This is an archive of past discussions with User:Noraft. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
For those having problems with the page size script
In order to help you, I need some information. Saying "I followed all the instructions" isn't enough, as sometimes people THINK they've followed them all, when they actually have not. So please answer the following questions when requesting help:
1) What skin are you using? The default skin is now vector.js Go to "Preferences" then "Appearance" and see which skin you have selected. Putting the page size script in monobook.js isn't going to help you if you're using vector.js
2) Be sure you've cleared your cache, and tell me that you have. If you skip telling me you've cleared your cache, I will assume you have not.
3) Please provide a link to your .js page, so I can look at it. For example, I use the modern skin. My scripts are at User:Noraft/modern.js.
With that information I can attempt to diagnose the problem. Post any issues you have in the form provided below. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!04:48, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
Problems with script
Your Username
Link: (to your .js page)
Describe how you cleared your cache.
Anything else you'd like to say.
New copy editor
Hi Noraft! I saw your advertisement for the copy edit drive on my adopter's page, User_talk:PrincessofLlyr :) I thought I'd have a go at it. Would you mind reviewing my first copyedit, Asymmetric multiprocessing? I would really appreciate any feedback you might have. Thanks for organizing a worthy effort!-- φ OnePt618Talk φ 06:31, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd say that you write very clearly, and did a good job of making the text much more readable. I don't have any critical things to say. Good work! ɳorɑfʈ Talk!07:42, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
Not such a question, but...
I don't really understand what I'm supposed to do after copyediting an article during the backlog elimination drive, so if you don't mind I think I might just use this event to just generally continue copyediting articles. Hope this is OK. Chevymontecarlo12:08, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
People post a tally of the articles they've copyedited. That's how we award the barnstars. If you need some more detailed help setting up your tally, let me know and I'd be happy to walk you through it. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!15:08, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Backlog elimination drives/July 2010
Hi Noraft - I tried to to import the script on my monobook.js but think I didn't do something right. The directions say that subsequently, when I go to a random page, if yI look under the Toolbox menu on the far left of the screen there will be a link for Page size. There isn't. Help? Thanks. --Rosiestep (talk) 01:42, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi! I'm happy to help. Okay, so I took a look at User:Rosiestep/monobook.js and I noticed that the text is all green. That means the program isn't reading it right. I wonder if that's because the prior script is affecting it. I notice that your other scripts that come before that last one all seem to work fine. There's even one from the same user that created the Page Size script. I'd try moving the script up to where your others are. If that doesn't work, please write me again. We'll get it figured out together. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!01:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi again. I moved it up but it still doesn't work. I'm open to any other suggestions... you can tell I'm not a techie. --Rosiestep (talk) 20:00, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Well, I can see from looking at it that it is being read correctly now. Did you clear your cache after you installed it? ɳorɑfʈ Talk!00:20, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I'm having the same problem with activating the link for page size. I have followed the instructions, but the link has not appeared when I have visited different articles. I'd really appreciate some help - thanks! David Rush (talk) 23:52, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
It's still not working on my end, and I don't know what to do next. I'm sorry for asking again. Thank you.--Rosiestep (talk) 03:05, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
I know I'm not being addressed here, but I think I can help you out, Rosiestep. It may be because Wikipedia's been through some changes since the May drive, so if you haven't done so I'd like you to try switching out of the new changes and going back to the old. There should a link to deactivate the new features right by your user name at the top of the window. Click it and deactivate the new features. After that, try implementing the script again. Be sure to refresh the cache. That's how I run the script. Good luck. The UtahraptorTalk21:31, 2 July 2010 (UTC)PS if you've already switched back to the old features, let me know and I'll give you a new set of instructions.
Backlog chart
Hi
I just updated the chart the noticed you did it a couple of mins before I did it. I was doing some redlinks I missed at the bottom of the page I was copyediting - I never want to see an article that big again lol- small ones for me for a cpl days :¬)
What is the UTC time that you normally do that - 01:00 or thereabouts ?
