This is an archive of past discussions with User:Ghmyrtle. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Golly, this new new typeface styling etc., is getting some used to. I probably have not worded that previous sentence very well, but my eyes are stinging. Maybe it is my age, and inert reluctance to change generally, but I may take some convincing that this is an 'improvement'.
Ah, I wondered what was going on - good job this page is on my watchlist from last time I posted here otherwise I would continue to think there was something wrong with my new tablet! It's strange for such a "consensual" place any changes to do with WMF seem to come out of the blue without any apparent prior discussion. The new font looks quite dated to me. DeCausa (talk) 06:45, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
Ah, but dated is the new post-modern, or something. One good thing about it (in my view) is that there's more room for images in articles - because the text has expanded in size but the images have stayed the same. Take a look at any article you're familiar with and see how much more text there now appears to be between existing images. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 07:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
Hmm... I don't see any changes at all. Obviously(!) when the Visual Editor thing came in, I did whatever I needed to do as quickly as possible to get rid of it, so I must have changed some setting at that time. Now I get the same enjoyable and fruitful editing experience as I've ever had... (?!) Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:18, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
Excuse humanity while your trendy little tablets are breaking, there is HUMAN TRAFFICKING AND TORTURE BEING COVERED UP, and you like to call that "NEUTRAL"? Keep laughing all the way to the bank, trite preppies. You're what's wrong with the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by InvisibleRefugee (talk • contribs) 12:00, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Yeah as I did make the page for Frank Warner, sometimes I try to find other names, other times I forget ha ha.
(one DAB page I made a few weeks ago was Robert Bratton (disambiguation), which I forgot about and I just added Bob to it as I can't believe I forgot to put that as well)
Again-thanks. Wgolf (talk) 16:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
New(ish) book
Just wondered if you had come across a May 2013 publication titled Blues: A Regional Experience ? The Amazon.com 'reviewers' seem to be waxing lyrical and I suspect, based on a little recent experience, that editors here may use it as a reliable source. I had not heard of it until today - perhaps it's manna for our reference rummages, maybe not. Any thoughts ??
Please explain how the Robert Johnson edit is fringe material when stating wild unbiased things like Robert Johnson dying of Marfan's isn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.98.123 (talk) 19:58, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Because you did so much work on the sisters, I thought I should let you know first what I have discovered. Now that the weather is warmer and drier, I decided to investigate Gunnersbury Cemetery. I rang them and they told me what I was by now expecting to hear, that they do not have Dixie Jewel Ross, but they do have Veda Victoria Henderson. So I hopped on a bus and went there this afternoon to see the inscription with my own eyes. The wording came as quite a shock. (Please see the second attachment on my Ross Sisters page.)
Clearly Vicky was known as Dixie in the latter part of her life, which explains the caption on the Getty Images family portrait and also the general confusion about which sister married Dickie Henderson.
Would you like to amend your very circumspect wording in the article, or would you prefer me to have a go at it?
I'm going to be away for the next few days, so I'm happy for you to make amendments as you see fit, and I'll try to get my head around it all again next week! But, in the mean time, I've had another quick look at Ancestry.com, and found:
US Department of State, Report of the Death of an American Citizen. London, July 31, 1963. Veda Victoria Henderson. Occupation: Housewife. Born: Roscoe, Texas, November 8, 1927. Date of death: July 10, 10.30 am, 1963. On way to St Mary's Hospital, Kensington... Cause of death: Certified by Coroner to be Barbiturate poisoning (sodium amytal). Insufficient evidence as to the circumstances. Open verdict. Buried at Gunnersbury Cemetery.... Person responsible for custody: Mr. Richard M.M. Henderson, Husband.
So, that clearly indicates that her age was 35 - not 33 as on the family inscription, which is also curious.
There are also family trees on the Ancestry.com site - some of which are at least as confused as we are. The important thing about them is that they give links to official source documents.
For example, there is a US Social Security Death Index for Eva V. Hender, born 26 June 1926, died in Florida 29 May 2002. This is the same person as Eva Vicki Lamouret, who married Robert Sherman Hender in 1959. The sister who was born on 26 June 1926 was recorded at birth as Eva, but in the 1930 census was recorded as Betsy Ann Ross - with two younger sisters, Victoria Ross and Dixie J. Ross.
