User talk:Ineffablebookkeeper/Archive 1

Archive 1Archive 2

Welcome!

Hello, Ineffablebookkeeper, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

You may also want to complete the Wikipedia Adventure, an interactive tour that will help you learn the basics of editing Wikipedia. You can visit the Teahouse to ask questions or seek help.

Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask for help on your talk page, and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! Dusti*Let's talk!* 20:04, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Welcome to The Wikipedia Adventure!

Hi Ineffablebookkeeper! We're so happy you wanted to play to learn, as a friendly and fun way to get into our community and mission. I think these links might be helpful to you as you get started.

-- 13:13, Sunday, May 5, 2019 (UTC)

Mission 1 Mission 2 Mission 3 Mission 4 Mission 5 Mission 6 Mission 7
Say Hello to the World An Invitation to Earth Small Changes, Big Impact The Neutral Point of View The Veil of Verifiability The Civility Code Looking Good Together

your teahouse post

I don't have any great advice for the questions you posed on WP:TEAHOUSE (I found a book that said she'd been let go but also implied the author got that information from the Daily Telegraph which attributed "unnamed sources", so not much help). I just wanted to say that it was refreshing to read such an organized, thoughtful description of an issue, and I admire your writing skills. Welcome to Wikipedia. Schazjmd (talk) 01:33, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you! I try my best with what I have :) I hope my writing skills will be even better in the future! --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 02:07, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

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Hi Ineffablebookkeeper! You created a thread called Struggling with impartiality in Geisha article at Wikipedia:Teahouse, but it has been archived because there was no discussion for a few days. You can still find the archived discussion here. If you have any additional questions that weren't answered then, please create a new thread.

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After 2019

You just restored a mistake, Google Cache is temporary and not a suitable archive link. Please restore my correction. -- 78.24.21.86 (talk) 17:36, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Terribly sorry - as per WP:REVERT, I simply defaulted back to the last edit before the vandalism en masse began. I'll correct the archival link now. Thank you. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 20:26, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

My edit at Ukiyo/a response to your comments

Hello, this is a response to the message you left on my Talk page.

I mistakenly deleted that section of text at the article Ukiyo, I had only intended to move it during the copy-edit. I edit with the intention/goal of improving wikipedia. I lean towards inclusionism, as a believe my pattern of editting shows. Flagrant hysterical curious (talk) 23:10, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

@Flagrant hysterical curious: Do you mind if I chime in here? If you take the time to leave an edit summary each and every time you make a change, it will help reinforce what you've done and you'll be less likely to be confused or uncertain (and so will we). Dawnseeker2000 23:33, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't think it needed moving, personally. Dawnseeker has the right of it; how am I supposed to know how genuine your edits are if you don't leave an edit summary? I had to go into your user talk page, and seeing the slew of comments people have left in the past, all I could summise was that you are a troll.
All your pattern of editing shows me is that you don't leave summaries on any changes you make, either. How am I supposed to know how genuine you are, when all the evidence I've got is a list of people on your talk page calling you out for previous edits they couldn't make head nor tail of? Leave a summary if you really wish to improve Wikipedia, at least then I'd know what you were aiming for. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 14:00, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you!

WikiProject Japan Barnstar 2.0
You have done outstanding work on improving Geisha thus far! I sincerely hope you take it all the way to Good article (and beyond)! Please, keep up the great contributions!!! –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 20:27, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
as a secondary note, if you fancy nominating this article, drop me a ping, and I'll review it. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:43, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Thank you! I already had it checked against the B-class criteria a while back - I saw it had been rated, but no feedback was given. Referencing is the one criteria that hasn't been met, but I think the entire thing needs a good re-write.
It's clear that some editors are copying in from the Japanese article, some are tapping out common misconceptions in good faith, and some sections should really be their own articles. I've copied the whole thing into my sandbox for a re-write, but it's not quite ready to see the light of day; however, when it is, I'll ask for feedback on it.
If you'd like to review the article as it currently stands, though, I'd welcome any feedback, as I have a tendency not to be as ruthless at trimming articles as some people are. Thank you again! :) --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 15:36, 13 September 2019 (UTC)


You deleted an image I added to Oiran

Yes, the file I added included appeared to be a duplicate of a photo already in the article. I added the media in the hopes that editors would become aware of the near-duplicate media and that it would lead to improvements (perhaps some type of merge or a technique I am unaware of). Each file has different text and different pages that use it. One is cropped. (Flagrant hysterical curious (talk) 23:12, 24 October 2019 (UTC))

If you wanted to discuss the use of a duplicate-but-slightly-different image, you should have done this on the actual Talk page, instead of adding it and hoping that something would get done.
The Talk page is there for those sorts of topics; hey, I noticed there's two copies of this one image, one of them is slightly different, is there any way we could merge the two? Simply adding it to the page in the hopes that something will get done is poor and shoddy editing, and it's unhelpful - both for the page (I'm really not on Wikipedia all the time to keep track of these pages!) and for you, since you've been blocked from editing...more times than I've consumed a tub of Ben and Jerry's in one sitting.
You seem to veer away from applying more than the most basic of editing tools in the hopes that someone comes along and fixes up your slapdash messes - more than that, you seem to be under the impression that your edits are more helpful than harmful.
I don't think this is the case; I appreciate that you've started leaving more edit summaries on your edits, because this has been a much larger issue for you, but either you take a steep learning curve into how to be a good Wikipedia editor, or - and this is what I'm going to do - I ask that you be banned from editing, as I feel this is the best step to take.
Many good and decent editors have left good, decent and honest advice in regards to how you can improve your editing here. I wish I understood your motivations for editing as they really don't seem to be trollish anymore, which leaves me stumped. I can only ask that you either stop or improve. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 01:27, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

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Your welcome cleanup at Kimono

Thank you for your work on that page. There's an anonymous editor from the UK who has been somewhat ... obsessive, perhaps? ... about certain Japanese terms, even over on Wiktionary where I'm more active, and the [[Kimono]] page was one target of their attentions.

