Hi Joopers. I got pulled back into editing briefly out of affection for Meher Baba, whose article was being 'helped' by some new editors. Eventually the trail led here. I said some kind words about you here. You were a great editor. I've somehow found myself tracking the Giano story, and it just seems like intelligence has gone to hell around here...maybe because WE LEFT????? --Nemonoman (talk) 17:08, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some people refer to your excellent contributions Giano, but really your talent is really nailing those idioms with superb examples. Take above where you've demonstrated the "pot calling the kettle black" to a tee. --Joopercoopers (talk) 19:41, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wot like Hallam (2Ds and a swimming badge)? No, certeinly not. Well you have made some very nice edits there, but I'm glad you felt the need to explain "hydroponicum." Giano (talk) 12:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think you'll find that was Ms Jasper, who seems delightful btw, but has a worrying morbid fascination with Japanese POW camps - she's appealing for witnesses - you're of that age, perhaps you might be able to assist? --Joopercoopers (talk) 12:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are mistaken JC, as a very small child, I do rmember being allowed to watch Tenko, however as I spoke no English at the time, it all rather passed over my head. How is the war wound by the way? Giano (talk) 12:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For the time being, I'm going to wait for the RFC to conclude. Regardless of how we proceed after that, I see little benefit in jumping the gun at this stage. Kirill(prof)12:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I was referring more to my own participation in the matter than to the possibility of discussion as a whole. I'm not sure whether the RFC would be the best place to discuss this—the broader IRC matter is essentially a policy formation debate, and the RFC/U structure isn't necessarily set up to handle that well—but if you'd like to do it there, that's up to you. Personally, I'd start up a separate centralized discussion to develop a comprehensive, community-imposed IRC usage/structure/etc. policy rather than limiting this to a question of what the Committee, specifically, should do about IRC. Kirill(prof)12:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Arbcom agreed here that IRC#admins was a source of conflict [2] and they agreed to address the issue here [3] - I believe that is your sig, Kirill, there too? In short the Arbcom has renegaded on it's own decisions, it has done nothing to address the issue, yet wants me to abide by its findings. Tough luck Kirill, that is not the way the world works. To cover its own failings the Arbcom now seeks to penalise me, and drag me into every possible case in an attempt to shut me up for pointing it's shortcoming out - extraordinary behaviour, I wonder why that is? Giano (talk) 20:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know you are asking Wetman for his opinion on his talk, but allow me to exclaim "Outstanding!" with regard to your test page. It is elegant, functional and satisfies the concerns of both sides of the infobox real estate argument. Really a masterful solution, if you could apply that format to the Ponte Vecchio page as another test I beleive its adoption would be moved forward. Sswonk (talk) 15:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jooperscoopers - I just stumbled across the test page and wanted to say "great idea!" I spend virtually all my wiki time at WikiProject Aircraft and can tell you that this approach has enormous value and utility for that project.
Because of its radically new approach, I have no doubt that it will run into enormous resistance when it's put forward. When you're ready to take the proposal further, please get in touch, and I'll happily weigh in with specifics of how it would help WP:AIR (as an example) and will be happy to do up an example article or two based on the specific version that you're putting forward at the time.
I find it interesting how you put your argument. I can't, and don't really, claim that an id number is key to such articles. I suppose such information is included for the reasons you state: it's easy, it's do-able, so they included it. For a bridge, what would you suggest? How would you change the {{infobox bridge}} to make it useful for engineering instances such as Golden Gate Bridge and those which have more to them such as Rialto Bridge? What would you remove and add?
