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User talk:Info AnonymWelcome!Hello, Info Anonym, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful: You may also want to complete the Wikipedia Adventure, an interactive tour that will help you learn the basics of editing Wikipedia. You can visit the Teahouse to ask questions or seek help. Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! Place Clichy (talk) 16:42, 17 October 2019 (UTC) Your reverts
I'd be very happy to discuss it with you, before you engage in edit warring. However, I'd like to ask you to stop reverting my thoughtful edits before we discuss the matter more. Place Clichy (talk) 16:51, 17 October 2019 (UTC) So, I am extremely new here so I don't know if there is some messaging system or where people usually discuss, but I guess I am supposed to answer here. Feel free to correct me if that is wrong or not the typical way. Great to hear that you know that Jews are of Middle Eastern descent, but saying that you removed those categories because in your eyes it makes little sense to place them there is not really credible considering how you are actively targeting and erasing those categories everywhere but placing for example Middle Eastern diaspora in Arab diaspora in North America. That is what I call trying to make a point. Also, the fact that Jews are of Middle Eastern descent may be something that you know, but a lot of people still try to erase that identity or don't even know that when that is actually very important in current discussions, too. You are actively contributing to that misinformation giving questionable reasons. Categorising Jews in Middle Eastern descent is not wrong and not withholding or hiding that information is very important considering that it is put into question constantly for the sake of certain narratives and arguments. Why such a passion to remove it?(Info Anonym (talk) 17:23, 17 October 2019 (UTC))
Stop removing a category that is relevant and most of all true! I don’t see how it would bother someone so much to disconnect Jews and the Middle East, knowing there is a connection, to go around and delete the categories unless they have an ulterior motive. Jews descend from the Middle East, DNA tests prove that modern Jews are still overwhelmingly Middle Eastern, Jews rightfully consider themselves and identify as Middle Eastern, Jewish religion and culture originates and is closely tied to the Middle East e.g. religious Jews have always prayed and pray to Jerusalem every day which is and was in the Middle East and now the Jewish state has been reestablished in the Middle East again! Yes, of course, their middle eastern descent is important and valid! And even if you were to take that argument about the last generations into consideration, we can then make the point that by now the majority of Jews have been in the Middle East for generations again + the mizrahi and Sephardi jews who have been there even earlier! This category confirming the connection is also important and relevant considering that people regularly deny it and use that denial of Jewish indigeneity and even just presence in the Middle East before the reestablishment of Israel as argument for its annihilation and illegitimacy. You literally bring no better argument forward than the fact that you personally (!) don’t deem it relevant. If you don’t undo it or leave it when I do or someone else does it, that ultimately only proves how you are just trying to make an argument. Possibly the one I mentioned before. (Info Anonym (talk) 03:19, 18 October 2019 (UTC))
So, first off, WP:TRUTH says that there should be reliable sources for added material. There are many reliable sources that prove that Jews are of middle eastern descent and very, very few contradicting ones, most disproven by now like the Khazar theory. And as I said, which you however ignored, there is scientific evidence through DNA tests that modern day Jews are still overwhelmingly Middle Eastern and the ones who are not - are not actually ethnically Jewish as "Jews" was literally the name given to the people that fled from and were expelled from Judea (hence their name). Unless you argue that (the ancient Jews) Israelites/Judeans are not even Middle Eastern your argument is not consistent. Moreover WP:TRUTH says that you shouldn’t delete content just because you believe it to be untrue, either. Which is certainly the case with you considering all evidence speaks against the point you’re making that Jews are not Middle Eastern. And in this category talk most people already agreed on that. "Jewish religion and culture originates and is closely tied to the Middle East“ and "people regularly deny it and use that denial of Jewish indigeneity and even just presence in the Middle East before the reestablishment of Israel as argument for its annihilation and illegitimacy“ - Your criticism towards those statements was that they don’t prove descent. They don’t because that is not what I made them for as nobody had actually been arguing Jewish Middle Eastern descent before you. Place Clichy was talking about how adding it everywhere is an overkill and serves absolutely no purpose. The discussion was about whether that is relevant or not. And as I and Jeffgr9 and others have shown - it is. It is an integral part of Jewish identity. Genetically AND culturally. It has never been lost. But you basically reduced all the points to „2000 years ago so what?