This is an archive of past discussions with User:GRuban, for the period 2016. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Melissa Bachman until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Wikic¤l¤gyt@lk to M£16:04, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Modest Stein
I know you and I are going to continue working on the page, but for what it's worth, I think it's ready for mainspace already. Thanks for all your efforts. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:57, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Really? Thanks! Unfortunately, as you can guess, I'm inserting stuff based on the Sasha and Emma book, which is, so far, bulking out the "Early life" section far beyond the "Success" section. So it's kind of unbalanced. Undue weight, and all that. You think that's OK? Or should we revert to something where the sections are roughly equal for the public version, and keep hacking away at the longer version in user space? --GRuban (talk) 22:49, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
OK, I finished Sasha, and expanded the later section a bit. It still gives more space to 1888-1892 than 1893-1958, but at least no longer several times more. I'll push it to main space soon. If you can find anything more we can write about his magazine work other than just put up all the covers ... and/or if you can find even one 1940s+ cover that we can put up ... that would help too. I also did a DYK review, so we can nominate it for DYK when we push it. --GRuban (talk) 09:43, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Melissa Bachman removal
The Endangered Species Act(ESA) does not pertain to species outside the United States such a lion in South Africa. I do not believe the Christian Science Monitor is a reliable source on the ESA. However I am a wildlife biologist and actually know something about the ESA. RobDazzler (talk) 01:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
I am not a wildlife biologist, and know nothing about the ESA. However, I do know that the CS Monitor is a reliable source in general, and in this case, they actually cite the specific Fish and Wildlife Service review that they were talking about. "U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Initiates Review of African Lion Under the Endangered Species Act". Press Release. U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. November 27, 2012. Retrieved 19 January 2016. Of course perhaps the FWS also doesn't understand the ESA, and if they had asked a wildlife biologist would have quickly learned the error of their ways; but at the time, they were, in fact, reviewing it. --GRuban (talk) 07:19, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Yes, but if you actually read the USFWS citation on what listing a species outside the United States does, you would see how it does not pertain. Just because a "reliable" source cites a reliable source it still does not mean the information is relevant. I will concede that the section I removed is technically correct, that they were reviewing it, but it still has no relevance to the article. It was just extraneous info at the end. Feel free to add my removal back. RDaz
You've got mail
Hello, GRuban. Please check your email; you've got mail! It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.
Sorry, my Wikimedia email is broken, for several weeks now. I filed https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T123068 but I haven't been able to send or receive Wikimedia email for several weeks now. I've tried to change my email account, but that didn't help, it's something on the Wikimedia side. If you post on this page I can try to answer, but I won't get your mail, and you won't get mine. --GRuban (talk) 15:29, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
DYK for Melissa Bachman
On 25 January 2016, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Melissa Bachman, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that to get her first job in television, Melissa Bachman worked four months for free, drove 150 miles (240 km)* daily, and supported herself as a waitress? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Melissa Bachman. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.
On 30 January 2016, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Modest Stein, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that before becoming a successful pulp magazine illustrator, Modest Stein was an aspiring assassin until he dumped his dynamite in a Pittsburgh outhouse? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Modest Stein. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.
