic: župište, župišče, župilište – 'grave' Župa as 'region' is closer to Gothic gawi "Gau" of uncertain etymology. According to Machek, Latin: pagus 'region' with metathesis belongs here too. Persson thinks that there are 2 different words -župa. Word župa is obviously related to *županъ, but it's unknown which one is older. Župan – municipality chief. Older - judge,... First recorded among the Alpine Slavs in 777 AD as jopan. In other Slavic languages: From Slavic languages probably New High German: Gespan (Gespanschaft, Spanschaft) in meaning 'friend, compatriot' Medium Latin: hispanus In Slovene population of Istria: požup – a person who conducts local communal works In Croatian similar: podžup, požup – 'vicecomes', in the 11th century possupus, possiupus, postiuppus. Slovene dialect: špan – 'friend, compatriot', 'lover', 'house possesor (owner) – Hausbesitzer' – last meaning found in Prekmurje. Derivations: španja, španklja, probably all taken from German gespan or Hungarian ispán. Similar Croatian Kajkavian špan. It's hard to explain this word etymologically, but it's surely related to župa in meaning of 'region, district', question is what is original and what is derivation. According to the older authors there are also Old-Czech hpan, Czech pan, Polish pan, all with the same meaning 'lord, mister, gentleman', from *gъpanъ, as *geup 'to take care of, to guard, to have in charge' Because of an inscription in St. Miklos ZOAPAN and Proto-Bulgarian ZOAPAN TARKANOS, some consider that original could have come from the Avars. Oštir compares *županъ and *stupanъ, searching for the origin in Thraco-Illyrian. Budimir presents similar opinion – Paleo-Balkanic zoatanos > zoapanos. Paliga points to the Thracian origin.
AfD nomination of White Serbs An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated article is White Serbs. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Wikipedia:Notability and "What Wikipedia is not"). Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion(s) by adding your comments to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White Serbs. Please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Please note: This is an automatic notification by a bot. I have nothing to do with this article or the deletion nomination, and can't do anything about it. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 01:08, 2 February 2010 (UTC) R1bI have dared to start some work on R1b. We could do with a few updated maps if ever you get the chance. The ones in Chiaroni seem pretty useful for a lot of haplogroups. :) --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:36, 3 February 2010 (UTC) Origin of peoples - sources
CarpiHi. Long time no hear. Check out my massively expanded version of Carpi (people). Regards EraNavigator (talk) 16:51, 20 February 2010 (UTC) R1a activityHi. You might want to look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Journal_of_Genetic_Genealogy. It stems from the latest activity on R1a and its corresponding data article.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC) Your questionHi! Not sure I follow. Are you asking what % the Y chromosome is of the human male genome? It is actually very small because chromosomes all have very different sizes and the Y chromosome is relatively tiny.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:38, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Carpi etcTry this recent book, which is very comprehensive, but which I didn't discover until I had already written Carpi and Bastarnae (although I'm gratified that my comclusions are (generally) endorsed in it): BATTY, Roger (2008): Rome and the Nomads - the Pontic-Danubian region in Antiquity. EraNavigator (talk) 17:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC) We seem to move the world
FilesHi! I have just written a page Penkovka culture. Unfortunately, the file http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Origins_200_AD.png (Kiev culture and Chernyakov culture) was changed into
On current map The next map  does not show any archeological cultures, so it is unuseful for these articles. - Mibelz (talk) 04:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC) You have written: "The map of tribes is just that - a map of Slavic tribes." Of course, it is true, but because of changing the former one, there is not a map on the Sukov, Prague-Korchak, Ipoteşti-Cîndeşti, Penkovka, and Volyntsevo cultures (see, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Origins_700.png), the early 8th century). According to a famous archeologist, Professor Kazimierz Godłowski, the origins of Slavs culture should be connected with the areas of the upper Dnieper basin (the Kiev culture), while the Chernyakhov culture, as well as the Wielbark culture, with the federation of the Goths. Nowadays, the most of scientists have the same opinion. See also http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Przeworsk6.png (Archeological cultures in Eastern Europe: Przeworsk (green), Wielbark (red), West Baltic (yellow), Czernyakhov (orange), Zarubintsy (brown), Kiev culture (violet circles), the 3rd century CE), please. --Mibelz (talk) 03:20, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for an information. I have just added a Russian map (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:East_europe_3-4cc.png) on archeological cultures in Eastern Europe in 3rd-4th c. into the Kiev culture. I have also changed a title in your map. There are some differences between maps but not serious, so acceptable. --Mibelz (talk) 09:45, 21 March 2010 (UTC) RaetiCheck out my new article on the Alpine Raeti people. I'm also working on Latins (Italic tribe). Regards EraNavigator (talk) 12:38, 17 March 2010 (UTC) GepidsI used map from Euratlas as a source for that map of the 4th century Balkans and Gepids were present in that Euratlas map. However, I see that Euratlas website now uploaded another version of 4th century map where Gepids are not present, so I will check that issue in other sources and I will correct data in map if I see that it is wrong. PANONIAN 23:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Cyril and MethodiusGood references added to the Cyril and Methodius article. But given the subject of the books, could you also provide some references for the Slavic peoples article? Particularly the "Slavic migrations" paragraph which is referenced but rather short and underdeveloped. Dimadick (talk) 10:19, 17 April 2010 (UTC) ANIHello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.--Anothroskon (talk) 06:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC) Barbarians and EmpiresThanks for an information. - Mibelz (talk) 10:10, 1 May 2010 (UTC) Ancient Tribes mapHi, Hxseek, you might want to take a look at my query on the Ancient Tribes map page. Thanks, --macrakis (talk) 23:33, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi from AndrewYep, all is well. Still editing and indeed Cruciani et al still have not put anything out yet about European R1b. I suppose you realize that they did put out a good article about African R1b in the meantime.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:38, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
ThracianHi. Good to hear from you. I am still VERY interested in the Thracian language. Regards EraNavigator (talk) 08:32, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Also, the Dacian plant names often end in -DILA, -DULA or -ZILA, which is close to the Lithuanian word ŽOLĖ, which means a grass or herb e.g. Dac. STIRSO-ZILA Lith. ŠIRDA-ŽOLĖ (Centaury). Also some words derived from placenames are close to Lithuanian e.g. Dacian *atmon (= "stone") Lithuanian atmuo. Obviously, however, this evidence is too thin to draw firm conclusions. Regarding the origins of Slavic, scholarly opinion is divided about the connection between Slavic and Baltic languages. Some regard them as belonging to separate branches of Indo-European, others postulate a Balto-Slavic branch which split into Baltic and Slavic anytime between 500 BC and AD 200. I am increasingly drawn to the idea that proto-Slavic existed in the Balkans long before the Slavic migrations of the post-Roman period, especially in Dacia. As you read in my Carpi (people) article, it has been suggested that this group was Slavic, not Dacian. Also the Sarmatian Roxolani tribe that dominated the Wallachian plain in Roman times may have presided over a Slavic-speaking underclass, just as the Limigantes, the underclass of the Hungarian plain (under the Sarmatian Iazyges), may have spoken a proto- Finno-Ugric language. Any views on the above speculation? Regards EraNavigator (talk) 10:26, 12 July 2010 (UTC) Have you any views on the above. PS: I hope you have abandoned the futile analysis of genes to determine ethnic/linguistic affiliation. Recently, a study was published showing that Jewish people worldwide have some genetic affinity with the people of Judaea in Roman times, but also share many non-Judaean elements with other Europeans and Middle Easters. Well, I could have told you that without spending millions of dollars of research money! Regards EraNavigator (talk) 10:34, 12 July 2010 (UTC) Principality of BalatonI have read a very strange sentences on this page "The principality was one of the several Slavic states and groups connecting the areas inhabited by Slavs before they were divided into the northern and the southern Slavs by the conquests of the Franks, the arrival of the Magyars in Pannonia, and later by the expansion of the Romanians." Could you please help me to clear this? What did Romanians do after the Hungarian conquest. Is it true? I am foolish, I do not understand. Fakirbakir (talk) 10:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC) genetic contributionsIf I understand correctly, the biggest discussions I have seen recently on this sort of thing have revolved around recent proposals that a significant amount of Neanderthal DNA may have stayed on in Europe to this day. (Different period than you are mentioning, but same idea.) A good place to get a feel for this discussion is the blog of John Hawks, an academic who also cites his sources: http://johnhawks.net/weblog . I would however be very reluctant to agree that Anglo Saxons into England represent a case where the immigrants dominated in numbers, except maybe in some specific regions. I'd say the last "over whelming" migration into Britain was probably the Celtic pre-Roman one. But I think your main point is that even after such "over-whelming" immigrations, significant underlieing genetic presences can remain and I agree. Obviously one reason for this can be "natural selection".--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:39, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