Midnight UTC is 8am for me (in Manila), so I do it whenever I get to the office, which is usually around 1am UTC, but sometimes not until 3 or 4am. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!01:33, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Sorry to bring this one up and I realise there may be fault from my part, but can you clarify whether it is necessary to claim the article being edited on the Drive lists or by merely placing a GOCE tag on the article page.
I thought that the policy was to claim the article on the Drive page and after that one had to start editing immediately.
If it is not the case and simply placing a GOCE tag is sufficient, I cannot see any need for the "working" note being placed on the Drive lists.
I am a little confused and bewildered by the events after losing an hours editing. I understand from the list that this article is the editors first large one and am hoping the matter can help clarify how the "claim" is to be made.
thanks Chaosdruid (talk) 21:32, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
PS Also looking at the diffs I believe my edits to have been better in some respects and would like to reinstate them without causing offence to the other editor.
I Have a Quesetion Concerning the July 2010 Backlog Elimination Drive
I recently copy edited an article for this contest, and the article is about a band. After I finished my cleaning up and wrote it in on my credit area, I decided that the article had notability problems, enough for me to very likely put it up for deletion. What happens when there is a predicament like that? If I put the article up for deletion, is my credit still valid or will the credit have to be reverted if the page does gets deleted? By the way, the page in question is Kitrina Podilata. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds.03:52, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
You get credit for clearing the {{copyedit}} tag. So it doesn't matter if the article is later deleted. You still removed the tag, which means you still reduced the size of the backlog. Cheers! ɳorɑfʈ Talk!05:30, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't normally give out barnstars and don't plan to change that, so I thought I'd drop you a note to say that I was very impressed with your response to the user inquiring about adminship over on the RfA talk page. That displayed a great deal of thoughtfulness and a desire to help. Also, you've done terrific work with the GOCE backlog elimination drives. I have yet to participate, but I may sometime if there are any articles left. Thank you for making WP a better place! PrincessofLlyrroyal court02:46, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi! This message is just a friendly reminder that you signed up to participate in the GOCE Backlog Elimination Drive. I noticed that you haven't logged a single copy edit yet. We'd love to see you participate! The drive runs three more weeks so there's still plenty of time to earn barnstars. Thanks! --DiannaaTALK21:39, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi Noraft,
I am pretty sure that Mono wins the barnstar for most referrals (12) according to the tally posted here. I have verified the users have signed up. Thanks. --DiannaaTALK14:56, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
Just a reminder, as Mono confirms he got 13 to sign up. Do you have that barnstar in your desk drawer somewhere? Thanks. --Diannaa(Talk)01:54, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I've posted St. Michael's Cathedral, Qingdao at the requests page, here. It's usually a good idea to keep track of the nomination in case editors have any questions or concerns about the article. One thing that should be addressed is that the blurb is a little long; Raul usually likes them to be 1200 characters or less. Cheers, Dabomb87 (talk) 21:03, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
I have made a correction to the way you posted the articles on the drive page. Do you want the articles themselves checked as well, or just the way you posted them? Thanks for helping out by the way. --Diannaa(Talk)01:58, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Discussion at AN/I – editor 75.2.209.226 and socks
There’s an ongoing discussion at AN/I [1] about editor 75.2.209.226 AKA Techwriter2B AKA ....
The Techwriter2B account is under indefinite block (resulting from the AN/I discussion in June), but he’s continuing the same behavior under IP 64.252.0.159 and a new user account (Filmcracker). There’s discussion of a community ban. Thought you might be interested. Best Eurytemora (talk) 01:17, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
DYK for Shinan District
On July 18, 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Shinan District, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.