GRuban, the review is yours, so if you think it should be rejected, it's up to you to put that "X" icon up there. You may want to notify LavaBaron on his talk page before doing so or not; the two of us stay off each other's talk pages, so I can't post there myself. While he should be monitoring his own nomination, a courtesy notification using the DYKproblem template can spur action, and is usually recommended when issues have been found in the course of a review. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:12, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
It's almost there, so seems a shame to X over something that might be easily fixed. Let me ping LavaBaron directly on his talk as you suggested. --GRuban (talk) 21:18, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
The photographer needs to release the rights to it. Most pictures on the Internet are copyrighted, which means you aren't allowed to just reuse them, and Wikipedia cares about that. The Wikipedia needs to be free for everyone to edit and reuse. There are some photographers that allow their images to be reused, mostly by putting their images under a Creative Commons license; Wikipedia can use Creative Commons Attribution, or Attribution Share-Alike. WP:IUP gives more details. They are hard to find, sometimes (though for Amrita Rao, we seem to have seven, which is not bad at all). If you are the photographer who took the photograph, you can put the image under one of those licenses, and we'll be able to use it. But that picture you uploaded was almost certainly taken by a professional, so we will need proof that professional put it under a free license. Often professionals are not willing to do that, because that is how they earn their money, after all. --GRuban (talk) 14:11, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
got it thank-you i upload one pic which is taken by me with valid source..but i dont understand one thing wiki delete one of my pic which i was uploaded and giving valid source suggested by you... --Hemalove (talk) 02:49, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
You need to prove the picture was taken by you, and that you have the right to release it under a free license. The usual way to do that is to email permissions-commons@wikimedia.org and explain who you are, and how you happened to be the photographer of a clearly posed photograph by a movie star. If, for example, that was taken for a magazine, or a publicity agency, you want to use the official email address for that magazine or publicity agency to prove you represent them, and you want to give details about the image - when and where it was taken - to show you didn't just download it from the internet. WP:DONATEIMAGE has details. --GRuban (talk) 22:27, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
Great to hear from you
It was very nice to hear from you, GRuban. I remember you quite well, and so does Laisha. We're doing well here, living in Maine now. I don't do a lot of Wikipedia stuff, and don't know my way around so well, mostly just adding things that I come across that seem to be missing. We've both been working for Aviva Directory for years now, although not as volunteers, and we've worked on a few other directories since leaving DMOZ. I hope everything is well with you. --Kfander 03:27, 19 February 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kfander (talk • contribs)
7&6=thirteen (☎) has given you a Dobos torte to enjoy! Seven layers of fun because you deserve it.
To give a Dobos torte and spread the WikiLove, just place {{subst:Dobos Torte}} on someone else's talkpage, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend.
Enjoy! I would offer you a fine beer, but I don't know how that would go over. In any event, I invented this template, like the subject and intend to use it! Cheers. 7&6=thirteen (☎)02:27, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
MOSCAPS close
Could you please modify that close? It really, really should not conflate MOS:TM / MOS:CAPS's requirement, for the overwhelming majority of sources showing an exact stylization, which is an independent style guideline, with WP:AT's WP:COMMONNAME, which is a titles-only policy about the underlying name being the same (the Beatles, however styled, vs. the Beetles or the Meatles), which has nothing to do with style and never has. You've closed with a "consensus" that is going to be read by many people as equating the title policy with the style guideline, when they are only superficially similar, and the discussion did not come to anything close to a consensus for such an interpretation.
The present wording is:
Consensus is (1) to use the capitalization found in reliable sources, i.e., WP:COMMONNAME, when that is clear and incontrovertible, and (2) to try to rephrase sentences so they don't start with a term beginning with a lower case letter. Opinions are split on what to do if there isn't a clear and incontrovertible preponderance of usage in reliable sources (whether to use the trademark case or sentence case and common English usage), but MOS:TMRULES is pretty clear that we should stick to our usual sentence case and common English usage in that case, rather than follow the usage of trademark holders.
More accurate wording would be:
Consensus is (1) to use the capitalization found in a clear and incontrovertible preponderance of usage in reliable sources, and (2) to try to rephrase sentences so they don't start with a term beginning with a lower case letter. Opinions are split on what to do if that sourcing requirement is not met (whether to use the trademark case or sentence case and common English usage), but MOS:TMRULES is pretty clear that we should stick to our usual sentence case and common English usage in that case, rather than follow the usage of trademark holders.
I and many others would greatly appreciate it, because if your current close stands it is going to lead to, at a guess, about 5 years of constant strife. One of the most frequent sources of heated but totally pointless debate at RM (and WT:AT, and WT:MOS, etc.) is people confused that WP:COMMONNAME is a style policy, and that if, say, some company or band spells their name "tHe cHichen d3PARTment" that WP has to as well. This will just dump gallon and gallons of fuel on that fire. Many thousands of articles would be subject to renewed attempts at RM to use "fancy style" because it's what a commercial entity or an entertainer wants for branding purposes.
PS: I do appreciate the effort that went into it. I know this is nuanced issue and it must have been difficult to wade through all that mess.
