User talk:Dúnadan

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Archive 1 (2005-2007)

dude

why would you revert my edit on the mexico city article? The numbers there are completely made up (if you don't think so, show some source!). Why do you keep adding false information to wikipedia? Are you some kind of vandal or something? STOP messing up wikipedia

Demography of Mexico

Dear Dunadan I agree with you, the only reason I made the recently edits is because I noticied that in Demography of Mexico there was not a poverty index that is why I added this source. I should 've added the standard of life and poverty part into Economy of Mexico.

Yes, it is true that I mostly make edits in argentina's articles might be patriotism or something I don't know, but more recently I am seeking to make edits in other articles besise Argentina's, (eg demographics and history of Uruguay, Mexico etc). Nonetheless (your key word) I still remember the "heated discutions" that we had but well, lets leave the past behind and why not work together as you say on different articles.

Fercho85 (talk) 22:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

moving on

Mmhhh, I see you keep tracking my edits. Dont know if I should thank you for your attention and close monitoring or begin worrying seriously about your somewhat stalking presence. After all this underserved attention, you shouldnt be surprised if I referred to you like "the police" all the same...

By now I have to fully agree with BNS comment on how worrying your use of sources can get. The last example is the one you brought in PPCC talk page about my edits in Spanish Civil War. This is what I wrote in that talk page:

I am not very much for using the English term "National" but keeping the original "Nacionales" which has a rather impossible translation in English (but, for sure, that is not "nationalist").

As I said, actually I would support better keeping the original nacional(es) above any other wording,(...)

And this is how you summarize it Interestingly enough you have insisted on keeping a word that doesn't mean the same thing in English in other articles [nationals] but were very purist when it came to "countries" That is pretty much the opposite of what I wrote. If I can say something in my favour is that in both articles I have been consistent and asked for keeping the names in the original language to avoid the tricks of a less than perfect English translation. Being my position crystal clear in SCW talk page, I guess I can't assume good faith from you anymore when what you just did in PPCC is twisting it in a way to mean exactly the opposite of what I said. Not nice, naughty boy.

Let me say that, some weeks ago, your point used to be better articulated, but lately, when you have been challenged thoroughly your examples and some of your reasoning started to sound in between over-the-top and ludicrous (this -ludicrous- is a word you have used oftentimes when referring to other contributor's work, including my own, so I hope you accept it going in your direction, too) I'm talking, for example, of the TOESL thing or when you said that "oftentimes" doesnt mean "sometimes" (but who said that, in the first place???) Moreover, back in the day you accused me of blackmailing because I reached out for the tag as the last mean to at least salvage some of my legitimate concerns while now I realize that your insistence on the "compromise" thing was some kind of black market offer dangerously taking the situation down to a mere article ownership to be solved round the corner with a good ol' "compromise" splitting the neighbourhood in two.

I will blame it on the excesses of the Christmas season and hope you resume the good work you made in articles such as Autonomous Communities instead of entrenching in positions just because you wont admit you also have a bias (relax: we all do, me too) and you wont always get away with it.

Now, since I'd like to practice what I'm preaching you, here's the self-criticism. I guess I have part of the blame in your lowering standard. I am afraid that, since when I perceive you getting thick as a brick you certainly frustrate me to the max, my ironic addressings didnt sit well with your -you may want to admit it, if only to yourself- less than flexible persona. It is good that BNS came to the rescue of us, because I admit myself being routinarily pissed off at the sight of self-righteousness. He has the nerves (no wonder: he's English) to take it cool and bother to explain in a relaxed manner what, otherwise, I can only produce irony about and this can be sometimes poignant. And for that I have to ask for apologies.

I wouldnt bother to write all this to you and being straight to you if, after all, I didnt think you are an overall good editor (used to think you were more than just good before these unfortunate things I mentioned here, but I trust you'll be back for good). And dont get me wrong, I wouldnt have never been this straight in a public talk page: it's not my style to try to get other users in trouble apart from particular edits which I may disagree with.

Things in written tend to go a bit disparaged and I guess that didnt help us, either.

Anyway, I know it is not your style to let the others say the last word, but when you reply to this, I'd appreciated it if you got to the general picture instead of the nasty details, otherwise we will never finish. You can be similarly straight to me if you want, I'd just appreciate if you did so in a manner that doesnt revive old grudges, so that we can finally move on.

Ah, if you want a hint of my next edit without having to check my "contributions" ticker such as you are doing lately, that should be something regarding Autonomous Communities and how, initially, they were presented in such a vague way as it could turn out that only the so-called "historic" ones reached out for autonomy if the rest had desired to remain in an administrative only (not political) autonomy. It's that what they call el principio dispositivo? My law notes are getting past behind me and I'll have to recheck the whole story. Hope you help me with the particular wording and references. Feel free to work it out yourself, actually, if you fancy.

Salut. Mountolive _{our unsleepable friend gets the message on an ill wind} 18:25, 31 December 2007 (UTC) 18:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the things you say in your last message make sense, others make less sense (in my opinion, that is). But overall thank you for not responding in an 'escalation' manner. Maybe we both have had enough of that, or we will, hopefully sometime soon.