CarpiHi. A useful contribution to the Carpi (people) debate. I see that you've been reading Batty. It's a brilliant book, don't you think? Cheers EraNavigator (talk) 10:14, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
It will deal with the spread of Slavic language. First it will deal with rougly where it developed, and how it spread from 500 onward. I will argue that it was not linked solely, if at all, with the Sklavens, or a particular pottery styles, but rather due to a number of different processes. Somewhat of a historical fluke, just like all extane langauges which enjoy widespread use. Are you saying that pan-Slavism was a propaganda tool by the Church in middle ages or modern times ? Hxseek (talk) 09:29, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
LimigantesWhy do the Limigantes re-direct to your article on the Antes? According to the 4th century Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus, the Limigantes were the indigenous inhabitants of the Hungarian Plain, who were subjugated by the Sarmatian Iazyges tribe when the latter invaded this region. The Limigantes were most probably an Illyrian people. In the 350's, they revolted against their Iazyges overlords and then invaded the Roman empire, only to be crushed by emperor Constantius II. There is no evidence of any connection to the Antes. I suggest that you "de-direct" the Limigantes from your article as soon as possible (i might want to write a mini-article on the Limigantes at some point. Cheers EraNavigator (talk) 17:03, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
SourcesDo you have any sources for the changes you are making to Scythians? Do you have any sources countering the current ones, or supporting your addition? Also, Greater Iran isn't a nationalistic term, if you bothered looking you'd see that "It roughly corresponds to the territory on the Iranian plateau, stretching from the Caucasus to the Indus River in Pakistan." I'm a Scots-Irish American, and I don't see why anyone would so offended by the term "Greater Iran". Ian.thomson (talk) 23:49, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
|RfC suggestion
CivilityBesides WP:NPF, I note that editors who use insults are often not taken as seriously as editors who are polite. Please consider refactoring or striking out any uncivil comments. Dougweller (talk) 10:24, 21 October 2010 (UTC)  You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Hello, Slovenski Volk. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The discussion is about the topic Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#Hxseek. Thank you. --Ian.thomson (talk) 12:36, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
BlockedI had hoped to see this over without the need for blocks (as Dougweller had suggested the other day), but given the renewed edit-warring yesterday (3R on your side just now, when you had broken 3RR already a bit earlier) leaves me little choice but to block. Please note that I have also blocked HonestopL, and for a somewhat longer period. While your block is for edit-warring, his is for disruptive editing. I note that I believe his failure to engage in meaningful discussion about the misrepresentation of sources has been a main factor in causing this situation. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:00, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
ScythiansHi. I'm sorry you're having trouble with this problem-editor. If it's any consolation, yours is not an uncommon situation. Unfortunately, there is not much I can tell you about how to handle it, beyond advising you not to get drawn into an edit-war. I think the best response is to simply ignore the guy's activities until he loses interest, and, after a long interval, return to the article and erase all his edits. You need to talk to a Supervisor: from above, it seems that's already happening. I would refer you to Flamarande, who knows his way around Wikipedia far better than Ido, and who has helped me on some minor issues in the past. As regards the substance of the argument, I don't at this moment have the time to get involved. Sorry I can't help more. EraNavigator (talk) 20:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC) Proto-SlavsI made the following comment in the current discussion of my Costoboci article and I would like to hear your opinion on it:
Thanks for that informative discursus. I agree with the general thrust, but would question some details.
