This is an archive of past discussions with User:Hordaland. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Hi -- regarding your last edit there, I don't understand what the terms "extrinsic adaptive value" and "intrinsic adaptive value" are supposed to convey, and I doubt that other readers will either. Could you perhaps rewrite or expand that line? Regards, Looie496 (talk) 14:37, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I just don't like those terms. They're nonstandard and they don't make sense -- what is extrinsic or intrinsic about the adaptive value? An adaptive value is a change in the probability of survival. How can a change in the probability of survival be extrinsic or intrinsic? Your edits look perfectly fine to me if only those two bizarre terms are omitted. Regards, Looie496 (talk) 22:43, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Done. But as a patient with very messed up circadian rhythms, I can attest that when they are not in synch, the situation is maladaptive. Like permanent jet lag! - Hordaland (talk) 23:02, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Absolutely. I having no issue at all with talking about the adaptive value of circadian rhythms, only with calling the adaptive value "extrinsic" or "intrinsic". Looie496 (talk) 23:07, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Just wanted to say "Hi". Liked your comment on Christiania vs Kristiania debate, Looks to me like we can use Chr until 1877 and Kr thereafter. ROTFLMAO ! Next we'll have to know the exact time the name changed. I'm in Toronto and was so happy to see your photo of the barn owl, something I've only seen a few times in real life. Very stunning as is the photo. (Ice Explorer (talk) 09:25, 14 November 2009 (UTC))
Norw. Ministry of Defence
Here is the latest development regarding former FSK-commando, Bjørn Sagvolden:
Thanks again for the translation. I'm working on Colonel Nicolai Johan Lohmann Krog, born July 6, 1787 , in Drangedal, Norway to Pastor Andrew Christian Krog (1748-97) and Else Marie Poppe (nee Rogstad, 1755-1828).
There seems to be conflicting information on his birth place and the spelling of his last name so I'm trying to figure it out. I would like to make this article a FA if it's possible. If you'd like to help in any way I could sure use it, but only if this interests you. Below are some of my ramblings on the subject of his birth question. My entire ramblings on him are in my sandbox here User:Ice_Explorer/Sandbox2, feel free to create your own note section and comment anywhere by putting it in ( brackets ).
As the son of a priest and agricultural reformer, he grew up in the Gran rectory in Hadeland,( He was born then moved to Gran ??) one of the best in the country, but was postponed after the death of his father to a military career began in 1801 the military school at Christiania.
Born in Drangedal 6 June 1787.
Need to ask the Priest at Drangedal if he was born there. [1]
Son of Rural Priest Andreas Christian von Krogh and Else Marie Poppe née Rogstad. [4]
Note that his fathers last name was spelled von krogh. Wonder how his last name became spelled Krog ?[4]
Need to ask the Priest about von Krogh name. How did it become Krog ?[1] Below is the Government of Norway site that says his fathers name was von Krogh.
"Nicolai Krog". Oslo: Govenment of Norway. Retrieved 2009-11-13.
Had to laugh at first. I volunteer here and I also volunteer at RAOGK. And this looks more like a RAOGK question than a WP one. Confusing ;-)
Haven't looked at the article yet, much less all the links. I'll probably get back atcha. Don't worry much about spelling changes and even name changes. How many people could write, much less spell, in the 1700s? And the entire 1800s were used to try to turn (written) Danish into Norwegian.
Yes I do have Norwegian ancestors as well as German, Danish, Canadian, British, Indian, Malaysian and a few more I'm sure I don't know about. LOL As for the interest, just curious, ask a question look for an answer. Makes it an adventure don't you think ? (Ice Explorer (talk) 12:55, 16 November 2009 (UTC))
Yup, both Wikipedia and genealogy are adventures. Never ending ones.
Thanks again for helping out. I've moved the discussion over to a section called Hordaland on the main page User:Ice Explorer/Sandbox2, because it's faster then going from page to page. Do you have web references for the entries you made ? I ask simply because if I use any of the information I need to have citations. Sincerely (Ice Explorer (talk) 23:59, 16 November 2009 (UTC))
I found the original book that the guy used for the Norsk Biografisk Leksikon article. It's a online book at the Nasjonalbiblioteket. I screen captured a photo from the book then did some heavy work on it in Photoshop. I think you'll like the results. Let me know what you think. Ooooh there is one bad thing, the book doesn't give me a way to use Google translator. Kinda sad about that as I would have enjoyed using it for the article. They also don't have a easy way to search in the book. Very bad, Project Runeburg is so much better. Anyhoo the book is here. [6]
Dang! I should have remembered that search-results URLs don't work. And now I can't find it again, will keep looking. It was such lovely handwriting, too. - Hordaland (talk) 19:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I just used the title the National Archive used but we can add to it. You used the word for in your title is this not an English word ? Do we want to add an English title somewhere ? I can do that as well. Anyhoo here's what you proposed.