Now, I dont want to follow up here or elsewhere any particular discussion for the time being (actually, I wouldnt like to be back to those anymore) but the thing is that I notice the 'up your arse' thing still lingers on.

Ok, then; if that is going to be -and looks like yes- a serious handicap in our relationship, I think we shouldnt forget what are those things you be stuck. Those are your comments calling me (or my own comments, doesnt make much of a difference) "blackmailer", "ludicrous", "not intelligent", "most of all, unethical" and the like.

Looks like you did, but let's just not lose sight of this, Dunadan.

All it takes from my side to ask for excuses I guess is you striking those paragraphs. Note that I am not demanding you to do that, will be fine if you won't, because I am not making a case of those anymore such as you seem to be making a case of my answer to those. But I think your comments in the first place are no less out of whack as my own and, if we are to be fair, we both have to make some effort. Let's call this one, yes, a "compromise" ;)

Act freely, do not strike them if you feel they are deserved and you'd say the same thing over again. Even though I did find them truly offensive, they are a thing of the past for me now.

What I would really like you to strike, if you dont mind, is that line of yours I quoted above regarding my "purist" stance in PPCC compared to the same in SCW, because that one comment is plainly false. I'm not saying I am not accepting your explanation on why you made such an unfortunate comment (not following talk page etc) but, next time, given our bad relationship, please try not being that reckless again and, this time, please amend yourself there. I think it's necessary. Mountolive _{our unsleepable friend gets the message on an ill wind} 11:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Will do it myself if you dont act with the bolded part. And I would keep it into consideration the fact that you didnt amend yourself after having placed reckless comments which have been proved not only false but tendentious even when you are given the opportunity of so doing.

p.s. it's sad that we wont come closer but instead you've seem to apparently decide to stalk whatever my edits in a controversial approach, but this is just wikipedia anyway...and, who knows, maybe one morning we see a brighter day. In the meantime, cheers. Mountolive _{our unsleepable friend gets the message on an ill wind} 19:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Probablement n'estàs fart

Tot i que sóc plenament conscient del que poden arribar a cansar les discussions de la Viquipèdia, m'agradaria que fessis una ullada a aquesta discussió. T'he de confessar que la teva metodologia m'ha influenciat molt, malgrat que, per altra part, és la que marca la Viquipèdia. He après que no es tracta d'imposar cap punt de vista sinó de reflectir-los tots per garantir un punt de vista neutral. En això, he après molt de tu. Ui, no vull que sembli que t'ensabono... Si et ve de gust i tens forces, t'estaré molt agraït. --Pmmollet^Talk 20:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ei no pateixis, ho entenc. Et vaig escriure en un moment d'una certa desesperació, però finalment seguint "el teu mètode" hem aconseguit arribar a una solució de compromís. Val a dir, que s'ha de tenir molta paciència i t'has de sentir a dir cada cosa que Déu n'hi do. Però bé, al final el resultat ha sigut prou satisfactori. --Pmmollet^Talk 10:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Països Catalans

Bon dia, Dúnadan.

Escolta, no entenc del tot aquesta edició [1]

Estic al corrent de que penses que l'article en qüestió és massa centrat al voltant del sentit polític del terme. Com ja saps, jo no tinc cap problema en que hi portes coses al respecte del sentit lingüistic, si penses que és addient 'treure-li ferro' al sentit polític. Tot i això, és obvi també que l'ús que li dona al terme, per exemple, ERC o els altres grups polítics nacionalistes és un i el lingüístic és un altre. No hi veig motius per desdibuixar aquesta distinció. Al contrari, s'ha de deixar ben clara per evitar confusions.

Perque, almenys des de el meu punt de vista, si el que volem és descarregar l'article d'un cert approach, el que primer s'hauria de fer és deixar ben palés quins són els dos principals approaches -sense esborrar res- i des d'eixos fonaments, és més fàcil treballar per donar-li als dos sentits del terme la relevància que cadascú puga tindre, no? Això és el que la meua edició preten.

Què en penses? Pots respondre aquí mateix. Mountolive _{all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair} 12:00, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bon dia, o més aviat, Bona tarda Mountolive,

Entenc molt bé, i estic d'acord amb tu, que hem de descarregar l'article de qualsevol approach i biaix que pugui tenir, i alhora presentar tots els punts de vista de manera neutral. I, no pretenc amagar cap approach, com dius, ni l'ús del concepte. Tanmateix no vull barrejar definicions amb usos del concepte. Com tu ho has dit, una cosa és la definició i una altra l'ús del concepte.

La definició dels Països Catalans en l'àmbit acadèmic (incloent-hi el GREC) es refereix als territoris de parla i cultura catalanes. Hi ha dues maneres de definir-ne els territoris: de manera estricta, els territoris on es parla el català o de manera àmplia, els territoris on el català té caràcter [co]oficial. De manera anàloga, la Francophonie inlcou tots els països on el francès és la llengua [co]oficial, tot i que això inclou territoris la població dels quals no parla el francès (p. ex. la part anglòfona del Canadà, les illes de parla criolla del Carib, i els diversos Estats de l'Àfrica). En altres paraules, les dues referències (estricta o àmplia) són lingüístiques i culturals i no polítiques. (La Francophonie no té cap "sentit polític").