Sorry, I hadn't finished: The Armorican Veneti spoke Gaulish Celtic, and probably called themselves gwened. Julius Caesar fought a tough war against them during his conquest of Gaul in 54 BC. For his memoirs, Caesar Latinised the name as Veneti because of the obvious similarity with the name of the Italic tribe. (The same name was also used by a cognate Celtic tribe of NW Wales, which survives today as the name of an administrative region Gwynedd (pronounced Gwyneth): interestingly, the Romans Latinised this one vas Venedoci, not Veneti, presumably to distinguish from the Armorican group - a number of British Celtic tribes had the same names as Gallic ones: Atrebates, Belgae, Parisii etc).
But Tacitus' own evidence, taken together, vague as it is, is also a strong pointer to this people being Slavic. First, the huge expanse of territory he says the Veneti inhabited (not just the Vistula region, but all the way from the Gulf of Bothnia to the Black Sea). Second, the fact that they existed East of the Germanic tribes. Third, the fact that he was unsure whether to categorise them as Germans or Sarmatians. Granted, he debates the distinction in terms of their material culture and lifestyle. But he makes clear that, like most Germans, they were sedentary or semi-sedentary, so there must be something else to distinguish them from the Germans. Nor is it just a vague geographical term for all peoples living East of a certain line, like the Vistula, because he distinguishes them from other large ethnic groups in the same area, the Fenni (probably Finno-Ugric) and the Sarmatians themselves. Taking all this together with Jordanes' identification of the Veneti as Slavic and his statement that the other two groups he calls Slavic, the Sclaveni and Antes, descended from the Veneti, it seems likely that name-shift has not occurred in this case. If so, then the implication is that in AD 100, Slavic-speakers were already dominant in European Russia as they are today. EraNavigator (talk) 12:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
South Slavic tribesHi, i saw a Problem in your File Slavic tribes in the Balkans.png with the Tribe of the Draguvites. They lived in the Thema Macedonia (theme), or in the ancient Region Macedonia (region), but not in booth of them. Greetings --Vammpi (talk) 14:01, 31 October 2010 (UTC) Vah SlavsCould you replace name of Vah Slavs by Nitravans? Vah Slavs is not correct name of ancestors of Nitravans (or Slovaks) who established Principality of Nitrava in the 9th century which was incorporated with Moravia to Empire of Great Morava. Vah Slavs is not used by any historians. Thanks --Kristo (talk) 09:33, 9 November 2010 (UTC) I forgot to note which pictures: File:Origins_700.png File:Slavic tribes in the Balkans.png --Kristo (talk) 09:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC) Image source problem with File:GlobalR1a1a.png Thank you for uploading File:GlobalR1a1a.png. This image is a derivative work, containing an "image within an image". Examples of such images would include a photograph of a sculpture, a scan of a magazine cover, or a screenshot of a computer game or movie. In each of these cases, the rights of the creator of the original image must be considered, as well as those of the creator of the derivative work. While the description page states who made this derivative work, it currently doesn't specify who created the original work, so the overall copyright status is unclear. If you did not create the original work depicted in this image, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you have uploaded other derivative works, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have created in your upload log. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the image is copyrighted under a non-free license (per Wikipedia:Fair use) then the image will be deleted 48 hours after 16:22, 4 December 2010 (UTC). If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Magog the Ogre (talk) 16:22, 4 December 2010 (UTC) Bulgar's ethnogenesisHi, you should read this: "The Bulgars proper appear to have originated as an Indo-European people in Eastern Persia and Bactria. They were somehow co-opted into the Hunnic confederacy after migrating westwards. After Attila’s death in 453, the Bulgars withdrew to the northern and eastern coasts of the Black sea together with various Turkic and Hunnic remnants of the confederation." This is written by a historian from University of Michigan and I think it supports your ethnogenesis approach.Scheludko (talk) 06:50, 11 December 2010 (UTC) WikiProject Dacia --Codrin.B (talk) 17:22, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
January 2011
Notes by & for HxseekConceptions in Euro History-> FN 26, Hornblower Greek personal names: their value as evidence. Hornblower. The Greek world. Hornblower Oxford companion to classical civilization -> 300 tumuli burials in vergina
Elbe -> Bohemia
• imhumations in coffins or burial chambers appearff in 1st or second century ‘princely graves’ north opf Elbe ? adoption of Roman rite (17) • continued into 3rd century in Jutlan, Elbe-Saal, Slovakia, then decline • another spurt in 4th and 5th, asspc with increased contact with Rome. • Orientation varied from N-S to E-W. • The Reihengraberkreis might have resulted from spread of Gothic type inhumation due to Hunnic hegemony ion central European Rhine-Elbe-middle Danube zone. 918) • Lombards in latter hjald 5th century Bohemia were part of this culture. Cemeteries however, number in mere scores (~ 30s). • Somecemeteries continued as late as mid 6th century (18-19) {he gives no clear reference for this) • Sees co-terminous settlement of Slavs and Lombards in Brezno (19-20; ref vana: World of Ancient Slavs) Bohemia -> Pannonia • Rugiland, b/w Wald- & Weinviertal in NE Lower Austria ruled since 450s bu Rugi. East were Suevi and W were heruli. (20) Acc. To Vita Severini, the Noricans aid tribute to the Rugi. • Odoacer had deposed the last western Emperor in 476, (?nominally) ruled Noricum and Raetia. Attacked rRUgi in 487-8, killing their king. The heruli either incoporated into Italy, as were apparently Noricans (Vit Sev 42, 44), other Rugi fled to Ostrogoths. (20-1) {See Mathias “Bavarians” and Burns for Raetian archaeology} • Rugiland merely shows a blended ‘Germano’Roman’ material culture, nothing specific “Rugian’. Some spectaculrprincely burials during Hnnic era. (21) • Late 5th century sees number of sizeable cemeteries, often into 6th century, ontemporary with siotes sth of Danube and along Morava on Austro-Slovak border. (21) • Battle with Heruls early 500s, culimating with ‘battle of Feld” 508. (22). Defeated hErules, then allies of Ostrogothic Italy. Modern Moravia shows rowgrave cemeteries from this time (490-530) • inRugiland, cemeteries from late 5th century , with weapons, brooches and other jewellery in females tombs (23) • part of broader Merovingian context of late 5th, early 6th century (24) • the pottery of these cemeteries shows close resemblance to that on Bohemia, middle Elbe (24), with designs (beaker like vessels, ribbed or biconial bowls, either plain or decorated with icedents. • From the Fled, wide-moutherm, wheel tunred burnished pottery appears, representing survival of ‘local pottery tradition’. Also in pannonia and Herulia Nth of Danube, suggesting an relative production boom under Lombard patronage. • Lombard cemeteirs near former Roman forts (eg carnuntum). Structures inside forts are non-specific , clay or dry-bonded structures, occasional stray finds, burniehsed wares. (25) • Attaempts to classify “Germanic” and native burials in Feld by presence and type of grave goods. (25-6) IN Pannonia • Lombards defeat Suevi ~ 526 (32), ie when they are calculated to have enterted Panonia • Gothis till 526 (also when Theodiric died) had probably ruled souythern