Hi, Noraft. A few of us have been getting the halfway-point newsletter ready for the backlog elimination drive. If you have time could you check it over and send it out to participants via AWB? If you are pressed for time and can't help, let me know and we will figure something out. Thanks. You can find the draft here. --Diannaa(Talk)16:18, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
I would like it to go out to everyone who signed up for the drive. I don't know if this can be done via AWB or not. --Diannaa(Talk)18:25, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
Oh, I'm sorry! I was unexpectedly called out of town for about 24 hours. I just got back. Yes, that can be done via AWB, so I apologize I wasn't there to make that happen. I'll give The Raptor a barnstar. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!10:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Please see the message I have posted here and review the links in it. We really need to take care of this issue once and for all. Centpacrr (talk) 19:40, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi! Looking at the recent successful GOCE copyedit backlog elimination drive, I believe we can all day it was successful. I've noticed that there is another severe backlog that, like the copyedit backlog, also significantly takes away from the quality of the article. I have been attempting to eliminate some of the backlog myself, but progress is slow. Since you have experience in organizing such events, would it be possible for us to organize another backlog elimination drive for articles with a promotional tone? There currently is no group of editors dedicated to cleaning up that backlog, so a new group would have to be organized. Please tell me if you are interested. Thanks. Netalarmtalk03:00, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
I've begun work, but I don't have a log section. Do I add my own? Also, what happens when I run into an article that is basically comprised of text that cannot really be salvaged? Enigmamsg18:01, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Yep, start your own. There are instructions to do so at the top of that section. In the case you mentioned, I'd ask another GOCE member for their opinion. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!11:17, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
One more thing. I installed the script but for some reason, ever since the layout of the site was changed, I can't get any of my special plugins to work. I full-refreshed, etc. Anyway, could you do it for this? Thanks, Enigmamsg15:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Greetings from the Guild of Copy EditorsJuly 2010 Backlog Elimination Drive. Thanks to all who participated in the drive! Over 100 editors—including Jimbo Wales—signed up this time (nearly triple the participants of the May drive). This benefited the Guild as well as the articles in need of copy editing. You can see from the comparison graphs that we increased the number of completed copyedits substantially. Unfortunately, we were not able to meet our goal of completely wiping out 2008 from the queue. We also were not able to reduce the backlog to less than 6,000 articles. We suspect people were busy with real life summertime things, at least in the northern hemisphere! We were able to remove the months of January, February, March, April, and May from the backlog, and we almost wiped out the month of June. We reduced the backlog by 1,289 articles (17%), so all in all it was a very successful drive, and we will be holding another event soon. We'll come up with some new ideas to try to keep things fresh and interesting. Keep up the good work, everybody!
Stats
If you copy edited at least 4,000 words, you qualify for a barnstar. If you edited in the May 2010 GOCE Backlog Elimination Drive, your word totals are cumulative for barnstars (not the leaderboard). Over the course of the next week or two, we will be handing out the barnstars.
GOCE backlog elimination drive chart up to 31 July
Eight people will receive The Most Excellent Order of the Caretaker's Barnstar (100,000+ words): Chaosdruid, Diannaa, Ericleb01, Lfstevens, Shimeru, S Masters, The Utahraptor, and Torchiest.
Bullock and Slon02 will receive The Order of the Superior Scribe (80,000+).
The Barnstar of Diligence (60,000+) goes to Derild4921, GaryColemanFan, kojozone, and Mlpearc.
The Modern Guild of Copy Editors Barnstar (40,000+) goes to A. Parrot, AirplanePro, Auntieruth55, Bejinhan, David Rush, and mono.
Nobody will receive The Old School League of Copy Editors award (30,000+).
The Tireless Contributor Barnstar (20,000+) goes to Backtable, Cindamuse, dtgriffith, Duff, e. ripley, Laurinavicius, NerdyScienceDude, and TEK.
The Cleanup Barnstar (12,000+) goes to Brickie, Casliber, cymru lass, December21st2012Freak, Nolelover, TheTito, Whoosit, and YellowMonkey.
The Working Man's Barnstar (8,000+) goes to Bsherr, Duchess of Bathwick, HELLKNOWZ, Mabeenot, noraft, Pyfan, and Richard asr.