Per altra banda, hi ha d'assagistes que atribueixen un caràcter nacional comú als Països Catalans, i diferenciat de la resta d'Espanya. Aquesta atribució no té res a veure amb les fronteres territorials; el caràcter nacional pot atribuir-se als territoris estrictes o als territoris en el sentit ampli. (Per exemple, Mèxic es defineix com a nació [només una] pluricultural [moltes llengües i cultures]). I, finalment, hi ha polítics catalans, valencians i balears que propugnen per la independència dels Països Catalans, en base al [suposat?] caràcter nacional, malgrat l'oposició de molts sectors dels mateixos Països Catalans.

Llavors, al meu parer, hi ha tres approaches (apropaments? haha, un fals amic potser?) per a estudiar els Països Catalans:

• la definició del concepte com a territori lingüístic i cultural (que pot correspondre a dues definicions territorials)
• l'atribució del caràcter nacional als mateixos territoris definits lingüísticament (que pot correspondre a les dues definicions territorials)
• l'ús del concepte amb fins polítics (que pot correspondre a les dues definicions territorials)

Per això, he eliminat la frase "in a politic sense" de la segona definició territorial. No vull barrejar "defincions" amb "usos". M'explico? Si qualifiquem la definició lingüística o si li atribuïm un caràcter polític, llavors l'article comportarà un biaix polític inherent des de la definició lingüística.

Què en penses de tot això?

--the Dúnadan 23:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bones Dúnadan,

Mhhh...te n'adones de que el que has fet revertint-me al cap de ¿2 minuts? no és la millor idea a l'hora de tindre un esperit cooperatiu? Te n'adones del potencial de edit-warring que això pot tindre? Te n'adones de que no he tocat quasi res de la teua edició anterior, soles allò que pense és més crític (i que per això no he tocat allò que pense que has fet millorant el consens previ)? Te n'adones que li demanaves a Maurice que respectés la seua paraula?

As such és clar com l'aigua (clar i català, if you may) i la redacció addicional que estàs estibant en una intro que, per cert, ja ha esdevingut massa llarga, no és NPOV.

És per això que he de tornar a la versió anterior. Espere que comprengues els meus arguments i....no tornem-hi...jo encara no en tinc ganes, la veritat... Mountolive _{all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair} 17:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Names of the Valencian Community

Com que pense que una de les raons per la nostra mala relació i 'piques' és açò del pensat-i-fet (o pensat i repensat...amb una mica de mala baba, que és encara pitjor) si et sembla, et contestaré demà per contribuir a la serenitat. En qualsevol cas, intente predre-m'ho més tranquilament, així que pense que aquest tema en concret no ens donarà massa la murga.

En canvi, si t'he de ser sincer, pense que el teu darrer post a 'names of the' no va en la bona direcció. He fet un esforç allà per tal de sonar 'cool' i treure-li ferro al tema, perque, de veritat, vull -necessite- passar pàgina amb tu, urgentment. Tot i això, a la vista d'eixe post teu, pense que o bé el meu esforç no ha sigut bo i m'he expressat malament o bé tú encara no has canviat el xip del tot, o les dues coses.

El cas és que em continues sonant unfriendly, em continues sonant tancat. Ho has revertit tot, matxo, tot. Primer dius que això s'ha d'explicar a la talk page. Vale. Ho explique... t'ho passes pel forro. Que sí, que sí, que jo no dic que tot el que jo he fet siga necesàriament perfecte, pero, "tio Dúnadan", de veritat penses que l'article té millor cara amb el "Apóstol de Indias", el "combit cheneral y particular", "la tia Rafaela" i la "Verche Amparadora"?...et sembla tan important tindre allà al bell mig del text això del "grandson of aunt Rarela"? (Rarela?? i la gent que ho puga llegir -si ho penses, ningú... tret de 'la penyeta'- en plan "was it grandson or was it aunt", en què quedem?) Això, que és només un exemple, de veres et sembla tan absolutamente bàsic per l'article que no transigiràs amb un edit traent-ho del bell mig del texte?

En casos com aquest no puc evitar pensar que el que jo puga editar et provoqués una certa urticària davant de la qual reacciones. Això t'ho has de curar, matxo, perque jo estic disposat a fer esforços en la meua actitud (i després podrem discutir tot el que vullgues sobre el contingut concret) però vull vore correspondències per la teua part o no em paga la pena.

L'única manera que se m'acut per que em demostres que no és així, que pots viure amb les meues edicions, almenys les més 'light', és que demostres una mica de flexibilitat, una poc de cintura.....perdona'm, en cap cas estic en plan xungo, et repetisc que he canviat el xip... però és que ho mire i ho remire i encara no em puc creure que hages tornat a posar eixa cita en contes de portarla al peu de pàgina. Collons, encara que et semblés del tot necessària, hauries de fer un esforç de comprensió dels demés, que segurament no la troben tan fonamental. I no estic parlant de mi...i si no em creus, ja vorem què passa a la talk page...

