I probably wouldn't have been the best person to help you anyway, as the technical aspects of Wikipedia tend to be beyond me, but I'm always glad to at least make an attempt. Cheers, Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 23:50, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good to hear from you! I've laughed myself half sick, by the way, over your "Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which this user will not put." You may have to adopt me, if there's room under your wing. When can I vote for you for the Board? SergeWoodzing (talk) 04:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ingeborg of Norway
Have you read this book? There are hundreds of thousands of women who were mother of kings withouth having the title of queen mother. That it a title. She was not even de facto queen mother, only de facto mother of a king. If we intend to use that for all mother of kings who were not queen mothers, then there would be many more to add to this. This phrase: don't make changes just to make changes! is something you use toward me to make me sound like a non-serious editor, because I have insulted your pride in a previous discussion. You also lectured me because you were offended when I gave you advice earlier. I gave you advice to make an article as good as possible, not in the intent to insult you, and I will not be offended when you try to do the same with me. This is not very mature, nor is it very usefull of you as an editor. But if it is important to you to restore your pride this way, then I will happily let this be. I hope your damaged pride are somewath restored by this, so that you can return to the good work you have done before. And once again: I am very sorry that I have wounded your pride. Again: this was not my intention. As I am not myself interested in status or prestige, I may lack sensitivity toward these feelings in others. As a woman, I am well aware of the fact that men in academic circles tend to lock themselwes in their positions if their pride and prestige have been offended. Please try to keep wounded pride and such things out of your work as an editor, and not let them affect the so far very good work you do. My appology is sensere, and for your sake, and to give you the chance to revocer your hurt feelings, I will refrain from making further edits on wikipedia for a while. I will also try do avoid going in to discussions with you in the future. I am not hurt in any way wathsoever, I have the outmost respect for you, and I hope you can forgive all hurt feelings I may have caused you due to my insensitivity. Please forgive me. I do not require any reply from you, in this page or in the Ingeborg- and queen mother pages, and will not look for any replys on these pages either: if you write them, I will no read them. Please let us cut all further contact: I said I was not interested in prestige, and I ment it, so to me, such discussions will mean nothing more than two people making themselwes feel bad. Again: my appologies! Regards, --85.226.43.148 (talk) 11:26, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Helena Mattsson
I'm not certain it's vandalism, per se, in that I suspect it's well-intentioned. It looks to me like he thinks he has a picture that would be better than the one in there now, and can't figure out how to put it in. Of course, it's likely that if he does have such an image, it's non-free and therefore unsuitable for use here. Anyway, I've reverted his most recent round of edits and left him a note on his talk page; hopefully we'll get this straightened out. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 06:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Swedish administrators
I don't know of any offhand, and this search to find admins at the Swedish Wikipedia who are also editors here didn't turn up any names that I recognized. This fellow is an admin both here and at sv-wiki, so he might be somebody to ask, though he hasn't been editing much lately (and doesn't have e-mail enabled). Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 17:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am really sorry
I am really sorry that you interpreted my admission of possibly being dense and having paroquial views as being a snide attempt to accuse you of accusing me of it. Fact is that I am sometimes dense and that we all have a tendency to being paroquial in our views sometimes. When i said that I may be dense I meant that it may be obvious that there is a more global view, but that I am somehow not seeing it possibly because of my admittedly paroquial outlook on the description of Danish history. I really was not trying to be snide or pick a fight with you. I apologize for coming off as sarcastic and unforthcoming - it was NOT my intention.·Maunus·ƛ·17:17, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, you prove yourself to be a gentleman. I am very sensitive about having any messages left here that are not necessary. This one was quite welcome. Thank you! I hope we can cooperate on some future work. Sincerely, SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:25, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How and where can one comment on your review of James Brown (with which I agree)? I would like to improve (shorten) the one image caption you mentioned to neutralize it and mention that so had been done as a comment under your point about it in your review. I would also like to comment about the main photo at the top of the page, which I feel is very bad as a representative portrait of Brown and out of the question as such for a good article. Cordially, SergeWoodzing (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:55, 17 August 2009 (UTC).[reply]
Well, sorry about that - of course I did not mean to be rude. I was just trying to explain why I considered your suggestion to be impracticable. I apologise for the other user, who should know better. Deb (talk) 20:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much! I was quite taken aback by the hostility from that end. Gloomy forecast for me to do much good with royalty articles, huh? Since I hate to argue with people who are (habitually?) nasty. SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Image problems
Wow, you weren't kidding! I just deleted the lot of them instead of flooding PUF with what are surely images stolen from around the Web. The uploader has also been blocked for a while. Thanks for the heads-up. (ESkog)(Talk)21:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your opinion
Hello, Serge! I can see you are very interested in Swedish royalty, so I'd like to know what's your opinion on gender equality in the House of Bernadotte.
I suppose that you support equal primogeniture. My favourite type of primgeniture is cognatic (male-preferance) primgeniture. I do not like agnatic (male-only) primogeniture because it is nice to see a female monarch from time to time; however, I do not like equal primogeniture either because it is not equal enough.
The engagement of the Crown Princess of Sweden made me think about the future of the House of Bernadotte. Dniel will not be Crown Prince of Sweden and I can partially understand that (though wives of heirs apparent share their spouse's title), but how is that justified? Daniel will probably not be king either (though wives of kings are queens and Carl XVI Gustaf's wife is queen). That's why I don't like equal primogeniture - it's not equal. Husbands of queens regnant are not styled as kings because it is presumed that the masculine title of king outranks the feminine title of queen. Is that gender equality? Is this inequality somehow justified in Sweden?
Also, the Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland's future husband won't be prince of Sweden. On the other hand, it wouldn't make sense for her brother's wife not to be princess (assuming her brother marries with the consent). However, if the future Duchess of Värmland is made a princess, the issue of inequality will (or should) definitely arise.
Hi Surtsicna! I agree with you whole-heartedly about the half-hearted pseudo-equality as it is developing in Sweden, especially in the last step with the almost shocking news that Bergström will not be prince. Unfortunately this kind of half-heartedness is rather typical in Sweden. Things started getting that way, and have gotten worse and worse, since King Gustaf V decided not to have a coronation back in 1907. Deteriorated to the point where the current king sat next to the Throne (on a fancy chair) when Victoria was installed in 1995 as of age to be regent, which I thought was embarassing and looked ridiculous. Though 80% of the people want the monarchy the Swedish royals and their court keep treading on ice which is imaginarily thin (as felt by them). They are aware that anything they might do that could be considered too much will be used against them very loudly by political opponents.
Re: being King consort, I feel that is a matter of history and language more than equality. Prince consort has already been pretty firmly established, as has king for rulers exclusively. Principally, however, of course you are right there too. SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
PS - Generally, re: inheritance of any and all kinds, I think female such would have made more sense even in our culture (as it has in many other societies in anthropology), but that is actually a more utopian thought. Today, I think male inheritance makes more sense than before, with the condition that there now always should be DNA tests involved whenever any inheritance of major importance comes up. Here I do like more recent Swedish legislation giving full inheritance to any child born in or out of wedlock (you cannot write your children out of your will in Sweden). SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:54, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with all of your statements - and I mean all. The way they (most of European monarchs) treat tradition and monarchy is disgusting. Discarding coronation is also a shame. They suddenly decided that it was not democratic. What's undemocratic about coronation? Is the UK undemocratic? Sure, it is unequal and unfair for a younger male to precede his older sister, but monarchy is meant to be unequal and unfair; is it fair for someone to be head of state just because of his/her ancestry? My point is: if they keep going towards equality, Sweden will end up as en elective monarchy. I am a monarchist, but if I can't have a traditionally unequal and unfair monarchy, I would rather have a republic than a Scandinavian type of monarchy.
Yes, prince consort has already been firmly established, but so has been agnatic primogeniture. If the latter is abolished on the basis of not being neutral, why was the former kept? I know we're right, but is this inequality somehow justified in Sweden? Surtsicna (talk) 10:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I might attempt to get that last question to go public in Sweden when we get a little closer to these marriage events. Thank you for inspiring me to do so! SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:28, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So, if I understand — Karl Knutsson knew his proper number was II, and put that on his wife's gravestone; but the next Karl (perhaps unaware of this) called himself IX, and his predecessors were retrospectively renumbered. How do you like my latest change? —Tamfang (talk) 19:17, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The version before my error was a bit ambiguous: it said II was the first to use a number, but didn't explicitly say what number he used. —Tamfang (talk) 20:50, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All correctly understood and very nicely fixed now. Thank you! # IX intentionally exaggerated the importance of his name by adding 6 fictitious Carls to the list between him and # II; he and later Carls also tried to cover up that tombstone info which was not published until 1820. The stone is still there today and quite legibly reads that she was the wife of Caroli Secundi. SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's is a very sharp question. It is generally thought that Carl IX knew he was actually Carl III but added Carls before him for his own glorification. The subsequent and consequential tradition of numbering Carl I as VII and Carl II as VIII would however be based on the 6 having been counted as having existed before Carl I, which they did not. Carl I (Sweartgarson) of course never used his (correct) numeral of I because he didn't know there would ever be more Carls after him. The name was unusual and relatively new in Scandinavia then, having meandered in due course into the nomenclature there via Germany, it is thought, after Charlemagne's reign as emperor. SergeWoodzing (talk) 05:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
English name forms of Swedish royals
That would be an entirely non-controversial and useful addition. Go for it! In fact, if the English name form is more common among English-language sources, we should use it as the title of the article. For example, Rikissa of Sweden should be moved to Richeza of Sweden because the name Richeza is more familiar to the speakers of English; it should also be consistent with the name of her daughter, Elisabeth Richeza of Poland, and of another Polish queen, Richeza of Lotharingia. Surtsicna (talk) 08:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Hope all goes well with it. Re: retitling some articles, I will get back to you on that with kind of a comprehensive proposal I am thinking up to bring all the Swedish royals into a more consistent format - Catherine, not Karin for example. (Don't go worrying about those maiden names/counties for the consorts now, that won't be a part of it). At first I thought I would make new title suggestions as I go along, looking through each article in alphabetical order, and fix a host of Swedishisms etc, but changing some of the main titles first is probably a better idea. Cordially, SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you completely. I am always frustrated when somebody claims that a medieval person's real name is the name used today by the people who live in that person's country. How can one argue that Wikipedia should refer to a certain Juana (known as Juanita to her family) who was christened Iohanna and who married into England and became Jane by her real name?! Anyway, I'm glad we agree. Surtsicna (talk) 18:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What's nice in this regard about Swedes is that not one of them had a legal name (or spelling of same) until a name law was passed in 1901. So before then, there were no "real names" there that can be forced upon people who use other languages and their phonetics. After 1900 (as a cut-off time) I am usually very particular about adhering to legal spellings (Gustaf not Gustav for example) and not to translate any Swedish names. We should thus name 20th and 21st century Swedes (and others), I think, exactly by the names they had/have in their legal ID's. SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:19, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that it is far more important for us to use legitimate and phonetically viable English-language name forms in titling articles than to count usage elsewhere in each and every case. Obviously, the lesser-known royals of Sweden rarely, if ever, have have been written about in English by native-English-speakers, rather they have been covered in English usually, if at all, by Swedes with (1) little or no knowledge of the legitimate English name forms they could/should have used; and/or (2) with little or no interest in researching such things to do a better job; and/or (3) with some interest in promoting the use of Swedish phonetics in English at the dire expense of the English reader who knows no Swedish. I feel confident that known and respected authorities (to me at least) like Debrett's and Burke's Peerage would agree with using English name forms without ever tallying up what Swedes have written in English. I invite any constructive comments to these assumptions of mine here, comments primarlity then by users basically qualified to write about English and the feasible use of this language. SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think consistency is much more important between these namesake queens and that the addition of "Queen of..." always is a good idea: a necessary clarification of who these women are and not at all clumsy. Thus, I do not agree with you re: Catherine either. Only some British people might know that there has only been one Catherine of Aragon in history and that she, thus named, must be that Queen of England we may have heard of. I don't think en.WP is supposed to cater mainly to what Brits might know. There is no British WP (that I know of - perhaps there should be?).
Seems you could be content in using their nationalities/names before marriage, as I know you are adamant about (and I have conceded on quite remorsefully), and that you then might not want to confuse things even more, in my opinion, by refraining - on rather flimsy grounds (to me, sorry!) - from having their most important position in the article titles. If in one title, let's have it in all, so a majority of readers will have any chance at all to figure out what we are up to! I am a great lover of the strictest possible consistency because I have seen it triumph unquestionably over contrived inconsistency thousands of times in creating much more clarity and much smoother usage. Please forgive me!
I also believe just as much in a global perspective for all WP projects as I do in using the best possible English to reflect it.
Looks like you are not in the least afraid that the ghost of a slighted Richeza of Denmark is going to haunt you (I would be), while the other queens rest contentedly in their graves, properly titled in the #1 international language of our times? SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Before we get deep into this discussion, you should propose including queenly titles here. (Un)fortunatly, I don't think you'll be supported. Why? Because including queenly titles in one group of articles and excluding kingly titles in another group of articles doesn't make sense. Furthermore, the title should be the person's most common name, rather than a whole description of the person. I do not understand your argument regarding Catherine of Aragon; I am Bosnian, not British, and when I open the article about Catherine of Aragon, the lead sentence explains perfectly that she was Queen of England. The title doesn't need to be Catherine of Aragon, Queen of England, Princess of Wales, wife of Henry VIII, daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella for me to understand that she was Queen of England, Princess of Wales, wife of Henry VIII, and daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella. Had she been the only Catherine in the world, the article would be titled simply Catherine. She is not, of course, the only Catherine, but she is the only Catherine of Aragon and thus further disambiguation is unnecessary.
Regarding maiden names... I understand your concern that these women are somehow deprived, but you have to understand that Wikipedia is not able to invent names for people. Every respected historian refers to Anne Boleyn as Anne Boleyn (not Anne of England, as Anne of England is another person). The same is true for other queens consort; we cannot suddenly decide to refer to Blanche of Castile as Blanche of France because a) she is best known as Blanche of Castile, b) other women are known as Blanche of France. I hope you understand my point.
About ghosts... I am more afraid that the ghosts of the Polish Richeza's will haunt me because their articles are inconsistent with most other articles about queens, but they must be inconsistent for the sake of disambiguation. I hope Their Late Majesties will forgive me :) Surtsicna (talk) 21:08, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The more you argue these points, the less I agree. But I must say your excellent English had me fooled. Congratulations, sincerely! You are as good as native. I dearly wish a lot of other people who imagine they are, were. You didn't have to ridicule my POV like this: "Catherine of Aragon, Queen of England, Princess of Wales, wife of Henry VIII, daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella". I get your POV without your resorting to that kind of nonsense. Catherine of Aragon, Queen of England would do just fine. And bringing up kings is of course almost totally irrelevant, except perhaps where Eric of Pomerania should be Eric of Denmark, Norway and Sweden (there has only been one such of note) or at least Eric of Pomerania, King of Scandinavia. Quite simply put, the pivotal fact, for their notoriety, that these women were queens and the pivotal countries of which they were queens belong in their names if they are to be called (wrongly in my opinion) what their names were before marriage but definitely were not after marriage. I am writing something to put on my user page about some of these things so I don't have to repeat them over and over. It is excrutiatingly tiresome. I don't know how you can stand it. That little text will soon be finished. Till then, good-bye. SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for thinking that I was a native speaker of English. It means a lot to me. If only you knew how young I am... Anyway, sorry for ridiculing your POV, it certainly wasn't my intention. However, your POV (as well as my POV) is a POV and as such it doesn't belong to Wikipedia.
The more we argue, the less we agree. This discussion should be led by more people on a more appropriate place - here.
You have asked for my oppinion, so I will give it. I think queens should be refferred to by their maiden names. For example: Marie Antoinette was never called ”Marie Antioinette of France”. She was called : ”Marie Antioinette, Queen of France, or : ”Queen Marie Antoinette of France”, but never : ”Marie Antioinette of France”. During her life time, she was the only queen in Fance, and known only as Marie Antoinette, or ”the Queen”; not even then as ”Marie Antioinette of France”. ”Queen” is a title, not a name. In history books, and in reference books, queen are called by the form: ”Marie Antoinette of Austria ”, or perhaps only by their first name. The term ”Marie Antoinette of France” reffers to a Princess of France, not to a Queen of France.
If whe always used the form: ”Marie Antoinette of Austria, Queen of France”, we will have problems. There may be many with the same names and position. This we can avoid by adding the years (1755-1793), to a princess with the same name. The term : ”Marie Antoinette of Austria, Queen of France” is only used when there are two princesses with the same name. If the dates of birth and deaths are known, those can also be used. If we use this term for all queens, even when it is not necessary, then we would have titles such as: ”Hedwig Elizabeth Charlotte of Holstein-Gottorp, Queen of Sweden and Norway”, and that is too long.
You say, that queens should be called by their queen-title because that would be polite, as it was their highest title. In that case, there a royal princesses who married counts and dukes. Would you then have them be called by their birth titles, because their married titles are lower? In that case, there would be different rules depending on the status of marriage for different princesses, and that would be chaos.
