This is an archive of past discussions with User:MisterCake. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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The copy edit that you requested from the Guild of Copy Editors of the article Walter Mayberry has been completed.
I archived several of the URLs (where allowed) and in the course of attempting to do this discovered that the article has developed several "dead links" which I have marked as [dead link]. I guess you'll have to try to find alternate sources to replace them.
Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.
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Thanks! UW Dawgs (talk) 05:50, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Unsourced content
Posting here, as you appear to be on a path towards adminstrative action. In multiple locations, we are in disagreement with Clemson football's participation in SIAA, begining with our brief discussion here Talk:Clemson Tigers football#conference affiliation.
My current view -absent ANY conflicting football source, is based on Clemson's view:
In numerous locations you have removed this content and its paired citation, generally replacing them with a statement indicating Clemson football was a member of SIAA for that specific year. While this is certainly possible, many (most) of your edits lack a citation. You have also declined to offer a Clemson football/SIAA citation when asked to do so on multiple Talk pages.
Taken in total, you edits are ignoring WP:Verifiability, ignoring WP:BURDEN re providing a citation supporting contentious content prior to re-adding it, engage in WP:DE by removing sourced content, and WP:TE by repeatedly re-adding challenged and disputed content without offering a supporting citation. I strongly encourage you to begin to take your content changes and Talk discussions seriously, specifically by clearly providing a valid citation when requested to do so. UW Dawgs (talk) 16:37, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
On the contrary, you've ignored multiple sources provided and responses to the same question. I've given you sources to show Clemson was in the SIAA in 1897, 1898, 1904, 1907, 1908, 1914, 1917, and 1921 off the top of my head, aside from Saylor's source on the SIAA. It's very obvious the only time Clemson knows enough to stick "SIAA" on a season is when they won the title, which you would have easily figured out had you sought out to corroborate the media guide with primary sources instead of ignoring mine. Cake (talk) 17:33, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
@UW Dawgs With respect (and to the previous editors), I think you misread the sources. Clemson was a member of the SIAA from around 1896 to 1921. It was never an Independent. The league was very large and not greatly organized beyond it's initial structure, and generally had not very clear guidelines for rankings, standings, or choosing champions. It was compiled by conference season records, which wasn't uniform since teams played different opposition in their various regions, and different numbers of games. I left a few sources on the corresponding talk pages. Respectfully, these Clemson pages, and their proper standings, need to be restored to their previous formats at some point. Thanks. SportsEdits1 (talk) 07:59, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
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Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a notice to inform you that a tag has been placed on Washington College (Tacoma) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. Pkbwcgs (talk) 18:30, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
Cake, could you help User:UW Dawgs or myself restore Clemson Military College / University in the Southern Conference standings (especially since they were charter members) and in the SIAA standings on individual team pages for all years they were removed (they were never Independents with Montana and South Carolina). Previous editors already had it correct. I am not sure exactly how UW Dawgs changed the templates or if he used WP:HC to do it globally somehow (not familiar with that program), or if it has to be fixed page for page. Thanks bud. SportsEdits1 (talk) 19:29, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
Think it was page by page. Thanks for the help. FYI, Auburn's 1897 yearbook does not list Clemson, but the 1898 one does. It's possible they joined in December (when the SIAA met) of 1896, so that the first real season of play was 1897. In other words, if you are correct that they start in 1896, it would be nice for a source, but there seem to be enough for the years thereafter. Cake (talk) 22:39, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
You bet. Wow, I was surprised UW made so many global changes based on a clear misreading of a media guide. I don't think the media guide editors bothered with ranking every season because the conferences back in those times are nothing like they are today in terms of organization, money, or control. I think the early conferences stayed afloat on dues back then. The general consensus among college sports professionals is that Clemson's head sports information director is one of the most respected in the business. As far as the 1896 part, the other man I spoke with cited the Wendell Bailey book as something they have around that mentions Clemson in affiliation or talks of some kind with SIAA as early as 1895, but again, I think the school recognizes 1896 because that was the year they fielded their first sports teams, which would make sense if they fielded baseball in the spring of 1896, then they would have most likely have been organizing the previous Autumn/ Winter. So I think 1896 makes the most sense for now. SportsEdits1 (talk) 06:36, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