Si em dius que et sembla que tot el que jo he fet a eixa secció és incorrecte, que lo de la DRAE tampoc et val, en fi, res, doncs...no sé ja què fer, perque, insistisc, això m'ho he plantejat més com un minor edit que altra cosa, ho he explicat en la talk page, he portat referències...però, res. Matxo, estàs segur que, a poc que feres un esforç, no hi ha quelcom amb el que pugues transigir?...

Espere que sí.

En fi, ja en parlarem.

Què tal a Houston (Dallas?) si ets a Houston et puc recomanar un garito de marxa guay al Uptown Park guay...Mountolive _{all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair} 01:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Spain

Bon dia Dúnadan. El primer, agrair-te molt el canvi d'actitud sobre el que parlàvem abans.

Com que la comunicació està funcionant pel moment, millor et faig saber el que pense abans d'editar. Estic parlant de l'última edició que has fet a Spain.

No és gens important, és una qüestió de detall (però ja saps que the devil is in the details ;) T'explique: desde el meu punt de vista no es pot parlar de "devolution" per les comunitats autònomes perque aquelles inclueixen tota una sèrie de territores com siga La Rioja, Castella La Manxa, Madrid, Castella Lleó, Múrcia, Extremadura, Cantabria (fins i tot les illes Canàries i, potser, les Balears)....cap dels quals mai ha exercit cap mena de poder local, diguem-li històric (à la Regne de València) o més recent però legalment reconegut (à la Andalusia).

Jo en principi treuria lo de 'devolution' basat en això que et comente. 'Devolution', si no sóc errat, és un terme molt britànic que s'aplica bé als territoris històrics tipus Gales o Escòcia (Anglaterra mateixa també, tot i que l'opinió pública anglesa ha refusat cap mena de 'devolution')

In my view, the Spanish case is different and there would be nothing to be "devolved" if this regional self government never existed in the first place but, actually, has been created ex-novo like in most cases mentioned above.

Comments? Mountolive _{all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair} 11:22, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bona tarda Mountolive,

El que hi havia abans de les meves edicions era: "[with]... the arrival of democracy, political autonomy were established." Al començament, només volia corregir l'error gramatical evident, però, això de l'"establiment de l'autonomia política", almenys en anglès, no té gaire sentit. El que es va establir és un "estat de les autonomies" ("state of autonomies"?) basat en la concessió d'autonomia del govern central a les regions [i nacionalitats] que integraven l'Estat. Sí, és clar, no totes les regions van rebre l'autonomia perduda.

Tanmateix, el que s'entén com a devolution no requereix que la regió que rep l'autonomia, l'hagi tinguda abans o que n'hagi gaudit històricament. "Devolution" es defineix com a "the delegation of authority (especially from a central to a regional government)".[2], [3].

El que passa és que "devolution" i "devolve" són dos exemples claríssims d'un "fals amic" o false cognate. El castellanoparlant associa "devolve" amb "devolver". Però, en anglès, "devolve" significa (1) delegar responsabilitats, (2) transmetre per successió, (3) succeir (cap a baix, o negativament) i (4) degeneració (de "de[s]" i "evolve", és a dir "des-evolucionar"). [4]. Si t'agrada la filologia, aquesta és l'evolució del mot: [Middle English devolven, to transfer, from Old French devolver, to confer, ascribe, from Latin dēvolvere, to roll down, fall to : dē-, de- + volvere, to roll]. No sé perquè el mot va adquirir una connotació o definició diferent en castellà.

Per això, els "papers" en anglès que estudien l'"estat de les autonomies" d'Espanya, parlen de "devolution". De fet el concepte de "devolution" no és merament britànic (potser es va originar al Regne Unit), però avui dia és un concepte global. (Devolution in Russia, Devolution in NT, Canada, Devolution in Spain, [5]). L'autonomia no es "retorna", es "transmet" (it is devolved).

--the Dúnadan 03:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tens raó, Dúnadan, estava totalment confós amb el false friend aquest. Gràcies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mountolive (talk • contribs) 13:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bones.

Ei, Dúnadan, si realment estigueres (com "algú" ha dit :P) "avorrit" deixa'm que t'oferisca una tasca per matar la fam: traduïr EUPV a l'anglés (sembla que no existeix l'article encara) i des d'eixe article seria interessant crear també el de Iniciativa pel País Valencià (que també existeix a es.wiki).

Escolta, ara, dintre d'aquest calvari rutinari auto-imposat, em toca tindre-la muntada amb el Toniher, aquí tot i que imagine que el teu punt de vista és proper al dels teus colegues al Catalan-speaking countries wikiproject, com que a tu t'interessa prou més que a mi el tema diguem-ne..."legal" de l'ús de fonts, m'agradaria sentir la teua opinió al respecte.