This is my opinion of the matter. I am pleased with wikipedia’s current policy as it is, and I have no wish to contest it. If you wich to contest it, then of course you may do so, and see if there is such a support for your POV that this policy can be changed. In that case, I will follow the new policy even if I don’t agree with that. That is all I have to say in the matter, I’m affraid. I am not very interested in discussions, and seldom participate in them. I wish you good luck! The very best wishes,--Aciram (talk) 13:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Serge, frequent use does outrank English as sometimes the non-English form of the name is the most commonly used form of the name among reliable English language sources. For example, the article about Charlemagne should never use the English form of its name, which is Charles the Great, as he is simply better known as Charlemagne (even in English and way better known, for that matter). It would also be silly to refer to Maria II of Portugal as Mary II of Portugal - if you do a quick Google Book Search, you'll see that the former name is 60 times more popular than the latter name. Surtsicna (talk) 21:06, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It shouldn't. Charlemagne must be considered an English name officially adopted for him in English centuries ago. He has never been called Charles the Great in English (I know I reacted to that in grade school History already). Charlemagne isn't even any language, anyway, today. It's all his and only his. SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:15, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My argument is that people who write English poorly, as that particular user does (notwithstanding my possible error with the slang word lede) should not dominate, nay own, certain articles where they obviously do damage to English-language content with less than knowledgeable POV. I feel that it is important for us to protect en.WP against such destructive editing. But I am about to give up and pull out. SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:54, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Talk:Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark. I appreciate your asking about moving a discussion to the bottom but I think it would be appreciated if you waited until after you asked your question to do so, rather than asking and doing it at the same time. It disrupts how the conversation naturally progressed and may confuse other editors. It confused me until I looked at the revision history several times. Thank you! 142.68.80.29 (talk) 22:51, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Serge, it is not prohibited and there is a very good reason: to link the offending issue to the discussion directly related to it. Go to Frederik,_Crown_Prince_of_Denmark and look at the infobox with Frederick's picture in it. Where it says "House House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg[1][2][3][4][dubious – discuss]", "discuss" links to Talk:Frederik,_Crown_Prince_of_Denmark#Dubious automatically. The discussion heading should be "dubious" so the link on the article page links to the discussion. Again, please show me where the changing of a discussion heading is prohibited (you yourself attempted to offer a compromise by changing the heading without restoring it to the original form) when the change is meant to aid editors in contributing to the discussion. There is more concern with Law Lord's formatting by moving parts of the discussion which were so confusing it made it appear as if you did it. 142.68.80.29 (talk) 23:17, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If sufficient reason is not given and if there are no rules against changing the discussion heading to better aid interest editors in finding the relevant thread, I will change the heading after a little while and made the others into subheadings. 142.68.80.29 (talk) 23:19, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you ever want any heading changed, ask an administrator to do it for you! I am trying to give you very good advice here so that no one can accuse you of being disruptive. SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:21, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will not ask an administrator to do something that is not an administrative function. It is disruptive to the Wikipedian process to go to an admin each and every time a heading must be changed when it is a function any user can perform. Thus far with regard to the change of the heading, you are the only person implying that I am being disruptive and therefore are creating that attitude by agreeing with, yet reverting, a heading change. 142.68.80.29 (talk) 23:26, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Headings are hardly ever changed (!!!) so that isn't likely to disrupt any administrator. People need to be able to find old headings they have seen before. I am not implying that you are being disruptive, I am trying to give you good advice so that no one (else) can accuse you of being disrputive. There is a big difference. Administrators are supposed to help us with very unusual things like changing a heading that has been in on a disussion page for over a year. That's why they are administrators. Anyway the new heading format is fine the way it is now, as I hope you will agree. SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:33, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, let me note that, in answering your question, I am so far outside my area of expertise that I can't even see it from here (hey, over there, is that a Premier of Alberta? No, sorry, it was just a dust mote in my eye. My mistake). At a glance, I would say that it makes some sense to change them to Carl; the Swedish royal court seems to be a fairly important source to consider, though of course there's also the question of what other English language sources say. I'd suggest that this might be a case where boldness is ill-advised, though; is there a reasonably central article whose talk page you could raise the topic? If so, let me know and I'll do what I can to moderate discussion on it. Steve Smith (talk) 18:33, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I had already understood that boldness is out on this one. Hope your eye is better so you'll be able to read what we're going to start on one of the kings' talk pages soon. Your being moderator, maybe even like a boxing referee (watch that eye!), will be greatly appreciated. SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:23, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll withhold comment on any flame wars that may be developing. He can be a little rough around the edges at times (can't we all?), but he is very knowledgeable about early Icelandic history and other Old Norse-type stuff, and he has made a lot of valuable contributions around here. I would just keep WP:COOL and encourage everyone else to do the same. Thanks for the ref, by the way. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 02:56, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have also noticed his wonderful qualifications on those eubjects as well as his fine contributions. Where he crosses a line, in my opinion, is in acting like a big expert on the English language as well. So many users like that make life really miserable for us at times on en.WP, especially when we appreciate them for other expertise. Thanx for you candid reply! Much appreciated. Sincerely, SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I understand where you're coming from. I hope it's not becoming a problem. By the way, while I consider myself proficient, I'm no expert, and if the 's convention is preferred, feel free to change it back. I just did it the way I learned in school. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 10:30, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Margaret I of Denmark
Your change is fine. The text of the reads as she was just a regent and defacto monarch only. Everything else on the page treats her a full monarch so it is not that clear to me what she was. Either way the article could be better written.Carlaude:Talk10:43, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Minor edits
Thank you for your contributions. Please remember to mark your edits, such as your recent edits to Daniel Westling, as "minor" only if they truly are minor edits. In accordance with Help:Minor edit, a minor edit is one that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute. Minor edits consist of things such as typographical corrections, formatting changes, or rearrangement of text without modification of content. Additionally, the reversion of clear-cut vandalism and test edits may be labeled "minor". Thank you. Tomas e (talk) 10:05, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Serge - I've had a look at that dispute, and I'm afraid that I don't have much of any use to say. It's unfortunately true that Wikipedia lacks any reliable mechanism to make sure that the "correct" side wins content disputes. Whether Helwig or Hedwig is more correct, I'm not sure, but the plurality of editors taking an active interest in the subject seem to think that Hedwig is the correct English name. That leaves you with the option of either generating more interest in the discussion (without running afoul of WP:CANVASS, which I'm afraid is likely to be difficult given then, ah, esoteric nature of the subject, or accepting the result, even as you don't agree with it. This latter option is a necessary part of working in disputed areas of Wikipedia, which is part of why I try to stay away from disputed areas of Wikipedia. As a side note, discussion is getting rather heated there. I don't really think that the accusations of personal attacks there is warranted, but I'd suggest that all of you try to tone down the rhetoric slightly. Sorry I couldn't be more useful. Steve Smith (talk) 11:58, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your candid remarks! Just so we are clear on this in principle: Let's say there was a 13th century queen of some country who had the very unusual name of Malia. The fact that that was her actual name was not in doubt by anyone. Somewhere, in some odd writing long ago, somebody incorrectly translated her name to English as Maria (not Malia), an error which then spread to a few other publications in English, whereas everyone else (of the very few that have written about her at all) in every language including English have her correct name: Malia. Based on those few erroneous publications which call her Maria in English only, two users, canvassing each other, want to change the title of the article about her on en.WP to Maria. That is exactly what's going on in this case. Are you saying there is no way to put a stop to something so destructive to the reputation of this encyclopedia? SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:30, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is a way, of course! You can cite some sources to prove that her actual name was Helvig and that somewhere, in some odd writing long ago, somebody incorrectly translated her name to Hedwig. So far you haven't cited any source, even though I asked you to cite a source five times. How can you expect us to overrule what historians and academics say in favour of what you say? Surtsicna (talk) 08:37, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Steve: There are no books about this queen in English. She is mentioned briefly in a few works and has been given the wrong name (not a translation - the wrong name) in a few. Every other publication in the world that mentions her gives the right name - such as all the Swedish-language sources cited for the en.WP article and the German, Dutch, French, Norwegian and Swedish WP articles, reliable German genealogical registers (not amateur blogs), etc. I am not going to engage in such ridiculous work as trying to find sources in English (where she is hardly ever mentioned) to prove what her name was. Everybody serious knows that already. No "historians and academics" have made the error. Not one. I am now adding one academic historian as a reference to her correct name in the article. It is the only place I know of where her name is mentioned in English by any "academic and historian". There are plenty of places all over the internet where one can find facts to confirm that these are two different names that cannot be translated back and forth betwixt each other. If this doesn't suffice, I give up. SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are no books about this queen in Swedish either (no book about drottning Helvig) and I'm pretty sure that there are no books about her in any other language. She is mentioned as Hedwig by several books which to focus on Swedish history (eg. Kingship and state formation in Sweden, 1130-1290 , which mentions her 11 times and Politics and reformations: communities, polities, nations, and empires, which was published by the University of Michigan). Therefore, please don't distort the facts by saying that she is mentioned briefly ina few works and that she is hardly ever mentioned by English language sources, when there are English speaking historians who devoted severa pages of their work to describe the importance of coronation of Hedwig of Holstein. Now let me quote User:Pmanderson regarding the sources currently used in the article: It would help the article to have English sources; in the process, we might do better than nineteenth-century patriotism and coffee-table books on the Queens of Sweden. If historians and academics who call her Hedwig of Holstein didn't make the error, who did? The only place you know of where her name is mentioned in English is written by a Swede now why would a Swede bother to refer to Hedwig by the name which is most commonly used to refer to her in English when he can call her the way Swedes call her? Let me remind you once again of what you said to me: Swedish monarchs] have been covered in English usually, if at all, by Swedes with (1) little or no knowledge of the legitimate English name forms they could/should have used; and/or (2) with little or no interest in researching such things to do a better job; and/or (3) with some interest in promoting the use of Swedish phonetics in English at the dire expense of the English reader who knows no Swedish.Surtsicna (talk) 09:38, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Somebody beat me to it. For future reference, the simplest way to revert a bunch of revisions at once is as follows:
Click the "history" tab.
Click the time and date of the version that you want to revert back to (in this case, you'd click the date next to your name, which for me is "03:46, 23 October 2009" but is probably something like "08:46, 23 October 2009" for you).
Click the "edit this page" tab.
Explain in the edit summary field that you are reverting edits and why.
Thanks for the heads up. This should be really easy to resolve, as you can see on the discussion page of the article. I've left it to the IP to resolve it himself. wp:v will lead us to a better article. Rather then vague "rumors", we'll probably just quote an unpublished manuscript (FWIW) followed by a scholarly reference and leave it at that.--Work permit (talk) 07:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Serge, there was recently a discussion in the talk page of article Gaston, comte d'Eu [2] about and editor called Fernandoe who insists on changing the meaning of sourced text although the source does not says what he writes. To be more clear, he insists on adding "surnames" to royals.[3][4] The discussion, as you can see since you were also part of it, agreed that his editions do not make any sense. Worse: he did not bother to participate in it. I am tired of serving as nothing more as a watch dog reverting his edits. Something must be done about him and fast. --Lecen (talk) 11:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your frustration and support your views. Said so, hoping to help. But I am not the right person to deal with this directly. Hope you can get a complaint lodged somehow that will do what we need done. Try contracting an Arbiter (I think WP calls them Arbitrators)! Cordially, SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:25, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a search with the contents of Magnus I of Sweden (disambiguation), and it appears to be very similar to another Wikipedia page: Magnus I of Sweden. It is possible that you have accidentally duplicated contents, or made an error while creating the page— you might want to look at the pages and see if that is the case. If you are intentionally trying to rename an article, please see Help:Moving a page for instructions on how to do this without copying and pasting. If you are trying to move or copy content from one article to a different one, please see Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia and be sure you have acknowledged the duplication of material in an edit summary to preserve attribution history.
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If that's all there were at stake, I'd agree with you. I'm not much for political correctness myself.
The actual issue in this case is that in the old days (about pre-1900) there were no legal names and no legal spellings. Thus you could basically spell a person's name however you chose and translate it into whatever proper exonym you wished in whatever language in which you were writing about him/her.
That is no longer the case since everyone, including royal people, now have legal names which are only correct in any language if they are spelled exactly the way those persons are registered with the authorities where they reside and are citizens - these are what I call legal spellings and cannot reasonably be translated or fiddled with, in my opinion.
King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden is legally registered with that name, whereas he can still be counted in English as Charles XVI in history. Out of respect, one would use the legal names and spellings when referring to these people, just like you probably would be pleased if someone went to the trouble to spell your name right, according to its legal form (or be displeased about someone finding out your exact real name).
I respect your opinion, but it looks like you didn't read a word I wrote about this, with best intentions. What a waste of my time and effort! SergeWoodzing (talk) 05:03, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Christina
Hi. Could you briefly explain why you removed a portait from the lead and replaced it with an image that does not clearly depict her face? I don't understand your edit. Viriditas (talk) 03:09, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The portrait is only a fantasy drawing and is thus not likely to be a likeness of her at all. Thus I found it inappropriate to use it as a main portrait of Christina. It has been removed before (14 sept 2009) by another user. Don't you think a contemporay portrait sculpture is better to use up top, even if there is no close-up of her face there? SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:09, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What is the difference, as you see it, between a 19th century drawing that clearly depicts the face of Christina and a modern sculpture that does not? And, why would you choose to use one over the other in the lead section? Viriditas (talk) 10:18, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to have missed the words "fantasy image" here, in the new caption and on the Commons image page. This (lovely) picture has also been removed from the sv.WP article for the same reason. A fantasy image does not "clearly depict her face" because it is a fantasy image. If admitted here as a lead portrait, then a precedent is set that would enable anyone to draw any face, claim it is a portrait of someone and add it to WP as such. As I see it, WP wouldn't want that. It was mainly out of respect for you that I kept the picture at the end of the article, though that too may actually be inappropriate, due to the questionable relevance of a picture that is (1) not a likeness and (2) hardly well known artwork. SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PS If by "modern sculpture" you mean the statue at Stockholm Palace, I think is appropriate for use to illustrate her valiant defense of that seat of government. If by "modern sculpture" you mean the church image, you missed the word "contemporary" there. SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:33, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't missed a thing. What is the difference between a "fantasy" image (drawing) made in the 19th century and a contemporary rendering of her face in a modern sculpture? P.S. I couldn't help notice that the image you restored was uploaded by my old friend, EmilEikS. Do we meet again? Viriditas (talk) 10:35, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Contemporary and modern are opposites in most cases. A contemporary image of a person was made when that person lived. The church sculpture is far from "modern" - it was created in the era of Christina's lifetime and is likely to be a likeness of her. Who uploaded what is irrelevant to WP work, unless you are on some sort of personal campaign regarding some users, pro or con. I'm not. If that user is your "old friend", what's the problem anyway? The meaning of your last question is unclear. Have we met? SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:59, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see the problem. In the context of art, contemporary art can be a subset of modern art (and exceeds the boundaries of the category into the present day) and the words are used as synonyms outside that context (contemporary, modern). You appear to be thinking of the word contemporaneous, not contemporary. Since EmilEikS wrote that description, should I assume that you are him? The current description reads "Kristina Nilsdotter Gyllenstierna (wife of regent Sten Sture the Younger) depicted in a contemporary altar sculpture at West Aros (Västerås) Cathedral." To avoid confusion with the term contemporary art, it should instead say, "An altar sculpture at West Aros Cathedral contemporary with Kristina Nilsdotter Gyllenstierna." Viriditas (talk) 11:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to argue words with you at length - never used contemporaneous in my 63 years. Never had to. Have taught English in North America. The WP link is redirected to contemporary and Webster says the words are synonymous. And I don't understand your user id questions, why you want to assume things, nor how any of that is relevant to WP work and this article. Always a good idea to clarify things though, so I will update Commons according to your suggestion, unless you already have done so. Thanks for helping (though I feel you could have been clearer and a little nicer about it at the outset)! Cordially, SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:58, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. This link might interest you. The word is used widely throughout literature. Now that we have that settled, is there a reason we can't use the portrait in the lead section? Do you really believe that it gives the reader a false impression of what she looks like? Viriditas (talk) 00:41, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know that some other writers use the longer word, and I ask you very kindly to please stop acting as my teacher. I only said that I have never had any reason to use it myself (finding it, and many such long words, a bit contrived, if you will allow me an opinion of my own), as contemporary will do just fine in all the same contexts as this. My reasoning and opinion are unchanged about the lead portrait. No fantasy drawings. It sets a very bad example. And yes, my knowledge of this kind of drawing from romantic Swedish magazines in the 1880's says that we have no reason to believe there is any accurate likeness of Christina whatsoever in that face. I wouldn't have moved it down if that were not the case, I promise you sincerely. I don't edit just for the pleasure of correcting others, without any knowledge of the matter at hand. The altar sculpture is the only face we have of hers that is likely to be an accurate portrait. I will see if I can take a real close-up of it for WP next time I'm in West Aros. - What she looked like you surely must mean, since what she looks like in her grave in Trosa, Sweden, destroyed by fire in 1773, must certainly be a rather ghastly mess by now. Re: the image you like here, Mr. Behrens (otherwise totally unknown) drew a pleasant face for the magazine publisher, nothing less, and certainly nothing more. Here is another example of such artwork, which seems to take after her husband's face, not hers, and has no historical value of any kind except, as 19th-century magazine art. SergeWoodzing (talk) 02:45, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand your argument against using the drawing in the lead section. From what I can tell, it is based on her likeness[citation needed], and is accurate enough for our purposes. One cannot make out enough detail in the sculpture to get a decent image of her face, and Wikipedia rarely uses sculptures as images of a biographical person. The "fantasy" drawing, as you describe it, gives the reader a clear image of the subject, and it is used appropriately in the lead sections of the Spanish, French, and Italian language Wikipedia articles. Could you provide one good reason why we should not use it? With all due respect, it is beyond the realm of the absurd that one could possibly argue that variations on this image are more useful or informative to the reader than this drawing. Do you honestly believe you have a good argument for preferring the sculpture over the drawing in the lead? I will probably drop this argument, as I have more important things to do, but I'm not satisfied with the sculpture in the lead. Viriditas (talk) 09:54, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is a likeness, you say "from what I can tell"? Please give a source for that! How can you tell that? It cannot be considered a likeness with any measure of reliability. A complete fantasy drawing "is accurate enough for our purposes" and "gives the reader a clear image of the subject"? What subject? Certainly not the subject that it is not a likeness of. Anyone can draw any face and claim it is a portrait of someone and "accurate enough for our purposes"? If the only accurate portrait we have is a sculpture, we should make a fantasy drawing, that does not look like the subject treated, and use it because "Wikipedia rarely uses sculptures as images of a biographical person"? We should use the fantasy drawing because a few editors at "Spanish, French, and Italian language Wikipedia" found it and used it when it was the only image available? If there was no known portrait of Liliuokalani, could I draw something very nice of what I think she might have looked like, and post it as her portrait for her WP article? Unfathomable argumeents, as I see the responsibility we have to provide valuable, reliable and relevant imagery for these articles. SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:29, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If there is no known portrait of a biographical figure, and you drew a portrait of what you think she looked like based on existing works, yes, you could use it in a Wikipedia article, and in fact, we use user-created content, including photographs, images, drawings, sketches, graphs, tables, and other works in many articles. I'm sorry, but I thought you were aware of this fact. Evidently, you were not. It's best not to assume. If you have questions, feel free to ask. The fact is, there is nothing whatsoever preventing me from placing the drawing in the lead section, and you have not presented a single valid argument for removing it. I know the real reason you restored the image of a sculpture to the lead section, and it's not a coincidence that User:EmilEikS was the original uploader. I've got nothing against you or your edits, but I don't like the specious arguments. You claim that we can't use this 19th century image in the lead section because it is a "fantasy drawing", but all art is "fantasy", and this particular drawing is used by the ancestors of Christina Gyllenstierna on their own website, which was created to commemorate and preserve her memory.[5] This appears to nullify whatever argument you once had. Viriditas (talk) 11:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Third Opinion: I assume that you are referring to the page Christina_Gyllenstierna and the pictures here and here? The precedent set in other articles would suggest that the sculpture is the best picture to use in the infobox. Look, for example, at John of England or Edmund Ironside, in both of which much clearer portraits are available later in the article, yet are not used in the infobox. If the 19th century drawing were the only portrait available, then that would be acceptable (see, for example, Harold Harefoot), but since we do have an image that is contemporary, or almost so, with the subject, that should be preferred. I don't, incidentally, think that the term "fantasy drawing" is particularly useful or appropriate - none of the three articles on English kings I have cited above use it to describe the modern portraits.Anaxial (talk) 18:32, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Anaxial, that's a reasonable assumption based on common sense, but I would like to point out a few things:
There's no discussion about image preference on Template talk:Infobox royalty. Do you know if this topic has been discussed elsewhere?
John of England is assessed as C-Class and Edmund Ironside as Start-Class. We should probably use GA and FA articles as examples.
I can find many FA and GA articles that use prefer to use newer depictions of a biographical subject. For example, Edward III of England (FA) appears to use a later painting to depict the monarch, rather than works created during his time or closer to his reign.[6]Manuel I Komnenos (FA) favors the use of several different later depictions, rather than a work produced during his lifetime.[7] The same is true of Offa of Mercia, which favors a later depiction rather than older works produced during his reign, and Jogaila (FA). I have an additional list of a dozen FA and GA articles to consider as well. In all of these examples, it appears that the later work was chosen to best represent the subject.