I noticed in this edit of yours that you'd commented out a block of citations, out of concern that you weren't sure what they were. Those are all monolingual Japanese dictionaries added as citations for the definition. I'd added those in part in a defensive move, to try to keep the anon from trying to unilaterally re-define what kimono means. Other interactions have made clear that they don't really understand Japanese at all, and citations have been somewhat successful in getting them to back down.

(FWIW, the 着 ki portion of the term essentially means "wearing", as the stem of the verb 着る kiru meaning "to wear (clothing)", but specifically on the upper body. One cannot say kiru for trousers or socks, for instance.)

In your HTML comment, you also stated that "they [the citations] need re-writing". I'm not sure what kind of re-writing would be needed, but I'm happy to help if and when I can.

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:26, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for, well, the thank you's! It's very kind of you.
The citations thing is really just a formatting issue - I checked over at the (unofficial but still good) Wikipedia discord server, and those citation formats are from a time before the cite plugin was added to Wikipedia. I don't think it's obligatory to re-write old citation formats into the new format, but I think it's definitely recommended? At the very least - it makes editing the article a little easier on whomever comes next.
Thank you for pointing out that "needs re-writing" wasn't clear; I'll go and add a caveat on the Talk page later.
I did comment those out, mostly for the old formatting - I didn't want to get rid of them, but I was honestly too knackered to go and re-write them at the time(!). I've left a few other hidden comments down the page, and on [[Geisha]] as well, mostly for things that I wanted to move, add in, or re-write, but had no time to actually do.
And thank you for confirming that kiru actually is something like "to wear on the shoulders" - I'd read that in Liza Dalby's Kimono: Fashioning Culture, but seeing as I don't actually own that book (and really rather should), I had to make do with internet sources that simply cited it as "to wear". I figured at the very least it'd be accurate enough for the first pass of the lead paragraph. Actually, let me see if I can find the ebook and what it says - I can shove that better citation in quickly enough.
Also - I didn't actually know there was a slightly zealous editor for this page - could you point me to at least their User page, so I can recognise them in the future? I have a tendency to check my watchlist mostly at 11pm when I should really be sleeping, so little details of "oh that's so-and-so" pass me by.
Anyway - many thanks once again. I've seen your edits around and about the page, and truly, all help is appreciated. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 22:52, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Hi, there's no username, as this problematic user has refused to create an account for many years. I run into them from time to time in the course of my own edit patrolling. They have a particular interest in magic, mythology, and the supernatural, as well as Japan and the Japanese language; however, they have demonstrated no understanding of Japanese, and consistently make the same kinds of mistakes. In addition, their IP consistently resolves to somewhere in the UK. A registered user posted a thread on my talk page over on Wiktionary, explaining that this anonymous user is his autistic cousin. For some examples of related IP addresses, look through the Kimono page's history for anon edits that I've reverted. Not all of them are this user, but the ones resolving to the UK are very likely this one.
HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:41, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Ah, I'll keep an eye out, then. They don't seem to be malicious, but I'll take my time to explain thoroughly if an issue comes up - thank you again. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 22:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Happy Holidays

Hello Ineffablebookkeeper: Enjoy the holiday season, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, DBigXrayᗙ Happy Holidays! 18:22, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Spread the WikiLove; use {{subst:Season's Greetings1}} to send this message

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Teahouse talkback: you've got messages!

Hello, Ineffablebookkeeper/Archive 1. Your question has been answered at the Teahouse Q&A board. Feel free to reply there!
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Hi Ineffablebookkeeper! The thread you created at the Wikipedia:Teahouse, Recurring issues with an article and its subject recurring again - not sure what to do, has been archived because there was no discussion for a few days. You can still find the archived discussion here. If you have any additional questions that weren't answered then, please feel free to create a new thread.


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MOS:FOREIGNITALIC

Hallo, thank you for your message. The way the MOS:FOREIGNITALIC is specified is that if the word does not appear in a standard English dictionary, it gets italicised. I might miss some words that have entered general English-language usage, but most Japanese words and terms on Wikipedia are non-English and fall under the policy. Thank you and happy editing. Gryffindor (talk) 01:07, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

My apologies

I'm rather upset with my memory for not recognizing how long you've been trying to help on the Fiona Graham article. Sorry for that and if my comment sounded in any way bad. Really appreciate you trying get Graham to understand how Wikipedia works and the best way for her to work with editors, not demand things of editors. I hope one day she'll get it. Ravensfire (talk) 18:57, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Oh, please don't worry about it, you have nothing to apologise for - I didn't wanna come across like I'd offered a as-neutral-as-possible response to Graham and then on the next comment rip her to shreds with the sockpuppet investigation. I included the bit about being at the end of the tether because of this - there's some language I used in the investigation statement that I wasn't necessarily as keen to endorse now with hindsight changed my mind, I've just seen the dispute resolution noticeboard post. I now have an actual headache, and I'm going to go drink some wine and wait for this all to blow over. Hope you're having a fun evening! :') --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 22:16, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Teahouse talkback: you've got messages!