There are also copies of Texas birth certificates for Veda Victoria Ross, born 8 November 1927, and Dixie Jewell Ross, born 9 August 1929.
My brain hurts, and I've only looked at a few of the official records!! My only point at this stage is that I don't think we've yet come with the definitive answer as to who was who - and it looks to me as though others who have tried to research the genealogy have come up with similar problems. My guess is simply that the family - both the parents and the girls - swapped their names around at various times, simply to confuse people.... I suppose that might also explain why their apparent stage names (Aggie, Maggie and Elmira - though I haven't yet seen a good source for those names) are different again. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:55, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Your guess is much the same as mine - that they played about with their names. The American record of Vicky's death is very informative. In particular, it fits in with the recollection which had been gradually forming in my head, that Vicky died of an overdose and that she had been distressed about the death of her sister. If Dixie also died young, that would explain why we have no information about her from after 1963. Also, I had long suspected that it was Betsy Ann who had married Lamouret and Hender after her disastrous first marriage. LynwoodF (talk) 22:57, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
From The Independent, San Gabriel Valley, Pasadena, July 11, 1963:
DRUG DEATH REPORTED
Dixie Henderson, 33-year old Texas-born wife of Dickie Henderson, one of Britain's top comedians, died in a London hospital yesterday after taking what was believed to be an overdose of drugs.
Their parents - Charles Adolphus Ross (1902-1955) married Veda Cordelia Arretta Lipham in 1922. But Charles was remarried in 1949, to Hettie E. Morris. It seems (though I haven't seen a reliable source) that mother Veda was remarried to someone called Matteson....
From Orlando Sentinel, 28 March 2000:
Obituary: VEDA MATTESON, 94, Casa Blanca Lane, Orlando, died Friday, March 24. Mrs. Matteson was a homemaker. Born in Wedowee, Ala., she moved to Central Florida in 1995. She was Baha'i Faith. Survivors: daughter, Eva V. Hender, Maitland; seven grandchildren; nine great-grandchildren. Carey Hand Cox-Parker Funeral Home, Winter Park.
So, it appears that "Eva Vicki Hender" (= Betsy Ann?) was the only daughter still alive in 2000.
From Florida Divorce Records: Robert C and Betsy Hightower divorced in 1957.
From Florida Marriage Records: Burnice Cleveland Hightower married Dorothy Jean Ross in Broward County, Florida in 1969.
Robert C and Burnice C Hightower are the same person....
From The Daily Intelligencer, June 1, 1970:
WIDOW, SON, INHERIT ESTATE. A Solebury widow and her son will inherit a $4,500 personal estate and $80,000 in real estate holdings, according to letters of administration granted in the Bucks County Register of Wills Office. Burnice also known as Robert C. Hightower... His personal estate... will be shared by his widow, Dorothy J. Hightower... and a son....
The person who compiled the family tree obviously believes that "Betsy Ross" (= Hightower) and "Dorothy Jean Ross" (= Hightower) are one and the same person, but I can't find any independent evidence for that. Also...
From US Social Security Death Records: Dorothy J. Hightower, born 21 November 1924, died 21 November 1996 in Troup, Smith, Texas, USA (having previously lived in Florida)
That birth date doesn't correspond with any dates we can find otherwise, and the coincidence of both dates being 21 November may be an error. But... 1924??
I hope that by the time you read this you have had an enjoyable break. Thank you for all the work you have done in the last couple of days. I am now trying to digest the information. I suspect that Dorothy Jean Ross is a separate person and just happened to have the same surname as Hightower's previous wife. The divorce record date is too late for our theory about Betsy, unless the Paris marriage was bigamous!
After mulling it over for several weeks I am now pretty sure that Vicky's death is the incident I remember. The cause of death came as no surprise to me. Personally I am not keen to mention the cause or the inquest verdict in the article. The son and daughter and any other descendants appear to have kept out of all this and I would not wish to distress them. I am one of several editors who have been removing the name of the husband of Prof. Alice Roberts when it periodically appears in the article on her. He requested anonymity and I for one respect his wishes. A distressing death is an even more sensitive matter.