Pannonia (Savia and Sirmiensis), whilst their Suevic allies ruled north of Danube and south of it, down to lake Balaton. (33). • Sees ethnic Suevic, Herul, Roman elemets in Hegyko finds (34) • Acc. To PD, Audion lef the Lombards into Pannonia , c. 547. This must mean souther, Gothic held Pannonia. Ass allied of Byzsantines, who attacked Gothic Italy, they occupied Pannonia. (35). Trhe Gepids had become problematic, holding Sirmium, and raiding from there, c. 546/ 7. Justinian gave the Lombards city of NBoricum and other forts in Pannonia, incl money. (Procopius). Thus this is when ombards movedf soth of Danube. • Lombard – Gepid wars 547052, 565-7. (36) • Lombardss sent 3000 armed retainers + 2500 warrios, in addition to 3000 Herules, numerous, Huns, and 400 Gepids to face Totila at Taginae (36). This gave the Lombards a ‘taste’ of Italy (37) • Bona has argued 3 distinct typs of cemeteries, which represent chronological phases and/ or ethnic compomnenets. (from Dawn of Dark Ages) (38) 1. Hegyko: Predominatly Suevic – Herul;ian metalwork in burials (large bow-brooches), as well as native. Few “Lombard’ elements also. (39) Some burials might date prior to Lombard arrival 2. Scentendre type: further south from lake Ferro, near castella, castra and burgi. Large cemeteries (80-100 graves), connections with Lombars phases in Austria, Bohermia, esp in grave ritual (deeply cut graves, with tree-trunk coffins or post-built mortuyary hosues), as well as pottery. Older, Thuringian hand-made pottery replaced by globular potse, beakers, flasks with burnished decoration, wavy lines or stamped ornament. Are also then found in Moravia, continued contacts. He stamped pottery, he argues, is of Saxon inspiration, and is also found during their Italian phase, although disappears rapidly. (39-41) 3. vars-Kajdacs. southern Pannonia. Fairly short-term cemeteries. Finds hark little resemblences to pre-Danubian times, and have most paralleles with Italian material. • Short and long swords, lances and shiled found in mens graves (45) • Developed own stuyule of Animal style part I whch originated in northern Europe from 5th century. Cp,bined with Mediteranean meander and spiral patterns, Throughout 5th century central Europe. (45) • No Lombard settlements have been found (48), but would expect them to be similar to Gepid or Slavic settlements huts, ie SFBs. • Justinian is said to have ‘donated’ many towns and castles to the Lombards. Direct proof of this is hard to find. Indeed, many of type 2 and 3 Lombard finds cluster around foerm castella, etc. hwoever, it is dabatable whether these forts were occupied by Lombards, and if so, permanently or temporarily. Only see occasional stray finds (eg stamped pottery, brooches). Lack context thus we cannot be certain of their provenance. (49) what it does seem is that they are found predominantly alonf forts facing Danube (Cibalae, Annamatia, Scarbantia, Brigetio, Carnuntum. These forts show evidence of timber built or rubble built housees inserted into late Roman structures (49-50) The concentration matches that of Gepid finds and settlements on parallel course of Tizsa, with ‘no-mans’land’ in between. (55) • Discusses Keszthely-Fenekpuszta (50-52). • Rurally, there is occasional correlation b/w Roman villa and Lombard cemetery. (53) argues some existed beyond Lombard rule (1) {Rarch of Roman Pannoani, p 312-20}. • Some evidence of ‘Lombard’ persistence in Pannonia after 568. (65). Eg Korbnye, 152 graves, incl 20 horse burials. Finds: composite bows, triple-winged arrowheads, lancehweads, horse stirrups, jhewellery dated to late 6ht, early 7th centry. Also Germanic dress items. Lack of Mongoloid physical types (66). • The evidence for continued Lombard presence further west, in Apline foothills more apparent, though interpretation difficult. (66) Ptuj, Celje, Velike Malence, Kranj (Poetovio, Celeia, Noviodunum, Carnium, resp) were also given in Justinian’s