This is an archive of past discussions with User:Gilgamesh~enwiki. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
We are a team of researchers at the University of Oxford and AU Sharjah, researching the experiences of editors of content about the Arab world on Wikipedia. We are interested in your experiences of editing Wikipedia and are organising two events that we think you would be an excellent contributor to.
First, we are hosting an online wiki focus group about contributing to Wikipedia in Arabic and to articles about the Middle East and North Africa. We are interested in what barriers you perceive to exist in Wikipedia, how articles can be made better and generally what can be done to expand and improve Arabic Wikipedia and Wikipedia articles about the Arab world. This discussion will take place on a MediaWiki hosted at our institution and be available in English and Arabic. We will allow users to create their own discussion pages in addition to our discussions.
Second, we are hosting face-to-face workshops in Cairo from 21st-22nd October 2012. If you are interested in this we should be able to pay travel and accommodation costs for up to twenty participants. This workshop will cover similar themes to the online discussion but will allow participants to meet one another and benefit from being together.
We will take care of the organization and planning and all you have to do is show up and be ready to discuss. But if you would like to help shape some of the discussion themes in advance, please let us know. We have booked time in the workshops for Wikipedian-led discussions.
More details can be found by expanding our “Frequently Asked Questions” below.
We would be delighted to welcome you to either (or both) event. Please let us know (wikiproject@oii.ox.ac.uk) if you would like the opportunity to participate and we can send you more details.
This project is about who represents the Arab World on Wikipedia, and how the Middle East and the Arab world is represented on Wikipedia. We are studying Wikipedia through statistics, edit history data and personal experiences. Our ultimate goal is to help Wikipedia grow in size and fairness and do academic research on this topic. You can read more about the project here. From this page, you can also find a biography of the researchers. You may also want to see our interactive visualizations about Wikipedia.
Who is funding this project?
This project is funded by the International Development Research Centre (http://www.idrc.ca). This organization is funded by the Canadian government to improve infrastructure across the world, including online content. We have been working with the IDRC since June 2010.
Why did you contact me?
Because you’re awesome. In all seriousness, we have been looking through Wikipedia for active editors based on user activity in either Arabic Wikipedia or articles about the Arab world. We have not contacted everyone we could, but we contact people that we think will help to balance the discussion and help us (and each other) learn more about the state of Wikipedia.
Do I need to participate in both events?
Not at all. You are welcome to participate in both or just one. We recognise that it will be more convenient for some people to have online conversations and for others to speak in person. For some people it will not be practical to fly to the Middle East, but we still consider their contributions important and want to give them a voice in this work.
Can I use my Wikipedia handle in the online discussion?
You do not need to use any particular name on the online forum. All we need is a valid email address so you can register. You can post using your real name, your Wikipedia name or a completely different nickname, whatever allows you to speak your mind most effectively.
What sort of travel funding will you supply for the face-to-face workshop?
We have funding for travel and accommodation costs for approximately twenty participants depending on where they are coming from. If you would like to join us in one of the face-to-face meetings then we will do our best to get you there. The exact amount of support we can offer will depend on how many expressions of interest we get and their distance from the chosen venue.
Can I get involved and help to organize sessions?
Yes, but this is completely optional. Our first priority is organizing a space for people to attend, talk about Wikipedia, and discuss how to expand and improve it. However, if you want to help organize discussions, advise on venues or facilitate specific conversations, please let us know.
The discussion we have already organised/planned will focus generally on barriers that people perceive to exist when editing Wikipedia either in Arabic or about topics related to the Arab world. But if there is any particular angle of conversation that you’d like to focus on and start a discussion about then please let us know and we can either incorporate it in the programme or let you lead that part of the conversation.
Will the face-to-face meeting be public?
The meeting won’t be open to the broader public in order to facilitate focused discussions about the topics of greatest concern. We will compile a summary research report of the discussions. People can choose how/if they want to be identified, and a draft version of this document will be circulated to everyone who participates.
What if I don’t live in the Middle East or North Africa?