I have attempted to explain the inconsistencies as I see them. If you wish to change or add anything, please feel free. I am afraid I have left you to supply references for the bit about Betsy Ann. If you prefer, please delete or replace those sentences. That is entirely your research.
It is even more difficult and complicated than we had thought! Looking at it again, I have found an earlier birth, of Dorothy Gem Ross, born to the same parents on 21 November (sic!) 1924, died of whooping cough 14 July 1925. And, a reference in a November 1948 transit document to Eva known as Vicki Ross (also, sic!). Until I've got to the bottom of all this to my satisfaction, I won't edit your current text. I think, though, I should transfer this discussion to the article talk page, in case anyone else wants to follow up or clarify (it's likely that children and grandchildren are still alive). Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:10, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
I had not expected this conversation to develop in this way. I merely wanted to let you know first what I had discovered. So perhaps you are right that the discussion should be transferred. However, as mentioned before, I hope we do not cause any distress to the family. The whole business is growing more fascinating the deeper we search, but it could revive some painful memories. LynwoodF (talk) 11:05, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
This thread [at http://www.janetcharltonshollywood.com/] (and many others elsewhere) carries a lot of speculation and conjecture based on a little accurate info and a lot of inaccurate info with no substantiating evidence. Where most of the inaccuracy comes from is simply because of something the mother of the Ross Sisters did a long time ago for reasons that likely had to do with the girls’ ages when they started performing. My research is based somewhat on Ancestry.com data, but mostly on official national and state records as well as newspaper accounts to corroborate my findings. The Ross parents, Charles and Veda, actually had 4 daughters. The first was Dorothy Jean, born 25 Nov 1924, but died of whoooping cough 14 Jul 1925. Betsy Ann’s birth certificate has her born 26 Jun 1926 simply as Eva…looks like the Betsy (Elizabeth) Ann was added later. Veda Victoria came next 8 Nov 1927, followed by Dixie Jewell on 9 Aug 1929…Texas birth and death certificates confirm all this. I believe when they went to London in Sep 1946 to perform, that is when they each assumed the identity and birthdate of the next oldest sister…likely for passport reasons. Informally they continued to use their Betsy/Vicki/Dixie names, but formally their legal names became Dorothy Jean/Eva V/Veda V. All subsequent legal records reflect this. That is why Dixie’s marriage and death records in England list her as Veda V Henderson. All of their travel records showing entry back into the USA also reflect their new assumed legal identities. For example, Betsy’s marriage to Robert Bunny Hightower is well documented in the news, but her travel records show her as Dorothy Jean with a 25 Nov 1924 birthdate. I could go on and on, but I won’t…those of you with Ancestry accounts can find my finding if you look hard enough. Basically, what happened to them is Dixie died 10 Jul 1963 of a drug overdose in London leaving behind her husband Dickie Henderson and two children Matthew and Linda. Betsy had a son named Dana in 1948 from her marriage to Robert Hightower (who’s real given name was Burnice Cleveland Hightower). He divorced her in 1957 and settled in New Hope, PA. She met and married Spanish businessman Rony Abagi and had a daughter Helena Ann in 1962 and another daughter Veda Elizabeth in 1965. Helena married and settled in Troup, Texas. Veda married and settled in the Orlando, FL area. Betsy divorced Rony Abagi in 1969 and remarried Hightower, who was terminally ill. Hightower passed away in April 1970. Betsy never remarried, eventually went to live in Texas with her daughter Helena, and passed away 21 Nov 1996. Vicki married Robert Lamouret in Paris around 1949 or 1950. They attended her father’s remarriage in Feb 1949 as “Mr. and Mrs. Robert Lamouret”, hence the uncertainty. They had two daughters Annette and Elisabeth who both reside in Florida. Robert died in Mar 1959 and Eva Vicki Lamouret married Robert Sherman in Oct 1959. They subsequently divorced in 1973 and she passed away in Maitland, FL on 29 May 2002. Their father Charles passed away in Palm Springs, CA on 6 May 1955 while their mother Veda Cordelia lived to the age of 94 before passing away in Orlando on 24 Mar 2000. So there you have it, all three of these amazing talents have passed away, but their legacy will endure forever… By YetAnotherTexan Correction… Vicki’s remarriage was to Robert Sherman Hender.