UW questioned UNC's placement in the SIAA in part due to their media guide not mentioning it. If newspapers and Auburn yearbooks are any guide, he was right to do so. I also assented to the hypothetical that, say, UNC was in the SIAA for baseball but not for football; which was probably an error on my part. Using the same method of checking the media guide, he displaced Clemson and South Carolina's SIAA status. Had he have looked beyond the year-by-year section, he would see they did mention e. g. Puss Derrick as specifically All-SIAA in 1905. It seems to me the authors just preferred to suspend judgment on ranking the team in the SIAA other than 'banner years', for here on wikipedia it takes us years and multiple editors to get it right. If Clemson is your interest, might I add that Jess Neely's article could use an expansion on his coaching career. Cake (talk) 00:35, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
I saw an article in all this reading that criticized UNC for dropping out of the SIAA. It may have been one that you sourced? Sometimes, you can also find modern sources as to whether schools recognize membership or championships if there is a discrepancy, or contact their sports information offices. I see that you have written much about Vanderbilt Commodores. Think you might be interested in adding more to Clemson or their John Heisman or Bob Williams years if you come across more? Well, coming from the southeast, I already knew that those large changes were just not factual. I think editors on the college football talk page should be more cautious about removing or changing content that may have been researched by the work of previous editors. I won't even start about champions being plural when "standing alone" (not in a sentence) or proper. ;)~ BTW, I was curious as to why you dropped a conference game on the 1900 Clemson Tigers team? Is that because a conference opponent had contested membership? Was Furman members for awhile? And according to the Wofford football page, I saw that an editor added that they were members of SIAA since 1901. Feel free to fix my minor errors anytime, especially when I am haggling with boxes or graphs. Speaking of Cumberland, you should watch this video. I always wondered if another reason Heisman had so much supposed contempt for Cumberland in 1916, was because he was so gracious in sharing a championship with them in 1903. Anyway, Happy Holidays Cake. Enjoy: [1]SportsEdits1 (talk) 02:47, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
You too edits, and that is a brilliant little video. I just found that UNC at least applied for membership in 1900. I've at least tried to do much on Vandy and Florida, and the big SIAA years in general, such as Clemson from 1900 to 1903. If 1900 Clemson were truly outright champions, then surely more than the UGA and Bama games were conference matchups, but I am at a loss to say which one. Wofford or Davidson seem best bets, but e. g. like you say Wofford wasn't there yet. Clemson didn't play Furman in 1900, but yes it seems Furman was a sporadic SIAA member, including years in which the school didn't have a football team. Cake (talk) 04:23, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
I do like how the credits make it seem like a dime store true crime story, and certain portions like the alleged players tie-ing their legs together seems so absurd and makes me laugh. The Bill Casey user had Davidson listed as conference games on various standings, and there is that old Saylor summary [2] (not sure how accurate it is) which has Furman, South Carolina, and Chattanooga listed for a year or two along with several others. UNC is listed 1895 to 1901. Honestly, I think decisions (including rules and eligibility) were decided by delegates from each school . Since the South in its sports infancy was just sort of creating their teams and styles, I would have probably paid to see one of those early Heisman teams play Yale or Princeton or an Ivy League champion. That probably would have been an epic game. SportsEdits1 (talk) 06:25, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Found another source with some great details and anecdotes about the Heisman years and some player details: [3] And a more summary type of article [4]. Cheers. SportsEdits1 (talk) 08:19, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Assuming you mean Heisman at Clemson, that win over Hunter Carpenter at VPI in 1900 is probably the closest thing to beating a northern school. The original first game against the South was Princeton 115 or 116 Virginia 0 in 1890, so the south had little respect for a long time. The second vindication of northern supremacy was Pop Warner's Pitt 32 Heisman's Tech 0 in 1918. There was Tech 41 Penn 0 in 1917, and close loss to Pitt in 1920. Davidson was in NC of course, and so not in the "cotton states" but the south atlantic, and so Wofford seems more likely as conference game. One can find a few references to Auburn as 1900 champs, but in nothing reliable. One media guide did praise it as their first undefeated season. The chapter on the 1908 season in Fuzzy Woodruff's A History of Southern Football is "Auburn Crowned Champion", and also see the team picture. Aside from Heisman himself, the article I've worked on the most which might pique your interest is Carl Sitton - arguably Heisman's best athlete while at Clemson. Note the Vandy connection with Ferdinand E. Kuhn (Heisman was president of the Atlanta team). As per your source, note the lack of subs on the rosters and depth charts for those Clemson teams. Cake (talk) 17:25, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