The Modest Barnstar (4,000+) goes to Adrian J. Hunter, Airplaneman, Annalise, Camerafiend, Cricket02, Fetchcomms, Gosox5555, LeonidasSpartan, Paulmnguyen, Piotrus, SuperHamster, Taelus, and TPW.
Hi, Noraft. There is quite a bit of interest in putting together a copy edit drive again in September. I was wondering if you would be interested in helping out again with the set-up etc? Please feel free to say no if you are not going to be very active on Wikipedia in the next while, as we have others who would be happy to help. Thanks. --Diannaa(Talk)03:38, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I can set up a November drive, no problem. I just moved back from overseas to the USA, so have been busy, but my schedule will be clearing up in the next two days. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!17:48, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
You said November but I said September. If you could clarify that would be great! We have already got a page going here. User:the Utahraptor is interested in helping out so he can have my spot on the committee as I will be gone from September 5 to 13. --Diannaa(Talk)18:04, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Did this person participate in the last drive? Right now we've got me, you, and two other co-coordinators. Do we need more cooks in the kitchen? Hey, actually, I have an idea. An area that was severely lacking was oversight. Nobody was spot-checking copyedits. Why don't we make this person the spot-check czar? ɳorɑfʈ Talk!01:04, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi, we need to close the discussions on the GOCE drive soon and make our final decisions on the mechanics of the drive. In particular, we need to decide on the rollover rules. I have also noticed that the lifetime totals have already been implemented. This might be problematic for us in calculating any rollover credits as this number lumps together the totals of all drives. We need to send the newsletter out by 14 or 15 August (roughly 2 weeks before the next drive starts). Would appreciate your comments and votes (either way), as I want to close off all current discussions and archive them before we start inviting 300+ editors to participate. Cheers. - S Masters (talk) 01:15, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Newsletters
Hi, thanks for the update, but could you please consider sending the newsletters as collapsible templates like, in the way that most other projects do? (I have made the suggestion before). Thanks.--Kudpung (talk) 00:43, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
I didn't send out any newsletter. I suggest you direct this to whomever sent you the newsletter, as they are either the user who did the layout, or know that user. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!05:44, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
I must admit I was somewhat confused to find myself declared a "huge advocate" of AOR ;). In any event, I've now answered your RfA questions. Cheers, Nikkimaria (talk) 17:13, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Our friend from CT is back and causing more trouble
Thanks for your support in my RfA, which was closed as successful. Thanks also for your questions - the second one in particular was actually fun to answer! Cheers, Nikkimaria (talk) 15:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
I've tried installing this 5+ times and am at a complete loss. No link to the tool is appearing in my toolbox. --Danger (talk) 21:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
Thank you very much for signing up for the Guild of Copy Editors' September Backlog Elimination Drive! The copyedit backlog stretches back two years, to the summer of 2008! We're going to need all the help we can muster to reduce the backlog to a manageable size. We've set a goal of clearing all of 2008 from the backlog, and getting the total under 5000. To do that, we're going to need more participants. Please invite anyone you can to join the drive! Once again, thanks for your support! If you have any questions, contact one of our coordinators—ɳorɑfʈ Talk!, The RaptorYou rang?, or SMasters (Talk).