That word "for" is sneaky. Means the same in English and Norwegian so it can't be wrong either way. But I suppose you could replace it with a comma if you'd rather.
I do not like putting the dates 1820-1828 where you have them the 2nd time. The National Archives weren't publishing anything in 1820, least of all on the web. I've removed it above, and I don't think you need a publishing date, but you could use 1998-2009 if you feel you must have something. That's what it says for copyright on the archives pages. Hordaland (talk) 11:50, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Not sure why you don't like the dates in the title. The publishing date can be for 1998-2009 if we use a web cite. If we use a book site I think we should use the date of the book. I'd prefer to use a book cite but it's semantics really. What should the book title, date, publisher be ? (Ice Explorer (talk) 12:07, 20 November 2009 (UTC))
The dates in the title are fine. You had them also as publishing date, but I removed that.
Since it isn't really a book but a bound, handwritten protocoll which you personally have not examined, 'cite web' is correct, as that's where you've seen a transcription. Hordaland (talk) 13:17, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Darn. I thought I tried that & it worked, but now I get Ibsen, too. OK, do it the hard way and then work your magic on the URL. Go to The Digital Archives. Click 1801 in the top blue area. Click on Vis 1801-teljing for heile landet. Where it says Nytt personsøk you want A Førenamn, B er lik, C Nikolay, hit Søk. That search finds 200 people. Now, where it says Nytt personsøk you want A Etternamn, B er lik, C Krog, hit Søk. There you've got him, I hope. Click the link 221886 at the left for the whole family. Hordaland (talk) 13:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Andreas Christian Krog ( b. May 12, 1748 - d. 1797 [7] )(Krogh or von Krogh) I want to find records of his parents and siblings. Was he from Trondheim ?
Nicolai Johan Lohmann Krog born July 6, 1787 (Krogh or von Krogh) Need to find birth in a church book and death at Krist kirkegård. (Ice Explorer (talk) 15:51, 20 November 2009 (UTC))
That's what I was thinking. Very strange, unless he was studying at the University at the same time as working. You did mention that he had a Professor as a witness. It doesn't give his age either. Very strange, all very strange. (Ice Explorer (talk) 11:30, 21 November 2009 (UTC))
Slegten fra 1814 : studier over norsk embedsmandskultur i klassicismens tidsalder 1814-1840
I read Gran, not Gram, but I can't find it named in the text, and there are places named Gran all over the country.
On page 326 is mentioned a portrait of statsraad N. J. Krog, painted by Johannes Flintoe (1786-1870). The paragraph is about the differences in style between Munch and Flintoe.
Giertrud Juel is a nice portrait. Not so stylized look-alike as many paintings long ago. But it is a pastell, not a photo. :-) Hordaland (talk) 21:21, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
When you write a comment within someone else's comment, it is easy to miss it. It's also considered bad form on talk pages. Best to add it at the bottom of the section.
(It's different on a worksheet such as a sandbox, though it can be confusing there, too. BTW it's finally occurred to me that we don't have to sign and date-stamp comments on a worksheet, as I think I've been doing.)
You asked a question above, quite well-hidden within your earlier comment. I'm moving it here:
I answered that in yesterday's comment numbered #2 just above, where Flintoe's name is in bold. It's Flintoe's work that's mentioned in the text, not Munch's. Hordaland (talk) 15:58, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, and also a Peder H. Juell. You found "hos Statsraad Krog" in the "address" column; T.Schiøtt is a medical student, living in the household of the statsraad. Proof that these people were in Oslo in 1832. (Surprising that these fancy people participate in christening the infant of a nobody-name like John Andersen!) Yes, Mrs. Rasmussen is the wife of a Prof., but there may be more than one Prof. Rasmussen.
Christian morals from 200 years ago where much different then today. I also believe the Krog family was a deeply religious one. I'm certain they were brought up in a way that made it very clear that they had a duty and obligation to help people less fortunate. I'm certain we'd have a heart attack if we would have to endure the life they led as I'm sure they would, if they had to live ours.