What does all of this mean? Each article must be treated on its own merits. The sculpture used in the lead section of Christina Gyllenstierna is small and of poor quality.[8] The drawings depict her character clearly and are based on other works displaying her visage. Apparently, her descendents prefer to use the drawing on their website. Why are we not using it in the same way? Viriditas (talk) 23:30, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I had nothing to do with removing the 19th century drawing from the article at Swedish WP calling it a "fantasy portrait" there on Oct 24 2009. Yet I am subjected to such slyly mysterious and faintly deprecating slurs as this above: "I know the real reason you restored the image of a sculpture to the lead section, and it's not a coincidence that User:EmilEikS was the original uploader.". Doesn't really make one very excited about continuing to contribute when a longtime user at English WP treats one like this. Why not come totally clean and reveal in full detail the personal reasons behind all this arguing? Or, even better, why not accept gracefully the third opinion given? SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:52, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid there was a bit of bad communication between us, and I apologize for those comments. As for the third opinion, I do appreciate Anaxial's input. However, the reader would benefit from having the drawing in the lead as the sculpture provides a poor representation of Christina. Viriditas (talk) 12:33, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not that important to me. The thing is, when I examine an article, I try to approach it as an editor and a reader. As an editor, I understand the reason why SergeWoodzing wants the sculpture in the lead. But, as a reader, I also understand why the drawing would work better. Finding a balance between editing and reading is an important part of writing articles. I simply want SergeWoodzing to consider both of these perspectives. That's all I ask. Viriditas (talk) 13:19, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It seems all 3 of us are in total agreement now in principle, and that is a very nice outcome, especially since this whole thing ended up on my talk page, whereas it probably should have been on the article's. Thank you both, in any case! Cordially, SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:09, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
P S: I would like to add that I find en.WP's Third Opinion option very helpful. I have only had very good results whenever I have used it so far. Am now going to suggest that it become available on sv.WP, where it is much needed. SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:17, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there! ^_^ I noticed your edit of Carl Linnaeus adding File:LinnéStPeterMN.jpg to the posthumous honors gallery. I am just curious why you picked that specific image. Was it because it was in the tricentennial year? Was it because of the Swedish graduation cap? Some other reason? Thanks! -- Limulus (talk) 18:08, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for asking! There aren't very many statues/busts or other artwork of Swedes to be found in other countries, so I see this one as a rather unique testimonial of sorts to this man's international esteem. Any photo of that particular bust would have done (I was impressed when I saw it on location), but I thought the graduarion cap (invented as they were in his home town of Upsala) sort of shows his graduation to that esteem, and the fact that this was in 2007 didn't hurt either. Do you object? SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:47, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Did I take this in the article's top template too seriously: "You are welcome to assist in its construction by editing it as well."? SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:57, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No worries! :D I was genuinely curious as to why it was the one you picked (since there are SO many nice photos in the commons [9] and I should know since I spent way too much time working to organize them! ;) Thank you for your contribution and hope you can help more on the Linnaeus article. Also... you don't think it has too many images, do you? ^^; I tend to get a little carried away with pics... -- Limulus (talk) 07:07, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh! I got that info from Linnaeus Arboretum: "The arboretum also has a number of other attractions which are as follows [...] Linnaeus Sculpture - Created by Paul T. Granlund, sculptor-in-Residence at Gustavus Adolphus College. The bust grows out of a linden tree" I will strike the arboretum mention from the caption. You might want to edit the arboretum article as you apparently know what's there :) -- Limulus (talk) 13:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I am no arboretum expert. All I remember is that the bust is located along a walkway on the general campus green, not that I remember at or near the arboretum, certainly not in it. There was no tree there either - but most everything was destroyed in their tornado a number of years ago and e.g. the bust of Gustav II Adolph was found far away! SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:01, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I can't give a comprehensive reply right now because it looks like my wife is having a baby... today! Appreciate your patience. Thparkth (talk) 13:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have never moved an article but I think I can figure it out, now that I've started looking at it. Do you mean that when a move has been requested we are to wait for an admin to do it, but we can do the moves ourselves if we haven't requested them? SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:20, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Users are encouraged to move articles themselves if they believe that nobody will oppose the move. However, if you move an article and somebody reverts the move, you should request it rather than engage in edit war, have a discussion with other users and then allow an uninvolved admin to decide whether the page should be moved. Sometimes you won't be able to move an article yourself; this happens usually if the article had been moved to several different titles. In such cases, you have to request a move. Surtsicna (talk) 13:33, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You didn't clearly answer this part of my question: "Do you mean that when a move has been requested we are to wait for an admin to do it?". Would be nice to have a definite answer on that, since I read you as requiring me to wait for an administrator to do those 4 moves, inferring that it would be inappropriate for me to do them myself. Also, by whom (where can I read in WP policy) that "Users are encouraged to move articles themselves if they believe that nobody will oppose the move" - ? Not that I don't trust you, but in one place I think you are telling me I now have to wait for an admnistrator to do 4 moves that I believe nobody will oppose, because I requested them, and then you tell me I am "encouraged" to do them myself. Confusing, don't you agree? SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:14, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PS: The wording here is hardly any clearer. We are told to do uncontroversial moves ourselves, but also to request them, but not why the might require assistance if we do request them. ??? SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:21, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Do you mean that when a move has been requested we are to wait for an admin to do it?" To be honest, I've never seen anyone move a page after requesting the move of that page. It simply wouldn't make sense! If the community isn't opposed to your proposal, an administrator will move it. If the community is opposed, your move would surely be reversed immediately. You don't have to wait for an administrator to move 4 pages whose moves you have requested; I am simply advising you to wait. You are encouraged to move articles yourself if you believe that there is a better title and that other users won't oppose (see Wikipedia:Be bold). You may also be interested in Help:Moving a page and Wikipedia:How to move a page. Surtsicna (talk) 14:38, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The same way one requests a move to be done. You've already done it, so you are familiar with the process. By the way, I think you should be aware of this. Please don't continue the discussion with the IP on my talkpage; I just thought I should let you know because I hate talking about people behind their back. Surtsicna (talk) 14:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See how uncertain I am about moves? I had no idea that I had ever asked for a move to be reversed. When? Where?
Re: that other user, thanx but no sweat - that person appears frequently and untraceably from a multitude of IP's and puts all kinds of fantasies in all over but never with any reliable sources. His/her latest plan of attack - of many - is to accuse others of not sourcing. I have just given a source there in response to your suggestion for [citation needed] and removed the unsourced stuff he/she put in again. Beware! His/her whining can go on for decimeters and decimeters of screen space if he/she doesn't get his/her fantasy stuff in. And he/she copies those decimeters of his/hers and puts them in all over. Some of that graces my talk page above on sw.WP. In this case, I'd have no qualms about discussing someone with you or anyone else, because it is impossible to discuss directly with that person without getting into a sticky mess. A block of all those IP's may become necessary in due course. SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:01, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, you misunderstood me. I did not say that you had requested for a move to be reversed. You asked how to do it and I said that it's done just like requesting a move. You have requested moves, eg. Inge I of Sweden. Now, if somebody moved Queen Silvia of Sweden to Silvia Sommerlath and you didn't like it, you would request for the move to be reversed the same way you requested moving Inge I of Sweden. I'm sorry if I'm not clear enough. Surtsicna (talk) 15:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like you're on top of all this now, but in a case where everyone involved with an article agrees, and you don't expect any controversy, you should be bold and make the move yourself. By default, a redirect will be left behind pointing to the new name, which will take care of any links to the old name. Thparkth (talk) 19:55, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Project: Rename articles of Swedish royals
This is a reminder to myself to try to fit this work in sometime soon.
I have a few simple, constructive ideas for such formats and would like to get consensus on them, so I will have something to go by. Have come to realize that my own ideas will not all be able to be implemented at this time, since consensus and adopted policy already seem to be firmly against some of them. Perhaps some sort of compromise on format can be achieved?
Should I start an RFC to get comments on these specific new ideas, which I then will list there; or should I list them here; or on the Swedish monarchy talk page; or on the main category talk page - or how else could I try to get consensus to start the project soon, in a way that will not be too controversial and run into lots of objections? SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:19, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest starting a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles) because it seems that your proposal will not concern only Sweden-related articles. The titles of articles about Swedish royals should not be formatted differently than titles of articles about (for example) Danish royals. It would not only create some very inconvenient situations (such as Ingrid of Sweden and Louise of Sweden), but unneccessary inconsistency would be created. Surtsicna (talk) 14:53, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, though I assure you it is my intention only to address the Swedish royals with this project and leave all the others for others (with expertise on those people) to fix. Other than that, see my reply above, please! I thought if I could show my suggestions somewhere, they might be found totally uncontroversial. SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:00, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd go along with Surtsicna's advice, and begin a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions. That way you'll get more general feedback than you would on the Swedish monarchy talk.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:13, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree we should change some of the names of Swedish royalty to fit more in line with Danish royalty. I tried changing some of the titles for the Swedish princesses, but I didn't tamper with some because there was already existing redirect by that name. But what are you guys even trying to change? --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 16:06, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When I did a complete overhaul of the 4 categories (linked above) awhile ago and saw to it that all articles were included, I discovered that some article titles have Prince (etc.) in them while others do not, the queens consort are called Queen of Sweden in a few cases, in most not, and their confirmed maiden names are usually (correctly as I have come to understand) used, but not always, legitimate English exonyms are used in most cases, but not all, etc. Once I get consensus from y'all about where to post my suggested consistency formats, this will become clearer. In the meantime, I'll have a look at the Danes, some of whom are involved here, too. SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Surtsicna! Please don't assume anything based on past discussions and go on here as if you know what I am planning to suggest! I invited you to comment constructively. You have given your opinion once here, that will suffice. Now let others have their say. I will wait for a few days and then post my suggested formats where consensus thinks I should put them. SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:00, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SergeWoodzing! Please don't invite me anymore if you are going to respond to my comments in such manner, as if I attacked you. You did not specify that each editor should comment only once and I did not deserve your shutting me up. Surtsicna (talk) 17:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)Surtsicna[reply]
No one who sticks to the topic of what I have asked them to comment on, on my talk page, deserves to be shut up. Anyone who misuses the invitation and starts irrelevant insinuations, presumptions and unnecessary arguments here does. And will be. Such behavior is not welcome here. SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:50, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please note: I have clearly explained (I think?) that this section is for advice to me about where to start a discussion in the matter of renaming some articles. It is not necessary that that discussion takes place here, and not appreciated either, if so. Thank you for your kind consideration! SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:06, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
May I suggest inviting Wikipedians who write on Danish royalty to join this discussion? And those write on Swedish and Danish Wikipedia as well? — Robert Greer (talk) 10:55, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You first suggestion is excellent, thank you! Though I'm not sure how to find more of them than I have already invited (as noted above). You second suggestion renders me quite a bit of ambivalence. In general those writers are not (at) all qualified to judge English texts or article names, in my experience. After cleaning up many hundreds, even thousands, of things by most of them over the years, I would say they generally need more help than they are qualified to give here at en.WP. There are a few exceptions of course (I've invited 2), but I haven't seen many, even among those who have p/(b)o(a)sted "native-level English" on their user pages. SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:16, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a valid criticism. There is a tendency in some quarters to over-estimate one's command of English as a second languange, but in this very limited context — styling of royal names — it should not be a problem. As to editors of Danish articles, have you looked at WikiProject Denmark? — Robert Greer (talk) 11:35, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You object applying Minor Edit to the transforming of "...he was impressed by the it was the gentleness and..." to "...he was impressed by the gentleness and..." on the page for Greta Garbo. Number one on the list of grounds for use of Minor Edit (Help:Minor edit) is "Spelling and grammatical corrections". English does not permit application of an article ("the") to a pronoun ("it"). This was a grammatical correction, with no change to semantic content, so Minor Edit was appropriate.
Whether to use Minor Edit or not is determined by the purpose and effect of the edit, not its length, although of course most minor edits (and hence most Minor Edits) are short. -- Igodard (talk) 17:44, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is a certain value, in my opinion, in advising others with watchlists even of grammatical errors or orphan phrases (such as this may be) that have been left in articles and are corrected through multi-word edits. In my opinion, such changes should not be designated as minor. Certain editors never or rarely look at changes marked as m on their watchlists and must rely on us not to use minor for changes of this kind. You are just as welcome to your opinion as I assume you respect mine. Perhaps it is I who am wrong, and I should start checking even m edits more carefully to see if any multi-word improvments and/or corrections have taken place. I was rather severely scolded about this some time ago, and I may be too sensitive about it. SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Swedish royal names: Gustaf/Gustav, Christina/Kristina etc
I saw you've been doing some work and discussion on the names of Swedish kings, princes, princesses and queens and what spelling to use in English. Not sure if you know, but there's an old practice, followed consistently in Sweden that final f in a kingly/princely Gustaf is changed to v after the bearer has died. So King Gustaf V, Gustaf II Adolf in contemporary sources but Gustav in historical writing after their death, including modern tombstones and statues. I'm not sure when this practice was laid down but it's been around at least since the late 19th century. It barely affects pronounciation: final -f in Gustaf is pronounced v, sometimes with a very slight fricativization ("shade of an f") but it was and is rather indistinguishable. I commented on it at [[11]] - the section at the bottom called "Gustav & Gustaf (again). The same with Karl/Carl and Kristina(Christina.
The spelling on WP seems to be a bit variable: I notice Gustaf V but Gustav I of Sweden with redirects on Gustav Vasa and Gustaf vasa - both of those seem to have been headlined with an eye to the Swedish articles. I would prefer Gustav V but since it's the same on WPSw it's all right. In Sweden the most common way by far to refer to Gustav I is as Gustav Vasa: people will lift their eyebrows high if you say in everyday talk that Gustav I is the man who fought Nils Dacke. Queen Christina wrote her own name as Christina - influenced by French - but most books in Swedish use "Kristina". Strausszek (talk) 20:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am a bit of an expert on all this, but thank you anyway!
Yes, Gustaf has traditionally been changed to Gustav after the death of each king by that name, just as Carl has been changed to Karl. The Swedes called it normalization and the same was used to record the legal names of regular residents in church ledgers, whether they liked it (or even knew of it) or not. The last stubborn remnants of this, of sorts, have been the phone books of the Swedish government's phone company, where Ericson, Ericsson, Erikson, Eriksson, Erichson and Erikzon, for example, were all bunched together in one single secton, alphabetized as Eriksson - making it nearly impossible to find some people!
Since 1901, however, all Swedes have had legal names with non-variable legal spellings. That is why kings Gustaf V, Gustaf VI Adolf and Carl XVI Gustaf always should be spelled that way, as should the current king's father. Gustav, on the other hand, is considered normal English spelling, whereas Gustaf is not. But it is just no longer considered appropriate for others - in any language - to change the legal registered spellings of the names of 20th and 21st century people. Thus, too, the current king is Carl Gustaf, not Charles Gustavus and his queen is Silvia not Sylvia.
I'm sorry, you are wrong about the modern tomb stones. Only legal spellings are given there.
I do not fully agree with you about Gustav I versus Gustav Vasa. Have heard Gustav I used many times in Swedish, usually by scholars or other well educated people. After all, the king himself never used Vasa - and of course the numeral didn't come into use until the next Gustav ascended.
Queen Christina was influenced by Latin, not French (which has that name as Christine). There too, Kristina is a normalization, as is Katarina for Catharina. SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Please do not raise your voice at me by using capital letters!" Happy to make the change to italics but... the usage of the "!" in this situation seems ironic. All the best, and happy editing.- Sinneed16:02, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In English punctuation and grammar it is not correct not to use an exclamation point at the end of a sentence which begins with the word please. In WP policy the use of all capitals for a whole word is taken as if you are raising your voice On those few occasions when I do that I always add (please pardon me for raising my voice!) - again using the exclamation point correctly - or such right after. Same to you. Sincerely, SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:11, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you feel quite generous, you might provide a source for the "not correct not to use an exclamation point at the end of sentence which begins with the word please" thing. I do understand I am asking for an unearned favor, but in many, many years of exposure to American English, I have never heard of such a rule.- Sinneed03:08, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You and your friend Anders are so headstrong about being great at English that I must abstain from debating the English language with the two of you any further. Please respect that! We will never arrive at anything that will please either of us on that subject. It is on that talk page in writing that I hope we will be helped by people with English as a main language. So why don't you just stop now? I'm not going to reply anymore anyway to either of you re: English. SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have not yet interacted with Anders, so identifying him/her as my friend is probably overly familiar. Your posting at 3O drew me to the article, as I came to try to find out why someone would attempt to name an article about a person "a Swedish epithet". That turned out not to be the case.- Sinneed12:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you are not knowledgeable enough to know that Årsäll is a Swedish epithet - why go on and on? I won't be replying anymore. Please stay off my talk page! SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:51, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ownership
"You are butting in where you are not wanted and sabotaging my 3O request." is not appropriate. Unless subject to an article ban, any unblocked editor is welcome to edit any unprotected article.- Sinneed02:34, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No need to quote guidelines where they are not applicable. You know very well I meant you are butting in on the talk page there and intentionally sabotaging the 3O process. That is called being disruptive, in English. My comment on that has nothing whatsoever to do with actually editing the article. SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:40, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The quoted guidelines are quite applicable. Anyone is welcome to edit any article talk pages in the encyclopedia. Your behaviour at the article talk page, at the 3O page in the slanted presentation of the issue, is not acceptable. It seems motivated by genuine concern, but it is not appropriate.- Sinneed12:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please rest assured that I am not "butting in", am not "sabotaging", and that these warnings and the comments on the article talk page are not disruptive. Please remember to wp:assume good faith.- Sinneed12:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for agreeing to stay away from here. Now, I wish you would do the same there, so there still might be a chance of some 3O assistance. SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:58, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is inappropriate. As I stated, I accept your invitation to reply to you here. This is another warning for wp:own, and another for wp:civil. Focus on the content, not on the posters. Comments about me, I will reply to here.- Sinneed13:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say it was poor English I said it was an odd choice of words your friend used you used. It is, very odd, suspected Swenglish (like you so often write) or else just childish. Confusing in a context where appropriate English is being discussed. But your English isn't good enough - Mr Near-native level - to distinguish between these factors.
You are not welcome on my talk page, so stay off it please! Especially when you are running the errands of someone else, a friend of yours who is only trying to prevent a neutral 3O volunteer from helping.SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:36, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You undid one of my edits the at Carl Linnaeus article stating it was NPOV. Perhaps a more mature thing to do would be to actually asked what I meant with the edit before you undid (or at least leaving a note on my talk page)? Caution should be taken when undoing a registered user's edit. There is nothing un-neutral with my edit. I simply "cleaned up" some redundant images. First of all, galleries are not very popular at the FACs or GANs, which is where I aim to take this article. Also none of the images are very notable, neither are they referencing to the text in any way. Esuzu(talk • contribs)17:53, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You use of the word "mature" is insulting. (Please do not come to this page to insult me!)
Articles should preferably be discussed on their talk pages.
My sincere apologies, anyway, for offending you! You seemed to have given your point of view (WP:POV) about two images. I did not find that point of view of yours quite neutral. When I write "clean up" (I have done a lot of that myself for years) I usually mean that something was not appropriate. Dirt isn't. To clean something up, literally, is to remove dirt, though we often use the term just a dab less literally, of course. I see nothing inappropriate about those images in the context they appear. Thats my POV, which honestly opposes yours. They are relevant and interesting, and I didn't know they had to be notable in themselves.
The college is mentioned, though someone recently removed it from that image caption. I'll put it back. Fruit, of course, is relevant, and I find that image extraordinarily entertaining.
Why not remove the whole gallery, if galleries are frowned upon (I didn't know that either)?
Can we agree to disagree like gentlemen without lecturing each other, questioning each other's maturity and taking offense? I am sorry. SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:16, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My intent was not to insult you, insulting serves no purpose. I simply wanted to state very clearly that I do not think one should undo another editors edit so hastily (unless they are vandals). First of all one should try discuss it (although I know there are many editors/people who do not want to discuss). Undoing without discussing is like you treat me like I was a vandal, that is why I take offence.
{{help}}
I need a policy clarification, please! Very confused today about something I thought was not allowed. Something I would never dare do, though it would make my WP life much more comfortable.
Is this kind of thing allowed? Has now been done twice by that editor and I do not want to go to war on that page about it.
If they are talking about the article's subject, it is not allowed. Talk pages are for discussing improvements to the article. But you shouldn't remove such comments, just remind them instead. If they are criticising your edits, I wouldn't delete the comments - that wouldn't be very nice not matter what the policies say. I would just reply back with why you made the particular edits - remember WP:BOLD :) Chevymontecarlo15:18, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanx! In the linked case above, two comments of mine that go to the motives of an opposing editor have been deleted by him twice. His motives are important in trying to understand his stand on the article's subject and the extensive extraordinary information that he has included and wants kept in that biography, a porno drawing and lots of text. What does one do about such repeated deletions, his own of entries about his motives re: the article? I've never done anything like that and never would, but seeing him get away with it makes me wonder why not. SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:29, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let me see if I can shed some light on the subject. The first rule of talk pages is they are there to improve the article. This is a rather broad definition when you think about it. Content disputes may occasionally require specific comments regarding editor motives, but this is a gray area. My general rule of thumb is I do not delete comments directed at me. The only content I delete from talk pages is my own mistaken edits or blatant vandalism. Let a third party look it over and make a delete decision. On that note, do not ask another editor to look it over, as this can be considered meatpuppetry (recruiting other editors to shore up a particular point of view).
In short, I would just ignore the other editor's behavior. Do your own personal best to assume good faith and work to improve articles. If another editor chooses to engage in shady behavior, eventually they'll squawk loud enough to gain the attention of an administrator. N419BH16:32, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, will be commencing a two-month trial at approximately 23:00, 2010 June 15 (UTC).
Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under flagged protection. Flagged protection is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial.
When reviewing, edits should be accepted if they are not obvious vandalism or BLP violations, and not clearly problematic in light of the reason given for protection (see Wikipedia:Reviewing process). More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found here.