I still would have loved to have witnessed in person an early form of Heisman's ideas and strategies in action before they became well known, copied, and more commonplace. Considering that it took several decades for football to spread to the South, and teams weren't really being organized until close to the turn of the century, I don't think anyone would dispute that. However, I wouldn't regionalize too much. American football was of course invented and reigned truly in the upper northeast among the eventual "Ivy League" schools at the time. I wouldn't consider VPI to be near that short list, although they did have a great player like a lot of upstart schools. Football was just too chaotic, too flash in the pan, and most schools too small and too poor to make grand generalizations comparing most schools to another. On a side note, as I recall reading, in 1918, many of Georgia Tech's best players from the previous seasons had gone to World War I. I also think there was a pandemic of Spanish Flu going around that time. Nice job on Carl Sitton. I will have to read more when I have time. SportsEdits1 (talk) 04:47, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Not pretending VPI is in the north, but along with UVA they played those ivy league schools occasionally, such that it's the closest thing Heisman's Clemson teams came to the north. Yes indeed 1918 Tech was a very different team than 1917 Tech, but not enough to ever live down 32 to 0. The big southern triumphs over the north would be 1910 Vandy/Yale and C6H0. Cake (talk) 16:29, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Would be forever grateful if you could expand the pre-season sections on any of Heisman's Clemson SIAA title years, not to mention any of the games given too short a treatment. Cake (talk)
Matthew Lyon
Hello:
The copy edit that you requested from the Guild of Copy Editors of the article Matthew Lyon has been completed.
Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.
Of course, that's what I meant. I was actually looking for the column to the right of that one, under "Hot Dogs, Sodas," which mentions a boxing promoter offering Taylor and Huff a boxing match after watching the game on TV. Apparently the offer was turned down but it surely would've been interesting. Lizard (talk) 16:47, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
I don't normally concern myself with ratings of articles, but every now and then I see one that makes me really scratch my head in disbelief. The above article is such a case. It has 21,000 bytes of information and includes 20 in-line citations. In what universe does that qualify as a "stub"? I assume this was an error? Cbl62 (talk) 23:50, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Take any rating of mine as a provisional "at least" rating - I certainly don't mind challenging it. It was most likely just a result of sorting the high importance season articles that I missed it was no stub. Cake (talk) 00:47, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
PS if you prefer the format you've used, by all means change the SEC and SoCon and SIAA and NCAA seasons to fit your style. I could say the same for the season articles of Vandy, Florida, Ga. Tech, Alabama, or any of the others. Cake (talk) 00:49, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
1920s Bama squads
Hello Cake! I have fleshed out a fair amount of details on both the 1923 and 1924 squads. I'll dig a bit more for some preseason and postseason stuff, but anything you may be able to add would be greatly appreciated as well. I used to be more interested in getting articles to GA, but have lost interest in the process. I am more than happy to contribute if you do submit any Bama articles for GA review in the future though. RTR! Patriarca12 (talk) 16:13, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Wonderful! 1922 to 1926 and 1930 seem the critical seasons for the Tide in the pre-SEC days. Along with Tech and Vandy, wikipedia is developing nice coverage of the football history in the Cotton States. Cake (talk) 17:09, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
In the "Before the Season" section I clarified several items with information from this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football - specifically the section "Evolution of the Game". I notice that this article also states that “teams were given four downs instead of three to advance the ball 10 yards” and reads as though this change occurred at the same time as the field length and end zone changes. If so, this should be added. You will also want to check that my clarifications as written are correct, I’m sure. (As an aside, I would not convert the lengths to metric as someone has done in this article – it’s completely unnecessary.)