We would still very much encourage you to participate in the online discussion. However, we think it is unlikely that we will be able to fly you in for the in person workshops. If you can pay your own way, we may still be able to provide you with hotel expenses. In short, talk to us and we will see what we can do.
Will these events be in English or Arabic?
Both events will be designed to accommodate English and Arabic speakers. The online discussion will have tracks for both languages and the workshops will have simultaneous English and Arabic sessions that you can choose between (as well as coming-together sessions to share experiences). Three of the researchers speak English as a first language and three speak Arabic as a first language.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kemono until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. —Ryulong (琉竜) 17:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Marshallese transcriptions
I'm coming here, since it seems you are the author of the manner in which Marshallese words are transcribed at Wikipedia. I believe the situation to be a mess. The transcriptions are not only incredibly narrow, but Help:IPA for Marshallese does a poor job of explaining the transcriptions to non-experts. Here is how I see improving the situation
Stop distinguishing between /broad/ and [narrow] transcriptions in Wikipedia articles. Stick to one transcription between brackets, since users aren't expected to know the difference between phonemes and allophones.
Do away with the IPAc template(s). The input for these is so obscure that you are the only one who can do it. A simpler {{IPA-mh}} would be better for other editors (see, e.g. {{IPA-es}} for a comparison).
Simplify the transcription. While academic tradition is an important factor, don't feel confined to strictly adhere to how sources transcribe Marshallese in IPA; there is a profound precedent of what would be original research if it were in article space. One way to approach the matter is to start with a phonemic notation system and add only the allophones that are necessary. The fewer diacritics the better. This is why, for example, Help:IPA for Spanish encodes for lenition of voiced obstruents but without undertacks. This should help achieve an appropriate balance between too much and too little detail.
Marshallese is infamously complicated in this regard. I've already been discussing in Talk:Marshallese language about this. The problem is, Marshallese phonemes don't map well to IPA articulation, which is why the dual broad/narrow transcription exists. The narrow articulations are quite real. The diphthongs are quite real. The consonants' secondary articulations are quite real. We have been discussing how best to handle it, but Marshallese is far removed from European languages and simple assumptions of how to transcribe them in such a eurocentric system like IPA. - Gilgamesh (talk) 02:09, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Gilgamesh, I've noticed that you have contributed a lot to the Marshallese anthems on Wikipedia (Ij Io̧kwe Ļo̧k Aelōn̄ Eo Aō and Forever Marshall Islands) I thought you might be a good person to bring some questions I have regarding the anthems and their pages:
First off, I noticed that the Ij Io̧kwe Ļo̧k Aelōn̄ Eo Aō is written in the new orthography, but the anthem was replaced in 1991. The Marshallese language article isn't clear on it, but I get the impression that the new orthography didn't take affect until after the anthem stopped being used in 1991, so might it not be better to have the lyrics in the old orthography (and mention that it's the old orthography)?
And, conversely, the current anthem seems to be in the old orthography (there doesn't seem to be a single ļ, m̧, ņ, or o̧ in it, although they may not be in the words used in the anthem, I don't know enough about the language to verify that). Should it not be in the new orthography?
Does the current anthem have a Marshallese title? (Is it referred to as whatever "Forever Marshall Islands" is in Marshallese in Marshallese?)
Well, it's not so simple. I only had lyrics for the old anthem in the new orthography. Also, the old anthem is not just a former anthem, but a Marshallese folk song that has commanded cultural respect since before it became an anthem and since after it was no longer an anthem, and it has not lost this significance or practice as a folk song. As for the new anthem, I know very little about it, as I moved away from the Marshall Islands shortly after it was adopted, and I never learnt its melody, much less memorized its lyrics. My frank opinion is that the new orthography supercedes the old orthography in all cases; but if both remain in notable use, then articles like these should include both. But I only ever learnt the new orthography, and all I know about the old ones are some occasional notes about how it differs from the new one, and I otherwise have no practice in it. In studying Marshallese, I have relied greatly on the Marshallese-English Dictionary, which since 1976 has been the only complete Marshallese dictionary in existence, and it exclusively uses the new orthography. And this is the problem — the old orthography may be widespread, but never had quite as much formal lexical work as the new orthography has enjoyed. Lacking a dictionary, the old orthography is learnt by example and analogy with a lot of idiosyncratic spellings that can differ from person to person. In this respect it resembles the relative chaos of scribal English before the adoption of standardized spellings starting with the Chancery Standard.