G, I came here for the same reason. COMMONNAME is just not relevant here, though there are a few editors who think it has something to say about style. As SMcC points out above, there are styling provisions to rely on here. No need to muddy the waters and encourage those who think we should let outsiders vote on WP styling. As a non-admin closer, you need to be more careful and base closing statements on policy and guidelines in light of editor opinions; please rephrase it to not drag in an irrelevant piece from title policy. Dicklyon (talk) 02:54, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Hi GRuban. I appreciate your effort to bring this dispute to a close, but unfortunately I don't think you followed the proper closure procedure. Your conclusions and arguments are very reasonable but they not appear to represent consensus. The points you make were not made by editors who participated in the RfC; thus you were not gauging consensus but instead adding your own (insightful) take. Would it be unreasonable for me to ask that you undo your close and add your arguments as an additional !vote? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:42, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Let me look... No, I'm quite sure I followed the reasoning of the participants, even naming them in each case, so I'm not sure why you think otherwise. Can you explain? --GRuban (talk) 12:22, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Your position is that the term "far right" can only be used in conjunction with "of the House Republicans" or similar qualifier. I don't think any of the participants in the RfC took that position. (Also, you cite BLP, which none of the participants did. But I understand that was more of a side point.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 15:55, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
I also don't think that you can dismiss half of the participants' arguments (which are essentially to enforce our verifiability policy as irrelevant or logically fallacious. We had 3 editors making reasonable arguments for yes, and 3 editors making reasonable arguments for no. I don't see how the RfC can be closed with anything other than "no consensus." --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:03, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Ah, I see now. Thank you Dr., thanks for explaining. I am afraid that in responding I'll have to risk being a bit long repetitive, since I had thought I had explained my close in short in my close; so I won't be able to explain further without repeating parts.
Unfortunately, we didn't have reasonable or equally valid arguments on each side. When one side is saying 2+2=4 and the other side is saying 2+2=5, those can not be equally valid arguments, they're directly contradictory, no more than one can be correct. Usually that doesn't happen, usually one cites a source that says X, and another cites a source that says Y, or one cites a policy A, while the other cites a guideline B, those can be both reasonable or equally valid arguments. Here, they aren't, they are directly contradictory.
The arguments on each side are based on the same policy, as you correctly write, verifiability as expressed in what reliable sources say. "Yes. We should follow what reliable sources say." - Ratemonth. "No. Reliable sources usually reserve that description for groups such as klansmen and neo-Nazis." - TFD. And so forth. People on each side are basing their arguments on what reliable sources say.
Then come the best example of the specific contradiction, "'far right' as used by sources (the far right of the Republican party)" from Toa Nidhiki05 directly answered by "the sources call them far-right. They don't say 'far right of the Republican party'" from Alexander Levian. This is a direct contradiction, they can't both be correct. And this isn't a minor matter, or one of a number of matters that the two sides differ on. This is the heart of the issue. From reading all the arguments presented, this single contradiction best describes the dispute - are the sources describing the Freedom Caucus as far right in an absolute sense, or as far right among the Republicans?
So I looked at the sources presented as arguments. I am actually allowed to do that. Really I am. They're part of the arguments presented. I didn't go out and find my own sources, I looked at the sources you presented. They overwhelmingly, without exception, discuss the "far rightness" of the Freedom Caucus in relationship to the rest of the House Republicans. Not close. Not debatably. Not equally validly. And these aren't just some sources that could have been cherry-picked by the other side, these are the sources you, the opener of the question brought up. In most cases it's even obvious in the titles:
The others are similar in this regard. Every single one only calls the group far right in the context of the House Republicans. Not as an absolute. Only as a relative.
This is not a statement that I can revert and give as my opinion, I don't have an opinion, I don't care two cents about this issue as such. I have no dog in this fight. I personally didn't know there was such a thing as the Freedom Caucus before looking at the RfC (though I knew there were some groups among House Republicans, I'm darned if I could actually name any of them).
But then, if I don't really care, why is this such a big deal? Why can't I just give in to you here, since you clearly do care, mark it "no consensus", since there are roughly equal numbers of good, devoted, knowledgeable editors on each side, and go on with my life, leaving this to those who do care?