Fora d'això, en general, mira, t'he de dir que la cosa a vegades m'arriba a preocupar amb alguns dels wikipedistes que venen de Catalunya (hi siguen al CSC wikiproject o no) perque hi arriben molt ideologitzats, defensant coses com allò del "Catalan Sea" etc que no fan molt bon "servici" (em sembla que aquesta paraula és oficial ja en valencià ;) al projecte aquí. Si eixos editors fóren com tu o l'Xtv seria collonut, perque vosaltres defenseu unes coses, però almenys sabeu el que és incompatible amb la neutralitat estricta, allò que ja entra més aïna a formar part del punt de vista ideològic de cadascú. I això vosaltres no ho tracteu d'imposar, però d'altres....en fi, no se ben be perquè et faig aquesta reflexió final, perque, obviamente, tú no ets responsable de res d'això... Mountolive _{all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair} 12:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, gràcies, no cal que poses la meua pàgina a les teues pàgines vigilades (scary! :P) Per cert, gràcies per la teua resposta tranquila: després d'haver escrit el meu post, em vaig penedir un poc, vaig pensar que igual sonava massa inflamatori. Gràcies per haver aportat serenitat esta vegada.

De fet, després del que ha passat a Spain, on heu clavat un gol per tot l'escaire (i damunt m'han dit que estic 'esbiaixat'...hòstia, quina paraulota, no? ;) pense que ja és hora de que em prenga un descans...i quant més llarg, millor. Ja és la segona vegada en que m'he atipat. Ojalá aquesta siga l'última, perque la meua xicona ja està farta de wikipedia :D

Per si això no fóra suficient, hi ha els Toniher boys, que venen amb una embranzida considerable (memorable l'últim post a PPCC)...encara no me n'anat, però...què serà el que em trobe quan torne? "Catalan sky"? "Castelldefelsian Sea"? "Francesc Macià's Sea"? (he sailed there once or twice: properly referenced ;)...o fins i tot Dúnadan as an en.wiki administrator??? :D (això últim és conya, eh?!)

Ah per cert, haviem quedat en que et posaries en contacte amb un administrador, no amb un fulano que va ser bloquejat un any sencer a [José Luís Rodríguez Zapatero] per imposar que ZP és una barreja d'allò millor en Jesucrist, Gandhi, Churchill, Aristòtil et al. ...també pense que l'han bloquejat un grapat de voltes més en altres articles....huevos, Dúnadan, almenys em concediràs que hi ha una diferència entre un administrador i açò que has portat, no?! ;)

No patisques, però: ara com ara, em la bufa soberanament, estic entrant al mood de descompressió. No descarte un 'rally' final d'edicions abans de predre'm unes vacances, però la decisió ja està presa, i això és el més difícil. No vullguera ser com Solbes que, com diu la cançó (adaptada): se va, se va, se va, se va y todavía no se ha ido, però, per quan arribe el moment, pots alforra-te el "repensa-t'ho" etc...més aïna el que hauries de fer és aprofitar el temps que estiga fora ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mountolive (talk • contribs) 22:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No cregues que jo el tinc massa controlat tampoc, però, sí, certament el 'pájaro' del que parlàvem no sembla el més indicat. Pel poc que'l conec, té un molt fort 'bias' esquerrà, "anti-imperialista" etc...si dius que el paio està actiu a articles sobre centreamerica (de fet diu que viu allà) fins i tot seria bo que el controlares un poc, perque, lamentablement, imagine que països tipus Guatemala o Nicaragua (els altres PPCC, Països Centreamericans jajaja :P) en tenen poc wikipedistes locals i hi és més fàcil "clavar-la" sense que et controlen, tot i que igual m'equivoque.

En quant a eixos suposats atacs, no t'equivoques (ho dic de bon rotllo, eh? que hem d'anar amb peus de plom amb el que ens diem mutuament ;) perque estic parlant de 'you' com a vosaltres, no com a "you, Dúnadan".

En qualsevol cas, al respecte del comentari sobre els sneaky, et demanaria un poc de paciència: òbviament editar a segons quins articles et pot cremar una mica (m'encanta un recent d'en Maurice que diu "I'm browned off, BROWNED OFF!" jajaja a tots en passa en algun moment, no?) Aleshores puc eixir amb una cosa així com allò d'sneaky i, potser, no és d'aplicació a este cas concret o a tots els usuaris referits. My apologies anyway.

En quant a allò dels bias i insecurities, ahi ja sí que pense que derrapes un poc si et fa sentir agreujat: tu mateix has dit en moltes ocasions que tots en tenim biases, així que no pense que m'haja de 'tallar' de parlar dels biases de ningú, ni del teu ni del meu ni del de la Tia Rafaela. En quant a les inseguretats, òbviament m'estic referint a les que van associades al bias del que es tracte, no a les inseguretats personals que cadascú puga tindre.

No m'apetix parlar ara del tema Spain. Ja en parlarem un altre dia.

Gràcies. Mountolive _{all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair} 23:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RE: Layout of Article

the Dúnadan; thanks, although we got a collaborator who reversed part of what i did, particularly Transportation and Cities and metropolitan areas, I'm in contact with said person to se how we can work this out!, please review if you like and give me pointers on how i can resolve situation!