I am retiring because I have a lot to work on in real life. Due to this I must also resign from my position as co-coordinator. I understand if you're frustrated; we've already had one user leave. But I just want to let you know, retiring from Wikipedia is one of the hardest decisions I have ever made. I've been thinking about retiring since the beginning of this month, in fact. I might return next summer, but I might not. Until that date, goodbye. The RaptorYou rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions13:42, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Real life should always take precedence. Don't worry, we'll be fine here. I generally don't get frustrated over Wikipedia. Be well. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!03:56, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
I think I'm not getting it re: the word count script.......can you look at my page(s) to see if I did it right? I can't find the word count button when I look at random articles. thanks for any help you can offer. Buddpaul (talk) 18:58, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi Noraft - was your comment in BigDom's RfA meant to be in the Support section? Just wondering - the wording doesn't quite sound like an oppose. :) Connormah (talk) 03:05, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
BigDom RfA
Your comment in the RfA indicated support for the candidate but you listed your comment in the "oppose" column - it is currently oppose no. 3 there. Was that a mistake? Nsk92 (talk) 03:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi there! I'm not sure where to ask this question, so I thought I would ask you personally since you seem to be the main coordinator of the drive. I would like to know to how to calculate the number of words edited for a particular article: Turkmen in Syria. I would like to merge this article with Syrian Turkmen (as they already have merge proposals on them), but I'm not sure how that works with noting number of words edited. Any advice you can offer would be appreciated. Thanks! --Tea with toast (talk) 14:57, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
You do the wordcount before copyediting. Merges aren't part of the scope of the drive. If you like, you can copyedit both articles, and use the wordcount of both summed. If you get called on this, refer whomever is raising a concern to this talk page. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!01:22, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Does the presence of means it was not done properly or that it passed? The section at the bottom of the page doesn't make sense in this regard; it mentions a consensus and having to redo stuff but not whether the template means there is something wrong or not or whether the consensus is a recheck after a request for a second try. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:03, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Greetings from the Guild of Copy Editors Backlog Elimination Drive!GOCE September 2010 backlog elimination drive progress graphs
Participation report — We have 71 participants in the September drive. 95 people signed up for the July drive, and in May we had 36.
Progress report — We have been making solid progress in eliminating the 2008 articles from the backlog so far. If we continue to focus our firepower we can completely wipe out 2008 from the queue. Overall volumes are lower than expected though, with nearly a thousand articles yet to be done if we are to meet our overall target. If you have not yet participated in the drive, we recommend you do so. If each person who signed up edits one article per day from now till the end of the month we can eliminate another 1,065 articles from the backlog. All contributions are appreciated.
Announcement: credit for 10k+ articles — Participants editing a 10k word article may claim credit for two 5k+ articles on the leaderboard. Those that edit a 15k word article may claim credit for three. Regardless, the article is still counted as a single article in the tallies.
Reminder — Articles from the Requests page can be included in your tally, even if they do not have a copy edit tag. This is a great place to go if you are interested in finding a higher quality article to work on.
I am doing a research about virtual communities for my doctorate. I would like to study how the members define norms for the community.
I would appreciate your contribution for my research. If I agree to participate, I will send you the questions. Jmbbmj (talk) 16:33, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I'd be happy to help. I have a research background myself. If you could shoot me an email (look for the "email this user" link under "Toolbox" in the left-hand column), letting me know your name, institutional affiliation/program, and how you selected me as a respondent, I'd be glad to participate. Thanks! ɳorɑfʈ Talk!16:45, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
GOCEreviewed template
Hi Noraft - I am working on a sandbox "upgrade" to the GOCEreviewed template because I would like it to express the user and date of the review similar to the GOCE template. Please refer to the discussion at the project talk page. I would very much appreciate your input as a prominent copyeditor :) -Paulmnguyen (talk) 00:22, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi, Noraft, hope all is well with you! I finally downloaded Huggle like you suggested way back in June. What fun! I love it. I have a dumb question, though. How do I get the log-on screen to appear? the programme does not show in my list of programmes installed on my computer. Do I just go to the Wikipedia:Huggle/Download page and download it again every time I want to use it? Thanks. --Diannaa(Talk)19:26, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
It is self-contained in a single file. I just keep the file on my desktop. Then double click and you're good to go. If you need more help, let me know, and I'd be happy to assist. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!20:16, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