We're trying to give this to all editors who have a general experience level, but the rollout by hand is making it a slow process. So that you understand the full process, I'll flag you as well. (This flag is truly minor, at least as long as flagged revisions is in the 2-month trial phase.) Courcelles (talk) 23:10, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, just to let you know that these have been nominated for deletion using Template:db-disambig as it has only one valid entry. If the other Boleslaw gets an article, then a hatnote at the primary page is probably the best way forward, see MOS:DAB, Disambiguation pages with only two entries. Best wishes, Boleyn (talk) 06:46, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, let me say this is entirely optional to you. I only place these messages because many people are unaware it's a task that needs doing. That being said, you have several options. The list of links to fix is here. I would recommend getting navigation popups. Go to "my preferences" in the upper right hand corner and click "Gadgets", check the box to enable Navigation popups, then click save. Follow the instructions on the page to bypass your browser's cache. Then go to your user javascript file and add this line
popupFixDabs=true;
Save and reload the cache again. Then, click a page in the list I gave you, find and hover over the Louise of Sweden (disambiguation) link (it'll probably be piped) and you'll get a small preview of the dab, and green links at the bottom of the preview to use to fix the link. Let me know if you have any questions! --JaGatalk20:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am truly grateful for your comment. I am sure you have seen the "message full of hatred" I had removed. A comment such as his would've hit me even more. Surtsicna (talk) 17:46, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You and I have had a number of more or less unpleasant encounters in all the pleasant work here - a few of them with each other - but that particular user is the worst nightmare I have had by far. SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:56, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PS Kuiper has now stalked me here to try to pick another fight with me, two and a half months later, by commenting on this long deleted text, which never concerned him in the first place. He is whom I meant above, and was commenting on on Surtsicna's page (where Surtsicna felt another editor had been hateful), no matter how this has been misconstrued. The nightmare goes on and on and on and on. SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:33, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree, but DKqwerty is not willing to be civil, and myself and many others have worked hard to establish validity to this article. And, he just comes in and wipes out 6 month of research in one swing. It appears that he is a self proclaimed WikiBot, and I do not know protocol in this situation. If you have a better solution to stop the madness. Please help.
Now for a Bernadotte of Wisborg who is undoubtedly notable, Count Folke Bernadotte. The biography was naturally very interesting but then I hit Folke Bernadotte#Marriage and descendants; it's even more of a mess than Count Lennart's was because it folds in a mini-history of Folke Bernadotte's in-laws, the Manville family (of the Johns-Manville corporation in the U.S.) Can you parse out what's going on? If I were to go through the hassle of converting it to a table, much more would be clear, but what's really needed is a companion ahnentafel for the Manvilles, comparable to pairing Prince Albert's ancestry with Queen Victoria's. I've never composed an ahnentafel, and genealogy is not one of my hobbies (although heraldry used to be); do you want to give it a try, or know someone who does? —— Shakescene (talk) 07:37, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now I see what happened, the whole section was created by a problem user:G.-M. Cupertino just before he was indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia in May 2010 (he'd just come out of a one-year block last January); here's the diff (May 2010) ; he added some useful information but in a pretty confused way. There's more to editing Wikipedia than just copying and pasting from the New York Times archive. ¶ More checking confirmed a vague guess that Cupertino might have done the same thing at Lennart Bernadotte, and indeed he did, a few months before his year-long block in January 2009. See: 2nd diff (Oct. 2008) . Which leads to the troubling question; how many other articles about Swedish royals and ex-royals (or for that matter members of other royal families) did he edit in this way? Is this going to be a major project for the Sweden, Royalty & nobility or Genealogy Wikiprojects? —— Shakescene (talk) 08:10, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is major project and there are many. Thanx for any tip-off! Sorry I cannot give the organized and thorough time and attention to all these problems that I'd like to. I pick off a little here, a little there, as I come across it. Will have a quick look at Folke now. SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:23, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Styrbjörn
Since we no longer seem to be debating the article, I'm posting this message here. I'm well aware that you most likely will try to claim that I have no right to do so, so if you'd like to, you're welcome to continue the discussion on my talk page.
Anyway, I agree: it's horrible how people can use sarcasm and post messages for no other reason than trying to belittle others. But maybe you would care to answer how exactly "characterized by harsh, insistent, and discordant sound" is a reasonable translation of "orolig, våldsam och stridslysten"? I assure you that I'm very anxious to know it.
No sarcasm, no belittling involved at all in those links. Just factual statements. I won't be talking to you at all anymore until you change your false ad about your English here and begin to show some appreciation of the fact that those of us who do not write some kind of a Swenglishrotvälska here do a lot of work trying to clean up after all you Swedes who do. You should be a little grateful for that and not pick fights about it. I could treat you much worse than trying to correct your language. We all need to see our own limitations. I have many. Yours here is mainly your English - and your headstrong sarcasm and belligerence makes it all much worse. SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:50, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, it seems I'm confused about the English again. You're sure it would be impossible for native speakers to find anything that could be interpreted as an attempt to be "sharp, bitter, or cutting" about "even to Swedes reading English"?
And I see that you still have not answered my question. I'm sure you've must have forgotten about it. Would you be so kind as to take the time to do so in your next reply, to show exactly how mistaken I was when I removed that sentence from the article, so that I can make a proper apology for it?
You removed a whole sentence where all we needed to do was change one word or the wording, which we then did when we found wording that is clear even to Swedes reading English. If you really think everything is as clear to you on English WP as it is to those of us whose first language is English, then that proves my point - you are stubborn, headstrong and over-confident when it comes to English, while you often show us how bad your Swenglish is here. Only those of us that know Swedish very well can identify it as Swenglish and help you fix it. Everybody else just wonders what you might mean. Now, I tried again here to be extra nice to you by replying sincerely, rather than ignoring you like I said I would (and had promised myself) above). I will not reply to anything you write after this until you update your user page template. You are not at a "near native level" in English. That's final. Straightforwardly and cordially, SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:21, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ahh, but surely someone with an English as terrible as mine shouldn't be allowed to write anything in the articles! We can't have the readers wondering what it might have been that I meant! Writing must surely be left to the true experts, with us poor stupid Swedes merely being allowed to ask questions when we are in over our heads. But since you said you won't be responding to me, I guess I should leave you alone now. Best of luck with the wording!
Serge, I am sorry I have upset you. I have been having a hard time assuming good faith with you given that, earlier in the discussion, you admitted you were consciously bullshitting. Once someone admits to that, it is hard not to see their other contributions in that light. In this case I was wrong to do so, and I apologize. I particularly apologize for accusing you of dishonesty with regards to your claims about Burke's and Debrett's. I continue to disagree with your interpretation of what their omission of surnames for royalty means, and I think you are making unwarranted inferences that do not stand up very strongly as evidence, but you obviously were not being dishonest, and I should not have suggested that you were. Our discussion at Marie Clotilde has gotten pretty far afield from any disagreement about the article, and it is probably a good idea to back away. john k (talk) 13:22, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's there as Roman Dacia. Do you feel the description is not enough, and that Dacia Traina and Dacia Felix should be mentioned as well? You are probably correct. You may be WP:bold and amend the description yourself - you needn't ask my permission, we are all equal volunteers on this educational charity project. SilkTork *YES!23:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that the whole objective of an alphabetical disambiguation page would be to help readers find things. You have now made that next to impossible, as hardly anyone is going to bother to try to find a geographical name in all that text unless that name is listed on tha page alphabetically. I will give you some time to think about that and fix so it works, before I start a discussion there and ask for a 3rd opinion. SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:06, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I get the sense that you are upset and frustrated. I apologise for being responsible for your frustration, though I don't quite understand why you feel you need to come to me to ask for my agreement for making a trivial, non-controversial edit; nor why you feel you need to make an ultimation that I think about my edit and "fix it" or you'll ask somebody else's opinion. You can make the edit. Somebody else can then change it. I can then change it. So it goes on. The intention all the time is to build on what the previous person has done and improve things. Sometimes we get it wrong, and what we thought was an improvement is not. Fine. A quiet amendment is better than a dramatic and provocative message on somebody's talkpage. This is a collaborative project - we need to get along, and it helps if we are polite and civil with each other, are tolerant and respectful, and are also confident enough to make small edits. I change and improve my own edits all the time. I trust you to do the same for me. And I trust that when I do the same to your edits you will take the amendment in the right spirit and either build on it, or further amend it in our ongoing quest to get things right. Go forth and build the encyclopedia! SilkTork *YES!21:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are not welcome here, as you know. The fact that you are ignoring that just goes to show how your main objective is to harrass me. Plus the fact that you should have seen that I have made good faith entries in these matters where I am going to start to look for the sources once offices open tomorrow where I can get expert help (which you are not). You should also have seen how often you have been wrong when you attacked me about these things with your sarcastic and uncivil comments. I will probably find ondependent sources for all those province names, like I did for the Smallands, Eyland and Vermelandia that you attacked me about. If you want to complain about my work do it to administrators who then can look into it and ask me about it. But I repeat STAY OFF MY TALK PAGE!SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carl of Vermillandia until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Fences&Windows01:37, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.
Mr. Kuiper: You are NOT WELCOME on my talk page for any reason whatsoever. You have been told this before. Please respect that and do not use deletion requests or anything else as an excuse to bother me here. I want to have no contact with you of any kind. This is the last time I am admonishing you to STAY OFF MY TALK PAGE!. I now expect you to do so. SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:57, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The user who posted this is now using unnecessary (frivolous) deletion requests to show me that he does not respect my repeated requests that he stay off my talk page.SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:33, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This user is now using unnecessary (frivolous) deletion requests to show me that he does not respect my repeated requests that he stay off my talk page.SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Pieter Kuiper
With regards to your response to comments by Pieter Kuiper on your talk page, as you will be aware, it is required as part of various processes such as AfD, that certain users are notified. If you do not wish Pieter Kuiper to contact you on your talk page in any circumstances as seem to be suggested, can you confirm that you accept that you are then responsible for making yourself aware of any issues which may relate to page you have been involved with? If so, then I can highlight this to Pieter and advise him that any further messages here may be considered harassment and he risks being blocked. Adambro (talk) 13:38, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! What do you think would be safe? Since I can't trust him, based on years of persecution of myself and others, can I be sure that he wouldn't be able to use that against me to cause serious trouble? Should my watchlist be enough? Or can he get around that somehow and take advantage of the fact that he doesn’t have to notify me? What if he reported me for some inventive reason to administrators on some page that I do not watch or with something that I do not find? I'm actually scared of him, as you might be able to tell. SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:06, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The issues you highlight is why I wanted to confirm you really didn't want Pieter Kuiper to contact you in any circumstances as you seem to have implied. Would it not be more sensible therefore to tolerate notification from Pieter Kuiper just to make sure that you are aware of what is going on? It would seem preferable, if Pieter Kuiper is going to, for example, nominate an article you've written for deletion, that he notifies you rather than does it anyway and doesn't notify you and then for whatever reason, you don't learn about it and can't respond. I'd suggest that, whilst Pieter Kuiper nominating articles that you are involved with for deletion (or whatever) may be part of a campaign of harassment, you shouldn't consider him notifying you about it as harassment because it is often going to be useful to you that he has done so. Adambro (talk) 15:06, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If he was considerate at all, or someone asked/told him to, he could report problems with my work to someone else neutral who could contact me, but his main objective, believe me, is to continue to harass me. I am hoping he will leave me and my work alone. Otherwise I won't want to go on anyway. I'm that fed up. SergeWoodzing (talk) 02:02, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Graham! Remember why you chose that article name? Any reaction to that name being called "idiosyncratic" now, or to my being called a "diva" for not understanding why it wouldn't be correct to link to it? I'm still dumbfounded. SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:28, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I chose to move it to that title simply because it contained all the early history that I had to merge. Keep in mind that I moved the page back to its original name after I had done the history merge. I know absolutely nothing about the subject, so I can't really comment on you being called a "diva" for linking to the page's old name, except to say that in general it is harsh language. Graham8701:50, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I linked to the article's current name Harald III of Norway, not to any old name of it. As far as I can see it's the current name - now called "idiosyncratic" - that I am being ridiculed for linking to, and it is then claimed that that name for the article was established when you did that moving on Nov 1 2009, which the edit history seems to show also. That's why I wrote to you, to see if I could find out anything that might explain the treatment I'm getting. SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:59, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oops. Well, I only moved "Harald III of Norway" to "Harold Hardrada", did the history merge, then moved the page back to the original "Harold III of Norway" title. I have absolutely no opinion on the article's title. Graham8714:12, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I think I've got the full picture now as far as you are concerned. Thank you for letting me grill you a bit about that and particularly for replying so considerately. Made me feel better. I think you did the right thing 100%. Sincerely, SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:48, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
These are the best two replies I have ever had to a question I raised at Wikipedia about a matter that is very important to me. I am recording them here for my own reference (SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:36, 30 January 2011 (UTC)).[reply]
Use of blatant Swenglish is definitely a concern; I encounter it fairly frequently as well. There are two issues involved: first, that many Swedes (not all, but many) have an inflated sense of their own ability to speak or write perfect English, because most Swedes have sufficient English to communicate with English-speakers - which obviously doesn't imply a perfect grasp of the language. Second, Swedish and English are sufficiently closely related to fool speakers of one language into thinking that the other language is pretty much the same, only with different words. That is not at all the case, because there are many important differences in sentence structure and other grammatical features, as well as a lot of false friends in the vocabularies of the two languages. (Btw, the reason I feel reasonably competent to comment on this is that I am a native speaker of Swedish, and I teach English grammar at university level in Sweden. I don't claim native competence in English, but I do consider my English to be sufficient for most purposes in Wikipedia.) Competence in English is a sore point with many Swedes, though, so there is unfortunately real potential for making people upset. While I'm not particularly good at handling conflicts (and am not an administrator), I could try helping out, because I do have some experience in explaining English grammar to Swedes. No guarantees that it will work, mind. --bonadeacontributionstalk14:41, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Along those lines, I can say it's true, non-native speakers of any language can easily misunderstand their successes with informal or verbal conversation as meaning they can write that language at a native level, or even speak it at levels needed in, say, meaningful business or technical conversations. Syntax, cognates, even idiom often don't quite make the jump between two given languages, so even if one has thousands of vocabulary words at their beck and call, along with knowing how to conjugate lots of verbs, the outcome can still be fraught with glitches, gaps and wrong meanings which thoroughly thwart understanding and flow. Even native speakers must at least be aware of their audience and may need or want to shift their usage to get whatever outcome they want from other native speakers. Long tale put too short, understanding is easier than rendering and there are reasons why skilled translators into a given language are almost always native speakers of that language. Vladimir Nabokov was very Russian, but he could write such slick English because he grew up speaking it at home, from babyhood, along with Russian and French. Our brains are hard-wired, so to speak, for language, but a language has to be soaked up at an early age. There's a cut-off age for by far most folks, I've forgotten what it is, say seven or eight at the latest, after which, if one isn't already fluently speaking a language, one will more or less never speak that language at what most would take as a native level. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:19, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, this is just to let you know that I have granted you the "autopatrolled" permission. This won't affect your editing, it just automatically marks any page you create as patrolled, benefiting new page patrollers. Please remember:
This permission does not give you any special status or authority
Submission of inappropriate material may lead to its removal
Serge, I think that you may be missing the point about how WP determines "includability." It's not based on subjective value, as your use of "encyclopedically relevant" would suggest. With a commercial, typically paper encyclopedia they have a team of professional editors, senior editors, and publishers to decide what to include and omit, with someone having the power to make an ultimate and final decision on that question. Because of the wiki-ideal of WP we cannot do that (even the Arbitration Committee has no power to decide content matters and while the Foundation does have that power, they only exercise it when legal concerns require them to do so). On the other hand, the community has recognized that we must remain true to our encyclopedic goal, so we can't just let anything and everything in. If it was left up to the community to decide about each individual article on nothing more than an "I like it" or "I don't like it" basis, on the other hand, the drama factor and disruption would be excessive, so instead we use verifiability as the base standard to determine inclusion or exclusion. (Notability is merely an explanation, interpretation, and expansion of verifiability; in effect verifiability is the principle, notability is the application of that principle.) At the end of the day, and with a few exceptions (BLP, copyright, vandalism, legal threats, etc.), inclusion or exclusion is determined by whether the subject matter of an article can be supported by multiple reliable sources (not is supported, but can be supported; the standard is verifiability not verified). If it can be, then subject to the aforementioned exceptions it can be included here; if it cannot, then it must be omitted. One interesting place these principles combine is in the issue of spam and some folks are surprised to learn that an entirely-promotional article cannot be deleted merely because it is promotional if it is reliably sourced. The only remedy for the spaminess of such an article is to rewrite it to remove the promotional tone and material. SoWhy is absolutely right that the proper way to get community judgment on whether or not an article should or should not be included is to take it to articles for deletion. While it is theoretically incumbent upon the nominator to make at least some effort to see if an article is verifiable before nominating it at AFD, I've never seen an editor get in trouble for not doing so, at least not unless he or she is repeatedly that cavalier. As for how notability is applied at AFD, you might be interested in this recent Village Pump discussion. Best regards, TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 13:57, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've done what I can there, I think. Seems no one agrees with him of the 3-4 of us that have reacted so far. I'm keeping an eye on the article so the edit war doesn't flare up again. We have to assume that that kind of sweeping bigotry (for lack of a better word) will not hold up, especially without any sources showing Laramie as internationally infamous for that murder. SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:56, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be interested in Scandinavian history. You might be interested in Talk:Svein, King of Norway.
Thank you sincerely, Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy, for this considerate invitation. I'm so glad to see you aren't still upset with me for wishing you'd change your user name to SpyingForQueenLiz (both I and II) or something equally attractive. Will do my best there, but I might have to be a bit unconventional in this case. SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:52, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, SergeWoodzing. I'm replying to your email regarding the template on the Jacob Truedson Demitz page and apologize for the delay. It's been some time since I worked on that article, so I'm not sure what's been done since then. According to the page historyUser:Thumperward added the template on June 17, 2011. Perhaps they can provide the details. Best regards, momoricks20:29, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I'm Ornithikos (sort of) and I thought I should reply here to your post that replied to mine on the Hippie talk page, so the page won't become an individual conversation. I assume you detect that I too am an aging hippie, an odd term since those who now wear it with honor never actually called called themselves hippies. The despair that I felt when the movement seemed to have vanished (or worse) was boundless, and discovering the larger historical perspective helped me enormously.
I expressed a more upbeat view than you in an effort to forestall any migration of the article to imply that, hordes of purported hippies being seen no longer, the underlying transcendental ideals are defunct. The Hippie article is, and hopefully will remain, a fairly accurate view of what really occurred and what it felt like. It is indeed an insider's viewpoint, as one comment charges, but how else could it be accurate at all? We cannot learn of Carthage from the Romans! Ornithikos (talk) 22:38, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delighted to hear from you. I loved being called at "hippie type" already then. And oh, how I miss my hair!
Both excellent, but that user does not care and will continue to expect us to be the clean-up crew. I can have no other balanced opinion based on quite a bit of experience with that user. SergeWoodzing (talk) 02:01, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Let's keep the two issues separate. Would you be so kind as to post something at the talk page, addressing only the proposed edits? I got my hand slapped once for making a change without checking in first, so I'd like something on the talk page. --SPhilbrickT02:22, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Characterizations in edit summaries
Please avoid using disparaging terms in edit summaries. I'm specifically talking about comments like this.[12] In this case "two parapgraphs of clean-up" would have been just as informative. The rest won't make anyone more proficient in English and it mere reflects poorly on you per WP:Civility.
The language there was atrocious and sloppy. You'd know that if your English was at a native, not (as you assert) near-nartive level. There can be a big difference.
Your advice is of no interest to me here and is unwanted.
I am unavailable to you for futher attempted reprimands.
Re your question re Jacob Truedson Demitz I have a guess, but not sure if I'm right, so I asked here. I'll try to monitor the answer, but I hope you will watch too. No matter what the answer, I'll offer to help, if the next steps aren't obvious to you.--SPhilbrickT12:12, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much! I have already asked here and have taken care of a few of those concerns since then, but I don't know if some of the references should be removed and [citation needed] tags added in the corresponding text (if there are serious problems?) and I don't understand if the newpaper articles should or should not be quoted, etc. Like you, I don't seem to understand the reason for the template. SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:22, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I do note, prompted by reading the other exchange, that footnote 15 has a wikilink, and a link to a commons picture. The first is wrong, one cannot use Wikipedia articles as sources, the second makes no sense to me, why have an image in a footnote. Maybe I'm missing the point (which, as an aside, may be the point), but it shouldn't be there. Help me understand what is intended by footnote 15 and I can help you fix it.--SPhilbrickT12:35, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The linked college is only the publisher of the cited publication; the image is of a diploma of sorts that additionally confirms the memberhip, as per advice given a previous editor on how to reference awards. I'm trying to find that advice. SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:21, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You expressed lack of knowledge of citation templates. First, they aren't hard, but if you do them by hand, they are painful. I wouldn't consider doing them by hand.