I looked at that site some time ago before that was posted. It does seem to give a coherent explanation which deals with all the apparent inconsistencies. If it is all true, I have clearly been mistaken in assuming that the official records would be reliable. This could well make the taller slimmer one in the middle of the 1946 photo Dixie (she looks more like the "Dixie" in the 1956 photo), whereas I had assumed that she was the shortest of the three. However, we would no longer have a problem with the Lamouret marriage. The article needs further amendment! LynwoodF (talk) 13:48, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
I agree - I'm working on it. I don't think, for example, that the statement that "Clearly Vicky was commonly known as Dixie at the time of her death" is accurate; it is more likely to be the case that it is Dixie (b.1929) who was married to Henderson, but that she had been using the legal name of her older sister Veda Victoria. But, it's going to be a challenge coming up with an appropriate form of words! Ghmyrtle (talk)13:57, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Do you think that this former British songwriter, record producer and principally music arranger, is notable enough for a Wikipedia article ? His name crops up on about 30 Wiki articles, primarily arranging strings for various 1970s pop/soul recordings. He apparently died in a car crash in the late 1970s.[1] I do not know much else, and am away looking at Lords, that's Lord's not Lords, for the next five days. If you are interested that is - but it would get you away from those faded singing sister combos !
I'll see if I can find out any more about him. I've found a death record for a Gerald Roland Shury who died in 1978 aged 34, which looks as though it could be him, but would need to find a lot more before I write anything. Someone else I need to find out about is Papa Don Schroeder - ring any bells? There is actually a tenuous connection between him and Shury. Have a good trip - hopefully the April showers will stay away! Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:55, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
Papa Doc yes, Papa Don... no. The showers did largely stay away, but we lost the game. However, sitting in the sunshine on the balcony of the Pavilion at Lord's, well there's worst places you could be.
This lady (sadly departed) deserves a much more lengthy, and better referenced, biography. Just have a look at the songs she wrote/co-wrote; not least of which "That Ole/Old Devil Called Love", which must be worthy of a decent article itself. I suspect labelling her a singer is a bit of an injustice in itself.
I fully understand that I am leaving stuff to you, but my time scales are tight at the moment. If you do not fancy a go, pass it back to me in mid June (as opposed to mid Doris) ! Cheers,
Excellent. I'd never heard of her, but I 'found' Doris' name via one of those late night/early morning BBC Four documentaries, this time on the 'Great American Songbook'. A caption below Alison Moyet's videoed rendition of "That Ole Devil Called Love" stated something like 'The song was written by the little known American songwriter Doris Fisher'. Anyhow, good work as ever on Doris, her co-writer and that cracking good song. Those Yanks have no idea of their musical heritage - it's a good job you and I (and a few others) are around.
That section seems to have just one reference, dealing with Cornwall, so I'm not sure what your point is. Anyway, my main point is that you should have these discussions on the article talk pages, not bilaterally with me. Thanks. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:26, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
I seem to remember that this is a lost cause, but can you unearth anything on said Diunna Greenleaf, born in Houston, Texas (probably) ? Parents Ben and Mary Ella Greenleaf. I reckon she was born circa 1960, but Google has nothing of note. You may gather that there is a new article coming about her. At the 2014 Blues Music Awards, Greenleaf won the Koko Taylor Award, so she is notable enough. Cheers,
Tsk. No mention of the fact that my favourite local publician is also so named ? Otherwise I must say, a very good article.
Any chance of your detective skills unearthing birth details for the band members of Trampled Under Foot ? Namely Danielle Schnebelen, Kris Schnebelen, and Nick Schnebelen; siblings all probably born in Kansas City, Missouri, United States. Father definitely named Bill - mother probably not named Ben. Cheers,
Danielle Nicole Schnebelen was born on 20 July... but seems to have gone to some length to remove any mention of the year from the records. Hey ho. Kristopher R Schnebelen, born 2 May 1980. Nicholas R Schnebelen, born 30 September 1978. I don't know where they were born, but they certainly lived in Kansas City. Can't find much else I'm afraid... Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for that. What is a picture of Sid James doing here ?