If you can find old orthography lyrics for the old anthem, be my guest. I am still searching for new orthography lyrics for the new anthem. And I don't have the slightest clue whether or not the new anthem has a Marshallese name. - Gilgamesh (talk) 01:38, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Hello, Gilgamesh~enwiki. You have new messages at Talk:Beersheba. Message added 12:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Recent addition to bikini re. "design violates the traditional female modesty customs of Marshallese culture in its exposure of bare thighs"
Hi. Saw your recent addition to the bikini article re. "design violates the traditional female modesty customs of Marshallese culture in its exposure of bare thighs". This is interesting, and I've no reason to doubt the info you've included, but I've marked it as needing a valid source/citation. Would you please be so kind as to return to the article and provide at least the minimum in verifiable sources? Thanks! Azx218:28, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I was a tad afraid of this...I knew there was a possibility someone would demand a reference. At this time, I have none, though I suppose it's possible I could find a hard reference if I dove through my bookshelf of Micronesian culture books. My immediate reference is having grown up in the Marshall Islands, which though in good faith, is something I suppose makes this the epitome of original research. Empirically, pending a harder reference, I cannot defend the unreferenced material, but I thought it at least worth mentioning because it is very true in Marshallese culture, and therefore contextually fascinating. For now, I suppose I could Google cultural websites to find some harder corroboration. - Gilgamesh (talk) 19:10, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
No worries, I'm sure you'll ultimately arrive at whatever the best scenario would be for how to include this fascinating material. Cheers! Azx220:03, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
By the way, you keep asking me these random pronunciation questions. All my answers are original research at best. What is all this actually for? And is there no one else you ask? - Gilgamesh (talk) 23:08, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of liturgical Hebrew cognates until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 22:11, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Please register a Wikipedia account and interact with the user community at large (such as through an article talk page) to find a better way of seeking these answers than to just ask me every several days. This haphazard anonymous-to-user approach is inefficient and yields only subjective answers at best. - Gilgamesh (talk) 10:08, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
You're welcome. I figured you mustn't have realised. I think you've dodged a bullet here - you were setting yourself up for a long block. StAnselm (talk) 23:22, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
Ouch. To be honest, I wasn't entirely sure what the right thing to do was. I examined some of the guideline pages I knew of, and even asked other editors for counsel and advice. I only decided to act boldly when I thought my actions were permissible according to policy. - Gilgamesh (talk) 23:24, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
Hi Gilgamesh, I'm sorry but this edit has introduced an inconsistency into the article that spurred a complaint on talk years ago which was still unaddressed, so I had to undo your changes. When reliable sources contradict each other, the obvious solution – also usually followed on Wikipedia – is to relate their accounts side by side and acknowledge the differences. Attempts to force harmonisation between conflicting accounts artificially only result in confusion and fall foul of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, that's why we don't do it. Stemmler (the chart in Great Vowel Shift), Wheeler (the table in that same article), Barber (the running text in Phonological history of English low back vowels) and Wells (the table in that same article) are all different authors, so it's not that surprising that they don't quite agree. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 04:12, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
In Romanization_of_Hebrew#Comparative_table, your edit at [1] added the following incomplete sentence: "In addition, an International Phonetic Alphabet pronunciation is indicated—historical (Tiberian vocalization) for ISO 259, prescribed for Hebrew Academy, and in practice for Israeli." Looks like you had intended to end the sentence with "Israelis" or a noun phrase instead of just the word "Israeli".
Also, your subsequent edit at [2] removed the IPA column from the Hebrew Academy section of the table. If that was your intent, then you will also want to remove the reference to that IPA column from the sentence quoted above, which remains as you created it.