Can we check to see if you have the automated option?
On any page, click on the edit button. You will see the text box with some toolbars above it. If you see the word "templates" that's where they are. If you don't, please let me know.--SPhilbrickT22:04, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, I'm just too busy right now to study and learn new things like that, very confusing. Seems to me a lot of good work was done on that article by a number of users before, including bringing just about all the references up to par as per the advice of other experienced people. If there still are serious problems, they are going to have to be addressed more extensively by others, at least for now. Thank you again for all you kind concern! Sincerely yours, SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:16, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Aciram has now installed a spell checker; it doesn't seem to work on existing text, but it does work on new material she adds. I'm sorry that the two of you don't see eye to eye; I emphatically do not want to learn more about why this came about, I have no interest in figuring out who was more right and who was more wrong. I accept that she is trying to improve her editing, I hope you will "start over" and see if her contributions improve. Of course, a spell checker is no panacea, and some errors will inevitably remain. I have offered to review some of her contributions, so check the issues that won't show up with a spell checker. I appreciate you bringing this concern to my attention, I think we have found at least a partial solution; let's see if we can move forward and continue to build this encyclopedia. --SPhilbrickT13:49, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would appreciate not having that user on my talk page at all, neither in mentions by other users or in her own additions to it. I dearly hope she appreciates the help you are giving her. Let's leave it at that! Sincerely, SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:18, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'll do what I can. Thx for letting me know! Will have to wait a number of hours before I can get to it. Article seems to be a mishmosh of true and false. SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:59, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Gustav Vasa's name
Hi Serge
Regarding your revert of my edit to the Gustav Vasa article:
Although Swedes in general used patronyms instead of family names up to the mid 1850s, Swedish nobility had been using it at least since the 14th century in order to show their lineage. Also, from the late 16th century family names became very popular among priests, scientists and other intellectuals, often using latinised names. Famous examples of this are Carl Linnaeus, the large Celcius family (from Magnus Celsius to Anders Celsius), the Rudbeck family (from Johannes Rudbeckius to Olof Rudbeck the Younger), and the Nobel family (starting with Petrus Olai Nobelius in the 1670s).
As for examples in nobility, we have the Bonde family, the Bielke family, and the Grip family.
Regarding Gustav Vasa, he came from the Vasa noble family, which goes back to at least Nils Kettilsson Vasa, who lived in the mid 1350s. His mother was of the Eka family, which went back to at least the 1330s.
People with family names would also have a patronym, indicating who they were the son or daughter of, which is why Gustav Vasa's full name is given as Gustav Eriksson Vasa (as he was the son of Erik Johansson Vasa).
The actual usage of the family names varied. Some would use it as part of their name (when signing documents etc.), while others would just use their first name and patronym. Because of this varied usage, some Swedish genealogists prefer to write the family name in brackets after the patronym, while others just add it without brackets.
So, Gustav Vasa's family name should always be included in his pre-royal name, either within brackets or without. In the Swedish Wiki article they do it in brackets, but as this is a particular Swedish usage, with a meaning not understood in the English-speaking world, I think it's better to write it without brackets - which is also the normal practice when handling other Swedish nobility in English Wiki. As for Gustav himself, the fact that he became known throughout Sweden as Gustav Vasa during the rebellion against the Danes, indicates that he used his family name and actually preferred it - a family name gave you roots and separated you from the thousands of other Gustav Eriksson's in a country which usually used patronyms. His family was famous and old, which gave him clout needed for receiving support around the country.
Not including it in the first sentence also makes the dependent clause in the first sentence very strange: "born Gustav Eriksson and later known as Gustav Vasa". Did he change his name, and if so, why? If it instead says "born Gustav Eriksson Vasa and later known simply as Gustav Vasa", there is no confusion.
I must support Serge's revert here: while it is true that a few family names were in use among the higher nobility (like "Trolle" and "Sture"), the great majority did not use them. In many cases, this was not because they did not "like" them, they simply had no such name. Further, king Gustav was never referred to as "Gustav Vasa" in his own time; that is a much later invention.
And the idea that it is a genealogist practise to put family names within brackets is also wrong. AFAIK, historians also use them almost without exception, and has been doing so for quite some time.
Thomas: This "the fact that he became known throughout Sweden as Gustav Vasa ... indicates that he used his family name and actually preferred it" shows me that you are speculating and that you wish to base new information in WP's article about King Gustav on your own speculations. That is what we are not supposed to do. Don't do that, please! If you can find a reliable source that asserts that Gustav was né Vasa, by all means puts that in and cite that source! That's what we are supposed to do. I feel quite certain that no such source exists. SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:16, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I second this. People are already looking at the original thread - ANI is watched by lots of editors, and there's just no way that the thread could have been missed. Starting a second thread is only adding to the drama, and please remember that we are at ANI because we are trying to avoid drama. I recommend you remove the new thread, and wait for new developments. Best — Mr. Stradivarius♫13:23, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, thanks, I'll be glad to do this later today. The color image of both of them, your link #13 here, is pretty high quality and should suffice for portraits of both of them, rather than using #15 and #16, which I think are too dark and and unfortunately quite side-swiped. See what you think when I'm done, and let me know if you'd like the other 2 uploaded also! I can brighten them a bit but of cource can't fix the angle. SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:24, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I uploaded a cropped version too. Here it is. You can make the change yourself if you'd like. I used about the same version as the b/w was in, but you have a point. His face is more interesting than the surroundings for this use. SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:43, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
ANI
Next time, provide proof. Diff's that show: interaction issues, how you have tried to resolve them, how you have done an WP:RFC/U that still didn't resolve the issues. Without those things, an interaction ban will almost never be even discussed, let alone pass. (talk→BWilkins←track) 00:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
BWilkins: Thank you for taking the trouble to reply here! I thought that link, provided by an editor I consider neutral and helpful, would be enough to illustrate past problems. And I don't know how many times I must rehash the same peoblems in order to get help. At that time (the link) Commons had discussed Kuiper's reoccurring vengeful tactics at length, again, and I also felt that was helpful then in revealing them as used against me and other editors Kuiper dislikes and harasses. SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:59, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
PS Perhaps it is utopian to think that it should be enough, to get action, for any victim of it to report a known problem editor indulging in his usual and well documented form of harassment? SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:03, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll address your questions and remarks here instead of on ANI:
Yes, you have had dealings with me, if you can call them that. I responded to one of your ANI reports in June last year, see here. Note that I said basically the same thing to you there as I did this time around. It is also why I read all your previous ANI reports, not because of some unhealthy interest in you. I had to go fact-finding because you didn't provide any background info by way of diffs yourself. See a pattern here? Also, we encountered one another here. I wonder why you can't remember that. Do you know who I have never had any contact or dealings with? Pieter Kuiper. Your condescending bit about how we must be great friends because we're both Dutch is beyond ridiculous and just makes you look bad.
Now, I'm not attacking you, I'm criticizing you. You just can't go around name-calling like you do on ANI without the proper evidence to back it up. Really, answer me this. Why do you believe it is okay for you to say all those things, but when I call you out on it, I'm "blasting the living daylights out of you"? Do you have such a low threshold for criticism? Interestingly, you critize Lecen here for baseless insults, yet that's exactly what your doing as well. Apparently, as long as you are the one doing the name-calling, it's fair game.
You must realize that when you post a report on ANI, your side of story will be scrutinized. People aren't just going to take your word for it. Like Bwilkins says, try to back up your accusations with diffs next time. Note that a diff of PK helpfully providing a new image isn't going to help you get an interaction ban.--Atlan (talk) 10:49, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Atlan: I told you elsewhere that you and I have nothing to discuss. Please respect that by staying off my talk page! Apparently I have blocked you out of my mind before. That's what I'd like to do again. SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:51, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Respect has to go both ways. You show me none. Anyway, I'll stay away regardless as my words land on deaf ears. Happy editing.--Atlan (talk) 21:54, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But you didn't stay away did you? Desire to have the last say, I guess. That's always tempting.
Would never even enter my mind to try to criticize you on your talk page (see below!). Deaf ears is exactly right.
I respect you, that's why I don't want to argue about personal matters with someone whose standpoint I do not in any way understand. I am trying to avoid further conflict by avoiding people I consider hopelessly belligerent. I am not belligerent, that is I never start trouble. That's a fact. But I reserve the right to respond in any way I choose if anyone goes out of their way to insult and ridicule and badmouth me or anyone else who does not deserve it.
You have done your best to fan the flames on this one. You now have the opportunity to stop doing that. Take it! It's a good one.
Thought you might enjoy this. I don't think you need to post it there and clutter the thread, but since you asserted some past spellings might be different, you might be curious to know what variations they were (these are Portuguese, I've omitted Latin & foreign sources; from documents I already had at hand, I haven't bothered searching for later ones):
from a book published during the lifetime of John VI, (1792), we have the title: Collecção de livros ineditos de historia portugueza, dos reinados de D. Joaõ I., D. Duarte, D. Affonso V., e D. Joaõ II.[16]. Note that diacritic is on the 'o', not 'a'.
Some older documents:
Chancellary letters from John I, 1410s, from Monumenta Henricina, spells himself as "Dom Joham", [17]
Letters from chancellary of John II, 1490s: spells himself as "Dom Ioham" or "Dom Joham", [18] (note later letter of John III, as "Dom Johã")
Also as a condition of having Atlan not post to your talk page, you shouldn't be posting comments about him anywhere that he could feel a need to respond to. Probably obvious, but just making sure that's clear too. Prodegotalk23:25, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, SergeWoodzing. You have new messages at Talk:Dacia (disambiguation). Message added 16:26, 15 January 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Discussion of this topic is not welcome here on my talk page. If you really want to accuse me of ethnic bias, do so on the article's talk page and stay away from here! SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:53, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Notice of interaction ban
SergeWoodzing is under a voluntary six-month "no fault" interaction ban beginning immediately. During that time, SergeWoodzing voluntarily agrees not to:
make reference to or comment on Pieter Kuiper anywhere on Wikipedia, whether directly or indirectly; or
undo Pieter Kuiper's edits to any page (whether by use of the revert function or by other means).
An exception to (3) is that SergeWoodzing may raise concerns about Pieter Kuiper's behavior either at AN/I, or another suitable venue, or directly with an admin (specifically, he/she may contact Rannpháirtí anaithnid). If SergeWoodzing breaches this voluntary interaction ban, he/she may be blocked. However, merely agreeing to this voluntary interaction ban is not to be seen as a "black mark" against him/her or as an indication of poor conduct on his/her part. (00:55, 22 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
SergeWoodzing, I have closed your recent ANI thread where you agreed to a voluntary "no fault" interaction ban in respect to User:Pieter Kuiper. Consequently, you are now under an interaction ban per the above conditions.
I have notified Pieter Kuiper and have warned him/her that his/her behavior towards you will become more visible during this period and have warned him/her to be conscious of his/her behavior.
As a kind word, please, be very careful for the next six months: even though this ban is voluntary, you may be blocked if you breach it. DO NOT interact with Pieter Kuiper for the next six months unless you want to risk being blocked.
I must say I find myself rather disappointed in both you, as well as the way you choose to express yourself. From my experience you appear to have a tendency to cause or dive into frays as often as possible, voicing your complaints of others while you yourself seem to have no problems taking to rude or plain abusive language. Your editing comment, and its confrontational tone, is not only redundant; it is irrelevant and without ground. On several occasions, during the editing process on the Swedish project, I have found myself on the receiving end of your gibes, and I am quite fed up with your snotty behaviour. I actually start to suspect that the aversion you display towards me is only founded in the fact that on several occasions I have intercepted your attempts to introduce articles about yourself and your friends. If you actually had any interest in proper NPOVs, not to mention a decent editing comment, you ought to have noticed Sjö's and later Steinberger's edits. The only thing you might possibly achieve with your crass attempts to appear in better light by implying that the contributions I’ve made to Wikipedia are inadequate and biased is to fuel further conflicts. My substantial NPOV contributions to the Swedish project are well known and recognized by our fellow peers and editors. The fact that you claim POV in your editing comment while removing referenced information from the article makes your accusations even less credible. However, instead of keeping up this unproductive conflict between us I would like to suggest that we cast our differences aside. Let us instead focus our energy on our Wikipedia-contributions and advance our aspirations for unbiased, informative, and well referenced articles.
It is allowed to remove anything that is of no importance to WP work from one's own talk page, at least it is so here on enWP.
It is not appropriate for you to reverse any such thing on anyone else's talk page.
With respect to your final sentence here, OK I must recognize your attempt at a truce, after having first slung a whole paragraph of mud at me. I will leave your text here for now, for at least 24 hours, and give you a chance to cool off and read what you wrote more carefully and strike strike things that are unfounded in fact, and thus cannot be substantiated by you or anyone else, or otherwise inappropriate.
In order for you to accuse me of trying to promote my "friends" on WP, I believe you would have to know my actual private identity. Such references of yours here, aside from being misrepresentions of facts (I have removed a lot of fluff and other garbage from articles about people I know and am on good terms with) are not appropriate or becoming to you.
It looks to me like you may be indulging in a little indirect and/or sly attempt to out me here.
You have widely broadcast your political views in public yourself under your WP user names, and made me and thousands of others aware of them, so I just cannot consider you neutral in some of your editings on political and ideological matters.
Of course, every person involved in politics would like to promote h views as much as possible, and I fully respect the right everyone has to do that - elsewhere, but not on WP where we must be neutral.
If in 24 hours you have not stricken your aggressive and belligerent and other inappropriate comments above, I will either strike them myself, or remove this whole section again. It will then be impossible for me, I'm sorry, to take your alleged attempt at conciliation seriously, thrown in as a final sentence after all that diatribe and acrimony. You can hardly expect "peace" after such brutal conquest and subjugation. SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. Works well with your tweak, "A number"; If you google/images GG Stamps, you'll see there are eight, including one from the Ivory Coast and another from Cuba. Also Germany and several from Sweeden. May be should say "Many"? Should we add "from a several nations." Your thoughts?--Classicfilmbuff (talk) 16:24, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanx! I think "a number of" or "several" is OK for 8-10 countries out of the world's 180 or so. It's fun to know she generated all that postal interest. I met her once briefly in 1981. SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:17, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Good day, Serge
I want to ask you a favour. Can I put here a little text of a portuguese article's translation so you could correct my bad english? It is more or less 30 lines. Salut, Jorge alo (talk) 18:39, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much. I think I will take more or less a week to finish my (bad) translation. Then, I will put it here. A great salut, or, in portuguese, um grande abraço. Jorge alo (talk) 17:22, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for helping and asking! I see no reason why any phonetically obstructive foreign language words ever should be added to any article on English WP if and when it is not necessary. In that case it is not, and it especially inappropriate because the direkt link is all in English, as preferred by policy.
Can't see where any parallelism could be significant enough in that case. King Sigismund of Poland and Sweden had daughters too, but why should we call them Sigismundsdotter (or Polish equivb) in English?
Richeza wasn't even known as Valdemarsdotter in her own time in Sweden, so there is even less reason to call her that ever in English.
Her sister Marianne "Marina" (a new article by Aciram) doesn't have known years that would allow us to name her article in the format of her sister Ingiburga (Sw: Ingeborg), but I will research that.
Hi. I certainly have no general bone to pick with 'phonetic empathy' (as you term it); I'm perfectly fine with exonyms that have become regularized in English, such as 'Cologne' rather than 'Köln'. But I thought they were inappropriate for this list for several reasons: 1) The list was a weird hodgepodge of Swedish, English, and Latin names. 2) Many of the exonyms in use seemed (in my admittedly inexpert experience) to be fairly obscure themselves, not at all regularized in everyday English. 3) Most importantly, readers' natural tendency will be to read this article in conjunction with Provinces of Sweden and it makes a lot of sense to have a common system at both pages. It seems to me that if you really want to promote your exonyms, you should try to get them accepted on that page first (which is certainly a much higher-traffic one than this). 4) Finally, there was a forest-for-trees problem going on: the article's attention seemed in danger of wandering away from its actual ducal content toward a tangential discussion of province names.
With regard to the alphabetical ordering of special Swedish characters: I don't have a horse in this race myself: but I would like this article and Provinces of Sweden to follow a similar methodology. Once again: people will tend to read the two pages in conjunction; and if you really think Swedish alphabetical norms are inappropriate for the Wikipedia your cause would be better promoted there.
With regard to the cross-references — I really don't see what they added besides clutter. Anybody who is scanning the list will see the alternative names beside the Swedish ones; anybody who comes to the list looking for a specific name can use control-f to search the page for the name in question just as easily as they can find it alphabetically in the list. Bear in mind that this isn't a book index or a card catalogue or a hefty telephone directory, something in which people frequently make focused alphabetical searches: it's simply a list of fewer than 25 provinces, which will mostly be read, not searched.
With regard to the list of omitted provinces — yes, you're certainly right, the notion that these seven provinces have never been granted is certainly the motivation for that section. (Indeed, to tell the truth, the lack of that section is what brought me to this article today: I wanted to know if any provinces had been overlooked by history.) But! I didn't feel comfortable making the claim that those seven provinces "have never had any dukes or duchesses" since I have absolutely no expertise or sources to call on. I could have assumed that the article as it stood was authoritative; but that's a big assumption to make and obviously an article can't cite an earlier version of itself as a source. Do you have the requisite expertise / sources to put a footnote on that claim you added? If not, we'd better try to come up with another wording that motivates the section without making unjustified claims.
Finally, would you be ok with deleting Stegeborg altogether? It violates the principle set down in the paragraph above that the list "excludes minor duchies (individual towns, manors, mines, estates)" and probably snuck in by accident, I imagine? Cheers, Doops | talk08:49, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Stegeborg cannot be excluded in a list that "excludes minor duchies (individual towns, manors, mines, estates)", since it was none of the above. It was a county at that time.
Excluding cross-references would seem to violate guidelines on clarity. People looking for East Gothland are not apt to look under O-- (or Ö--). Perhaps you know Swedish and that's why you find these things obvious?
Finding a reference acceptable to WP that states literally that France, Thailand, Hawaii and Mongolia never have had Elizabeth II as their head of state is about what you are asking for. Those provinces have never had dukes - they have never been on any published list of provinces that have.
I am not going to police the alphabet all over - will make the change you desire, however. The letter 'Ö', as a matter of fact, does not exist in the English language and thus cannot be used in alpbabetizing anything in English. Wherever we see things like that being done, it's wrong. SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:45, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Richardice of Sweden until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. RA (talk) 23:21, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Adopt-a-user
Hi Serge! I'm one of those chaps that hang out at Adopt-A-User. Just thought I would suggest that you'd do quite well to snoop though the list of adopters and see if there's one that you think you'd do well with, then drop him or her a message. I'm currently working to reboot the system, it's in quite a lull at the moment and I seem to be adopting everyone myself! Good luck finding an adopter, let me know if you've got any questions. WormTT· (talk) 11:41, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Stop being accusatory, please! I only "insist" we use free images. It would be great to have a new one in this case, but WP isn't supposed to use images with copyright issues and/or unclear origins. In its short life span, that article has already had a long history of attempts to add images that are not clearly free. Just like the others, the problem image you added has been deleted at Commons. Wouldn't WP work be easy if we could add any images we found!?!?!?!?!!! SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:35, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Garbo
[Comment moved here from my user page - SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:23, 3 April 2012 (UTC)]
Hi there Serge, No ability to start new section on your p. so here I am. Sorry. Just wondering out of curiosity what your latest edit was to the Garbo p: Category:People illustrated on Swedish banknotes]]. Where was that shown? Thanks,--Classicfilmbuff (talk) 22:28, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand (1) why you posted this on my user page, as if that were my talk page, nor (2) what you mean by "Where was that shown?" The category, if that's what youi mean, was shown where categories usually are shown in the editable text, near the article bottom. I removed the category as per WP:CBALL since no such bank notes have been issued and are only scheduled for possible issue in 2014 at the earliest. Is that what you meant? SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:27, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Whoaah there. 1) I inadvertently wrote on your user p. because I'm unfamiliar with user pp. Don't know what they're for. So, I thought I was writing on your talk page. (I've rewritten the GG p but still don't ustand a lot of WP's protocols. I.e., I'm dumb.) Anyway, please accept my appology for this mistake. 2) I've never dealt with the categories at the bottom of the p., and since I'm dumb, as I say, I'm not sure what change you made. But, judging from your explanation, it's obviously important so thanks! Greetings,--Classicfilmbuff (talk) 15:12, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
She met a handsome yooung man at that time, who according to her "spoke to me in beautiful Swedish" when she was on her way to a party in her friend Alfredo De La Vega's building in West Hollywood. He later said that she was in hight spirits over that meeting and stayed longer than usual. She walked with a cane at the time, but still went out for her habitual long walk after dinner - had the same recognizable page-boy coif (though grey) and seemed alert, though she held a handkerchief in her hand and put it in front of her mouth, as she was known to do when talking to strangers.