Personally, looking at the template, I'd probably remove the Maintained By, and the ID number. Add for PV? Hm. The problem is that this is limited to fairly short data. The number of individual buildings on top is probably not of interest. Maybe add entries from something like {{Infobox shopping mall}} with Floor Area, and maybe websites relevant to the shops in some form. Also, perhaps an entry which links to parts in the article of special historical events. If we changed the infobox, we could then use the results on the other three bridges which would make use of the new entries from the mall template, and on all bridge articles for historical events. - Denimadept (talk) 22:44, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest not including information in such prominent positions at all solely because its simply, easy and do-able - that doesn't improve the encyclopedia. My current proposition is to include a statistical subpage if required, that either would, or would not, be duplicated as an infobox on the main article as required - but I'm still working out the details. The entire Golden Gate Bridge box misses the central point of the bridge from an encylopedic point of view - that it was once a true engineering marvel is now less important than its status as an iconic landmark of the city - quite how you'd shoe-horn that into an infobox category is really your problem. On a bad-taste but jocular note, how about "Number of Suicides in 2007" for the infobox? In short, I don't think tweaking the fields is really the solution - you'd end up with a field for each bridge, so you might as well have a well written lead. --Joopercoopers (talk) 23:22, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the point from my point of view. The fact that the GGB is a symbol of San Francisco might be mentioned in the GGB article, but it belongs in the SF article. It has little to do with the bridge and lots to do with the city. You can draw the obvious parallel. - Denimadept (talk) 03:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Its a shame you struggle with a wider view of things Denim, life's richer for the interconnectedness of things.......I'd like to see you try to remove the 'mention' in the article if that's your contention - the two clearly have a symbiotic relationship. Is the Eiffel Tower just a radio tower? Or an expression of French nationhood, confidence, engineering prowess and penis envy? (maybe not the last one, but you never know). Not to mention a tourist attraction, a light show a meeting place, a landmark, a scene for love in spring, a symbol for all things French. Things usually operate on a lot of different levels than just the prosaic, when you start to include the cultural, artist and historic viewpoints - sometimes these a paramount to the structures, sometimes the engineering is more important. Out of interest - how do you view the Millau Viaduct? Breathtaking isn't it? --Joopercoopers (talk) 04:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Taking your last point first, neat! Never heard of it before. The refs I've got tend toward older construction, but I haven't read them cover to cover yet. One is a reprint of a 1929 book, the other dates from 2003. Looks like the Millau Viaduct is out of range. :-D
I'm an amateur photographer. I appreciate the softer side too, but I see bridges as mainly a civil engineering product. Everything else comes after that, as a bridge fan.
Now then, regarding the Ponte Vecchio, these two books dedicate space to it, for certain. The newer book gives it a large picture and a paragraph. Kinda disappointing. In part: "Built in 1345 by Taddeo Gaddi, it was the only bridge over the Arno in Florence which was spared when the German army retreated in 1944. The Ponte Vecchio is one of the few remaining examples of the medieval practice of erecting buildings on the bridge deck. The bridge's shops were initially occupied by various tradesmen, but since 1593 by gold- and silversmiths." (Cortright, Robert S. Bridging the World. Wilsonville, Oregon: Bridge Ink. pp. p.43. ISBN0-9641963-3-6. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters: |origmonth=, |accessmonth=, |origdate=, |coauthors=, |month=, |chapterurl=, and |accessyear= (help))
The older book (Whitney, Charles S. (2003) [1929]. Bridges of the World: Their Design and Construction. Mineola, New York: Dover Publications, Inc. pp. pp.107, 163. ISBN0-486-42995-4. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters: |origmonth=, |accessmonth=, |origdate=, |coauthors=, |month=, |chapterurl=, and |accessyear= (help)) contains not much either. It has a B&W image on the same page, by the way, as a pre-war (by necessity) picture of Ponte Coperto which is a similar construction (less most of the buildings), plus minimal text. I find that I'm not especially satisfied by either book's coverage of this bridge! :-(
While the structures mentioned are important as you say, to some degree that's just because they've been there for quite a while. The original feedback about the Eiffel Tower, before construction I believe, was very biased toward the negative. Ditto the The Crystal Palace. Note that the latter is no more, in part because of that original input. The Eiffel Tower was lucky in that it had and has other uses than as a transmission tower. According to the article on the Ponte Vecchio, it had its detractors as well, at least before it was actually built. Having been there for some time, an object gets rather set in people's minds. They defend it, they rely on it to be there, even if they originally thought it hideous. Note the destruction in Britain a few days ago of a pair of cooling towers from the 1940s took the company involved over a decade to complete apparently because the locals wanted to save them.