Because it turns out this is a WP:BLP issue. Not just a little. A lot. Because, as TFD wrote, "Reliable sources usually reserve that description for groups such as klansmen and neo-Nazis." I didn't know, but I checked our article Far right which is a redirect to Far right politics. It surprised me. It says "The term is commonly used to describe Nazism,[1] neo-Nazism, Fascism, neo-Fascism and other ideologies or organizations that feature extreme nationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, racist, or reactionary views,[2] which can lead to oppression and genocide against groups of people on the basis of their alleged inferiority or their alleged threat to the nation or state.[3]" That's the third and last sentence of the lead, quoted in part in my close, and in full now. It surprised me because our article Far left, redirecting to Far left politics doesn't say anything nearly that bad. That's not just "people who want lower taxes and smaller government", or even "people who don't believe in abortion", or "people who don't believe in global warming", which does describe the right wing of the Republican party, and which, I'm sure, most of the Freedom Caucus would be fine with. But by putting the absolute "far right" label on this group, without the "Republican" qualifier, we really are grouping them in with, as TFD writes, "klansmen and neo-Nazis", or as our article writes, "oppression and genocide". That's a really horrible group to be in, not something we can afford to just throw around. Not a single one of those sources, again, found by you, says anything about the Freedom Caucus being klansmen, neo-Nazis, Fascists, neo-Fascists, genociders, or remotely similar. Without truly excellent sources saying that they are, we absolutely can not say that the Freedom Caucus is. They're living people, we can't just go calling them akin to Nazis if they're not. So it's not something we can leave as a "no consensus" issue, it might even be a blockable offense. Again, that surprised me. But that's what our far right article says. --GRuban (talk) 20:29, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the thoughtful response... I will be traveling for the next week and might not have the bandwidth to respond until later. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:32, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Clarification sought
Greetings. Could you, please, clarify what is meant by the quoted comment, in your decision in the Fleshlight RfC? "...with all due respect to The Gnome, the first sentence of the article clearly states the generic article is artificial vagina." I'm kinda stumped. Thanks in advance. -The Gnome (talk) 19:23, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
"Even if there were a case for including such an image in a general article on artificial genitalia ...Wolfowitz ; ... does Wikipedia even have an article such as Artificial genitalia? FreeKnowledgeCreator; Yes, dildo, by another name. -The Gnome (talk) 08:16, 23 February 2016 (UTC)" --GRuban (talk) 01:46, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Not that dildo isn't an article on artificial genitalia, just that in this context, clearly AV is the general version, as the first sentence says. --GRuban (talk) 02:16, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
OK, I now see what you meant. It seems Wikipedia does have articles on artificial genitalia, such as artificial vaginas, artificial penises, etc, but not one, all-inclusive, general article on artificial genitalia as such. The argument FreeKnowledgeCreator was making is evidently this: Since there is no Wikipedia article titled "artificial genitalia", any discussion about images in such an article would be null and void. When addressing a hypothetical ("...even if there were..."), it is easy to slip into weak arguments. But, in any case, I only wanted this point clarified. Thanks. -The Gnome (talk) 17:03, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for closing NOTREPOSITORY RFC. I clarified #3 of the policy to say "source text" instead of "source materials", reflecting the outcome. In the process I *just* noticed something, and you might want to add mention of it to the close. #3 of the policy said Complete copies of primary sources may go into Wikisource. Wikisource only accepts text. The idea that #3 of the policy was supposed to cover media files was literally impossible. Heh. The RFC author was desperately seeking an excuse to remove content they didn't like. Alsee (talk) 18:32, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
You're welcome! But, I'm afraid, I would rather not modify the close. It's true that WP:NOTREPOSITORY #3, the clause being discussed, mentions that sources could go to Wikisource, which only takes text, but it doesn't necessarily follow that Wikipedia must be a repository of whatever Wikisource doesn't take. Also, of course, it wasn't a major argument in the discussion, except perhaps as part of the technical "wrong section" argument which I did mention. --GRuban (talk) 18:53, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. In case it wasn't clear, I never argued that Wikipedia should be a repository for anything. I'm saying I believe the clear intent of the policy is that #1 covers external links, #2 covers internal links, #3 covers textual materials, and #4 covers images and media. Specifically, #4 Photographs or media files with no accompanying text. - we are not a repository to host naked media files for the sake of hosting them, but the Mona Lisa article isn't acting as a repository for this image of Mona Lisa. It isn't "repository" usage when images and media being utilized in a relevant article for the purpose of supporting that article.