In regards to your other points, «all correct», they should be taken care off – Sincerely – Moebiusuibeom-en (talk) 21:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Catalan Sea

Agraeixo la teva participació amb la discussió relacionada amb el Catalan Sea [6]. Et demanaria, si us plau, una intervenció en el mateix sentit (o com tu creguis millor) en la discussió a Mediterranean Sea [7]. --Marcbel (talk) 13:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Translating help

Hey there, com va? so I noticed you look quite qualified to help me with a little translating problem, if you have time. I've been working on Confederación Nacional del Trabajo, which was kind of sloppily translated from the Spanish article, and have hit a bump. I'm trying to find sources for the section mentioning comarcal federations, and all that I can find is this: "Cuando varios pueblos constituyan la Federación Comarcal, la cotización correspondiente a la Local debe pasar a la Primera." It's from the 6th Article of the ESTATUTOS DE LA C.N.T. at this link. I can't really figure what the "Primera" being referred to is. Can you shed some light? Salut! Murderbike (talk) 18:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Copying section Mexican Crime and Corruption

Hi Dúnadan:

I just wanted to say that, as far as I recall, when I copied from section Mexican Crime and Corruption to the newer section at the bottom of Talk:Mexico, I copied everything that was there.

You added more discussion afterwards, which was not copied.

Cheers, Wanderer57 (talk) 14:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Spain Article

Hi Dúnadan

I've made what I think is a reasonable compromise proposal to solve the wording of the section on the Madrid bombings. Mountolive seems fairly determined to preserve the part abut the elections being "stolen". I would suggest that you pursue your suggestion of looking for outside administrative intervention on the issue before it becomes a bigger dispute. Southofwatford (talk) 14:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One other thing - it seems that Mountolive is now trying to involve in this discussion another editor with whom I had a long dispute which I have no desire whatsoever to revive. For that reason alone, it may be better for you to take the lead in seeking assistance. Southofwatford (talk) 15:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vote

User:Earthbendingmaster/Poll Basketball110 Clinton, Obama, McCain, Huckabee, Romney, or Paul? 00:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

White People

Thanks for your note. I new there was a counter argument just waitng for me. I'm afraid that I'm not going to figure out the "correct" version. This needs to be discussed on the article talk page, seeking consensus amongst the other editors. See Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for information on how to deal with situations in which editors disagree. Cheers, Dlohcierekim Deleted? 01:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I'm the formerly-anonymous user 200.117.168.68, having finally adopted a nickname to clear up the confusion. I should have brought this argument to you instead of allowing the edit war to escalate.

My main beef with your edit in the White People article comes from the fact that you decided to erase my entire contribution as opposed to building up on it, which was a rude thing to do, and from your decision to include the controversial UBA study, which contradicts many previous studies on the matter, such as [8] or [9]. Additionally, I don't believe genetic studies belong in the "White People" article, since this article deals with *social definitions* of "white people", not actual genetics.

The UBA study is controversial, because it's based on a sample of 200 Argentineans and uses a form of genetic testing that only traces one lineage from either the mother or the father's side. The overwhelming majority of genetic studies on Argentinian population shows no major differences between the admixtures of white Argentinians as compared to, say, white Canadians or Americans.

I'm not trying to deny that there's an amerindian component to Argentine population. Of course there is. But this component may range from 5% to 56% of the population, depending on the study cited, and does not make Argentine demographics any less different from other "Areas of New Settlement". Either we also include genetic studies showing admixture in Canada, Australia, and the US, or we don't include any genetic study at all. The white people article is supposed to deal with cultural and census definitions, after all, and no country in the world uses genetic testing for its census definitions.

Regards,

--Dharma for one (talk) 01:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Dunadan I understand what you say but you should have proposed to add this study previously. I am not saying that you edit is worthless is just that people find it very controversial..I personally think that goes perfectly on the demographics section (though it is already on Argentina's main page) but not on the other articles such as southern cone or white people I still have reverted you editions until we get to a final decision with the other users

Best regards,

Fercho85 05:12, 09 Feb 2008

Edit War

Mate, I tried to pacifically discuss this with you guys, but there is a conspiracy here of some nationals to avoid talking about some topics that doesn't please you. What you are doing here is the same paint Iraq as Scandinavia, a place where no war exist, equal income distribution and so on. I shows my arguments, I presented several references but you didn't care. All you did was to reject every piece of evidence that I presented.--Mhsb (talk) 01:16, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User's comments unrelated to the article

I removed the comments of the User:Opinoso because it doesn't contributed to to the topic. Notice that one of editors did the same as you can cleary see from the discussion page history:

04:01, 28 February 2008 Supaman89 (Talk | contribs) m (160,577 bytes) (→The attention of administrators is required: Removing joke between Supaman and Wanderer since it wasn't part of the discussion, so we can continue with the subject in a serious way.) (undo)

Please, don't start an edit war! Don't restore the page with this user's comments. Thanks.

--Mhsb (talk) 00:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Personal attacks

I don't agree with your point of view. What the User:Opinoso is doing is to link attacks from other articles for the purpose of attacking me.