donation. These site show late Roman and OStrogothic presence into late 6ht century hill-top sties, but only single finds from later, eg ssstamped pot in Velike Malence, Lombard coin og Cletf (572-4) in Rifnik. • Slavic and Avar ‘inroads’ is undocumented here. (67) Scholars have used the disappearance of bishprics to date their invasions: Ptuj and Celije disappear after 587, Emona (Ljubljana) soon after. • One fortlet, Pviko (near naklo), 5 km NE of Kranj, shows numerous Slavic’ arrowheads. (A Valic. Gradisce nad Pivko pri Naklem. Arheolosi Vestnik, Acta Archaeologica, xix (1968), 485-508 • Some cemeteries (Devinska Nova Ves) show mixed inhimation – cremation burials. Mixed ‘Slav & ‘Avar’ burials. {Vana, Slavs , 66-72) Italy • Ostrogoths archaeologicall difficult to see in Italy. Only females were buried with fibulae and grave goods. Male dress items only from hoards or stray (see heather, Wolfram p 284-306) finds. Ie males adopted Italo-Meditteranean styles (c/f Perbundos). (71) • Byzantine conquest completed by 553 (72) • By 400 AD, the late Roman defensive belt – Claustra Alpium Iularum had ceased operating. Defense shifted inward, to uplands and strategic forts. One such fort which has been excavated and published, Ibligo (invillino) shows a nucleation from ~ 5400-30, then continuous occupation to 7th century, with little ethnic identifiers. (76) No destruction level in late 6th century. • Substantial Lombard presence in Cividale, due to strategic position. • Interesting ‘Bulgar’ burials at Vicenne & Morrione. W-E aligned graves in rows, earth-cut mostly, weapins (arrowheads, stirrups,) belt straps, earrings. ? Duke Alzec’s Bulgars givben land by Gromoald. (98) {PD}. • Several thousand Lombard cemeteries known in Italy. (127) near Turin (Testona), Castel Trosino, Friuli (incl Cividale ++). Ice conc in northern Italy, but few in CE Italy. • Weapon burials concentrae in Friuli- due to higher conc of colonists and its military character (129) into 7th century. Conversion ceased grave goods, offering little to see by mid 8th century. (127) • The office –breagin elites contained gold jewellery, dres fititings, rich weaponry stes. 9130-1). Dated to 600-660, eg in Trezzo sull’Adda nmear Monza. Expressions of authority • ‘Romanizaion’ is best followed by female brooches and male belt fittings. From period of 600 to 650, see change from ‘animal style’ motidfs to Byzantine-style./ Avar. Female brooches : animal stuyle bow brocach, Roman-style disc brooch, then cross broaches (Mediterranean’). (136-7) Gold sheet crosses- shape obviously Christian, decoration in animal style. From late 6th century. Pottery- initaly of Pannonian tradition: handmade, stamped decoration or wavy-line, stop after 600. The crosses are also foud in Franco-Alamannic regions. (140) • Small, open coutry sites were most vulnerable to war and raids (163). Moved to upland or fortified sites. Fortified vills -> nucleated villages as peasants were rallied around by estate owners. • Progressive decline in rural settlement in Itlay from 3rd century AD, accelerated in 5th and 6th (163-4). Hard to identify because decline of impoted, datable fine wares. Return to wattle-daub hosues and hand-made pottery. (164). Near Apulia and Ligura, evidence of cave use in 5th cntruy ! (165). • 168 discusses componenets of ‘natives’ and ‘Lombards’ in verona, Brescia, et al according to basis of grave-goods, until they stop altogether c. 700 AD • Return to iroan age settlement pattern of fortified hilltops, indicating decay of centralized military and administrative control. (180) some of these sites appear to be direct successors of earlier low-klying towns. Argues are primarily local intiitve for defense, and not an elaborate systematic strategy (181). Material traces in hilltops are often fragmentary and difficult to date. Amory p 38 on Gremanic names and their significance
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