In the Maryville section you write: "Despite the first two games being like practice games, the large scores were quite the surprise." This begs the unanswered question – Why?
Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.
Thank you very much Typist. My one concern as it stands is that Freeland wasn't lost to the Texas Longhorns if I recall, but just to whatever business in Texas. Will try and check the sources. Cake (talk) 17:07, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, that is my incorrect reading of your text. I assumed because you had Texas linked - it linked to a team. I should have checked! Why don't you rearrange it to say "and guard Will Metzger and tackle Ewing Y. Freeland to business - Freeland's taking him to Texas. (I would unlink Texas as it is what WP refers to as an unnecessary geographic link that has no bearing on the article and would not advance a reader's understanding of the subject.) Twofingered Typist (talk) 20:15, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
I just recently linked it in hopes to distinguish it from the Longhorns. Unfortunately, the source seems to contrast losing Metzger to business to losing Freeland to Texas, as if he went for some other reason. Cake (talk) 03:56, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
The Rams just hired a 30 year old as their head coach, which ESPN is calling the youngest head coach in NFL history. However I find it hard to believe there wasn't a player-coach younger than that way back in the pre-war NFL, no? Lizard (talk) 02:09, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Now ESPN is specifying as "youngest in the Super Bowl era." And at first it was "youngest head coach ever hired," which means Lambeau wouldn't count, since he founded and owned the Packers. Lizard (talk) 04:03, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Youngest in the Super Bowl era is more sensible, and likely correct. The earlier young coaches I can recall were generally in their early-to-mid 30s. Jon Gruden was 35, Lane Kiffin was 31, John Madden was 33, at their first season as head coaches. I think Kiffin was the prior Super Bowl-era record holder. --Jayron3214:09, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
List of Vanderbilt Commodores starting quarterbacks
I edited the page a little. I started at 11:45 pm and before I knew it, the time was 6:15. I left website sources but I do not think I keep the same them as how you was writing the code's. I like the idea of the page you have done a great job on it.MDSanker12:40, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
I know the feeling. Well done. It doesn't look like you messed up any theme I had going or what have you. As for the idea, see Georgia Tech's article on the same for the model. And thank you. Still looking for the 1891 Vandy and 1918 Florida quarterbacks. Just recently found Malone Jr. in '93 thanks to Fuzzy Woodruff. Cake (talk) 18:32, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
Nomination for deletion of Template:Union Bulldogs football coach navbox
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Death of Mary Jane Barker you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Legis -- Legis (talk) 19:41, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
A wide receiver can be a flanker (behind the line) or a split end (on the line). A split end is contra tight end. Hard to say, but it seems ok. In hard cases between the transition from end to receivers, maybe one can link the "end" in split end. OE is offensive end. Bucky Curtis, say, was an end on offense but a back on defense. So was Charles Woodson. Cake (talk) 19:07, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
File:1924Stanfordcoaches.jpg listed for discussion
Hey there! Thanks for submitting copy-editing Requests to the Guild of Copy Editors. It looks like you didn't notice the fine print at the top of the page that says "You may have up to three open requests at any one time. This is enforced so that every request can have a fair chance of being fulfilled within a reasonable period."