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Edits on Churchill's Racial views

I am sure you know the article is in very poor state, just look at how sources are lacking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Knoterification (talk • contribs) 19:18, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Then either point out on the Talk page which parts of the article need improving, or WP:BEBOLD and find some more reputable sources yourself. As it stands - no matter what state the article is in, section blanking and content removal isn't how articles get fixed on Wikipedia. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 20:13, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

WP:BLP noticeboard new Option 1E

Thanks for your comments regarding this option, it is still a work in progress, as far as I am concerned, I am more concerned in getting it right. I have never created a RfC or an alternative proposal on any Wikipedia Board before. I will notify everybody tomorrow or sunday, but if you have any further recommendations I would be interested. I log out now as soon as it is possible for me to do and hope tomorrow to check the secondary sources ...folks keep telling me for years on Wikipedia that they are more important than facts. ~ BOD ~ TALK 00:39, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

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Kasuri surname

A short while ago you stated there is no article on Wikipedia about Kasuri as surname. Please check again and there are many other surnames on Wikipedia that you may have never even heard but doesn't mean they are not common in some areas. The surname is very common in my city the city of Kasur in Pakistan and I have to give you an example such as the surname Kandhari have you ever heard of it? Thanks --Maligbro1223 (talk) 17:54, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

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A cup of coffee for you!

You probably need it after your massive improvement to Oiran John B123 (talk) 20:26, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

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Geisha

Hello, thanks for reaching out on my talk page earlier today! Concerning the Geisha article and the discussion of sex work vs. prostitution, the reason I strongly prefer the term 'prostitution' is threefold. First and most importantly, it is simply more correct. The term 'sex work' is a relatively modern term that encompasses far more than prostitution - pornography, phone sex, cybersex, and what not - much of which didn't exist in until they were enabled by modern technology. Prostitution is more specific, and in most cases when people think of geishas or others they are thinking of prostitution as such and not pornography or other forms of sex work. 'Prostitution' is still a correct and meaningful term even if it may have worse connotations to some people than 'sex work' (I personally don't see a huge difference in connotation but I could see how some would).

Secondly, the term 'prostitution' is far more common and widely understood than 'sex work' which only came into existence in the last few decades and is still gets only a small fraction of the use of 'prostitution' (for evidence of this see a comparison on Google Ngrams). Lastly, I checked and the article in question was using 'prostitution' until just recently it was switched, so I don't think there's any harm in switching it back.

Thanks! --DrCruse (talk) 22:46, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Geisha

Hello, thanks for reaching out on my talk page earlier today! Concerning the Geisha article and the discussion of sex work vs. prostitution, the reason I strongly prefer the term 'prostitution' is threefold. First and most importantly, it is simply more correct. The term 'sex work' is a relatively modern term that encompasses far more than prostitution - pornography, phone sex, cybersex, and what not - much of which didn't exist in until they were enabled by modern technology. Prostitution is more specific, and in most cases when people think of geishas or others they are thinking of prostitution as such and not pornography or other forms of sex work. 'Prostitution' is still a correct and meaningful term even if it may have worse connotations to some people than 'sex work' (I personally don't see a huge difference in connotation but I could see how some would).

Secondly, the term 'prostitution' is far more common and widely understood than 'sex work' which only came into existence in the last few decades and is still gets only a small fraction of the use of 'prostitution' (for evidence of this see a comparison on Google Ngrams). Lastly, I checked and the article in question was using 'prostitution' until just recently it was switched, so I don't think there's any harm in switching it back.

Thanks! --DrCruse (talk) 22:46, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion declined: Renewal Christian Centre

Hello Ineffablebookkeeper. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Renewal Christian Centre, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Renewal Christian Centre closed as keep, so this article is ineligible for A7 per Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Pages that have survived deletion discussions. Thank you. Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:57, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Ah - terribly sorry, I didn't know that it had pteviously been nominated. Apologies -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 09:56, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: Renewal Christian Centre

Hello Ineffablebookkeeper. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Renewal Christian Centre, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Renewal Christian Centre closed as keep, so this article is ineligible for A7 per Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Pages that have survived deletion discussions. Thank you. Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:57, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Ah - terribly sorry, I didn't know that it had pteviously been nominated. Apologies -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 09:56, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

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Your draft article, Draft:Traditional Japanese hairstyles

Hello, Ineffablebookkeeper. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Traditional Japanese hairstyles".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. If you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz Read! Talk! 14:52, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Traditional Japanese hairstyles

Hello, Ineffablebookkeeper. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Traditional Japanese hairstyles".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. If you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz Read! Talk! 14:52, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Re: Edit over at Oiran

Thanks for your message. In my case, I saw that the shinzo were already defined in the earlier part of the sentence as apprentices, and the portion I deleted just repeated that. Also, it seemed that portion was placed on the last part of the sentence without the period being removed. I was just reading through the article to refresh my memory on another subject altogether, though the oiran were part of it. Alphapeta (talk) 09:08, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Not a problem - I didn't realise the information had been repeated. Thank you! -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 12:05, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

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Re: Edit over at Oiran

Thanks for your message. In my case, I saw that the shinzo were already defined in the earlier part of the sentence as apprentices, and the portion I deleted just repeated that. Also, it seemed that portion was placed on the last part of the sentence without the period being removed. I was just reading through the article to refresh my memory on another subject altogether, though the oiran were part of it. Alphapeta (talk) 09:08, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Not a problem - I didn't realise the information had been repeated. Thank you! -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 12:05, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you!