Hi there. How fascinating! Thanks for encouragement in learning the vagaries of WP. Now. Important thing. I just read Broman's book and you were right about her explanation to him about her reason for retiring. So I just added it to the article. Friends and colleagues did add their thoughts about her retirement, but her explanation to Broman is significant and correlates with her deep unhappiness in Hollywood (and about her work) which she regularly wrote about in letters to friends. But please accept my apology for dismissing your comment a while back. Enjoy your many projects with WP! Take care,--Classicfilmbuff (talk) 20:32, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Dispute resolution survey
Dispute Resolution – Survey Invite
Hello SergeWoodzing. I am currently conducting a study on the dispute resolution processes on the English Wikipedia, in the hope that the results will help improve these processes in the future. Whether you have used dispute resolution a little or a lot, now we need to know about your experience. The survey takes around five minutes, and the information you provide will not be shared with third parties other than to assist in analyzing the results of the survey. No personally identifiable information will be released.
Please click HERE to participate.
Many thanks in advance for your comments and thoughts.
Thank you! As you probably know, I'm always interested in promoting the use of English on this project if and when nothing else is reasonable and timely. SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:17, 22 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think the very interesting photo of the Mae West Centenary group is quite relevant to what was going on in the subject person's life at the time (1993), and you'll find that Wikipedia doesn't care whether or not a bio'd person likes what's in h article, as long as there is nothing defamatory, of course. That photo is in no way controversial. SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Frankie and Johnny
Simply put, a picture of a nonnotable group of singers, who are alleged to be singing the song which is the article's subject, but which group is never discussed anywhere in the article, is not, by any standard I can imagine, relevant. This could be just anybody singing any song, we have no way of knowing. How do you make the case that it is relevant? As for it being the only image in the article, that is not relevant either. The article could have other images, if one searched and found images that actually illustrated the subject. This one, as far as I can tell, does not. ---RepublicanJacobiteTheFortyFive00:11, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would never have uploaded the image to Commons using an established OTRS there if there had been the slightest doubt in my mind that it is a legitimate rendering of the song on a well known New York stage. The group's Facebook page clearly shows that the song has been in its regular repertoire for years. A bit of research, in other words, makes the image relevant to me, where I put it in, of course not as a main photo for the whole article about the song, but at least relevant to that section. Shall we let others comment too, on the article's talk page? SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:42, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll be glad to if you'll have another think about you-know-what (which you've said you've thought about before anyway, long before I brought it up). The deal isn't that you do it, just that you have another good constructive think about it. OK? SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:30, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We may not be talking about the same thing. I meant something almost too sentive for me to dare mention again. The only time we really got into a big fix. Now I'm curious as to what you mean. Sounds juicy. Going off now for about an hour. Later! SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:46, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You are talking about the name change right. I was adding this when edit conflict occurred...And would you mind giving me a number of suggestions because I am not really in the mood to think up one. RoyaltyChamp just doesn't sound right. Could I retain the same meaning but remove the Queen's name since she'll die soon, like HRM's Spy?...--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 19:50, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It seems not. Danes call hom "joint King" with his father but don't seem to count him independantly as King.
Totte Dellert
Hi Serge, i was adding some new references to the article and i see its at all very difficult with the wikipedia community attitude for new articles and content. So now the article has 3 warning marks. Especially about the notability iam concerned. Here is an attitude that you first of all shoot then ask, interesting to me if someone has not a sufficient knowledge about a matter. Especially its more difficult if there is a less digitalized background - fine arts, musicals, punk - and a swedish name - which various a lot from totte dellert to thomas dellacroix. Can you help - the admin joe dekker, marked and deleted all, and i missed to undo the mark - to get rid of the warning marks and to improve the article? Thx Sebarts (talk) 01:40, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but I've done as much as I can here, and I'm not knowlegeable enough to do more. It must be shown, by adding more neutral references/sources, that Dellert/Dellacroix/Dollar has made cultural contributions that are interesting enough to the general reader that he will be considered notable and the criticism in that regard can be removed. Has any major newspaper anywhere ever written an article or a review about him? Or has there been any television coverage of him and his career? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 02:14, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
PS I've now added a couple of well referenced sentences about his stage debut in 1975, which I've accessed through the Ristesson files. Besides the photo from the 1993 West Centenary with all those Swedish celebrities, that I added before, I'm afraid I have nothing else. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 02:34, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Dispute Resolution IRC office hours.
Hello there. As you expressed interest in hearing updates to my research in the dispute resolution survey that was done a few months ago, I just wanted to let you know that I am hosting an IRC office hours session this coming Saturday, 28th July at 19:00 UTC (approximately 12 hours from now). This will be located in the #wikimedia-officeconnect IRC channel - if you have not participated in an IRC discussion before you can connect to IRC here.
The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #1)
Welcome to the first edition of The Olive Branch. This will be a place to semi-regularly update editors active in dispute resolution (DR) about some of the most important issues, advances, and challenges in the area. You were delivered this update because you are active in DR, but if you would prefer not to receive any future mailing, just add your name to this page.
Steven Zhang's Fellowship Slideshow
In this issue:
Background: A brief overview of the DR ecosystem.
Research: The most recent DR data
Survey results: Highlights from Steven Zhang's April 2012 survey
Activity analysis: Where DR happened, broken down by the top DR forums
DR Noticeboard comparison: How the newest DR forum has progressed between May and August
Discussion update: Checking up on the Wikiquette Assistance close debate
Had the four reverts been on an article page, or an article talk page? If they were on an article talk page, then the history is still present in the talk page rather than the archive. Also, the 3RR rule usually applies to article pages. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:51, 16 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In my experience, reports are not ignored unless they are "stale", that is, if the edit-warring was in the past and is not continuing, in which case the edit-warrior may be warned rather than blocked. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Though I now can expect never-ending tirades, I've commented as well as I can right now. Pressed for time with other matters - life outside WP. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:49, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Kinda silly, but just wanted to clarify that I didn't write that statement, I just moved it/improved the grammar, so it at least were a bit more coherent. Assuming the "(I see nothing in that cited article to warrant a WP speculation such as ' Possibly being caused by the implementation of more neoliberal policies in the last decades.'.)" was directed at me. Dux Ducis Hodiernus (talk) 14:58, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not directed at anyone, but thanx for writing to me anyway. I always feel that whenever we can, we should avoid any and all political observations, speculations, accusations and the like. Here, the source does not even "possibly" take sides, as I read it. That problem (racism and discrimination) has been getting steadily worse in Sweden for 3-4 decades, despite some hypocritical posing and cosmetic action by all the established political movements, and it cannot fairly be attributed to any particular government. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:06, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone has their own viewpoint about that, and it really depends on personal experience and the way people define this "racism". There's a term in Swedish; 'Smygrassar'. It's two words basically, first smyg = secretly/sneaky. Rassar is a slang for rasister, or racists in english. Basically we recognize that we all(not even limited to Swedes, humans in general) are subject to prejustices and subconscious 'discrimination'. However, in terms of direct racism; There isn't much really. Jantelagen doesn't have any restriction on races y'know.
I can't really see what you mean by it "[...]been getting steadily worse in Sweden for 3-4 decades[...]" though. Apart from anecdotal/opinionated arguments anyways.
Do you live in Sweden? How deep are your ties with the country? I mean, no country is perfect, that is usually presumed in most wikipedia articles about different nations. As a Swede it does feel plausible that this need to mention these somewhat smaller issues left out from many other, more problematic countries, stem from what some, like possibly yourself, people that got the impression that Sweden claims its perfect. We don't. We do however know that Sweden is doing pretty well in the larger scale of things, and it's something that we appreciate. Dux Ducis Hodiernus (talk) 17:44, 30 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Since you asked, I have lived in Sweden for long periods for over 50 years now and have worked with young people of all kinds of ethnic backgrounds. Racism is rampant (not subconscious), believe me, and it's maddening that all Swedes don't admit it, learn to be very very ashamed of it and deal with it one of these decades. I had to choose once between the opinion that 95% of Swedes really are racists (while posing as the opposite) or that 5% are. 95 may be going too far, but it's more like it than 5. People who were discriminated most vilely (i.e. with horrifying hypocrisy) when they were young immigrants now have children and grandchildren who have all had the same experience. And government after government makes sure not to pass effective legislation against that discrimination. Smiling and passing someone off as less valuable, or as an ethnic spice in your social life, a thing, is much worse that doing it with the honesty of a frown. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is my talk page, not an article discussion. Here, all I need is my first-hand, eye-witness experience with racism and discrimination in Sweden, and there's been a huge amount of that for decades. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All you need, maybe. However that's not enough for a good discussion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, just understand that that's all it is, your opinion. Don't treat it as anything else. Also feel the need to point up your own previous statements right here on the talk page, as they're quite contradictory to your last statement.
"Let's stick to the facts! OK? SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC)"
"Let's even supply/quote reliable sources! OK? SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC)"
Of course you're free to disregard previous set standards as you feel, at least as far as I'm concerned. I did feel like pointing it out though, for purposes of consistency.
The facts I'm sticking to here on my talk page are the ones that have been proven to me hundreds of times. I am under no obligation to you about them.
If you start an article about Sweden, a wonderfully non-racist nation (or the like) I will be glad to provide plenty of sources there - not here - to dispute such a title.
I thought you came here to ask me a question, which I answered as frankly and honestly as I could. It now appears, however, that you came here to pick a fight and to lecture me in a somewhat condescending manner as to what behavior of mine you will approve of, and what you will not approve of, here on my own talk page. It has also become quite clear to me that you have worked yourself into quite a grump now over that fact that you don't like my opinions, based on my many years of experience in the midst of all the disgusting racism and discrimination in Sweden. I'm used to Swedes getting grumpy when they hear these facts (rather than getting interested in solving these horrendous problems), so that's not my problem with you. You are free to believe and argue as you please, but not to lecture me on my own talk page about things I probably have much more experience in than you. If that's all this has become, please stop and go away! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:58, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The 3O guideline on staleness is just above the "Active disagreements" label on the 3O page, and reads: "Requests are subject to being removed from the list if no volunteer chooses to provide an opinion within six days after they are listed below. If your dispute is removed for that reason (check the history to see the reason), please feel free to re-list your dispute if you still would like to obtain an opinion." When an article is more than six days old, it is "stale." Serge, as you know there are just so many volunteers at 3O and if no one has taken a request after six days, then no one is likely to take it. There's no limit at the present time on how many times it can be relisted, but unless the discussion is continuing at the article talk page then every relisting brings it a little bit closer to being denied for there not being any recent discussion (and the lack of discussion also implies that there is silent consensus for leaving the article the way it is unless there is still some back-and-forth editing going on). I really think that you'd be better off giving up on 3O and moving on to some other form of dispute resolution, such as RFC, DRN, or MedCom. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:34, 11 October 2013 (UTC)PS: If you decide to move on, be sure to withdraw the request at 3O or your new filing elsewhere will probably be denied. — TM 21:35, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for explaining! One thing I get from your reply is that it would be a good idea for me to correct the WP invention again and thus get this inappropriate addition to stop being given the silent treatment and ignored. I'll try that now, since there is no factual basis whatsoever for any contrived consensus in this case, in favor of an obvious WP invention. :I'm also strongly tempted to ask for a sock-puppet check on that IP that called me "disruptive" after Surtsicna already had asserted that I had been called that. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:44, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Just be sure not to edit war, Serge. Just doing it once to see if it will stick is probably okay, but don't revert again if you get reverted. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:58, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sincere thanks for your concern! I try to be very careful not to revert in a warlike manner. As a matter of fact, I've been very surprised at what a few other experienced and appreciated editors are able to get away with, in multiple reverts within only a few munites or hours, such as I would never dare permit myself to make. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:13, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited AlexCab, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Debut (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.
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Bonjour Serge, Dunkerqueenflandre de wiki France, je vois que vous avez bon niveau de français je préfère vous parler dans la langue de Molière alors.
j'ai créé l'article sur la Princesse Leonore avec surtout comme source le site de la Maison Royale.
Mais une discussion s'est installée comme j'ai pu le voir sur Wikipedia Grande-Bretagne et Wikipedia Suède :
a) est elle bien de la Maison Bernadotte ? pour moi c'est clair par la lignée maternelle et surtout elle est cinquième dans l'ordre de succession cela ne fait pas de doute.
b) le 20 février 2014 lorsque la Princesse est née elle est :
son altesse royale princesse Leonore et le 26 février 2014 Son Altesse royale la princesse Leonore de Suède, duchesse de Gotland ?
OU le 20 février Leonore et le 26 février 2014 Son Altesse royale la princesse Leonore de Suède, duchesse de Gotland ?
I agree with this observation. While I agree with the substance of what you said, you might do well to read meatball:DefendEachOther; sometimes it's much more effective to let others (independently) get that word in for you (and often, when nobody says it, it doesn't need saying). Anyhow, I backed out of that discussion for now, though I should say I think on the substantive issue (whether that item at Götaland requires sourcing) I could go either way. I encourage you to participate more in the discussion and try to find a source that satisfies the need for one. More people have watchlisted that suite of articles now, so if problems persist, there may be others getting involved. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 00:47, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am sincerely sorry. I did indeed have some misgivings about writing there, but finally succumbed to the temptation to try to defend myself, when my name was being used so much and my person was being discussed so much at the expense of the actual article issues.
I don't see how I could be too helpful however in finding sources to substantiate something that I honestly feel could be hard to substantiate at all. Having done what little I could, I find absolutely nothing on the origin of that word as spelled in modern English. I really do wonder where geat comes from. Obviously, that's why I'm questioning this in the first place. Couldn't it be natural to require a source for something that one suspects actually has no reliable source? I honestly think geat is an invention, based on legitimate phonetics but not a legitimate label on its own for any people, but I can't figure out by whom. That has been my gut feeling since I saw it for the first time around 2005. And otherwise wouldn't it be quite easy for my opponents to come up with a source for its specific etymology? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:57, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I think I get where you're coming from Serge, and here's my take on it: If "Geat" is used in the academic literature without question, then it's probably appropriate to use it. If there's a dispute about using "Geat" mentioned in the literature, we may also comment on it. However, just because we might suspect it's an invention doesn't mean we require a source to show it isn't—the end result is original research, since it would most likely depend upon finding attestations and applying knowledge about historical linguistics in a manner not previously published, which I strongly suspect violates WP:NOR. Basically, this is the idea:
Is "Geat" routinely used in the literature in the manner the article uses it? If so, it's probably fine without a source. If not, a source explaining why it's appropriate might be necessary (a mere attestation, in my view, does not count, as it's a primary source)
Supposing we can use "Geat" per the above item, if we want to question its use, then we need a source indicating such use is questioned. In that case, we comment on the controversy, rather than removing the term entirely, giving due weight to each side of the dispute. In other words, if "Geat" is a fringe theory, it gets less weight; if "Geat" being invented is a fringe theory it gets less weight.
If we can't use "Geat" based on the first point, then it's unsourced and likely subject to removal, especially if there's a reasonable argument (even without secondary sources) by the person calling for its removal. In short, consensus likely rules in this situation, though the experienced people at WP:NORN or WikiProject Linguistics might be the best sources for outside assistance.
You are right that it should be fairly easy for those in favor of "Geat" to provide a source, but in the case of things that seem obvious to people (despite it being tremendously not the case if you think about it) nobody may have written about it properly. Last year I was involved in a dispute at United States about whether the phrase "United States" referred merely to the country consisting of fifty states, or to the fifty states plus American territories and dependencies. It's a very complex issue, and many sources were presented for either side... but the problem always was that they were arguably primary sources for the definition (despite being secondary or even tertiary sources for the main arguments they made). Anyway, I hope that explanation helps. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 22:53, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! I've never claimed the word does not exist in literature. Actually, I'm only trying to (get) focus on the word's etymology. I think the reader has the right to know where and when that specific word first was used in modern English and how the Old English word evolved from géatas and began to be used in modern English. As you may have seen from some of User:Andejons's input, there are many Swedes who question the claim that götar and geats actually are the same historic people, whereas I have no definite opinion on that. But that's why I think it's particularly important to try to find out where geats comes from, especially when it spreads and proceeds, in enWP articles, to be used as Geatland and lands of the Geats to describe a modern section of Sweden. It was these additions to Götaland that set off an alarm with me. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:31, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
PS I still don't understand why this is all about me. Since two of you helpful guys don't want me to write there, it feels quite frustrating not to be able to stand up to outrageous accusations about me, such as my alleged assertions that Geats as a word or as a people have never existed. That's pretty darn wild. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:25, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, so here's the thing: If the academic literature uses "geats" to refer to those people from Götaland, then it's appropriate to keep the term in there. If the term "geatland" doesn't appear in the literature, it might be appropriate to remove it (essentially per WP:NFT/WP:NEO). Now, getting to the etymology... the problem is we can't include original research here. It has to be something published. If you have found some published source that contests the Geats connection, then great, we can probably include it and make everyone happy. If not, then the most likely outcome is that we don't even acknowledge it (basically unless it's so patently obvious that we're feeding our readers falsehoods that it'd be remiss of us to leave the information unchecked). These sorts of concerns are important when it comes to ethnic and cultural disputes, which I get the feeling is very much at the core of this. It also seems to me that WP:TRANSCRIPTION may be part of the issue: is it OR if it's a translation? Generally no, if that translation is faithful. So if we're dealing with a dispute over whether a translation is faithful... I think the people at WP:NORN might know better how the policies work with respect to that.
As to the statements made at JesseRafe's user talk, I advise you to just leave it be because making an issue of it won't help anybody. Just make your own position clear when you articulate it and stick to the content rather than the contributor. It gives your arguments substantial credibility, whereas claims of dishonesty or abuse of power do the opposite. I understand it's difficult to leave that sort of thing be... believe me on that. But in my experience doing just that is the most effective technique here. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 02:15, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
OK, but is it not reasonable - even important - to want to see a source re: the specific etymology of the word? When was it first usd in standard modern English? How can that be so difficult if there are academic sources? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 02:27, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reasonable, yes. Important, maybe. If there's an inkling of a dispute in academia, probably (especially if our readers are likely to notice and wonder about on their own). As to the answer to the question, I don't honestly know: for historical linguistics, my preference is to check the OED, but the OED doesn't even have an entry for "geat" or "geats" (other than as an alternative spelling for "gate"). But that isn't definitive, might be meaningless if it's a loanword, and is definitely not an indication that "geat" or "geats" doesn't mean what it has been claimed to mean (its actual use in practice by academics is what we should roughly follow for actual usage).
By the way, the way you'd word it in an article would be "The earliest attestation of "[word]" in [name of source] comes in [year], in [description of work containing attestation]." If you lack a source like the OED or an etymological treatise, you could probably get away with using a primary source this way: "One attestation of [word] occurs in [description of work containing attestation], which dates to [year]." It's a bit questionable to do so, but I think it's a good compromise, so long as you don't describe it as "the earliest attestation," or even "an early attestation." As an aside, I'd actually been interested in writing a Wikipedia essay on sourcing of etymologies and attestations, and best practices when writing about such matters, though I never really got around to it (this was borne out of the issue at United States I mentioned before).
I understand your frustration in terms of getting a source from the other side in the dispute. One practice I've tried at times, and what I think is done by those experienced in formal mediation (as opposed to the smokejumper approach I tend to take with disputes), is to sit down and concisely restate the dispute as I understand it, in neutral terms, and use that as a new starting point. This can serve to cut all tangents that the conversation has taken, and ensure that we're all on the same page. It's at least my experience that a prolonged dispute, while ostensibly about the issue, tends to get confused and off track. Anyhow, I think I should finish this post before it becomes a treatise. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 04:10, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly wish a source could be found and added, in whatever form you feel would be OK. I've looked too, as I've said befoe, and I just don't think there is one. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 04:15, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So perhaps it's time to restate the question at the talk page, ask whether those in favor of retaining agree and can provide sources, and if no consensus can be reached, open it up to the greater community either via the Wikiprojects I mentioned over at WP:EAR (WT:LING might be helpful as well) or the RfC process. I know that it shouldn't be so complex to remove an unsourced statement, but something definitional... I can understand where they're coming from at least. Orin Kerr recently wrote in The Green Bag, somewhat satirically, about the problem of law journal editors' demands that something patently obvious should be sourced. While I don't think that's the case here, I believe that perception is part of the reason you're meeting such opposition. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 04:39, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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Your characterization of the behavior of XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk·contribs) at Talk:Jacqueline_Kennedy_Onassis#Proposed_move as "constant bullying and mostly irrelevant comments"[37] is inappropriate and disrespectful. It's certainly not bullying, and, at least in my opinion, his comments are quite relevant.