Noraft, The reason I deleted that "legacy" sentence in particular is because it did not serve as a topic sentence for the section or the paragraph in the way that the next sentence does. It is indeed a sentence about Beiderbecke's legacy, but it feels added on to me. — Margo&Gladys — continues after insertion below
Considering that the information contained in that sentence is valid, the sentence is in the proper section of the article, and it is properly referenced, citing a good source, I think moving the sentence to a better location is a preferred way to handle your objection than deleting it out of hand. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!23:11, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Sentences you added elsewhere in the entry felt the same way; some of them were even out of place in terms of the time line of the material; at least one introduced a grammatical error; and in one case you referred to Beiderbecke's brother as Charles when the entry consistently refers to him as Burnie. — Margo&Gladys — continues after insertion below
As you know, Wikipedia is a collaborative project. If someone adds information that could be improved upon, please improve upon it. I did the legwork to look the information up and add it. If you think there's a better way to integrate it, please feel free to do so. Specifically, put it where it belongs in the timeline, fix the grammatical error, and change the name from Charles to Burnie. Or ask me to do it. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!23:11, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
It's not clear to me why this material needed to be added while the entry was being carefully reviewed for Feature Article -- doesn't that confuse the readers by creating new material to review? — Margo&Gladys — continues after insertion below
I don't think timing matters. The FA process is such that the delegates will not fail an article because someone added some information that needs to be better integrated. They'd hold it open until it was fixed. And new information is added to FACs all the time after reviewers have !voted. It is up to them to continue to monitor if it is important to them. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!23:11, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Regardless, my objections then become a problem, because if I understand it correctly an edit war would disqualify the whole thing. Anyway, I've made my objections clear here, and I hope you know they are made with all due respect. Thanks. Margo&Gladys (talk) 15:35, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
I found the article, as written before I added to it, to be cold/sterile. There was little injection of the man into the article. What kind of person he was. A lot of what I added was to give readers that dimension. He wasn't just expelled for "absenteeism," he got caught climbing a fire escape sneaking back in. That's WAY more interesting and shows another side of him. The fact that he played piano first wasn't mentioned at all. The reason I added the material was so that I wouldn't have to oppose the nomination as it was written, with vague criteria as to what I wanted to see. And I added 4 or 5 good, solid sources which make the article more authoritative.
I think that you're coming close to saying "The article looks good the way it is and we don't need additional details." Maybe not exactly, but you're in that neighborhood, maybe a couple streets over. And your objections were received with all due respect. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!23:11, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
I've edited the "Early Years" section of the Beiderbecke entry to reflect the following changes. I've done my best to defend those changes with explanations below. If you have concerns, please let me know. Thanks.
To discourage his interest in jazz,
[My concern here is that historians have begun to doubt this version of events. You cite Leonard Feather, who actually uses these exact words: "To discourage his interest in jazz, his family sent him to Lake Forest Academy …" But Feather did not know about Bix's arrest, an event that suggests, at the least, that his being sent away from Davenport was more complicated. Jean Pierre Lion puts it this way: "The reaction of Bix's father at the end of this disastrous year in school will remain unknown, and we have no information regarding his behavior during the April incident. He apparently decided that his son had to be sent away from Davenport and surprisingly, he left it to the women of the house to find a solution for his problem child" (p. 26). Lion, in other words, is suggesting that we don't know for sure why Bix was sent away other than it was his father's decision. I think that cutting the claim of why Bix was sent away (and not substituting a competing claim) makes the most sense.]
Generally, when sources disagree, a note is made that sources disagree. Something to the effect of "While historians have traditionally noted that his parents sent him to Lake Forest Academy to discourage his interest in jazz (Feather, p. ?) some historians have begun to doubt this version of events, believing that he may have been sent away in response to his arrest (Lion, p. 26)..." That's what I'd like you to do here, please. I'd do it, but if I do it, it may look like an edit war is beginning, so I'm giving you the chance to make the changes, since this article is going to pass very soon. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!15:40, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
… Beiderbecke's parents enrolled him in the exclusive Lake Forest Academy, north of Chicago in Lake Forest, Illinois. They felt that a boarding school would provide their son with both the necessary faculty attention and discipline to improve his academic performance. It didn't work. Within a week of his arrival at school in September, he wrote his brother to report that he had already managed to make it to the South Side and talk his way into three different black clubs on 35th Street in search of what he called "real jazz niggers." "Don't think I'm getting hard, Burnie," he wrote, "But I'd go to hell to hear a good band."