The Original Barnstar
Thanks for your continued improvement of Japan related article. John B123 (talk) 12:59, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you!

The Original Barnstar
Thanks for your continued improvement of Japan related article. John B123 (talk) 12:59, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

>>>Edits over at Geisha

First of all, I changed it the other way, from "post-war" to "after the war", not the other way round. If it just seems "snipey" (?!) to you, I think I can see from those two examples of your writing that you don't have a fast grip on English usage yourself, and that might explain your mistaken perception. Second of all, I changed it because it is ungrammatical slang, and an encyclopaedia is supposed to stick to standard usage, for clarity's sake if nothing else. It is ungrammatical because "post-war" is an adjective, never an adverb (as it was being used in Geisha; you can have a post-war thing, but you cannot *do a thing post-war), and slang because it is more the kind of rubbish that you hear from guys trying to sound "cool" and who are too ignorant to realize that, actually, they only make themselves sound uneducated by talking like that, than the kind of text that you would expect in an encyclopaedia. Furthermore, "WW2" is a colloquial abbreviation for "World War II" or "the Second World War". It is fine for history lecture notes or a newspaper headline perhaps, but it has no place in what is supposed to be a well written encyclopaedia article. That's why I zapped the two occurrences of "WW2".

You may have noticed that I left the odd occurrence of "post-war", where it was being used as an adjective. That is the proper usage. There is never anything "pointless" about my grammatical edits.

And you can't just write any old codswallop here (and that word wouldn't be acceptable in the article space, of course). Kelisi (talk) 22:10, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

>>>Edits over at Geisha

First of all, I changed it the other way, from "post-war" to "after the war", not the other way round. If it just seems "snipey" (?!) to you, I think I can see from those two examples of your writing that you don't have a fast grip on English usage yourself, and that might explain your mistaken perception. Second of all, I changed it because it is ungrammatical slang, and an encyclopaedia is supposed to stick to standard usage, for clarity's sake if nothing else. It is ungrammatical because "post-war" is an adjective, never an adverb (as it was being used in Geisha; you can have a post-war thing, but you cannot *do a thing post-war), and slang because it is more the kind of rubbish that you hear from guys trying to sound "cool" and who are too ignorant to realize that, actually, they only make themselves sound uneducated by talking like that, than the kind of text that you would expect in an encyclopaedia. Furthermore, "WW2" is a colloquial abbreviation for "World War II" or "the Second World War". It is fine for history lecture notes or a newspaper headline perhaps, but it has no place in what is supposed to be a well written encyclopaedia article. That's why I zapped the two occurrences of "WW2".

You may have noticed that I left the odd occurrence of "post-war", where it was being used as an adjective. That is the proper usage. There is never anything "pointless" about my grammatical edits.

And you can't just write any old codswallop here (and that word wouldn't be acceptable in the article space, of course). Kelisi (talk) 22:10, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

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Language parameters

Just to answer your question of "where do these pop up from?", they are automatically inserted by the citation tool in the Visual Editor (and the citation toolbar in the source editor, I believe) when automatically creating a citation from a URL. I think it just pulls from the source's language metadata. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:06, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Ahhh, that's where they come from. Apparently, it's not actually a policy to remove them - because there's not actually a policy for their inclusion, or removal. It's literally just, as I understand it, yeah, you can put it in, but it won't display anywhere. But, according to MJL, it's really useful for editors from our sister projects in other languages. Maybe it should be put down as a policy for use? --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 17:13, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Removed other editor's entry

You have removed my entry at WP:Teahouse#Formatting my first entry! in this edit: Special:Diff/1000973820. --CiaPan (talk) 19:12, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Hey - I'm sorry, I was responding to another editor, it came up as an edit conflict, and honestly, I fucked up on the 'choose which bit to publish' thing. It's a confusing tool for resolving edit conflicts, or at least, I find it difficult to figure out. I'm really sorry! It wasn't intentional. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 22:16, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

No 'Edit' links at sections of your Talk page

Did you made any magic trick on your talk page? I can't see [edit] links at sections' headers here, which I normally see on other Talk pages.
I can not see a 'Start a new section' link among head links, either, although I can see it (and use it) on other Talk pages. --CiaPan (talk) 20:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

I can't see it either, man, I don't know what's up here. I removed my archive earlier today because I do not think I installed that buddy correctly, and that may have just shaken things up in a way I don't know how. I'll look into it. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 22:16, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Are you stalking me?

I saw you responding to my comment on List of Japanese deities, and I’m suspecting you are hounding. CycoMa (talk) 04:26, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

I did get curious and have a look down your recent edits, yeah. But, in the interests of not actually engaging in hounding, I left it at a suggestion on the Talk page for List of Japanese deities. As someone mildly interested in Christianity, I thought I'd suggest that the classification of major and minor deities might be a canonical one, rather than a preference one - as these things often are.--Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 11:02, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

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Screen reader and double spaces

Hey,

Saw your comment on ANI and just wondering two things:

1. Is it only at the beginning of a line that double spacing causes trouble with a screen reader? I assume so, otherwise "old school" sentence structure would be disastrous, which I normally use.