Commenting in these discussions is not about letting others know what you think - so it doesn't matter whether we all know what he thinks yet or not. What matters is what the arguments are, and whether they stand up to scrutiny. SNUGGUMS is offering scrutiny, and that's a good thing. --B2C00:41, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If a comment like "What tabloids call her is extremely moot." (my bold) is what you find "quite relevant", then either you and I are hopelessly at odds about the English language, or you just aren't in much of a position to give be behavioral instructions. I am much more concerned about the very disagreeable disrespectfulness shown on that page toward the name and life of Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis (whom I knew personally) than I am about your opinion re: my being disrespectful to that WP editor. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:29, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Stated simply, editors should always treat each other with consideration and respect.
In my view, your comment violated that policy. SNUGGUMS' comment was not disrespectful to any editor, nor did it violate any policy. It certainly did not warrant a nasty hyperbolic ("bullying") comment. --B2C18:01, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You have stated your opinon already, and repeating it over and over here (like your protegé does on that page) won't help you. Consideration and repect is what was lacking in that editor's behavior, I think, long before I commented on it. But I will revise that one word of mine now. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:14, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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Hi, the image you uploaded for Anniversary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anniversary), is not really conveying the concept of Anniversary, do you mind if I upload a more fitting image?
I am swedish and don't mind pics of our King, but there might be more anniversary worthy photos out there :)
You are principally wrong. That article begins with "An anniversary is a day that commemorates or celebrates a past event that occurred on the same date of the year as the initial event." That, and the most official moment on that day, is exactly what the image shows. If you have a more fitting image, you can try it. I will reverse it if it's is not more fitting. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:34, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Your rollback request
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grew. Eric also made unsuccessful marriage proposals to, among others, [Mary, Queen of Scots]] (1542–87), [[Renata of Lorraine]] (1544–1602), [[Anna of Saxony]] (1544–77) and [[Christine of
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Thank you! What I was worried about was mainly the quality of a possible deluge of allegedly relevant images created by less-than-knowledgeable contributors to promote their own artwork. Every good wish to you. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:58, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Grace Kelly
Hello,
We are contacting you because we are Cornell students who are currently taking an Online Communities class and one of our projects consists on editing a Wikipedia page. Our final goal is to accurately inform readers and to improve an article from a C class level to a B. We chose to work on Grace Kelly's page. Since you have previously edited her page, we wanted to reach out to you and ask for any tips, advice, or important aspects that you would like us to consider when we start working. We would like to add features of her personal life, professional achievements, and her legacy in different areas–especially focused on fashion.
Thank you! I'm no expert on Grace and have not contributed to the article as far as I can remember. My main objection is that the article name should be Grace of Monaco because that's how she was known for most of her life. In any case Princess of Monaco should be in bold type in the article's lede, if the article name is to remain Grace Kelly.
Today, the info box reads (top) Grace Kelly and (just below the photo) Princess consort of Monaco. As Princess of Monaco her name was not Grace Kelly; "princess consort" is not a title but a specalized description of what kind of princess she was; and the photo over ''Princess consort of Monaco shows her before she was that. It all looks ridiculous to me. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:58, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the interesting input. We'll see if we find any sources in our research pertaining to Grace's title. In the mean time, would you mind looking at the sources that we posted on the Grace Kelly article's talk page? Kategruenberg (talk) 00:54, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Aside from a rather ridiculous name format like "Grace Kelly of Monaco" (sort of like titling a book Silvia Sommerlath of Sweden) they look OK to me. But I don't see anything there about Grace of Monaco which was her name for most of her life. In my opinion y'all need to decide which is more important in the real world: (1) her place in entertainment & fashion history along with a lot of other good looking gals or (2) her place in world history as the actively involved consort of a royal head of state. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:53, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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it is possible, actually, at least in theory, to correct language mistakes without being rude. "Swenglish", "galore", what have you. I make no "dictionary translations". I'm not a native speaker... but that what's the cooperative part of this project is for, no? --90.237.12.156 (talk) 02:03, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A good start, usually, is to comment on what you are doing rather than what others have done. "Improving language", "better English", "language fixes" "idiomatic English" are examples of much nicer ways of telling me you have improved my English, without hinting at its suckiness. --90.237.12.156 (talk) 02:09, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That article contained precisely Swenglish galore, but I had no idea whose fault that was. Nor do I understand how that truthful comment of mine could be offensive to you or anyone else. If you help me improve any of my text, I will thank you sincerely, not appear on your talk page to reprimand you. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 05:51, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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"Good Morning" SergeWoodzing: Thanks for all of your contributions to improve Wikipedia! 13 December is the day when Swedes perplex the rest of the world by showing up way too early in the morning dressed in white tunics, candles in their hair, singing and bringing saffron buns and breakfast in bed to nice people. Hope you have a bright day! –
w.carter-Talk00:47, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Continuing discussion on importance classifications after being asked not to
Please be careful about what you say to people. Some remarks, such as your addition to User talk:Tomas e can easily be misinterpreted. Wikipedia is a supportive environment, where contributors should feel comfortable and safe while editing. This includes continuing discussions on user talk pages after clearly being asked not to, as well as making threats the way you did. Thank you. Tomas e (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you take what I wrote as a "threat" that's on you, not me. It all depends on what you continue to do or not do. If you by "safe" mean that you should be able to behave as you please in downgrading the life stories of hundreds of BLP articles, I think you are asking way way way too much. Don't come here to try to police me, after what you've done! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:14, 31 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think fair warning is civil, not uncivil. Take it to heart! It's fair. That's a very nice English word. It's not harassment if we keep track of each other's poor behavior in case it gets worse and worse and needs to be addressed for the sake of the project. Your assessment of hundreds of biographies as of "Importance: Low", based only on your unqualified personal opinions, is biased and highly inappropriate. WP needs to be protected from you if you go on and on doing that. I know you mean well, but you've misbehaved, and if you continue to misbehave that can be used against you. Happens to all of us. You are not welcome here with opinions like this, simply because you consider yourself flawless, as far as I can see. I don't know how to communicate with flawless people. Never met a Pope, for example. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:47, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Importance vs. priority
No problems. The only thing I might indicate is that, so far as I know, the word "importance" was the first one used in the templates, and it was only later, reasonably, questioned as being perhaps prejudicial. Unfortunately, as someone who created a lot of those templates, I know that they were created before "priority" was suggested as a better alternative, and so far as I know there hasn't been a serious effort to change all the banners. So far as I remember, "importance' initially was just thought to mean "importance to a general encyclopedia," but I do realize it can not unreasonably be seen as being broader than that by some, and that priority is probably in some ways, particularly for BLP related topics, probably better. Telling living people they aren't "important" in their fields is I'm pretty sure not anything anyone was thinking of when the word was first used. John Carter (talk) 15:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
PS What can be done about this user, who I have seen practically revelling for years and years in judging huge hoards of life stories - about 20 a day - as unimportant though he's been asked to be more careful? I can no longer see good faith in h behavior. Looks more like a power trip to me. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:20, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Depending on the importance of the person to the subject of the project, I could not unreasonably see tagging a lot of people as being of maybe mid or low importance to, for instance, a national project, except in those cases where the person left a huge impression on the country. I know most people from the United States who have articles actually aren't all that "important" to the United States WikiProject, for instance. That isn't saying that they aren't "important" to perhaps a WikiProject on their profession or field of activity, but those are different scopes from any national or historical projects, whose primary topic is the country as a country. Probably the absolute "top" priority articles for any project are the main article on the topic itself and those child articles directly indicated with a "see more" or "see also" or similar hatnote. Having said that, if you believe that the assessments are uniformally lower than they should be, it would certainly be possible to take the editor to one of the dispute resolution or administrator noticeboards. Also, if there are any encyclopedic reference works relating specifically to the scope of the WikiProject in question, or, alternatively, if you indicate to me what that scope is, I can at least check to see if I can find any encyclopedic sources and start a page listing the articles in that source. Like I said before, I would tend to think that the, comparatively, few biographies specifically included in a national or regional or other topical WikiProject would reasonably be considered of "top" importance, in a lot of cases because of the amount of encyclopedic content related to them or their activities and the degree of impact of them on that topic. John Carter (talk) 20:37, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The first thing to check would be to see what specific parameters are enabled in a given project banner. If the project banner is formatted in such a way that only "importance," and not "priority," is a possible outcome of an assessment, then, honestly, there is nothing he can do to change that, because that is the way the banner is constructed. It might however be possible to get someone to work on the banner to replace the word "importance" with "priority," although that might only work in the template as it appears, if the categories the template places the material in automatically places them in that category. Depending on how many times the template has been transcluded, we could really tie up the servers badly and for some time if we changed that phrasing, and basically made the banner have to change each and every activated function simultaneously. But, in general, most banners don't support both "importance" and "priority" as phrasing, just one or the other. John Carter (talk) 22:33, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Template:WikiProject Sweden seems as per the documentation to only have the "importance" grading activated. It might be possible to get the template changed to use the priority parameters, but that would probably best be done by going to the template talk page adding {{TPER}} and requesting an edit to it and the reasoning for the request, because only admins and template editors can do that. And, from what I can see at Template:WPBannerMeta, the word "importance" still seems to be the more commonly used variation here, and I think it might be the case that if the terms get changed the projects "importance scale" categories at Category:Sweden articles by importance might all have to be changed or replaced as well. John Carter (talk) 17:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As you certainly have come to understand, I very strongly believe in our guideline and would like to see it followed by everyone, i.e. that "Priority" be used, not "Importance" when assessing biographies, or at least that everbody stop arbitrarily assessing any biographies with "Importance: Low". Do you think there is any way to work realistically toward such an improvement? If you do, I would be willing to learn how and devote some time and effort. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:33, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
When I changed my name from Warlordjohncarter to John Carter, I evidently completely tied up the server for about 10 minutes for the roughly 100,000 changes that arose from that. Given the number of projects which use the older, and I agree less positive, "importance" rating, I would have to think that making such changes to any banner, particularly the Meta banner, would tie up the servers even longer. I agree with the guide, but honestly, that information was added to it so far as I can tell rather significantly after most banners had been created with the "importance" language. The easiest thing to do, I think, would be maybe propose at the meta template talk page that assessment categories on talk pages be made hidden categories, which might be beneficial overall actually, as it decreases the somewhat bizarre fact of talk pages being "categorized" in so many ways, and maybe propose that the word "importance" be substituted with the word "priority" in the appearance of the standard iteration of that template. Both of those would probably be the easiest ways to get something done. John Carter (talk) 18:42, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
From what I've seen, I am not sure he has been "ignoring the guideline". It seems more likely that he has been doing assessments in good faith and just found that the template he has available to work with is, basically, not equipped to do priority assessment as opposed to importance assessment. If that is the case, I don't think that there would be any really likely chance of a positive outcome of asking him to refrain from assessment, which would probably be the only way for him to stop somewhat inadvertently assessing them for "importance". I don't think there would be any real benefit for basically criticizing him for using the template he has available to use. It would probably be more useful to go to the relevant WikiProject talk page, I'm guessing in this case WikiProject Sweden, and maybe asking there about changing the word "importance" to "priority" in the template appearance. I don't myself know what all would be involved in doing that, but it would probably be more useful than basically blaming someone for doing assessments in good faith the only way the template available is designed to do them. John Carter (talk) 13:20, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So do you feel it is a duty of a Wikipedian to assess hundreds of biographies as "Importance: Low"? A duty that would be shirked if h/s abstained from doing so, while there are objections raised and this is being discussed? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 08:05, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You have been asked to stop using "Importance" when assessing biographies while that is being discussed as inappropriate in favor of our guideline's recommenadtion to use "Priroty" instead. Your continued headstrong edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted or removed. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Administrators have the ability to block users from editing if they repeatedly engage in vandalism. You're not welcome. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:18, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Serge, wrote this on the GG talk p. but can't figure out what's on that p. Sometimes, with my computer, lots shows up, sometimes nothing. Here's what I wrote: I undid your edit for the reasons I stated in the edit p. I've read virtually every book about GG in print and what I learned is that no one knew for certain what her sexuality was. Friends, acquaintances, and biographers alike. When I wrote this section, I tried to convey this ambiguity as best I could. The gist of my comments is that nothing is certain. I suppose we could say that specifically but it seems embedded in the text. To delete "lesbian" would ignore what so many have said and written. I hope this clarifies. If not, please read the citations. Take care,--Classicfilmbuff (talk) 17:16, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
I saw an edit summary that claimed she had been "identified" as lesbian. Don't know if that was yours or not, and am not interested enough in her sex life to investigate. Whichever, that went too far. I met her once, maybe I should have asked her for ya? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:30, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Of course you should have asked her! What's the matter with you? what did you talk about? I'm ok with "a few" but actually it was more than a few. It was pretty much everyone. Otherwise, good prose tweaks. As you have said, cheers,--Classicfilmbuff (talk) 19:39, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever is on my user page is what's available about me personally. I talked to Greta Garbo at a social occasion at a mutual friend's for about 3 minutes in 1982 in California, and I'm so sorry, what she did or wanted to do with her genitals didn't come up. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:55, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Serge, didn't know the subject was being discussed on the talk p. Will move to it now. btw, it was you who made the drastic changes! I simply returned the well-cited information that you changed. Take care,--71.74.28.140 (talk) 23:46, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Disambiguation link notification for January 26
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Wash drawing by Pehr Hilleström in a 1792 letter showing Carl Michael Bellman in Gustavian dress with Movitz playing bowls. Based on Fredman's Epistle 55 "Movitz Playing Bowls at Faggen's Tavern by Hammarby barrier, a summer evening in 1773"<ref>Britten Austin, 1967. facing page 72</ref>
Hi, I see you reverted the link to Bellman in the Swedish national dress introduced by King Carl Gustav III. Is there a different national dress of Sweden for men also introduced by the king? The original words in the book are "Bellman, wearing the Gustavian dress, is in the centre...", as cited. Clearly the image at the top of Bellman playing his cittern is in a different dress altogether. But Britten Austin is an impeccable source. Perhaps we should include the image and citation in the article, rather than simply having a see also. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:07, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Britten Austin, Paul. The Life and Songs of Carl Michael Bellman: Genius of the Swedish Rococo. Allhem, Malmö American-Scandinavian Foundation, New York, 1967. ISBN978-3-932759-00-0
I am very familiar with that outfit, having seen originals up close in museums and theatrical wardrobes, and even having worn a specimen once, and no matter what the caption says, there is nothing in that painting that shows any detail which specifically pertains to the outfit. Bellman is wearing a shirt and a vest, that's all we really can see. The shirt has lace cuffs and jabot similar to those used with the National Costume, and the vest may or may not be a NC vest, but it is not at all evident. That's the problem. Here it looks more like Bellman is wearing the NC, but even there it isn't clear enough. I don't reallly see any special connection bewteen Bellman and the outfit anyway. I'll add another image which I think is more relevant and interesting. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:30, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Having seen the other drawing you added here, I might suggest that "Gustavian dress" means clothing of the Gustavian era, but not necessarily the specific National Costume that that article is about. To my knowledge, neither in Swedish nor English has it ever been known as Gustavian dress. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:34, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Carl Michael Bellman, portrayed by Per Krafft 1779. Bellman is wearing the Swedish dress, in shirtsleeves.
Hm. I've found another passage which I was looking for in the same book. Curiously, Britten Austin actually asserts that the Per Krafft image at the top of the Bellman article is indeed the national dress: "... on Krafft's canvas. Bellman is wearing the new Gustavian court uniform. That year [1779] Gustaf III, always deeply preoccupied with dress and ceremony, had realised a private dream. He designed for his loyal subjects a costume which was to distinguish them from other Europeans. Made of Swedish cloth, and restricted to two colours only, the "Swedish dress" consisted of a coat, open in front, and a waistcoat, with a broad fringed sash. Most striking of all was a long cloak, allegedly designed by Gustaf in order to hide his own asymmetry. Bellman, the loyal Gustavian, seems to have worn the costume by preference. He is seen wearing it, in his shirtsleeves, in his portrait."<ref>Britten Austin, 1967. page 119</ref>
So there is a definite Bellman connection to the dress - both preference (he generally wore it, unlike other people) and loyalty to the king. Presumably he and Per Krafft chose to show the dress in the portrait which the king had "caused to be painted" (page 118). I suggest therefore that Britten Austin is also correct about the Movitz-playing-bowls image (and by Gustavian he clearly means the Swedish dress introduced by the king), but certainly (beyond the fact it is a formal dress of the period) it is hard to make out many details. The description I've just located and quoted does seem to be of some interest, however. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:51, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"... always deeply preoccupied with dress and ceremony [ridicule and hogwash], had realised a private dream [soap opera fantasy]. He designed for his loyal subjects ["loyal" slanted & irrelevant] a costume which was to distinguish them from other Europeans [false statement showing lack of knowledge and contradictory to the article's text]. ... a long cloak, allegedly[by whom?][opposition slander] designed by Gustaf in order to hide[according to whom?] his own asymmetry [fantasy ridicule]. Bellman, the loyal Gustavian, seems to have worn the costume by preference [conjecture not worth noting]."
I would be even more opposed to adding "[such nonsense]" to the article after having read that highly opinionated, subject-ignorant harang. Paul Britten Austin should have been ashamed of himself, if he tried to pass such personal speculation and nonsense off on us as a reliable writer of real world history.
The Bellman images are irrelevant to the costume article because they do not show the reader the details of said costume. If you still wish to persist, let's move this to the article's talk page and have it out there! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:14, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
King Carl Gustaf still holds the title Duke of Jämtland. See his info page, it says "Carl Gustaf Folke Hubertus, King of Sweden, Duke of Jämtland, became Sweden's Head of State on 15 September 1973 at the age of 27, succeeding his grandfather, King Gustaf VI Adolf. "
He once gave a speech
"Forty years ago, I visited Jämtland as part of my tour of Sweden. Every time I come here, it feels a bit like coming home. And there are a number of good reasons for this. One reason is that I was born Duke of Jämtland, and I will therefore always have a special connection to this province."
He considers himself to be born the Duke of Jämtland not created. If Silvia had married him before he became king, she would have been known as Duchess.--Hipposcrashed (talk) 20:26, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Your interpretation is not correct, I'm afraid, and if you read those passages again carefully, I think you'll agree that you are putting meaning into them that is not there. When C16G "became Sweden's Head of State" the ducal title went defunct, and when he says he was born Duke, he means just that: born Duke, not Duke today. He has never said "jag är hertig av Jämtland" as King (which he obviously would have there), because he no longer is. Of course he has a special connection to the province - why on earth wouldn't he? - but as you'll find out if you phone Stockholm Palace tomorrow (they are glad to help) he is no longer considered a duke.