Re your citation, why does it say "Oslo: Digitalarkivet"? The baby was christened in Christiania, but most of Digitalarkivet is managed from the University in Bergen. Looks like the organizations, DIS and KROA, doing the transcribing are in Oslo/Akershus, but the digital archive (copyright Jan Oldervoll) is in Bergen. Hordaland (talk) 21:54, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Re cite: I'm not always 100% sure of the cite for things and because my Norwegian is awful, I need you help on these things. Just let me know what you think they should be and then I'll change them. (Ice Explorer (talk) 15:17, 22 November 2009 (UTC))
"I'm certain we'd have a heart attack if we would have to endure the life they led as I'm sure they would, if they had to live ours." = a nicely quotable quote. Hordaland (talk) 16:05, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Oh, but that means something else. The one means 'belonging to' (or, here, 'in the name of'); the other means plural. From that page:
"Other governor general’s awards were created to celebrate the arts, literature, humanities, sciences and sports. More than 60 awards and trophies bear the names of governors general."
Just one governor general (one at a time): governor general’s awards
Several governors general: trophies bear the names of governors general
Yes, Governor General's "belonging to" of Norway. That is my meaning. It's a title, a heading, not a word in a sentence referring to many Governors General. I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one, but then again I'm not a Professor of English. : o
On a side note, with the List of Heads of State for Norway in mind. We should try to clean this page up one day. Your thoughts ? (Ice Explorer (talk) 23:48, 22 November 2009 (UTC))
Found this little bit of information about his older sister. They even have a number to call if you'd like more information. Maybe we could ask them for a photo of the head stone ? I think with this bit of information it is almost certain that he was there at the Gran parsonage. Your thoughts ?
After that, we know this is the only parsonage in Norway who has a burial in the garden. Four people are buried here: Frederiche Christiane Krog (b. 26.10.1781, d. 03.11.1806), also Wilhelmine Margarethe 26/10/1781, d. 03/11/1806), Fredrikke Christiane Lassen (f. (f.03.11.1806, d. 8 days old) and Louisa Christiane Lassen (f. 03.11.1806, d. 07.09.1831), as well as her father Wilhelm Cornisch Lassen (f.19.09.1751, d. 17.09.1831). (f.19.09.1751, d. 17/09/1831). [1]
Dåp:H K: Det Ældste Barnet døde 8 dage efter sin Moder blev hjemme Døbt men det andet blev Døbt i Kirken.[2]
"GDS-Hadeland: Døpte i Gran 1804 - 1815" (in Norwegian). Digitalarkivet 2009. Rettar til databasen: GDS-Hadeland. Versjon frå 12.12.2002. Talet på oppslag: 49334 (4 i dag). Retrieved 23 November 2009.
Good find. Your translation says 4 persons and proceeds to name 5 of them :).
Etter det vi kjenner til er dette den eneste prestegården i Norge som har et
gravsted i hagen. Fire personer er gravlagt her: Frederiche Christiane Krog (f.
26.10.1781, d. 03.11.1806), hennes tvillingdøtre Wilhelmine Margarethe
(f.03.11.1806, d. 8 dager gammel) og Fredrikke Christiane Lassen (f.
03.11.1806, d. 07.09.1831), samt hennes svigerfar Wilhelm Cornisch Lassen
(f.19.09.1751, d. 17.09.1831).
Translation: As far as we know, this is the only prestegården in Norway which has a burial place in the garden. Four persons are buried here:
Frederiche Christiane Krog (b. 26.10.1781, d. 03.11.1806),
her twin daughters Wilhelmine Margarethe (b. 03.11.1806, d. 8 days old) and Fredrikke Christiane Lassen (b. 03.11.1806, d. 07.09.1831),
as well as her father-in-law Wilhelm Cornisch Lassen (b.19.09.1751, d. 17.09.1831).
No Louise in that paragraph -- where'd she come from?
And strange that the living twin and her grandfather died 10 days apart - was there a flu epidemic in 1831?
It also says: Wilhelm C. Lassen var meget glad i prestegårdshagen.... Han
søkte ved Kongelig resolusjon om å bli gravlagt i hagen. WCL loved the prestegård's garden.... He applied for a royal resolution allowing him to be buried in the garden.
Next find:
03 November 1806
Child: Wilhelmine Magrethe - twin
Father: Personelle Capelan Hr Alberth Lassen
Mother: Madame Frederikke Christiane Lassen, nee Krog
Child: Frederikke Christiane
Father: Personelle Capellan Hr Alberth Lassen
Mother: Madame Frederikke Christiane Lassen født Krog
Witnesses: Provstinde Else Marie Krog, Jomfrue (virgin/maiden) Torine Catharine Krog, Sorenskriver Meydell, Leutenant Carl von Berg, Provst Wilhelm Cornix Lassen
Remarks: Det Ældste Barnet døde 8 dage efter sin Moder blev hjemme Døbt men det andet blev Døbt i Kirken The older child died 8 days after her mother's death (and) was home-christened, but the other was christened in the church
I found some photos here. "Search Krog". www.digitaltmuseum.no. Retrieved 24 November 2009.