I was just saying to my beloved, that the sound playback thingy on my computer packed up earlier this year, and although I can follow film etc., and see graphics showing the sound 'playing', I can not hear anything. Damn annoying - I will have to get my 'computer guru' in at some point. I am bloody hopeless at technical things... and non-technical things... well, most things to be honest.
Sadly, I seem to very rarely listen to music except on my PC and iPod these days. My CDs will end up going the way of vinyl at this rate... clogging up shelf and garage space until I decide to trot down to the charity shop with them. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:29, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
I know you did a lot of work on the origins of rock and roll a couple of years back. I have expanded (mostly referencing) the above article, but there seems to be a bit of a hole in the second paragraph under the 'Original recording' sub heading. Can you add anything, referencing or otherwise ?
On a completely separate matter, I am more than a little annoyed following my edits [2][3] to find the two comments from another editor on my talk page. Am I over-reacting ? A second opinion is always valued. Cheers,
If it were me, I'd simply revert him and slap a few templated warnings on his page. I see he's made "over 1K contributions on Wikipedia." He's probably about 12. Rise above it... Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:02, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Re the first question.... leave it with me. I may need to look at offline sources (once called "books"). Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:04, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Hee hee. Got any 'books' left have you ? For a man who has recklessly thrown away his vinyl collection, and is now considering the same fate for his CDs, I'm a bit surprised you've got anything tactile remaining in your abode. I am grimly hanging on to my original vinyl LPs, such as Wishbone Ash and Mad Dogs and Englishmen etc., because errr.... as my dear old dad always said about everything he hoarded (except music, that is) ... "you never know when they might come in useful!"
Confession... I last played a full CD (of which I have hundreds) about five years ago.
Two thank you's, somewhat belatedly. Firstly, for stepping in and assisting regarding the Nick Cave photograph. Then for the heads up (I believe that is the current parlance - at least, it appears to be in the US of A) for giving me Preston Shannon to work on. I will have a 'go' at the latter, when I find time. Oooh, I've just found it... it's on my watch. Sorry, but I've been re-reading Spike Milligan's wartime series of books (Adolf Hitler: My Part in His Downfall and the rest) and I think it's catching. Dear old Spike, a real hero of mine.
However, I see you managed to dead Jeffrey Kruger within a week !
Hi im just looking randomly for people to support me on the Cro Magnon page, I have been doing some homework and it seems the Welsh are nearly taking Gold when it comes down to Highest Fitness level per capita world wide, it seems you are part of the Graciles, which are numbered at about 50 Million worldwide, making you distinct from Non Graciles which number about 6 billion, I will be renewing my effort to expand properly the genetics section of the Cro Magnon article, I would be great full of your support when I run into disgruntled Non Graciles as I surely will--Kovkikz (talk) 20:38, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
It's not news to me. But I'm surprised you think that everyone agrees with you over its interpretation. In that specific case, I just copied and pasted from another article without over-taxing my brain thinking about it. It's definitely R&B with a capital B though. : ) Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:53, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Any chance you can find the time to see if you can unearth a date of birth for this singer/songwriter/record producer ? Born Michael Antony Derrick, in Newmarket, Suffolk, England, circa 1950. Otherwise, the present Wiki article seems to cover everything of note available on t'internet. Cheers,
Hmm... There was a Michael E. Derrick (mother's maiden name Shoults, if that helps) who was born in Newmarket in the first quarter of 1945 - which could be him (the initial could just be a typo). It may be too early - but then again he was writing songs by 1968 - here - so it's possible. Then again, it's suggested (here) that the song was co-written by Derrick, Ife and Edwards, but Derrick/Antony claimed all the royalties! Nothing we can use, I'm afraid. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:23, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Could have been him - 1950 was my guess based on his 'emergence' in the very late 1960s, but obviously 1945 is not that far away. The 'confusion' over royalty payments may have arisen from the fact that Derrick originally wrote songs under the Miki Antony name with J. Vincent Edwards and Kris Ife, before adopting it as his own stage name. Anyhow, it is all a little bit of supposition which does not quite pass muster here. I'll let sleeping dogs lie. Thanks for your efforts as ever. Cheers,
In a true spirit of endeavour, I tracked down the Bob Monkhouse record that he/they wrote. If and when you get your speaker problem sorted out, my very strong advice is.... just... DON'T.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:33, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Hell, no. I thought it might have been a lost rock and roll classic. Seemingly more on a par with Tony Blackburn's musical warblings back in the day then. Thank goodness my speakers are bust... or whatever it is. Been to Arundel and Edgbaston these past ten days, which seemed like a real holiday, what with Yorkshire doing well and the weather being more than kind to us. I've even got a suntan !