Regarding short texts like Gettysburg Address: Excellent point, but to be honest I don't want to make the current situation more complicated. Maybe that can be done after things settle down. Alsee (talk) 17:26, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
Eh. He has a point when he writes "there are already plenty of images and this doesn't add much, if anything" - it does look a bit like you did stick the picture of ER pretty much everywhere you could think of, including articles that already have plenty of images. For example, that top one, Model (people), already has 20 images, most of female models posing, and one even of a photographer taking a picture of a female model posing, much like the one you were adding. And that bottom one, Balloon - dude. Are you really going to tell me that picture focused on the balloons? Not the naked woman?
That is not what I see when I look at the image. I sort of view Ratajkowski sculpturally. I saw an article that mentioned foil balloons, that only had one image of foil balloons. In most cases, the images and/or videos that I had depicted the content in ways that was superior to image content that preexisted it. Thus, it is an improvement to the article. Furthermore, the chance to interlink Ratajkowski's article is a benefit to the project which places value on interlinking.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:11, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Er.... no. Maybe another image of foil balloons would help, maybe not. The article is about a dozen different kinds of balloons, after all, not foil balloons specifically, so we don't want to focus on foil... More importantly, the picture isn't focusing on the balloons. And even more importantly the argument "Surely lots of people looking for information about balloons would benefit from a link to Emily Ratajkowski!" is not one I could make with a straight face. Since you have more experience with strenuous physical exercise, maybe you could manage it at first, but I still think you would be cracking a smile before completing 3 sets of 8 reps each. --GRuban (talk) 15:53, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
I am not joking. I really was just adding a little variety to balloon related articles that had no images depicting notable uses of balloons or notable users of balloons. I think a depiction of a notable use or user of balloons should have some priority over random depictions of balloons.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:58, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
ER's appearance in one pose out of half a dozen in one issue of one magazine makes a notable use of balloons? --GRuban (talk) 18:25, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
I'd recommend only finding the ones that you can make a clear argument "this specific image adds noticeably to the article, differently from all of the others", and then talking it over with him, perhaps you can reach a compromise. It would be different if you were adding an image to an article that didn't have any, then it would be clearly useful. That's what I normally do, I look for articles that didn't have photos, such as Tony Kelly (photographer). If you're adding an image that shows a vital aspect of the article subject in a way no other does, that would also be useful. (Perhaps you can make that argument with Hair roller, you can say that shows the rollers in use in hair, which is different from them just standing there.) But when you're adding just another image to an article that already has plenty, including one or more very similar images, I can, unfortunately, see why Velella might think that you're thinking more about building the fame of a model you like a lot, than you are thinking of making that specific article better. --GRuban (talk) 02:15, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Well, you can try to make that argument to Velella if you like. I won't do it myself, but won't stop you as such. But you'll likely have more success if you only pick the 2-4 cases where the picture you add depicts things in a much better/clearer, etc., way, rather than just a little. If you do that, and make the argument on a talk page - either the respective article's or your or Velella's user talk page - rather than relying on reverts, then maybe I'll even back you; I could with the hair roller article, as above, for example, but couldn't with balloons or model. (I haven't really looked at the other 17 or so.) --GRuban (talk) 15:53, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
The model case is much easier than you suggest. The article may have 20 different images of models. However, the majority of them are just head shots. The image at issue actually depicts a model at work with a photographer. It is the only image in the article that shows a model at work with a photographer. It is in no way redundant to the other 20.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:55, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Third from the top also depicts a model at work with a photographer. Anyway, as I wrote, I won't argue against you, mostly since I think Velella will be even harder to convince than I. But if you can convince him, that will be fine by me. --GRuban (talk) 18:25, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I think so, it takes up enough of the body that it deserves a mention in the lead. How about: "Her claim to being a feminist has been both supported and disputed because of her erotic modeling."? End of the last lead paragraph.