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Hi Serge ! I better not disturb mr "know everything best himself" at his page. Doubt if he has any humor at all. But You certainly do, very good last comment ! Cheers ! Boeing720 (talk) 20:22, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! I hope to cooperate with you again in the interest of phonetic empathy on English Wikipedia. It's very important to me that it's as easy as possible for all of us to orally read any article to children and to the blind without having to study any other languages in depth. It has been my experience for many many years, unfortunately, that Swedes generally are much more interested in pushing their own language's words and phonetics into the English language than in being considerate not to do so, when a text just as well could do without that spice (e.g. impediment to any non-Swedish reader of English). In the Stockholm subway, for example, all summer a few years ago, "next stop [+ station name]" was done in Swedish (of course) and then also in "English", i.e. "next stop" in this language, followed by long place names pronounced casually in Swedish, which nobody possibly could understand without knowing Swedish! In effect "Next stop: Hxmejkfvnroiwrghncqöikdj" is what one heard, station after station. A British mother with 3 small children (they may have already been lost) got so frantic she almost fainted, a Canadian man who was reading a book wondered why they caught his attention by saying "next stop" in English only to go on with some "unintelligible gobbledegook", an intelligent Swedish gentleman proclaimed how embarrassed he was and apologized to people, another said it was the "stupidest thing he ever heard anywhere in the world", while about 70% of all the other Swedes (I surveyed them) were quite proud that the subway company was helping people (!) by doing the announcements in "English". So sad, such things. Sincerely yours, --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:21, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I presume You are talking about speakers in the subway cars (?) I can surelly understand that the announcing of stations first in Swedish and then in English doesn't make much sence for people who only speak English. Infact the Swedish word for "next", "nästa" must be easier to understand than the names of the stations, so there is infact no point in it from any perspective. It's rather typical for Stockholm, and I doubt it's about helping tourists at all. I sooner would guess it's some kind of "wanna be an international centre". In my humble opinion, far too many Stockholmers actually believe their city is of tremendous international importance. And many do the difference between "the city" ("THE city") and the country side. Where also Gothenburg is included in the country side! Sweden is from many aspects a very centralized country. And given the long north to south extension, it oftenly becomes annoying. "Tomorrow it will be a sunny day", the television weather man states - which only means the sun is expected to shine in the Stockholm region. Back in 1978 there was a large demonstration in my small Scanian hometown Landskrona. 17.000 demonstrated against the closing of the shipyard with 3500 employees. I didn't really participate but assumed "this must come on the TV news". But the only demonstration mentioned was a few hundered that protested (against something; there were lots of demonstrations in those days) in Stockholm. The only conclution I possibly could make, was "TV thinks 300 Stockholmers are more important than 17.000 of us". I was 14 years old at the time. Further, their slogan - "Capital of Scandinavia" is an offense toward both Oslo and especially Copenhagen. I will have a good look at Scanian talk-page. Cheers! Boeing720 (talk) 03:21, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
History of SKÅNE
Hello ! I've began to change "Skåne" into "Scania" at History of Skåne, I don't know how to change the un-English title though. Perhaps You could help me, I think it is established that within English language is "Scania" more frequently used Boeing720 (talk) 21:33, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Howdy, it would appear that you removed a reference. for an award to Princess Christina. The last sentence on that page is, "Those who have been awarded the medal in recent years include Professor Sture Linnér, Princess Christina, Secretary General Markku Niskala and Rear Admiral Sten Swedlund." I am not sure what you mean by your edit summary of the source not mentioning her. I would appreciate it if you would revert yourself on that. Thanks. EricSerge (talk) 23:59, 16 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hello SergeWoodzing. I am happy for your support on the talk-page on Danish pastry. I felt a bit lonely, when those administrators ganged up. I never participated in the "What defines Danish pastry" quarrel, as I suspected - and later discovered -, that it was nothing but a prank. It was an invented argument, an artificial controversy, just made up for the sake of arguing. A waste of time. And I could only imagine their big smiles and laughs, whenever I would write anything on the talk-page about the matter, cause it was nothing but a prank to them. It is stuff like that, that tears and wears on ones joy and willingness to contribute to Wikipedia. Whatever you do, you will just be ridiculed and run over by meaningless - perhaps insulting - edits and it has no end, except when you choose to quit yourself.
What I found most disturbing about the whole incident, was how my (and other users) comments was deleted on the talk-page! Multiple times. Some was edited even. It is just so wrong. I was even asked if I would delete the whole section on "A prank". Crazy. And then of course all the "ganging up". It has been most revealing. I think all this should go in the ANI reporting, but no wonder the administrator closed it so sudden. He was already biased and angry with me specifically right from the start, because of the whole "Wikipedia terrorism" thing. And some other administrators as well. I am glad we got some of it all exposed here. How can anyone take them seriously after this? It is not easy.
I feel sad about the whole thing, but as things unfolded and users behaved, it is difficult to imagine any other outcome. Some people like a good feud, for the feud's own sake. And with friends in high-places, they can get away with it. Even here on wikipedia. How sad. Let us make sure now, that they don't turn all the blame on us, this will surely be their next move. I guess they are all having loads of fun with it too. RhinoMind (talk) 21:56, 17 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Buns and buildings
Hello again , Serge. As the "bun" discussion is still closed, perhaps You can help me with this List of tallest buildings in Scandinavia, if You agree to my ideas of corse. User Gavleson wna't a list which includes towers like Kaknästornet, then I think all such buildings and bridge pylones must be included aswell. We could certainly have two lists, one for all buildings and another for buildings with floors and 24 hrs open (towers for flats, offices, hospitals and hotels). The telemasts and bridge pylons can only compete in the "over all" list. I believe Gavleson to be a very stubborn man, that simply want's it his way. Last point is the list of decided and under construction, may have a list. But having a list for proposed (by someones) would be far too long and becomes speculative, in my mind. I have some comments on stock on the Danish pastry stock. See You ! Boeing720 (talk) 04:41, 21 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Disambiguation link notification for March 3
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Anders Eljas, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Grammophone, Hyde Park and Broadway. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.
What on earth did you do this[39] for? You're an experienced editor and yet you go against WP:V, and during an ongoing discussion. You know there is no merit to these kind of claim without a source. Are you here to improve articles according to standard policies or to right great wrongs?
Though you could have written this in a much friendlier, or at least a more neutral tone (nothing else is actually allowed on this page), you are quite right, and I apologize. "Please don't make changes while a discussion is till going on!" would have been quite sufficient, without the consescending animosity. Sincere thanks anyway for bringing this to my attention! Better luck with tone next time. I'll be more careful. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:45, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We've had some fairly heated exchanges recently, including comments at ANI, so I became temporarily frustrated. I apologize, though. Let's both keep our focus on content.
Hi Serge, I wrote You a mail. But it didn't pass some spam-filer, I believe. Anyway what You ask wouldn't be a good idea. The mentioned is very aware of me and sw Wiki. Best I can do is a translation, if that's helpful. Try to mail me again, a new one. If You need a translation, just tell me. Never mind the other stuffBoeing720 (talk) 05:11, 13 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Put the question further
Personally can I not see any reason to why not Jacob Truedson Demitz could be added to Swedish Wikipedia. As I have told You I'm not wanted there - and nowadays tht's mutual. I have put Your question further , to two Swedish users. User:Gavleson , from mid-Sweden, Gävle perhaps, or the Stockholm region. And User:Reckless182, who I know rather well, and who resides in Malmö, Scania. I have mentioned that I attempt to help You. Since it wasn't a translation You requested, do I hope this will help You instead. Please note, if You refer to me at Swedish Wikipedia, You have of cource my permission, but it might be a drawback for Your cause. I presume Gavlesson and Reckless123 are OK , in the eyes of Swedish Wikipedia though. All the best, Serge Boeing720 (talk) 15:57, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As I've tried to e-mail you, I no longer contribute to Swedish WP. I saw your message to those two others and especially appreciated that you understand what I've asked for - only opinions. I have not asked for a Swedish article to be made, only opinions as to whether there appropriately should/could be one or not now, since the English article now seems to have developed into something more substantial in some ways. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:12, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose he qualifies, simply due to the fact that he was born in Sweden and has written a book on Swedish history -- which is included in some Swedish libraries -- and has worked with some notable people as an entertainer. I've got to say though, the English article is oddly detailed for a person that is frankly not that notable, and reads like it was written by the person himself, or someone close to him (which seems to be the case, looking at the main editor). That's not necessary a problem, but it could do with a clean-up, IMO. / Gavleson (talk) 14:08, 20 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reply! I accepted the assignment to monitor 3 watchlists for the Southerly Clubs a few years ago when Emil Eikner stopped editing. When I get an update for any of the articles I watch, from them or by seeing something on Commons or elsewhere, I do some work there, if I think it's warranted. This one was cleaned up rather well years ago and has been pretty stable since then. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:21, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I'm not active at all on the Swedish Wikipedia so I can't really tell you anything about their notability criteria. After a quick look at the article I'm inclided to agree with Gavleson that the article reads a lot like it was written by someone close to the subject at hand. In my opinion it looks like there is a lot of details that should be removed, since the notability is based on the fact that he has released a book? I personally cannot see why the article needs to be as long as it currently is. --Reckless182(talk)22:28, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I understand, some administrators and/or bio people who have never been involved with the subject person were involved in the clean up some years ago, which apparently mostly focused on adding reliable sources to just about everything in that text and taking things out thet weren't sourced. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:15, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I had not realized that apparently you have an axe to grind against including non-English words and phrases in articles. Your mini-essay strikes me as misguided in the extreme, since the purpose of an encyclopedia is to educate and provide information. Even if some information is of interest to only a subgroup of readers it still makes sense to include it. Your idea that exonyms are made by linguists is absurd, they of course are not. Linguists don't create words. Exonyms generally naturally from usage over times, and there is a general movement in English away from using exonyms in many contexts (i.e. Peking is no Beijing, and Bombay is Mumbai in general usage), a trend that it makes little sense to ignore in decisions about naming and inclusion. Your idea that readers are not interested in pronunciation is simply erroneous, since better pronunciation guidance and more recordings is a standard request from readers. If there is such a thing as phonetic empathy, I think perhaps it is you who should put it to use and realize that just because you personally dont like foreign languages polluting your articles that doesnt mean that everyone else shares that view - nor does the inclusion of it force you to engage with it.·maunus · snunɐɯ·19:16, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What is your agenda in writing to me here? I cannot for the life of me figure it out. My opinion is based on WP guidelines, and strongly supports the notion of reading WP articles aloud with ease to children, the blind and others. Yours is against both. Trying to change my mind, or just nagging me in general? I have no interest whaosoever in yoiur opinions here. If you want to discuss articles, do that, but stay away from this page, please! You are certainly no teacher of mine, so there's no need for you to try to act like one. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:10, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It surprises me that you are surprised that someone might read and respond to your programmatic statements on your user page. There is of course no actual backing in policy for any of your ideas, except in so far as they apply to article titles. Children and the blind are not the only audience of this encyclopedia, nor are they an audience who benefits by excluding information about pronunciation or foreign languages. I am not tryin to change your mind, just expressing my disagreement.·maunus · snunɐɯ·23:13, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you're going to ignore the guideline very clearly quoted at the top of that section on my user page, and dismiss facility in reading articles alond as totally insignificant, discussing this with you is useless. I've never once said foreign words should never be used, I've only suggested that alternatives should be used when it's appropriate to do so. That and that alone, obviously, is what I mean by phonetic empathy. So, again, I cannot for the life of me figure out what your agenda is on this page, unless it's just to try to pick a fight. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:21, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Steve Vigil
The ISBN that you restored in the article "Steve Vigil" produces two error messages:
"The given ISBN does not appear to be valid; check for errors copying from the original source." (when you click on the ISBN magic link)
"Checkwiki error #70: ISBN with wrong length" (in the Checkwiki error listings)
The book is definitely wrong because its ISBN-10 has 11 digits and its ISBN-13 has 14 digits...that extra "8" in both cases. I made a change to both articles for the La Dolce Vita citation. (I intentionally separate the "ISBN" from the bad number so the "magic link" to the "Book sources" page won't get created.) See if you approve. Knife-in-the-drawer (talk) 18:48, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
July 2015
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Debut. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.
I ask that you see my actions there as a desperate attempt to try to get other editors to cooperate in solving a problem where one of our guidelines is involved. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:03, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Disambiguation link notification for July 16
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Facial expression, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Thalia. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.
Feeling your oats, Andejons? I consider it very unlikely that your old buddy MRund, who has supported you so often before, suddenly just showed up on his own to support you there. That's my opinion and I have a right to it. The reason I've had such suspicions, in both cases, is because your supporters addressed the matter just like you did, ignoring the essential matter of caption wording, though that essential matter had been stressed by me before they got involved, then they proceded to ignore what I had written, just to agree with you. The first user I wondered about has cordially explained that that article was on h watchlist. On English WP, cordial explanations are a much better idea than threats. Stay off this page with any and all threats, please! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 03:39, 28 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I would guess that it's simply that the lives and careers of the participants are not as important to the contest beyond the simple fact of their participation, while things like Melodifestivalen, as one of the many national selections that each form integral part of how the ESC actually comes together, and an overall history like Sweden in the Eurovision Song Contest are more important to the WikiProject; even the related articles for those for each individual year present a higher level of value to the contest itself than how ABBA's career grew post-win. Biographies are probably better handled by other projects (like WP:BIOG itself) in terms of the article's accuracy and maintenance, while that work might be comparatively tangential to the scope of WP:ESC. —烏Γ(kaw), 22:19, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Basically what was said above. @KarasuGamma:, thank you for stepping in; but I am capable of responding to discussions of which I started and was waiting patiently for a reply from Serge. Wes Mouse✒22:36, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Is it a Swedish contest? Seems to me that the bios of the annual winners would be much more interesting to the general reader of English WP, when reading about the ESC, than studying Swedish angles and participation. Also seems much more important to create good articles about all those winners (each and every one), in that context, than to zero in on the national shows and participation on that angle. I still don't get it. sorry. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:58, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To put it more simplified. Wikipedia has projects, as you know, dedicated to topical genres. The importance can vary between different projects. Something could be of higher importance to one project, but lower importance to another. The importance level will never be the same for every project. Winning artists of Eurovision are not that important to WikiProject Eurovision, because of the simple fact they only won, and done nothing more for the contest other than winning. Therefore they are of a lower importance to Project Eurovision. However, as they are biographical articles, they will be of a higher importance to Project Biography, and as they may also be of a high importance to the respective country projects too. WikiProject Eurovision only concentrates on the contests, and not on the singers. That is why articles like Eurovision Song Contest 1974 will rank higher in importance than ABBA. But if you still not getting, then perhaps it is best to just drop it and move on, and live with the fact projects have different levels importance for different topics and articles. Feel free to read Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide/WikiProject for more details which may help you gain a better understanding. Wes Mouse✒12:05, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have understood your points of view, as you've explained them before, and I'm a generally knowledgeable person who does not need any of the stuff like the first 5 sentences you wrote now. (In other words I'm not a small child or an adult idiot.) I also understand your POV re: what is and is not important to Project Eurovision. Perhaps my statement "I don't get it" has been too vague. I do not agree with your POV about what should be important to Project Eurovision.
Wikipedians are much much much less important than major international song talents who win huge contests, or other famous international talents of all kinds, and none of us should act as if the opposite were true. Attitudes like that subject Wikipedia to ridicule and give the whole project a very bad name. I'm not saying you have that attitude, but I've seen too much of it over the years, and I really feel the problem is worth mentioning in this discussion. Since I still don't get it.
Nothing you have written here has changed my opinion about what should be important to Project Eurovision, and it looks like I'm going to stick with it, at least here on my own talk page, whether or not you keep repeating your opinions, and no matter how many more or less condescending admonitions you ad, such as "drop it and move on" or "feel free to read...". Why not just stop commenting here now? I wouldn't mind that at all. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:13, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have never implied that you are a small child or an adult idiot. So I am somewhat disheartened that you are making bad faith assumptions like that. As a Wikipedian, as are to assume good faith, even if we may think differently. I was merely trying to help simplify the understanding about how projects have a difference in opinion when it comes to determining their importance levels. A biography article is not as important to WikiProject Eurovision, as we only edit such articles during a contest participation; thereafter we do not edit them; hence why they are a lower importance. However, articles such as the main Eurovision Song Contest are of a higher importance because these are articles that have require updating annually. The link to the project council was there just as a provision of additional help, and not intended to imply that you are not of good knowledgeable standing. If you did not see it in that way, then that is of your personal view-point and one that is of no concern to myself. If you still feel the importance levels for Project Eurovision are flawed, then maybe raising the concern at WT:ESC is a good way forward, and then members of the project may share your same view-point, then again they may not; but an open discussion to reach a consensus on the issue is a logical step to consider. Wes Mouse✒15:37, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"As a Wikipedian, as are to assume good faith, even if we may think differently." "then members of the project may share your same view-point, then again they may not; [my bold - ugh!]" Masterfully quoting the obvious is considered condescending and rude in English. Turns me right off. So thank you! That's enough with the lessons by you for me now. I abstain from futher learning as instructed by you. Good faith also entails respecting another users' opinions. I respect yours. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:00, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@KarasuGamma: - though I don't agree with those opinions about winners' bios, thank you for your input. I apologize for the fact that you were treated rudely here on my talk page. Everyone who isn't condescending and rude is always welcome to comment here about anything, at any time. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:04, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Why have you taken two completely different contexts and merged them to give a new meaning, when that meaning was not even being implied by myself. Please do not twist contexts as that is more rude and condescending in itself. The context behind assuming good faith, is in response yo the fact you implied I had called you a small child/adult idiot - when I never even called you those words. As for the other sentence you quote of mine, all I was trying to say is if you still feel that Project Eurovision should review its importance scale, then raise the concern on the project talk page, so that project members can discuss the matter. Some may agree with you, some may not. But we will never know unless you put forward the discussion about it. If you want rude, I can certainly give you rudeness and in the most brutal manner known to man. Wes Mouse✒22:07, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the content of the post you linked to in your email was unacceptable. It happened in the context of something which started off as a perfectly constructive discussion (on both sides) but which unfortunately gradually degenerated into name-calling. The particular edit you mentioned took the incivility further than any of the previous edits, but things had been gradually heading that way, on both sides. I also see that the editor who made the post you mentioned has not posted to the page for more than a day and a half. I suggest that, as long as there is no continuation, the best thing to do is to leave it and move on to other things. If, however, there is any more continuation of the problem, please feel welcome to let me know, because in that case there is likely to be need for action to stop the problem. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 11:44, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you!
I'd like you to know, and please try to remember, that I neverhead that way. Have never done, and never will. Every now and then I have told another user to stop being condescending, sarcastic and/or rude, especially when they come to my own talk page to argue. That is absolutely not heading that way, as you apparently meant it (that I would ever consider making threats like that). Will you please, kindly, try to remember that? I would be very grateful.
It seems only perfect angels, who tolerate any and every kind of behavior from other users and never complain, are able to get any help when a dispute spills obverboard into serious personal attacks and/or disturbing threats like that. Would you agree? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:55, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I wasn't intending to suggest that you had made a threat of the same kind as the one you mentioned to me, I was just saying that the threat was the culmination of increasing combativeness and incivility on both sides. That doesn't men that the threat was acceptable, nor does it mean that you were to blame for it, but I do think that the background of increasingly unfriendly comments on both sides has to be taken into account when assessing the particular edit you pointed out. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 14:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In all these years, I have never once been helped against another user who has been first in a discussion to be rude, sarcastic, condescending and even threatening. Never once! So, with respect, I repeat my question, sir: it seems only perfect angels, who tolerate any and every kind of behavior from other users and never complain, are able to get any help when a dispute spills obverboard into serious personal attacks and/or disturbing threats like that. Would you agree? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:50, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In other words, I seem to have learned 2 things by now:
It does not pay off never to start trouble oneself, because nobody cares who started the trouble or went way too far, no matter how obvious it is, when 2 users are having a nasty fight.
Custom is to always find fault with whomever complains, and at best always blame both users, never to address a complaint fairly - even when one of the arguing users writes something as extremely uncivil and personally disturbing as "I can certainly give you rudeness and in the most brutal manner known to man", that user gets away with it 100%, and thus is free to do that again at any time, to anyone.
Hi SergeWoodzing, the relevant Manual of Style for linking section headers is here. Section headers aren't linked and there isn't really a need to link a header when the relevant link is already included in the section itself, as is the case here. Acalamari22:05, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Wild Side Story, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Debut. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.
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The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/World Championships of Performing Arts until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. GoingBatty (talk) 03:16, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
avoid editing or creating articles related to you, your organization, its competitors, or projects and products you or they are involved with;
instead, propose changes on the talk pages of affected articles (see the {{request edit}} template);
avoid linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization in other articles (see WP:SPAM);
exercise great caution so that you do not violate Wikipedia's content policies.
In addition, the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of userequire disclosure of your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation.
You do not legitimately represent any "We" that I know of. I've been on Wikipedia for many years and have made over 29,000 edits on 9 projects, created over 600 articles on English WP. Have no idea why you would want to post this here as if you needed to teach me something. Let's discuss reasonably at Talk:Chairman! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 05:12, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Go away and stay away from here, please! You misused the template, ergo you do not legitimately represent Wikipedia or any other any "We" in doing that. Because of your condescending, presumptuous and provocative behavior here, you are not welcome on this talk page. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:32, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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