But this structure is rather different. Maybe I'd understand better if I were to visit the area, but that's not likely any time soon. At this point, my basic method of operation is to find something interesting in a book (or my ASCE calendar), check out its Wikipedia article, creating it if need be (Alcántara Bridge, Meiko Nishi Ohashi roadway bridges, others), and adding to any existing article if possible. This month's bridge on my calendar was already more than sufficiently covered, so I left it alone (Millennium Bridge (London)), but generally I find I can add to something at least once a month. I didn't, and still don't really, see the Ponte Vecchio bridge as any different in that regard. They haven't even bothered to give it a name, according to everything I've seen; it just has a description, and not a unique one at that. I'll grant you that's not too telling in this case. - Denimadept (talk) 05:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So from your own research you've determined:-
The Ponte Vecchio is one of the few remaining examples of the medieval practice of erecting buildings on bridges. So it has a value in that it can still be studied whereas the others can not.
Structures might become more important as they age - I disagree that is because they get 'set in people's mind', for one thing they become rare - you know the Indian Jones line about the watch "a ten dollar worthless piece of Junk, bury it in the sand for a thousand years and its priceless".
You confuse popularity with importance. The Crystal Palace might have been too revolutionary for its own time, but went on to influence generations of architects and engineers - if you see a lot of glass buildings in cities these days, that's in part because of the Crystal palace, the fact it had mixed receptions is irrelevant (and a good argument why the presumption should be to conserve certain types of 'unpopular architecture' - Brutalism is having a very hard time at the moment, but in 100 years who knows what the view of it may be?)
And yet you still don't see the Ponte Vecchio as any different to the Meiko Nishi Ohashi roadway bridges and believe that the most important thing about it is its span and width (which are rather unremarkable to me, in comparison). Well I can't really help you then, you must suffer alone. For what its worth I suggest someone gets hold of the 1980s Banister Fletcher Comparative Method (now listed in the references) and looks up the entry - my copy, although with a lovely Art Deco gold leaf cover, was published in the 20s and doesn't refer to it - the revised and updated version has both pictures and text. --Joopercoopers (talk) 16:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly the two bridges are different! The Ponte Vecchio is much nicer looking, whereas the MNO bridges are rather utilitarian and industrial looking with their kind of "A" frame towers and repetitive shapes. The funny thing, from my point of view, is that your previous reference to Millau Viaduct is to an article which seems to be entirely about the physical structure. It's neat and all, but it hasn't yet had time to develop the kind of veneer the Ponte Vecchio has. Maybe that's your point. Why is it, though, that you apparently refuse to accept that at its root the Ponte Vecchio is a bridge, with certain specs? Yes, it's not extremely large, so what? Size isn't everything. It's not using the latest tech either, and its WiFi range is likely non-existant. It's still a cool structure, and the basic specs are of interest. So is everything beyond the basics. Does that mean the basic specs are irrelevant??
Jooper, I already struck part of it a couple of days ago and no one objected. How does one go about making a working draft? It is within the guidelines of WP:TALK at any rate. Really, isn't it simpler to strike an "oppose" with "support" or some other thing and explain the change? A quick reply would be appreciated because the reintroduction method seems to me to be similar to a filibuster. Sswonk (talk) 00:35, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
much better - please proceed. (although v. bored of talk page discussions - I may need to take a mainspace sabatical pretty soon - in fact i'm off to the Lakes for a few days so please don't slash the seats while I'm gone. --Joopercoopers (talk) 00:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have archived the discussion at MoS. The experiment at Ponte Vecchio will continue and no further discussion about a blanket statement against hiding infoboxes appears necessary. The discourse bore fruit in that major concerns about functionality and innovation were aired and a cooperative atmosphere prevailed. Sswonk (talk) 18:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks - yes. I'm hoping to move the userspace page to mainspace once I've got some more of the details thrashed out - so its more convenient for the mainspace subpages to already be in the right place (but they're kind of hidden from the general reader). regards --Joopercoopers (talk) 10:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm concerned about this petition's presence in the Requests for Arbitration space—one which is generally reserved for "official" Committee pages. I suspect the petition will eventually be moved elsewhere, and so, with a view to going with the least upset possible, I'd like your permission to move it to a page in your userspace (or, at your request, to another specified location).