On a side note, I don't like " No sooner could Morgan state that "Feminism Is Dead", than ...", at the end of the Advocacy and activism section, it's overly dramatic. Can we change it to "After Morgan wrote "Feminism Is Dead", ..." --GRuban (talk) 13:50, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
It looks like the picture was uploaded again, this time by a GreenUnikorn who claims to be the creator and producer of the show. It still looks like a copyrighted image but it is used throughout the official website (recently as a Twitter icon update). Is there a way to investigate whether the actual creator is indeed releasing the photo as a public shareable image? AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 23:56, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
Talk:David Irving
Hi, I've just reverted your closure of the RfC. It's not the case that "No objections to the proposed addition" were made. The reason the RfC attracted few comments was that it was an attempt to restart a discussion of material which had been previously added to the article, removed, and rejected on the talk page. Please see Talk:David Irving/Archive 9#Höfle Telegram material. I did not comment in the RfC as it was a complete rehash of this previous discussion, and I'm sure that others felt the same. Regards, Nick-D (talk) 10:36, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
By the way, my edit summary was much crankier than it should have been, especially as there's no expectation that closers will look for archived discussions and I should have commented in the RfC earlier to note that it was a rehash: sorry for that. Nick-D (talk) 11:30, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
Yes, you are right, you absolutely should have commented in the RfC itself, while it was running. But I won't stand on principle; as there wasn't a lot of participation, your objection will suffice to keep the discussion as lacking consensus. Thanks. --GRuban (talk) 13:38, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
Let me know if you want a hand. I have access to Newspapers.com so have some sources from 1985. I'm currently running down my second free trial on this and am resisting purchasing a subscription so I can resist JPL's reign of terror on these pageant articles. It's going to be hard when it's over :( PageantUpdater (talk) 23:29, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes, please! Can you specifically look at more by Michael Kiefer in the Arizona Republic about Tina Plakourakis and Chili Davis? I've got one article, but I'm pretty sure there is at least one more, about the $350K that Davis paid Plakourakis after a civil suit for battery, and there may be even more than that. Secondarily, could you look for Tina Plakourakis in relationship with Brian Friedman, sometimes called Brian Fred Friedman, who was a Hollywood producer who apparently ran off to France with a large sum of money and eventually died there? I've only got one sentence, but it says the SEC accused her of making $275K out of that, and it's been repeated almost verbatim in numerous sources, for example.... and apparently the charges were dropped, eventually... maybe ... so this would be only secondary to the Chili Davis story, if you can only dig for one. --GRuban (talk) 00:52, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
User:JohnPackLambert
Thought I'd draw your attention to this which I find utterly pathetic. He's done it plenty of times before and clearly lacks a spine. I've undone it but that won't last two minutes. PageantUpdater (talk) 01:56, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
He's feeling picked-on. Let's not call him names. The important thing is that he has only nominated 3 articles for deletion since the 28th, so he has likely heard the complaint. That's all we can really ask for. Now we look for reliable sources showing notability for the articles ... and likely a guideline.
See, he is not a vandal, he is a good faith editor, who, in good faith, does not believe that beauty pageant winners are notable. There isn't a guideline saying there are. I think if there were, he would be among the first to defend the people who met it (and would keep nominating those who didn't). So we need a guideline. I think the precedent to follow is that of sportspeople, who are similar in many ways - competitions, often by region or by country, where the people often work for several years to compete for the award, which they also often do in their teens or early 20s, then often sink into obscurity afterwards. We've made a rule that an Olympic competitor, or a professional in a national league is notable. What's the equivalent for pageants? Surely not all, but likely some? We need an WP:NPAGEANT. --GRuban (talk) 02:23, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Highlighting the use of women as sex objects, via "beauty pageants", must be on the very edge of notability, if notable at all. Tony(talk) 02:25, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
GRuban fair enough but he's ignoring GNG and many relevant AFDS. And it's a shame there isn't some policy to prevent deletion of reasonable discussion from a talk page. I'm not going to pretend I like it. And Tony I'm not even going to go there. "highlighting the use of women as sex objects", seriously? PageantUpdater (talk) 02:27, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
I've interacted with Johnpacklambert enough to know that he is quite self-righteous and reacts to criticism quite poorly. He always uses the most incendiary language possible to describe any criticism of he and what he stands for (he's called me a bigot on numerous occasions, for example). He has a blatant disregard for policy if he conflicts with his own view of things (he was blocked some time ago for smearing a BLP and, for the life of me, I don't understand why that block was lifted). In this case, he has his own special blanket notability guideline: that all beauty pageant winners aren't notable (the flip-side of it is that he believes all mid-level leaders of the Mormon Church are notable, even if the only coverage of them comes in papers and websites controlled by the Church and therefore aren't independent). However, I say wait until he starts another batch of AfDs. Then I'm afraid you've got to take him to ANI. Get diffs of as many people as possible taking issue with the mass AfDing on his page (the three of us, and I think there's one or two other). Show as many AfDs as possible that were clearly balderdash. pbp03:12, 1 September 2016 (UTC) P.S.: @BrownHairedGirl: He's at it again.