“ without actually disproving any of them. Also me pointing out that you personally don’t deem it relevant is not a case of WP:NPA but me pointing out that it doesn’t seem like a WP:NPOV. But to make it simple - we are talking about the category „Middle Eastern diaspora in North America“ right? Look at the Wikipedia article for diaspora. It says: „A diaspora is a scattered population whose origin lies in a separate geographic locale. In particular, diaspora has come to refer to involuntary mass dispersions of a population from its indigenous territories, most notably the expulsion of Jews from the Land of Israel (known as the Jewish diaspora)(…)“. In the article of jewish diaspora it says that it „refers to the dispersion of Israelites or Jews out of their ancestral homeland (the Land of Israel) and their subsequent settlement in other parts of the globe.“. We all know that the Land of Israel, which is described as the ancestral homeland of the Jews, was in the Middle East. Thus, even following the definitions ON WIKIPEDIA, it makes sense to call it a Middle Eastern Diaspora especially considering the goal of categories is to able to navigate through WIKIPEDIA and contradictions within wikipedia are not helpful! And concerning the last two guidelines you pointed to: - WP:CONSENSUS says „In deletion discussions, a lack of consensus normally results in the article, page, image, or other content being kept.“ Which is what it started off as! - WP:CATV says that a category should GENERALLY be uncontroversial which is very important in the judicial meaning of the word. That means that there are exceptions such as if the category is verifiable and defining. Which it is in this case. If you want to delete that category you need to bring forward evidence that speaks against the category being defining for Jews in North America. Otherwise as WP:CONSENSUS says, we leave it. (Info Anonym (talk) 00:43, 19 October 2019 (UTC))
Some thingsYou are a very new editor, and this edit summary shows that you do not understand what is usually meant with a "deletion discussion" on Wikipedia. Please see WP:AFD for article deletion discussions. On Category:North American Jews we are considering the removal of a category from another category page. We are not considering whether to delete Category:North American Jews itself. And since I am here already, I must warn you that you are engaged in edit warring. Please review WP:WAR for how you should behave when you are having a disagreement with another editor. Repeating your edit without obtaining prior consensus is not how to go about editing on a community build project, and is likely to lead in the short future to restriction of your editing privileges. Debresser (talk) 19:19, 21 October 2019 (UTC) Also, I wanted to ask you, how did you get involved in the discussion at Category:North American Jews? I see you had no prior edits on Wikipedia before you came there. Debresser (talk) 19:27, 21 October 2019 (UTC) Okay, so if we are talking about removal, take a look at this: WP:DON'T PRESERVE. It describes when it is appropriate to remove content. None of it applies. It is verifiable, verifiable by reliable sources, not original research etc. Concerning the edit warring: I didn’t break the three revert rule (and I am just reverting a revert that was done and repeated without prior consensus either). And I got involved because I saw Place Clichy on a hunt to delete categories that prove Jewish and Middle Eastern connection on literally every single page that had to do with Jews outside of Israel whilst adding middle eastern diaspora to Arabs outside of the Middle East. If that doesn’t prove an ulterior motive and a lack of WP:NPOV, targeting and attempting to erase that relevant, verifiable and defining connection I don’t know what does. But just to clarify: there are objectively no grounds for removing that category, I just told you my personal motivation for why I got involved because you asked for it. (Info Anonym (talk) 19:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC))
WP:ANI
November 2019
Points to note:
If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Debresser (talk) 09:12, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
I reverted you because you started reverting again although we had not reached consensus yet and had all stopped editing for a while. Let’s discuss if you have arguments instead of unjustified intimidating. I genuinely want to have that discussion and want to hear what there is to object about my proposition for categorization. Info Anonym (talk) 20:28, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
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