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Thanks for the quick response. You are welcome to resubmit any time, as long as you stay under three simultaneous requests. Thanks. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:42, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
GT Template Colors
Cake; another user is changing the colors on GT Templates again. As we "discussed," this happens every so often. Either I can address or you can address this issue with this user. It does not matter to me. However, you were the last one to update the colors for the GT Templates so you may want to address. Please let me know. Thanks - Mistercontributer (talk) 00:38, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
Eh, I think white text looks better, but as long as the main color is gold I am okay with it. I just didn't want the Golden Tornado and Yellow Jackets to look like Penn State. Cake (talk) 03:18, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. However, the GT templates are currently not consistent with regards to the color scheme. Several templates have the new color scheme and others still have your old color scheme. My main concern has always been keeping the color scheme consistent for all GT templates. I will address this issue as appropriate. Thanks again - Mistercontributer (talk) 00:40, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
If it is the only way to make it compliant, I don't see why not. However, I think Georgia Tech uses navy in recent times a lot more than black, and so they might object, or at least want a navy border, or something. Cake (talk) 03:08, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
We can keep the navy border... that isn't a problem. We would just be changing the font color. If you want, I can try and find a color closer to a blue-gray that fits with GT? Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 03:31, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
Sounds good to me with black text and a navy border, but I would hate to do it without hearing from more GT-minded editors like MisterContributer. Cake (talk) 04:07, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
I am OK with any color scheme which meets requirements: the GT templates must be easily readable, use GT colors, and all GT templates must have the same color scheme. Black text on gold background with navy border would meet these requirements. Mistercontributer (talk) 04:26, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
FYI Contributer, I recently got Fuzzy Woodruff's A History of Southern Football in three volumes, and as a writer from Atlanta he focuses on Tech more than anybody. Cake (talk) 12:49, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
That is great. As you know, GT was dominant in football in the early years, during the Heisman, Alexander, and Dodd eras. I wish that would have continued into the modern era. Also, you are doing great work on Wikipedia with regards to this subject. Your efforts are very much appreciated. Mistercontributer (talk) 13:13, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
Tried to fix all the templates, and thank you contributor. I've nearly got decent season articles for every year from 1915 to 1928. We're a little bit bitter about that last year. The book referenced was published in 1928, so the last game it mentions is the 1927 Georgia/Georgia Tech game. There are also things like Fuzzy giving Tech the title in 1922 without even considering Vanderbilt. He also seems to give Leonard Wood the status as the third founding father of football in the Cotton States, just after Charles Herty of Georgia and George Petrie of Auburn. Always found it odd how Heisman gets the forward pass legalized in 1906 yet 1904 and 1905 were his best years before 1915. Cake (talk) 23:20, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Matthew Lyon you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Shearonink -- Shearonink (talk) 22:21, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
Running back/halfback; where's the line, I wonder
I've noticed the "halfback" position is basically extinct for more recent players. Every single player post~1975 that played in the halfback position is listed on Wikipedia as a "running back." Even in the years after one-platoon, it seems they were still called halfbacks. Steve Van Buren, Hugh McElhenny, Gale Sayers were all clearly halfbacks. Yet 3 years after Sayers, Walter Payton, playing the same position in the same offense, is a "running back." (On that note, is there any franchise with a more storied history of running backs? Grange, Nagurski, Sayers, Payton...) I'm a stickler for standardization, but perhaps it's a case-by-case thing. Lizard (talk) 15:31, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
If halfback is synonymous with tailback, it's far from extinct; if it means one of two players in front of the fullback who can pass the ball, it's long dead. I'm not sure when "fullback" started to mean the one half-way back and the "halfback" started to mean the tailback. When a pro-set with one RB starts might give a hint. One should add that Grange and Sayers are both all-time greats in the return game, Nagurski and Payton could pass well, and all could catch the ball. Cake (talk) 17:38, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
I mean the name, not necessarily the position. Adrian Peterson definitely lines up as what would have been called a halfback in the 1960s, but today he's always just a "running back." Lizard (talk) 06:14, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
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DYK for Matthew Lyon
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This is taking me longer to get to than expected, but just confirming it's still on my radar and I'll be getting to it as soon as possible. I hope to have a first pass done by the end of this weekend. ~ Rob13Talk06:45, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Nomination for deletion of Template:Florida Agricultural College football coach navbox
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Looks like you're right about Ketron. He apparently had an eye for talent. Trippi was 6'0 and 160 lbs out of high school, so the string bean was turned down by 4 colleges. Lizard (talk) 16:50, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi, MisterCake. Thx. for your edits on the John Wayne Gacy article. Gonna be interesting to see whether they are disputed or not. As stated before, I am "sitting on the fence" with this issue and references. Regards, Kez.--Kieronoldham (talk) 04:13, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Congratulations for your Good Article promotion, Death of Mary Jane Barker! It was a pleasure reviewing the article and working on it with you. Very interesting article, I hope to cross paths with you in the future. Cheers! ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 14:03, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Dan McGugin you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Kaiser matias -- Kaiser matias (talk) 01:40, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Just a question regarding the GAC. I'm just waiting to hear from you regarding the final point, as to whether it is possible to expand the section on his law career at all, or if that is all that's available. It's been a few days now, so I just want to check in on that. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:10, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
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Nomination for deletion of Template:Carleton Knights football navbox
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Fielding H. Yost
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The copy edit that you requested from the Guild of Copy Editors of the article Fielding H. Yost has been completed.
Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.
I feel the article is organized in a logical manner, so I can't think of a way myself that this might be improved.
The coaching "tree", in alphabetical order also makes sense, but in some respects it might be better if it was hived off into an article of its own. You've obviously done a ton of research, and spent hours citing it. A GA reviewer may feel this section, as it stands now, includes far too much intricate detail for the "average" reader and only the most notable individuals should appear in the article, handled in a paragraph.
I've put up some initial thoughts; I can see you haven't been that active lately. Could you respond on the GA in the next few days before I complete a full review to let me know you're active and able to deal with anything that comes up? Harriastalk11:58, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1883 Carleton Knights football team until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1882 Hamline Pipers football team until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.- Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk03:57, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Nomination for deletion of Template:Hamline Pipers football navbox
You created William Henry Poole and he had an interesting life after his college football days. I found the article because I have been filling in missing birth days based on a Wikidata search I perform. Peek at his Wikimedia Commons page and see what documents I found. At first I wasn't sure that the two people were the same, but your reference placed him as a theological student. --RAN (talk) 14:59, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
His father was from there, before Florida. His mother was from Manhattan. Do you have a free account at Familysearch? After I do the research I create an entry for the person at Familysearch and then add the link to Wikidata. Familysearch has all the documents that Ancestry.com has, but for free. The LDS church owns the site. --RAN (talk) 23:30, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
I see now. Looks like Poole and I might both be descendants of Mareen Duvall. Yes I often use familysearch, and have used flickr and LOC before. Looking again though, there's a much nicer picture of Ed Harthere. Though I try to focus on the South. My best find might be this one of Red Barron scoring on Penn State. Cake (talk) 17:27, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Saw you’d created these in recent weeks. After the formation of the Southern Conference in 1921, aren’t these just effectively all-conference teams? If so, should they be separate articles from that point or should it be a combined list like List of All-Pac-12 Conference men's basketball teams? Feels like a bit much for separate articles for yearly all-conference teams if that’s what they are. Fully appreciate that prior to 1921 it was a broader net. Thoughts? Rikster2 (talk) 13:44, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
My prior experience is with the football teams. I am only just learning about the baseball and basketball teams. With fewer players on a basketball team, maybe the list is the way to go. Even on a list article I would distinguish between before and after 1932. I also wonder how that will handle multiple selectors. The same problem arises before 1921 and the Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association, though with the establishment of the Southern Conference basketball tournament it seems the All-Southern team was effectively synonymous with the All SoCon Tournament team. Before then, there are several All-Southern teams which I have been reluctant to add, which obviously take the notion regionally and not in the sense of a conference, for they include the likes of the Columbus Athletic Club and the Birmingham Athletic Club. Cake (talk) 14:14, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
I just worry that individual pages for an All-Conference team is a bad precedent. It would be reasonable that a new editor might see what is effectively a 1927 All-SoCon team article and conclude that there should be a separate page for the 2018 All-SoCon team. And then why not the 1970 All-Big Sky team? These lists usually are fairly straightforward and is a separate page needed to show 5 players? I think we could navigate the different selectors - that occurs today with leagues like the Big 10, and actually the SoCon as well, who both select official Media and Coaches all-conference teams. Rikster2 (talk) 14:23, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