Regarding the edit of my talk page, there is no official policy regarding when or whether personal attacks should be removed. Policy does not prohibit users from removing comments from their own talk pages, although archiving is preferred. The removal of a warning is taken as evidence that the warning has been read by the user. Deleted warnings can still be found in the page history.

--Mhsb (talk) 00:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the User:Opinoso was doing personal attacks againt me.

As per his statement:

Mhsb is disturbing many articles. In Brazil he is erasing information, including non-sense stuff in the article and creating an edit-war.

Please, somebody stop him. Opinoso (talk) 19:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

He is accusing me of disrupting contents, including non-sense stuff, in his opnion and creating an edit-war. Personal attacks violate talk page guidelines.--Mhsb (talk) 00:57, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, because the discussion was directly related to the article in question. User:Opinoso hasn't expressed anything but my actions on other articles, moving the discussion from one article to another article and thus disrupting Talk:Mexico page.--Mhsb (talk) 01:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which part of the discussion did I insult you??? I could equally say that you guys attacked me:

• Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream.

You are using affiliation to over-guard article and this violates Wikipedia policies: Wikipedia:Don't be a fanatic, Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. --Mhsb (talk) 01:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe you are the one who follow the contributions of other users... regarding the topic, it doesn't matter, I've just expressed my point of view... --Mhsb (talk) 01:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mexico City Page

In any case, please read WP:NOT. Images should be used when they illustrate a point in the section, not as decoration. Wikipedia is not supposed to be neither an album nor a repository of media files. A link—which already exists—to commons is the way to go.

I disagree, otherwise, why I would use galeries?

BTW, I wouldn't edit the Talk:Mexico page to discuss an article about the Mexico City. --Mhsb (talk) 02:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Personal attacks by Dúnadan

Please, follow the Wikipedia guidelines which refers to personal attacks. You are accusing me of Cyberstalking, which is a serious offense. Remember: Wikipedia is public, you do not own any article, section or even your talk page (see:Wikipedia:Ownership of articles). Angry mastodons isn't constructive in an online encyclopedia.

--Mhsb (talk) 02:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what you have against me, is this just because I proposed a section about crime in the Mexico article? I don't want to engage in an edit war with you. Please, state your concerns about my actions that I will address them seriouslly but stop attacking me. Cheers.

--Mhsb (talk) 03:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Making threats is against Wikipedia policies. You are the one who is not following the guidelines. --Mhsb (talk) 03:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I propose to start over. I should continue our discussion here, protest against your recent edits on the article Crime and Violence in Latin America, but let's start simple. I would kindly ask you to consider my apologies if I did anything that hurt your feelings. I will review all my writing under the discussion page of Mexico to see if I insulted you in any moment, I am pretty sure that I never did that. I would suggest to star over and go back to the discussion page in the Mexico article to give a new start. I think that my greatest mistake was not being diplomatic. I sincerelly hope to hear from you. about my proposal. Cheers.

--Mhsb (talk) 07:48, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Review

OK Dúnadan. Thanks for accepting my apologies and for proposing the modification of the articles we've been battling so far. I carefully read your proposals and I decided to proceed with the following actions:

• Regarding Mexico, I will wait for your proposal in the near future, I will be more than happy to contribute.
• Regarding Brazil, I was just following the guidelines of the project to include in the introduction some things the country is known for. I'll take care in creating possible stereotypes, althouth I wouldn't use the word "stereotype" since it has negative meaning. I know people from several backgrounds and some of them didn't know the English name for Brazil, but they knew that Brazil, as they name it in their language is known for its soccer players and its carnival... But I got your point anyway.
• Regarding Mexico City, forget my comments, I recognise that I was being childish.
• Regarding Crime and Violence in Latin America, I am glad to hear you think the article is valid. I will do some research on the topic and change its contents in a near future, please feel free to change the article as well if you wish.

Cheers, --Mhsb (talk) 02:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When you get a chance

Would you take a look at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Random weirdness, potentially disruptive editor and comment if possible? Thanks! -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 05:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Congratulations

Hi

I would like to thank you for the work you made in proposing a section that have been requested by other users some time ago in the Mexico article.

		The Original Barnstar
		Keep up the good job Mhsb (talk) 11:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Please Maurice

I assume your good faith. But I also believe you're reasonable enough to quit pushing your POV in keeping using "Spanish State" (both words together). I'm not going to start losing my time bringing references for days and days and days. You just have to read the Spanish State article to assume that this denomination of the country has francoist (in the past) and federalist and nationalist (nowadays) political connotations.

So, I admit that I start doubting your good faith when you keep using that denomination, even when knowing perfectly its contraversy.

Want to call it "seat of government of the State"? fine... "seat of government of the Country"? fine... "seat of government of the Nation"? fine... But I refuse to accept "seat of government of the Spanish State" It is not fully NPOV (and you know it very well)

So, I kindly ask you to quit using "Spanish State" as a denomination to Spain (outside the 1939-78 period). You may choose among 3 other.

Let's see your good faith...