The clerks have agreed that placing this petition in a subpage of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration is misleading and confusing because it gives the impression that it has been sanctioned by the Arbitration Committee, or that it is part of the operation of the Committee, neither of which is accurate. I would suggest that a formal Request for Comments is probably the best format for what you are trying to achieve.
The discussion mostly took place on the clerks' mailing list; if you want, I can post a short summary of the discussion somewhere around the clerk's notice board and give you a diff to that, but I'm not entirely certain I see the point. — Coren(talk)21:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There it is. I'm still not sure I understand your point about transparency given that I had notified you here and that is just as much on the record, but I could think of no reason to not make that link for you. — Coren(talk)12:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Origins and architecture of the Taj Mahal subpages
As subpages are not allowed in the main space, I have moved the following articles into your user space for you to work on:
Hey Joopercoopers good to see you at the Lissitzky FAR and article. Expect some ref adding from me this weekend, if it isn't all done by then already. Yours truly, dvdrw00:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tabbed pages redux
I just spotted this question: WP:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)#Making_navboxes_and_.22see_also.22_sections_more_visible and would like to start a discussion about the issues involved, including a reference to our sometimes heated debate over Ponte Vecchio. How far have you gotten with what I saw as an elegant and obvious potential solution, that is the concept of tabbed articles? I ask because these discussions continue to simmer to a varying degree in VP and MOS contexts, and I think the tabbed article concept, requiring a project-wide sea change in thinking and page layout, offers a viable future solution. I see that Lar still uses a tabbed user page, and that it would make a lot of sense to use a similar structure to satisfy the concerns of many editors. Here's to a workable solution, in which the article contains all text, images and essential charts and figures, with nav and infobox sections on separate tabs, also an option for image gallery and even category tree tabs. What do you think, and how have you been by the way? Sswonk (talk) 19:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So would you mind telling me where you found out and why you asked - the account hasn't been used in ages - are you responding to my criticisms on Giano's page with some kind of muscle rippling insinuation? --Joopercoopers (talk) 19:17, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I didn't mean to attack you. Because of your reply to me on Giano's page I checked your contributions list and found this edit: [4], and couldn't find an explanation. --Apoc2400 (talk) 19:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See block log. My universal login is tied to mcginnly, so if I login in de.wp and come back here, I'm logged out as JC and in as mcginnly. Rather annoying that - I'd like a universal login with JC as my main account here and mcginly elsewhere. But there's no requirement to declare in any event - I'm not running for Arbcom! --Joopercoopers (talk) 19:29, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
CDF
Thanks for the comments and note; I've left a responce on the FAC page. Feel free to join in on the discussions on the talk, the wider the base of openion the better. Ceoil (talk) 19:43, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Giano
Fred, I appreciate saying on Giano's page the block will be reviewed is necessary to prevent any old tom dick or harry reblocking him - but are you sure you're the right man for the job given your two histories. This doesn't look like an impartial action. --Joopercoopers (talk) 22:08, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Prior to a proposal I made to ban Giano for incivility as a remedy in an arbitration case a couple of years ago we had no conflict. I did not even know who he was. FredTalk22:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely - for several years, there has been bad blood between you - and presumably you know who he is now - its stretching credulity a little to think you're impartial here. --Joopercoopers (talk) 22:15, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was impartial when I began considering the matter. Obviously, I have drawn certain conclusions in the meantime, but I will be making a decision based on his edits. FredTalk22:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WikiProject Gurukul
Thanks for the input. I dunno if it will end up being a WikiProject, or just a set of essays in my user space. I put a few words on that issue on its Talk page. Thanks again! Ling.Nut(talk—WP:3IAR)22:23, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
MfD
I was out for the night but it doesn't put egg on my face at all to try and get rid of something I personally considered excessively nasty, regardless of the outcome that came about. Would you stand by if you felt the same? StickyParkin22:59, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One's almost tempted to support him and Forrester to avoid the excrutiating embaressment of having to watch, no wonder the rest of them blanched when I suggested they all put themselves up for election. I'm sorry poor old Hochman is not doing better, as he is one of the few with the brains and courage to give some definnitive leadership. The fact that Durova has commented as she did ought to make at least 200 vote for him, but there you are you can take a horse to the water etc. Giano (talk) 16:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Gothic
Thanks JC for your support re Gothic and Gothic Revival. So far you are the only one to have made any comment. I am of a mind to create English Gothic architecture as a sub-cat of Gothic architecture. This should solve the "problem" - no big deal I agree. Do you have any objection? I have just noticed your new list of Gothic Revival architects - I shall add some more.