2. Is that a problem specific to wiki or across the internet/computer. As in, should I be more aware of double spaces only here or across all electronic writing?

Thanks,

Slywriter (talk) 03:52, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Hiya - I can't find the relevant policy page right now, but seemingly, it's just the existence of double spaces within a sentence; similar to double paragraph breaks, IIRC, they don't encode correctly. I'm not sure if it's the case for all websites and web pages, but I'm certain I remember reading it as part of Wikipedia's accessibility policy somewhere. I think it's a holdover from old typewriter conventions?
Again - really sorry I can't seem to find the relevant article on this at the minute. I've just been going round Wikipedia, getting rid of double spaces and adding language tags to articles to (hopefully) improve accessibility. I hope this helps! --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 13:32, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
No worries. I wasnt looking for a specific policy, though I will do some digging around wikipedia and the web about the issue. It is absolutely a throwback to typewriters but also drilled into the minds of those who first learned computers from teachers who were used to typewriters. Regardless, now that I am aware, I'll certainly try and break the habit when writing for public consumption. Slywriter (talk) 17:14, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Tomb Raider (2018 film) and {{lang}} templates

Hello. I noticed a while back you added a bunch of {{lang}} templates to the plot section. I've removed them as MOS:FOREIGNITALIC notes we don't use them for proper nouns like the ones in the plot summary. Just a heads-up for future edits. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 01:58, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Hiya - I'm being deeply stupid here, so forgive me, but - I added |italic=no to the end of the lang templates so that they'd render as unitalicised text, but would be pronounced properly by a screenreader. Is that a problem as well? I would've thought that it wouldn't violate MOS. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 11:27, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Might be me being stupid here. The point of the FOREIGNITALIC stuff is to make sure it's not jarring when you're using casual foreign terms, but it seems like the lang templates in certain browsers deliberately sets off the text (which is the only reason I noticed it in the first place)—so the text was weirdly a different typeface and looked bizarre in the plot summary... but it doesn't seem to do it on all the browsers and OS configurations I've tried, so I guess it's a specific setting. So I dunno. I hate it aesthetically because it looks like someone mad-libbed the text, but at the same times that's the point of the templates. I guess disregard. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:11, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Aha, don't worry! I think on my other (very dead at the minute) laptop, it does display differently. It's not a problem! It does look like a ransom note cut out of a newspaper at times, lmao. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 21:10, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Emakimono

Thanks for your message. After noticing your edits of some of my earlier contributions to the Emakimono article, I started adding the tags to my contributions as I went along. What I was doing the other day was fixing up some of my other earlier contributions that hadn't yet been tagged. My contributions are translations from the equivalent article on French Wikipedia. Although I can read and speak French well enough to translate it with assistance from Google translate, I can't read or speak Japanese. Your edits were therefore very enlightening. You may have noticed that the French content on the subject of emakimono is far more comprehensive than the English content, and that my contributions contemplate future translations of other French articles on specific emakimono. In the fullness of time, I hope to translate those articles as well. Previously, I've translated French articles about Japanese whisky, and at some point I will go back and tag them as well. Bahnfrend (talk) 14:07, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I had no idea the French article was more well-developed than the English language one - thank you for pointing it out! I have to say, I don't read or speak Japanese either - though I should, seeing as it's the area of my actual work(!). Thank you for your valuable work in translating the corresponding articles on French Wikipedia back to English Wikipedia - it's much appreciated :) --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 17:35, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

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Recent edit reversion

In this edit here, I reverted some information that appears to be a violation of our copyright policy.

I provided a brief summary of the problem in the edit summary, which should be visible just below my name. You can also click on the "view history" tab in the article to see the recent history of the article. This should be an edit with my name, and a parenthetical comment explaining why your edit was reverted. If that information is not sufficient to explain the situation, please ask.

I do occasionally make mistakes. We get hundreds of reports of potential copyright violations every week, and sometimes there are false positives, for a variety of reasons. (Perhaps the material was moved from another Wikipedia article, or the material was properly licensed but the license information was not obvious, or the material is in the public domain but I didn't realize it was public domain, and there can be other situations generating a report to our Copy Patrol tool that turn out not to be actual copyright violations.) If you think my edit was mistaken, please politely let me know and I will investigate. S Philbrick(Talk) 13:51, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Ah, apologies! I aimed to give the article a good copyediting - I had no idea the material was a copyright vio to begin with, and if I had, I would've removed it. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 14:50, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Kouta (music) moved to draftspace

An article you recently created, Kouta (music), is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. Inexpiable (talk) 15:43, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Words as words vs emphasis