Incidentally, Edwards was born in 1947 and Ife in 1946, so 1945 for Derrick appears more likely. I must have previously missed the fact that Ife died in 2013. It's never ending, this Wiki lark !
Hmm.. (again). According to Ancestry.com, Christopher J. Ife was born in Aylesbury in the second quarter of 1941, not 1946 (and married in 1968). Electoral registers show a Christopher J. Ife living in Ipswich in 2003 (the only Ife in Ipswich), so that matches. Do you know where the 1946 date came from? I can't see a birth date in any of his obits, only a (possibly assumed) age. There are early photos of him here. In the 1958 photo, he looks more like 17 than 12 !!. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:35, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
The 1947 birth year for J. Vincent Edwards looks a little dubious as well, given that (according to this) he started singing with a band in 1962. Possible, but dubious. His first band was apparently in Newcastle. I can't track down a J. Vincent Edwards though. There was a Vincent J. Edwards born in Wolverhampton in 1943, but probably no connection. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:05, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Blimey, pop stars who have altered their dates of birth. Who'd have thunk it ! I reckon that Ife's 1946 detail came from here [5], but who can tell. I agree those 1958 photos tend to belie him being only 12 years old ! In the absence of anything truly definitive I think I'll move on.
Ah, June 2009 - I remember it so well - probably as mentioned earlier. Seems vaguely reliable as anything else. Are you going to report me for not adding the reference - I could get that four month ban mentioned previously !?!
OK - I don't think I've used a 45cat biography before. There don't seem to be many of them. What the site says is: "You can help create biographies for every artist and label on 45cat (not just the "notable" ones unlike some websites!). Every artist and label has a "Create Biography" link - or if the biography already exists, then you can edit it with any improvements or additions you have." So, no auditing, or any need for sources. I think I know what our WP:RS/N would say! But seriously, it looks to me like that bio - with its quite detailed knowledge - was created either by Ife himself, or by a close assistant or fan. Not that I'm blaming you for using it, of course! Actually, looking at it more, it was created by someone in Canada called twerptwo. Maybe I'll ask them! Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:38, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Mmmm... interesting. Plus it turns out that there is more than one twerp in Canada. How can you ask them ? Nit wit skype, I suppose. Good luck and keep me informed - anyhow, I now have the page on my watchlist thingy.
Of course, I could take a massive step back, and ask what it is that really makes Kris Ife 'notable'. Frankly, the Quiet Five (without a Wiki article at present) seem to have more 'notability' - alongside said Miki Antony, J. Vincent Edwards, Star Turn on 45 (Pints) and/or even Richard Barnes. Suck your pipe, liquorice or otherwise, on that one. I love liquorice - back in the day, my mum used to buy me a selection box of said confection each Christmas. Oooooh - I'm easily pleased.
Message from twerptwo: "I would have accessed most of my information on Kris Ife from various sources on the internet. As you say he is a fairly obscure subject...". So, that's very helpful... Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:17, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
No-one has any idea where the 1946 date originated, though now it's quoted all over the place, and it has not been questioned by those close to Ife who have edited the article. I think we should add a footnote to the talk page comment - and eventually, if no-one responds there, add a footnote to the article itself. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:01, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions with User:Ghmyrtle. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