[My concern here is that you cite Geoffrey Ward and then quote him very nearly exactly, too nearly in my opinion. Ward writes on p. 83: "It didn't work. Within a week of his arrival at school in September, he was writing home to tell his brother that he had already managed to make it to the South Side and talk his way into three different black clubs on Thirty-fifth Street in eager search of what he called 'real jazz niggers.' 'Don't think I'm getting hard Burnie,' he wrote, 'but I'd go to hell to hear a good band.'" I have an additional concern about Ward as a source; he gets the facts of Bix's arrest wrong and even mistakes the age at which Bix dies. These sorts of errors call his expertise into question, although I realize that is a judgment call. (No source is perfect!) Beyond that, though, the insertion of information about Bix working his way into South Side clubs comes before the following sentences about "taking the train into Chicago to catch the hot jazz bands at clubs and speakeasies." In other words, the insertion makes what follows redundant.]
That's probably my favorite line in the entire article, as it shows his passion and excitement about hearing authentic jazz while he was still developing. If you think the unquoted material is too close to the source, then make it a better paraphrase. If it is redundant to the next line, let's drop that one. I think this one is better: it makes Bix roll and have life. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!15:40, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
I do think the unquoted material is too close to the source. It is very nearly exactly the same words setting up exactly the same quotation. I don't believe that's appropriate, and I don't believe it ought to be my responsibility to fix it. As such, I deleted it. Part of my concern here is motivated by the fact that during the GA review process, I was told that the article was too long and that I needed to trim, trim, trim. Interesting material could be added ad infinitum, but there comes a point where condensing is a good thing. Perhaps new articles can be written on Bix's early years or his playing style, etc. Margo&Gladys (talk) 17:06, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
I completely agree that it is not your responsibility to fix it. Like everything on Wikipedia, if an editor sees something out of place, they can address it or not. That's the beauty of volunteering. However, you've put this up for FA, which means that just slapping a {{close paraphrase}} tag on it will be detrimental to your interests... but anyway, thanks for going back and editing. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!17:36, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
… Not surprisingly, at Lake Forest Academy his grades did not improve, and his interests remained limited to music and sports. In pursuit of the former, Beiderbecke continued taking the train into Chicago to catch the hot jazz bands at clubs and speakeasies, including the infamous Friar's Inn, where he listened to and sometimes sat in with the New Orleans Rhythm Kings. He also played regularly with the Ten Foot Band.
[This may be true, but I'm not convinced it's important. The NORK were an important band; the Ten Foot Band are barely a footnote. Their mention doesn't add to any substantial understanding of Beiderbecke.]
… [add: On campus he] He helped organize a band on campus [add: the Cy-Bix Orchestra with drummer Walter "Cy" Welge] and almost immediately got into trouble with the headmaster for performing indecorously at a school dance. He had also already begun to develop the "spare cornet" style for which he would one day be remembered.
[This last sentence strikes me as useful information that is misplaced. The sentences preceding and following are primarily about misbehavior, not about his musical style.]
… Beiderbecke often failed to return to his dormitory before curfew, and sometimes stayed off-campus the next day. In the early morning hours of May 20, he was caught on the fire escape to his dormitory, attempting to climb back into his room. The faculty voted to expel him the next day, due both to his academic failings and his extracurricular activities, which included drinking. The headmaster informed Beiderbecke's parents by letter that following his expulsion school officials confirmed that Beiderbecke "was drinking himself and was responsible, in part at least, in having liquor brought into the School." Soon after, Beiderbecke began pursuing a career in music. While still at the academy, he formed the Cy-Bix Orchestra with drummer Walter "Cy" Welge.
[The information in this last sentence is out of chronological order. Presumably this is the band Beiderbecke helped organize on campus; it should be named above.]