Thank you for your comments on He (pronoun), Ineffablebookkeeper. My reading of the Manual of Style is that this should be italics, not emphasis.--Brett (talk) 18:19, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi - I didn't realise the Manual of Style specifically covered words as words - you learn something new every day. Are you sure it would still read right for someone with a screenreader? As someone else pointed out to me regarding {{transl}} and language tags, if the emphasis is there for the seeing reader, is it equally there for the screenreader? I'd appreciate the help. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 18:51, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't know much about screen readers, so I'm just following the guidelines and doing the best I can. Given your lack of awareness of the MOS, your edit summary on He (pronoun) looks a bit uncharitable. Let's assume good faith and be kind to each other. --Brett (talk) 21:17, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
It does, and I'm sorry - I just put a lot of work into making articles more accessible, and sometimes it feels like no-one else thinks to include it when they think about improving an article. I'll try to keep spreading the word about accessibility more civil in the future. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

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Ikiga page

The citations speak for themselves on the criticism section that I have included. Your point that you cannot find it on another page substantiates my claim that the edit is original material for Wikimedia.. Thankyou Green light3 (talk) 11:39, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Green light3 appears to be a vandal. He is adding original research to articles at Blue Zones and removing reliable content, and ruining articles by destroying citation formatting. If it continues I will report this user. Psychologist Guy (talk)

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Article Jean-Max Albert

Bonjour. Sorry I misunderstood the lang tag function and position. It seems that you’ve found someone with the time, the energy etc… I thank you very much for that time and energy…. and the native grasp of English that I’m missing… I’m curious concerning what you mean by « vaguely promotional » : isn’t any article about an artist or an art work, even negative, (which is rare nowadays), somehow promotional ? And, don’t we ask for citations? A propos, I might have made a mistake in removing the maintenance template (Multiple issues; Essay like; Like resume) that was posted on the article ? Thanks again, all this helps me very much for a next article I’m working on. With my best regards F.While (talk) 08:32, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Heya - please don't feel bad for misunderstanding the lang tag function, that was probably my fault for not explaining it correctly! I should've posted on the Talk page.
As for "vaguely promotional" - the article's sources are fine, and I don't think you were wrong to remove the maintenance tags. What I picked up on was, I think, minor word choices and phrasing choices here and there - I can't find a precise example, but it's more, it sounds like the artist describing their work than some uninvolved editor taking the artist's description and then re-constituting that for Wikipedia.
I don't know if that makes sense - it likely doesn't, and I wish I could explain it better. If you want a better explanation, you could perhaps ask the kind folk over at the WP:TEAHOUSE, who can likely describe what vaguely promotional language might look like? Again - sorry I'm unable to do it myself(!) -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 10:03, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Graham's latest editor

Think it's worth taking to here? Everything's really too stale, just general behavior and Graham's usual tendency is to stop editing for a while, return and repeat every 3-4 months. Not 100% sure it's worth the time. Ravensfire (talk) 00:47, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, there has to be some kind of further step we can take beyond a sockpuppet investigation. This has been going on for literally over a decade, and a sockpuppet investigation doesn't feel like enough, but I have absolutely no idea what kind of further steps we could take. Proper COI editing guidelines have been laid down, we've hashed over the same issues more than four times over 10 years, and if this is gonna be another rinse and repeat, something must be done to ensure this isn't going to be another decade of the same. Any thoughts? -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 00:58, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Ineffablebookkeeper, I don't have a good answer to that. I track a couple of highly active sockmasters in India film/TV related articles and they have zero concern about being blocked, create a new account and continue on. Since they're on a large IP, that's tough to block. Part of what makes Graham so difficult is she'll disappear for 6 months or more and then come back all innocent and no... I don't know this person. Nope!. I wouldn't mind ECP on the article, but she'll still fill up the article talk page, help desk and BLPN, just like she's done time and time before. And always, always, she's never ever the bad person. It's annoying. Ravensfire (talk) 23:11, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
ECP? What's that? Also, I seem to remember something a while back about Graham's MO partially presenting as "user whose first language isn't English, certainly not", when to be honest, mostly every time it's her. I suppose a checkuser against other previously-checkusered sockpuppets might be something, if it's possible? --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 23:16, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

This is Fiona Graham. Perhaps you could explain to me exactly what your problem is. I have never edited Wikipedia in my life. I do not even know how to. I have many fans, many students, many supporters on social media, many customers who visit our geisha house and geisha district, and many volunteers who help with our geisha district and the charity program we have for our young geisha. Some of them try to correct the information on Wikipedia that they can see is wrong. That does not mean they are sock puppets. I am not even exactly sure what a sock puppet is, but if you are accusing me of creating accounts in order to edit myself, then no, I have never done that. If you are saying that some people edit from the IP address of the Fukagawa Geisha Association then that is quite possible. That doesn't mean they are sock puppets either. What is important is that the information that is added to the page is always from valid sources and you keep removing it for no reason!! Perhaps you could explain exactly what it is that makes you remove recent valid information year after year after year.