Incidentally I seem to remember that months ago you offered to take photographs (excellent as ever I presume) of churches etc in Cheshire, and I made no response (shame on me). I have managed to add images to most of the churches in North Cheshire but there are quite a few in South Cheshire I have not reached (and winter would be a good time for taking them - no leaves). And then there are a number of Grade I listed buildings (not churches) in the county without images....., see Grade I listed buildings in Cheshire.
English Gothic Architecture as a subcat of Gothic architecture sounds sensible to me - probably with English Gothic Revival architecture as a subcat of Gothic Revival architecture. No problem with the photographs - I'll just work through the blanks in the list unless you have any pressing ones you'd like. regards --Joopercoopers (talk) 14:44, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that. I think I'll do that when I get time - unless there's opposition from the Project. User:Trident13 has already created the subcat of Gothic Revival architecture in England so I think we can leave that as it is. Cheers. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 10:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Joopercoopers, sorry for my slow response. Victorian Gothic is of course a Gothic Revival, and might be merged. I saw it as distinct in that like most cycles of architectural revival, particularly after it has past, we notice at least as much about the period of the revival as the original style it attempts to revive. It is a long and broad subject, including delicate examples and large ponderous piles of buildings too. Another sub-category would be Carpenter Gothic a domestic style popular in the mid-19th century in North America. The term "Victorian" is of course loaded too, in that it is Anglocentric and similar buildings were being built across Europe, Africa, and North and South America. But the term does seem to be widely used to describe 19th century Gothic Revivals even here in the U.S. It's a hard one to get a handle on, a church I attend, built in 1871-75, is described as Venetian Gothic, exhibit's Ruskinian ideas, has English Clayton and Bell stained glass based on 15th century English stained glass, but the polychrome stencils look like something Pugin would have done. A part of me thinks that if you consolidate that, should we also consolidate Carpenter Gothic or other related revivals? CApitol3 (talk)
Hmm..? What's with the blanking, Joops? Sorry about my edit of Giano's page, I bet I just ec'd you. :-( I'll leave you in possession now. You might care to let me know when you're done. Bishonen | talk20:11, 16 December 2008 (UTC).[reply]
It's a cross I have to bear :-) Of course, polite dissent is far easier to ignore unfortunately. What grinds my gears is Giano's hauled over the coals for his 'incivility' because it supposedly doesn't make a good environment for editors, but Arbcom, first let FT2 rant ad-infinitum at the RFAR, before mercifully asking him to stop - but still enabling the delaying tactic, then pull the Giano-drama rabbit out of the hat for further delays and proving beyond doubt that content contribution is valued as an activity that should be wiped off the soles of our shoes around here. I'm so f*in angry about it I don't know how to express that forcefully without going entirely 'postal'. So I'll sit and stir my tea with menace. --Joopercoopers (talk) 12:03, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And just as an addendum; if we don't get the relationship between administration and authors sorted, how the hell is this going to work? Can you see our 16 yr old admins, popping up on Inflammatory markers and experimental studies in occupational and environmental diseases and insisting every sentence has an in-line citation, must conform to NUMMOS, NIMBOS, and whatever is the policy de jour, have the 'chemstry n stuff' infobox and then threaten more academics with blocks and bans when they complain that hippies are adding unsourced materials about the effects of crystals? Far from ideal aren't we? --Joopercoopers (talk) 12:36, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a little prickly, but I'm not all that worked up about it - and I've been complaining loudly at the committee to get a move on too. I just took issue with the part saying the clerks coming along in our "own sweet time," but its not a big deal. Sorry if I unhappy with you - I wasn't. --Tznkai (talk) 21:52, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, thanks
It wasn't the neatest of endings but I am going to call and end. Many thanks to you and others for the kind and patient help you have shown. At some point, back to the Dark Ages, but a rest for now, I think. Thanks again. Peter Damian (talk) 08:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for making 2008 an interesting and enlightening year for me; our paths have often crossed and I've found your comments amusing, helpful or thought-provoking—I'll let you guess which ones were which!