I hope you'll forgive me if I've clogged up your talk page with this. In light of our disagreement above, my hope was just to be clear and fair with you about my revisions. Margo&Gladys (talk) 14:31, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Oh, no, no problem! My talk-page is auto-archived, and besides, I don't believe in the concept of "clogged" talk pages. I'm not too lazy to scroll. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!15:40, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Okay, its looking pretty good. Couple things, which I'll separate so you can respond:. First, I thought you were going to move mention of the Cy-Bix Orchestra as you wanted it in chronological order. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!17:36, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Second, this line: His grades did not improve, and his interests remained limited to music and sports. In pursuit of the former, Beiderbecke continued taking the train into Chicago to catch the hot jazz bands at clubs and speakeasies... bothers me a bit because of the use of the word "continued." It is my understanding that he did not start regularly going to the South Side until the proximity of his school provided him easier access. This version makes it look like first his grades were low, then he went to Chicago. My version, which mentioned that within a week of enrolling he was already in Chicago, shows clearly that his priorities were not academic, from the start. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!17:36, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
That "continued" was a vestige of an earlier edit and has been changed. Regarding his grades, I meant his grades from high school. I have edited that part of the sentence out to reduce confusion. Margo&Gladys (talk) 18:04, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Third, the "real jazz niggers" line shows a couple things: 1) it is a sign of the times; 2) it shows that he was consumed with finding organic, authentic, cutting edge jazz as it was coming into being. So I think the article is better with it included. ɳorɑfʈ Talk!17:36, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Ward is not clear if the "real jazz niggers" comment comes from Bix's letter to Burnie. I do not have the proper books with me at the moment to double-check, but if memory serves, he made that comment in a different letter referring to riverboat musicians. Either way, it may have been a sign of the times that some people used that word, but people continue to use that word today. I'm not sure what it adds, although it will inevitably offend some readers and/or raise the question of whether Bix was racist. While I don't think that the possibility of giving offense is reason in itself for not using the word in a situation such as this, there ought to be some compelling reason. And because the article does not address Bix's attitudes toward race, I'm not sure raising the question makes sense in this situation. (By the way, there's no reason to think that Bix was, for his time, especially racist, but an interview attributed to him in which he spoke admiringly of African Americans recently has been shown to be plagiarized. Absent that, we don't know much at all about his racial attitudes.) Bottom line, taking out the "real jazz niggers" quotation solves the problem of needing to paraphrase Ward while preventing the problems I've mentioned above. I added this, instead, right before the letter quotation: "He also traveled to the predominantly African American South Side to listen to what he called 'real' jazz." It strikes me as a fair compromise. Margo&Gladys (talk) 18:04, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
September 2010 Backlog Elimination Drive Conclusion
GOCE September 2010 backlog elimination drive progress graphs
Greetings from the Guild of Copy EditorsSeptember 2010 Backlog Elimination Drive. Thanks to all who participated! Several of our top editors were called away to real life concerns during the month (be careful out there, people!). This meant that once again, we did not meet all our lofty targets, but we did come close.
Stats
Out of 76 registered editors, 45 actively participated.
We nearly wiped out the 2008 articles from the backlog—there were only 13 remaining when the drive closed.
We reduced the backlog by 725 articles (11.5%), so it was another successful drive.
A total of 59 barnstars will be awarded to 40 editors—well done, and congratulations to all.
Barnstars
If you copy edited at least 4,000 words, you qualify for a barnstar. If you edited in the July 2010 GOCE Backlog Elimination Drive, you may have earned rollover words, which counted towards this month's barnstars (except for the leaderboard awards). Any unused word credits will be held over for the next drive, as long as you participated in the September drive. Over the course of the next week or two, we will be handing out the barnstars. Click here to see a list of barnstar winners.
We will be holding our next drive in November. You can sign up here.
A huge "thank you" to all editors who helped clear the backlog and to others who helped out behind-the-scenes. See you at the next drive, and until then, please continue to help us work through the backlog. Happy editing!
I apologize for not having better news and hope that none of my nominations at DYK are similarly troubled. Feel free to look any of them over. If you do, please start with the oldest dates.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:19, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