Ms Graham, it has been explained to you time and time again that the references added to your article are removed because they do not meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines.
My "problem" is that your fans, students, supporters, customers, whoever, do not follow these guidelines, and then routinely make the same complaint - "valid information is being removed". You can read the guidelines here.
Mostly every single editor approaching your page to add information which then later gets removed for verifiability problems does so with a WP:BATTLEGROUND approach - no editor seems to wish to discuss and take note from others about how they can improve their edits, and what other sources they could find, should they wish to improve the article in line with Wikipedian policy.
I am a busy person; yours is not the only article I edit. However, yours is the only article I edit where these issues have reliably cropped up, like clockwork, for more than a decade.
Wikipedia doesn't exist to keep your fans updated on your work; we only write what we can verifiably source ourselves, and primary sources for biographies of living persons (BLPs) are not something an article can stand on alone.
If you wish for your supporters, or whoever edits your article, to improve it, alongside other editors, then the advice that has been provided for the past handful of years remains the same - read thr policies, and work with us, not against us. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 12:19, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Infoboxes

Please do not format placenames as a list in infoboxes. There is guidance on format at Template:Infobox person and Template:Infobox royalty. DrKay (talk) 16:51, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry - didn't know a guideline existed! -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 16:54, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

FYI

This may be of interest. It's an IP at the Teahouse claiming to be Fiona Graham. It's a bit hard to parse...--- Possibly (talk) 04:52, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Oh god. Oh god. Not another one. Please, God, not another one -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 09:39, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
At least she was up front that it was Graham, usually she'll try to pose as an uninterested bystander. BTW - [1] was interesting, especially the Sept 3 edit. Ravensfire (talk) 16:55, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Ooh. I knew she'd done an AMA, but I didn't know she'd made an account. Thank you for pointing that out to me. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 17:13, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
"And her instagram account says she is married too. If I was cheating geisha and customers and working illegally I would keep a low profile too."
Wow. That's just...it is not by any means illegal to be married as a geisha, and nor did I ever see evidence that Kimicho was working as a furisode-san and calling herself a geisha. Christ, those rumours that she got chased out of the profession take on a different flavour now, don't they? -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 17:17, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
That's kinda what I was thinking, especially the relentless self-promotion. The article says she "left" the association, and that's generally supported by sources, but there may also be enough to note that the local association had certain complaints which lead to her leaving. I realize that several of the blog posts have a pretty tilted POV against Graham, but several sources noted those complaints and I think that's relevant to NPOV. I'm gonna dig some more when I have some spare time.
Also, just in case you want to see the level of craziness, User_talk:Ravensfire/Graham#Trips_to_drama_boards. I think I'm going to clean that section up some, put it in a separate page and post that to the current discussion. Ravensfire (talk) 17:35, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ravensfire: - I didn't know you'd collated all the posts under that section; thank you, that's very helpful. Be sure to include the (now archived) sockpuppet discussions under FiG8, I believe? -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 18:09, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Just put it together, to be honest. Compile job for work was taking stupidly long (and failed NOT BECAUSE I FAT-FINGERED SOMETHING!). Added the Fig8 archive link in the top section plus Chriss1991 SPI plus summary for each one. Ravensfire (talk) 18:17, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Infobox prepared food

Hiya, thank you for all your edits and the adding of transl/Nihongo templates!
However about https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wasanbon&diff=1020000385&oldid=993204588 : It looks like adding them to the name= of the prepared food infobox breaks the Wikibook part of the template. For what it's worth the template has a name_lang parameter, which seems to not do anything 8ya (talk • contribs) 15:04, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Oh, gosh - so sorry. Not every infobox I've edited seemed to have a native name lang parameter, but I'll be sure to add it in future. Thank you! -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 15:58, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
No need to be sorry, not like that link has any use ^^ Tbh not even sure what even the point of that parameter is though, since it changes nothing and cannot be seen. But you're welcome! 8ya (talk • contribs) 00:51, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
@8ya: - ah, there's one I can answer; for users with screenreaders, it ensures it's pronounced correctly. I mean, my English language satnav manages to butcher 'Calais', so you can imagine how mangled other foreign language terms would get without a language tag. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 09:17, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Ah I see, thank you very much! 8ya (talk • contribs) 09:32, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I think we should avoid putting categories before the last heading

Hello, Ineffablebookkeeper. Please have a look at this diff. I think we need to avoid categories before the last heading. My understanding is that they should only be followed by interwiki links, as mentioned in the first paragraph of WP:CREATECAT. At the very least, this causes issues for Wikipedia:WPCleaner. I'd be impressed if no other tools had a problem with this category placement. BernardoSulzbach (talk) 18:45, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Huh. See, I've been putting them in as "Category:[Language] words or phrases" for a *while* now - it was something I noticed in other articles before incorporating it into my practices, so it's not just me who's done it.
I wasn't aware it messed with WPCleaner - terribly sorry. I should note, not every language seems to have a category as such - I've tried putting some in, only to find they don't exist - and as far as I know, there are a *lot* of pages using the category "Japanese words and phrases" in the reason parameter of the italics template.
I can start booting these categories down to the bottom whenever I see them. Looking at the {{Italic title}} template, a "reason" parameter isn't even listed. Terribly sorry for the trouble. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 19:21, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. It's not a huge deal, as WP itself can handle it. I'm sure you're not the first one to do it, but I don't think that we gain a lot from putting a category there instead of just briefly explaining the reason in plain English. I didn't mean to reprimand you, and you have nothing to be sorry for. Happy editing. BernardoSulzbach (talk) 19:51, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Temporary gentlemen

Hi, thanks for your edits on the above article. Just a heads up that you don't need to worry about the double spaces at the start of sentences, they are ignored by the software anyway (thankfully for those of us who learnt to type that way!). See MOS:DOUBLESPACE - Dumelow (talk) 14:03, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I know - force of habit, I tend to remove them anyway(!). Oddly enough, I think it's an old typewriter typing convention? Or at least, that's how I've heard it. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 15:20, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
No worries, I just didn't want you to be wasting your time! Yes, I think so: I belong to the word processor age, but I was taught to type by a former typist so must have picked it up from there - Dumelow (talk) 15:48, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