If that's how the basketball projects handle it, I won't object to moving it. Of course, 1927 All-SoCon and 2018 All-SoCon are very different, with the former being something like both All-ACC and All-SEC. I don't know as much about "northern bias" keeping southern players off of All-America teams in basketball, though I wonder why Jack Cobb is not in the hall of fame. Cake (talk) 14:34, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Eh, not really that different. The SoCon had a bigger membership, but it's still the All-League team of that year. The league split off the SEC and ACC in subsequent years, but it was still just a conference and one that continues to this day, which is why this gets tricky for editors trying to figure out where the line should be. I haven't noticed much of a Northern bias in basketball All-America teams and I have done a lot of work on these articles and the players in them. I am a Carolina grad so I fully agree on Cobb, but the Basketball HOF is so inconsistent (especially with respect to players from 75+ years ago) that I just chalk it up to that. Rikster2 (talk) 14:40, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
There is a good book called (I think) “Cages to jump shots” that talks about this era. The game was pretty different then. Before 1937, the teams had a center jump after every made basket. Between that rule change, the evolution of the jump shot in the early 40s and the advent of the national tournaments in 1938, the game went through a lot of change in that time. The late thirties are generally thought of as the birth of the modern era. Rikster2 (talk) 15:53, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
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"Florida State College" is on the exact site as "Florida State University". Many of FSC's buildings are part of FSU's campus. W.W. Hughes remained at Florida State after the Buckman Act, and there is a building in the Latin program named for him today. In Florida State's Intro to Freshman Life class, the pre-Buckman Act football team is taught about by the University as the original football program, although it is also taught that there was a break in co-ed sports, due to the Buckman Act. You can see that, in the sources I used, many of them are from the university itself. Florida State recognizes this football team as part of its history and legacy. Other colleges, such as the pre-cursor to Georgia Tech and Auburn count these seasons as part of their football team, so I feel it is important to add these to Florida State football, with the distinction about the Buckman Act and UF taking FSU's coach and most of its players post-Buckman. This seems to be in line with how other schools forced to segregate are treated. IE: Florida A&M College for Negroes vs. Florida A&M University. These are recognized as the same school, even in light of the significant name change, mission of the school and who government allowed to attend. Thoughts?Norris.michaelj (talk) 15:30, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
If the school treats it as the same, I defer to it. My experience is with Florida, which sees Florida Agricultural College, East Florida Seminary, etc as all distinct. Even though East Florida Seminary was in Gainesville, the first year of Florida football is 1906. I thought, similarly, even though the West Florida Seminary was in Tallahassee, FSU's first year of football was 1947. Cake (talk) 16:01, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
Also, in regards to their membership in the Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association (SIAA): In the Vol. 70, No. 1 (Jul., 1991) edition of the Florida Historical Society Journal, pp. 20-37 “Before the Seminoles: Football at Florida State College, 1902-1904” it is stated “Coach Hughes informed the players, however, that the Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association (SIAA) restricted cash prizes for college games.” [1] That reads as Florida State had to abide by the requirements of the Association, which they would only have to do as members of the association. That would mean that they are not independent, but members of the association. Thoughts?Norris.michaelj (talk) 19:00, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
As above I defer to the university to handle its own history, though I wonder whether one says "FSU football started in 1947" and refers to this time as part of its pre-history, like UF does, or "FSU football started in 1902, with a long hiatus from 1905 to 1946", as one might with Stetson or Mercer. Auburn's yearbook has a list of SIAA members for 1903, and no Florida school is on it. I have to wonder whether the quote is referring to a game with Georgia Tech or something, and doubt that FSC was ever a member. Cake (talk) 19:50, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