Bad news is some of the photos are not shown, just a description. They are teasing us. I wonder if it would be possible to find out what museum each photo is at and if it is on display ? (Ice Explorer (talk) 16:34, 24 November 2009 (UTC))
Looked at most of them of people. Several Krogs, none of them Nicolai. Of the blank ones, the first of those is of Nicolai: NF.00607-734 It's at Norsk Folkemuseum and just hasn't been digitalized yet, looks like. Also NF.00607-736 is of Nicolai. Also NF.00607-733, NF.00607-731, and NF.00607-732. Hordaland (talk) 17:49, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
They have a page where you can order photo's. Interesting, wonder how that works and what are the conditions and cost ? [3]
There is something going on with the Bishop of Bergen. So many people have the last name Krogh, Krog come from the cathedral school. I was wondering if they took his last name or something like that. Anyhoo, I need to find out more about this. Can you please translate this for me. There's a cookie in it for you. ( smile )
BISKOP MATHIAS BONSACH KROGH,
fød 1754 paa Vadsø. 1781 Præst i Senjens Provsti. 1799 til Ør-landet. 1804 første Biskop over Nordlandene og Finmarken (var til denne Tid forenet med T.hjems Bispesto<l). Boede i Alstad-houg hvortil han i 1804 ogsaa blev Sognepræst, men derfra entle-diget 1812. 1810 Ridder af Dannebrog, 1815 ditto af Nordstjer-nen for hans Fortjenester af Skolevæsenet og Fattigforsørgelsen i hans Embedsdistrikt. Storthingsmand 1815—16. Døde 2. Sept. 1828. Under Biskopens hyppige og langvarige Reiser, sees Provst Thaulow paa Stadsbygden — 1803—08 — at have vikareret for ham paa Ørlandet. Biskopen var ofte i Stadsb. Præstegaard under hans Reiser til Trondhjem, hvor han ofte færdedes.
I have problems getting translation of these Evangelical Lutheran titles right. I think the lowest position with theology exam is Kapellan=Chaplain(?). Next is Sokneprest/Sognepræst, minister for a (sub-)parish. Prest/Præst = minister in Lutheran Church, no? A Provst/Prost is in charge of a provsti/prosti, a main parish including several sub-parishes. A Biskop is in charge of a Bispedømme=Bispestol = bishopric or diocese. Hope that is correct.
born 1754 in Vadsø. 1781 Præst in Senjen's Provsti. 1799 to Ørlandet. 1804 the first Biskop for Northern Norway including Finnmark (which at this time was part of [joined together with] Trondheim's Bispestol). Lived in Alstadhoug where he in 1804 also became Sognepræst, but (left??) from there 1812. 1810 Dannebrogordenen (knighted), 1815 ditto Nordstjerneordenen (knighted or joined an order?; see Nordstjerneordenen in Norwegian Wikipedia) for his service to the schools and the care of the poor in his district. Member of parliament 1815—16. Died 2 Sept. 1828. During the bishop's frequent and long journeys, it seem that Provst Thaulow in Stadsbygden — 1803—08 — substituted for him in Ørlandet. The bishop was often in Statsbygden parsonage during his trips to Trondheim where he often was.
OK... so now we have a Christain with the last name Krogh born around the same time as Nicolai's father Andreas Christian Krog, (b. 1748 d. 12 July 1797).
Also Arnold Christian von Krogh, Born: 1735 in Vikedal who's great grandfather was the Bishop of Trondheim, we also have a Bishop with the last name Krogh in Bergen, Mathias Bonsach Krogh (1754-1828) and Bishop Peder Krog Bishop from 1689 till 1731 in Trondheim.
So this is where everything gets confused and lost, but it sure seems like a lot of coincidences to me. Now I'm not saying he is Nicolai's father Andreas Christian Krog but could he be connected somehow, or maybe illegitimate or something ? How did he get the name Krog ? (Ice Explorer (talk) 23:35, 25 November 2009 (UTC))
Hålogaland bispedømme ble utskilt fra Nidaros bispedømme i 1804. Bispedømmet omfattet Nordland, Troms og Finnmark fylker. I 1952 ble Hålogaland delt i Nord-Hålogaland (Troms og Finnmark) og Sør-Hålogaland (Nordland).
^"GDS-Hadeland: Døpte i Gran 1804 - 1815" (in Norwegian). Digitalarkivet 2009. Rettar til databasen: GDS-Hadeland. Versjon frå 12.12.2002. Talet på oppslag: 49334 (4 i dag). Retrieved 23 November 2009.
^"Bestill bilde" (in Norwegian). Oslo: Norsk Folkemuseum. Retrieved 24 November 2009.