MOS:WAW

You're making edits like this, which seem to contradict MOS:WAW when identifying words. Am I missing something? Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 23:17, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Ah fuck, you're right. It's not you missing something, it's me. My point of reference was MOS:ACCESS, wherein italics shouldn't be used for emphasis, but in that case, it wasn't emphasis, it was words as words, for which I should've left them as italics. Apologies.
The lang tags, though - though both {{lang}} and {{transl}} encode the same language information into the page, use of [ISO code]-Latn messes up display sometimes, with words enclosed in -Latn tags displaying as a different font to the rest of the page; it's some feature where it thinks it needs to pull from a font the user has that'll display non-Latin text, even if the tag's content in question is in the Latin alphabet anyway.
The size function, I've never seen used elsewhere, and I don't think it needs to be included? First article I've seen using it, actually, and in the interests of uniformity, or my own stupidity, I didn't think they needed to be there. Afaik, foreign language terms don't need to be 10% smaller than the rest of the text. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 12:04, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
All right. I see what you were doing now. Thanks for informing me.
I didn't think you were doing the lang tags wrong. I only considered if the words should be unitalicized. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 23:10, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Not a problem - thank you for leaving me a message and informing me about policy, it means a lot. (I wonder who sized them to 90% in the first place?...) --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 10:22, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

MOS:FOREIGNITALIC in geta (footwear)

Hey, Ineffablebookkeeper, I see you formatted geta with {{lang}} last year (at some point someone redid the ja-Latn with {{transl}}). However, I was able to find an entry for geta in Merriam-Webster Online. I believe, then, that it has failed the rule of thumb for applying MOS:FOREIGNITALIC and should be treated as an English loanword. I removed {{transl}} from around it and zori for the same reason. I thought I should let you know since you did the MOS:LANG formatting originally. —I'llbeyourbeach (talk) 18:21, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah, thank you for letting me know! I watch a number of other pages that likely have those terms on them - I'll be sure to remove the transl tags when I next run into them. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 18:31, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
Thank you so much! That'd be extremely helpful and kind. I did the same in zori's article too. —I'llbeyourbeach (talk) 04:22, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

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MOSPOSS

Please don't make changes to the possessive form as you did here: [2] This is contrary to MOS:POSS. Also please see Help:Edit summary. GA-RT-22 (talk) 17:04, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Ah - terribly sorry. I didn't know that MOS existed. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 17:56, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Edit comments

Hi, if as at De materia medica you're making small formatting changes, i.e. even if you're not making substantial edits, please either mark these as minor (if within the rules for that) or give a brief edit comment (e.g. "tagging languages") as is good practice (and indeed policy), to save other editors from having to check for vandalism. Many thanks, Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:24, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap: - my apologies; I'll be sure to add a brief comment in future, though editing on mobile I'm unable to mark my edits as minor. I appreciate the horror of checking through a watchlist and thinking "oh God, what now"(!) - so I'll change my behaviour going forwards. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 11:01, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
Many thanks! Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:07, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

October 2021

Information icon Hello, I'm Skyerise. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Sacramental bread, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Skyerise (talk) 17:35, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

As you point out, I was mistaken in reading your edit as an addition. The real problem was that the sentence you were editing was off-topic in the etymology section, so I removed it. Feel free to integrate into a more appropriate place in the article. Skyerise (talk) 19:36, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Japanese grammar, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Middle Japanese.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:02, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

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Japanese folklore

Hello my friend can you edit zuijin Page by finding more informations about them??? 2A02:587:1E65:4700:5970:4CDB:3ACC:B947 (talk) 14:22, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Japanese Folklore

Hello my friend can you add more informations about zuijin please??? Giorcat (talk) 14:50, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Halo

"In India the head halo is called {{transl|hi|Prabhamandala}} or {{transl|hi|Siras-cakra}}, while the full body halo is {{transl|hi|Prabhavali}}.<ref>Gopinatha Rao, T. A. (1985). Elements of Hindu Iconography. " - I'd imagine these are Sanskrit in fact. Johnbod (talk) 17:01, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

@Johnbod: - Ah, thank you! I wasn't quite sure whether I was looking at Hindi or Sanskrit. I'll change the ISO code if it hasn't been done so already.--Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 21:07, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Japanese costume article

You didn't actually undo my edit; you just carried on tidying up the article.

While I'm here,

@Ehrenkater: - You're right, furigana would be useful - I think it's possible to combine ruby text templates with {{nihongo}}. All of the items also need reordering alphabetically, as an IP drove-by earlier and added a handful of other entries, I don't think in the right order.
I'm not sure about separate section headings per kana character; I don't think there's ever going to be enough items on the list to warrant it, but more than that, I don't think I've seen that formatting anywhere else, though please correct me if I'm wrong.--Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 12:59, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

No, I haven't seen anything like that, and I agree that it would require more entries to justify it.

As regards the furigana, I agree these are shown in Japanese text as ruby text, but I think for this purpose the hiragana version in parantheses following the kanji might be easier to follow.---Ehrenkater (talk) 13:04, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Maybe - but we do have {{ruby}} at our disposal; it might make it clearer that it's the pronunciation, rather than an alternate spelling.--Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 10:34, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Your thread has been archived

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