Wishing you and yours a joyous holiday season, and happiness, health and hopefulness in 2009. I trust you'll enjoy this little token, a favourite performance of Baby, it's Cold Outside, for your holiday amusement. Best, Risker (talk) 03:37, 25 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Hi Joopercoopers. I remember you asking about the 'sublime' with respect to Caspar David Friedrich, here. I came across an interesting passage that has helped me understand my own attraction to his art. Since this passage is the closest connection between the sublime & Friedrich that I've come across (though I don't claim to be well read on the subjects), I thought I would pass it on. The source is [6]:
In the work of Caspar David Friedrich we repeatedly encounter a figure seen from behind—the Rückenfigur, engaged in contemplation of a view. This is the simplest of devices for representing aesthetic experience in the new, Kantian sense, centred quite literally on the observing subject. In Wanderer above the Sea of Fog, the Rückenfigur’s head is at the horizontal centre of the canvas, and his waist exactly bisects its vertical dimension. Moreover, the view is balanced with uncanny symmetry around the figure. Indeed, the space is not measurable in the ordinary terms of post-Renaissance perspective,
but only in relation to the figure itself. The rising fog makes unfathomable the spaces between the foreground crag, the rocks in the middleground, and the distant peaks. When we make out the trees on the rock to the right of the figure’s elbow they seem unexpectedly tiny; then the distant peaks seem to spring away to a vast distance. As we scan the picture our efforts to comprehend the scale relationships are constantly tested or defied. Although this is not a particularly large picture, it gives a strong sense of the kind of aesthetic experience Kant called sublime, in which we strain to perceive something limitless or
infinite. We are thwarted in the attempt to realize this perception fully, both by the magnitude of the view and by the scudding patches of fog, yet this failure to comprehend produces a feeling of awe or wonder that is the counterpart, in the experience of the sublime, to the free play of mind in response to the beautiful. It is not, then, the landscape itself, but rather the viewer’s aesthetic experience, that can be called sublime in the Kantian sense.
... Unlike more traditional representations of landscape, this painting does not pretend to present us with a natural
scene as it exists in its own right, but makes us conscious instead that we are seeing a human perception of nature. Friedrich has, then, found a way to present a scene that corresponds to the Kantian aesthetic experience. Moreover, the painting is not merely an anecdotal representation of a figure engaged in the experience of the sublime, it also provides us viewers with an aesthetic experience analogous to that of the Rückenfigur herself.
This is not to claim that Friedrich had the specific intention of demonstrating Kantian aesthetic philosophy. Had this been his aim, it would threaten the aesthetic credentials of the painting, which would then be tantamount to a logical treatise in visual form; it would be directed towards a specific end, that of demonstrating the Kantian theory of the sublime. This points to a serious difficulty that occurs when Kant moves from his theory of aesthetic experience, in the early sections of the Critique of Judgement, to a discussion of artmaking. While we can easily imagine that Friedrich may not have intended the
painting to be a visual treatise on aesthetics, it is scarcely conceivable that he made it without any intentions at all....