I feel at a disadvantage because I'm not totally up on the policies we're dealing with - I've been away a number of years. JPL and the KCoffman guy keep bringing up BIO1E. Copying from my comment on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kristi Addis I'm struggling to understand why this is in play. One of the three conditions to be met is "If the event is not significant or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented". The Miss Teen USA or Miss USA or Miss America pageant is a significant event, thus this does not apply. I agree with Thaddeus' reasoning here. Can you offer any advice on this??? --- PageantUpdater (talk) 03:20, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
And see also JPL's comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Peyton Brown (2nd nomination) - my emphasis: "The reason we should not follow the December 2015 precedent was actually explained in the nomination. I have no idea why I put Georgia when I knew this was Alabama. I knew one of the papers was from Huntsville, which I know is in Alabama. However the fact is that they were articles related to the pageant. For state pageant winners we should require sources that cover the person without any regard to their winning a state pageant" .... uh??? Thoughts? --- PageantUpdater (talk) 03:21, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Provide diffs to all the people telling him on his talk page that he's off-base, plus links to some of the worst AfDs. pbp03:49, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
thanks. Jana Murrell now add-ed too. I'm heading to work and won't be able to deal with this for a number of hours. Which concerns me as to how many more afds there will be by then --- PageantUpdater (talk) 04:00, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Hi, wondering if you could help with the image on the Ariel Levy page as you have been uploading one from her Kelly Writers House talk and I keep removing it because she is a friend of mine and she does not like that photo at all and would like to replace it.
I seem to be unable to upload photos at this point in my wiki user career. Would you be willing to upload a new one to replace the one that's up there now? She would greatly appreciate it & I can provide the desired photo. Mhyams74 (talk) 15:04, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Sure! The simplest thing currently seems to be to use the form at https://tools.wmflabs.org/relgen/ that makes an email that you send to permissions-commons@wikimedia.org that says that you own the rights to the image and release it under a free license; you can either attach the image to the email, or upload it to Wikimedia Commons separately, using this https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:UploadWizard . Let me send you an email, then you'll have my email address, and you can copy me on the email, and I'll follow up on the image being uploaded, and put on the article. --GRuban (talk) 18:58, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Ariel Levy - cont'd
Hi GRuban,
appreciate your help with the image upload instructions. I did upload the desired photo to the wikimedia commons section and sent the release email.
This whole process is so confusing and I'm not even really sure how to talk to you on this site. I've never experienced such an un-user friendly site. I liked it better when I was only a wiki reader.
Anyway, I believe I have to wait for them to permit the photo.
Aha, I see it now. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ariel_Levy.jpg, right? Just uploaded today? (13 minutes before your message here, in fact?) Then we can put it on the article, while the OTRS folks are reading the email. We can put a {{subst:OP}} tag on the image to indicate that you wrote and sent an email; I'll do that. (It'll make me feel like I'm helping! :-) ) It can take a month or two for them to get to the email, but the image will be there in the article until then. --GRuban (talk) 15:11, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
Looks like the lady herself was able to upload the desired photo - thank you for checking in! If you ever see the Kelly Writers photo get uploaded again and wish to change it she'd be grateful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhyams74 (talk • contribs) 14:21, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
@Mhyams74: Unfortunately, if it was the lady herself, she doesn't seem to have proven it was her, so I suspect the images will be deleted soon. More on that on User talk:Arielvlevy#Thanks for the images!. If you can get her to do what it says there, either in an email from ariellevy.com or by putting a page up on that site that we can link to, we can probably keep the images. --GRuban (talk) 18:07, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for input on gender bias - Moon
Keep pushing, the stone is moving. It is unfortunate that only one person can stonewall and put so much drag on such things, despite a long established concensus on the subject. Zedshort (talk) 15:03, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
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