Politics apart, I'm glad you started translating the article. But, as you read in Mountolive's talkpage, I consider that it would be better to start shortening the article with useless data before starting the translation. In the Sandbox we may do it without disturbing the article's general audience. Once we get the length desired, we could start translating. Cheers --MauritiusXXVII ^(Aut Doce, Aut Disce, Aut Discede!) 00:31, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi D

How's it going?

I'm just dropping you a line so you can, if you so wish, have a look at my new blog. I know we've had our differences, and you won't agree with everything you read there, but I think some of it might interesy you.

All the best and keep up the (mostly :-)) excellent work here.

http://downhillsince92.blogspot.com/

BNS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.252.24.34 (talk) 19:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Latin America

When you did the update/change in the table in Latin America you delete a name ref that left other orphan (see 19). Would you be so kind to recuperate the lost ref (IMF) and also, put the World Bank reference in proper format, as the rest of that table is. Mariordo (talk) 16:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank for your interest. A BOT fixed it automatically after I left you the above message, check the history. Sorry for the inconvenience. Mariordo (talk) 15:46, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mexico City (former)

I just wanted to point you to WP:PROD. In particular, there isn't a set procedure for contesting PRODs, other than removing the tag. PROD tags should never be replaced, even if they are removed in bad faith or without any justification. The right thing to do is what your next step was, taking it to AfD. Cheers, JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 09:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Mexican cities/metro areas

These templates are to talk about cities, not metropolis areas. — NuclearVacuum 16:24, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Though areas like this are metropolis areas, this is mainly talking about the city itself, not the area around it. Does this make sense for you? — NuclearVacuum 16:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Template:United Kingdom cities

Hello there. It would mean a lot to me if you could help make an argument on the talk of the city template of the United Kingdom. I know that you are interested in the way these templates work and are interested in keeping them (to some extent) standard. Please make an argument on Template talk:United Kingdom cities#Consensus if you are intended on keeping some standards here. Please make a statement here and thank you very much. — NuclearVacuum 18:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no need to threaten me here. I simply asked, you don't need to be spitting it at my face. Secondly, I have not violated the 3RR rule and you have no need to be threatening me with this. — NuclearVacuum 18:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted it back to your last edition. Please no need to threaten me or insult me. — NuclearVacuum 18:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, that was a mistype on my part. I had no intention writing that. Forgive me please. — NuclearVacuum 18:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mexico City pollution

Hello. Someone else had writen that on high-smog days, the city takes measures, such as double hoy no circulo, and they cited it. This is true, I live in Mexico City, I know. Someone else deleted that statement, along with a statement that cigarettes contribute to pollution. I may have been in error in restoring the entire section (which I considered wrongly deleted), and not just the thing about hoy no circulo. The cigarettes thing should go (unless cited), but the rest was good stuff. Keep up the good editing. - Eric (talk) 01:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I need some help

Hey Dunadan, I'm having some problems in the Geography of Mexico article (same old stuff) so there are some things I need to do and I thought you might be able to help me:

First - I need to find an administrator (hopely not biased) to stop the edit war, it's the same old stuff with people trying to put Mexico like it's not part of North American, etc. I'm tired of it.

Second - The person who I'm fighting with is an anonymous IP, so I need to ask someone to semi-protect the page, so at least people will have to show its face to edit the article.

So that's basically it, for some reason I always forget where to go with these things, could you put me the links so I can go and ask someone to check and protect the article, gracias. Supaman89 (talk) 02:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Latin America

		The Socratic Barnstar
		I, DerRichter, award this barnstar to Dúnadan for the excellent discussion here. Thanks, DerRichter (talk) 05:36, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously, good job in confronting editors who are just all over the place. --DerRichter (talk) 05:36, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks

Sincerely, thanks for your comment on Chile's talk-page. Cheers. --MauritiusXXVII ^(Aut Doce, Aut Disce, Aut Discede!) 22:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Demographics of Argentina

Greetings, I was reading the talk page at Demographics of Argentina, and came across your conversation with User:Fercho85 and realised I was the party in question =] I have Added information (and toned it down since) about Argentines having Amerindian ancestors. This is, to some, a bone of contention. I personally cannot see why one would have such a dislike for facts (especially pertaining to Amerindian peoples). I agree with you that his comments and acts of exclusion are downgrading to Amerindians in general.

Someone used the excuse that it didn't belong in that section of the article, while every European group was mentioned as ancestors to many Argentines...? I am disgusted that facts like this continue to be hidden by people with a disdain for groups other than Europeans. Why is the "Europeaness" of Argentina worded over and over, yet a simple addition (a fact, an educated study) cannot be tolerated. This has touched EVERY article dealing with Argentines/Argentine Americans...If you would give advice on this matter I'd be much obliged. Thank You for your time. Cali567 (talk) 07:00, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not to point fingers, but I'm suspicious of User talk:Lehoiberri and User:Fercho85 and fear they may be controlled by one user. I loosely remember I may have commented to one and recieved similar information from the other. How do you go about an investigation. They seem to write in the same articles. Also, thank you for your fairness regarding these articles. Cali567 (talk) 19:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RFC on the conduct of a user you have been involved with

Since you seem to be interested on catalan history, and since you edited Senyera next to the user I opened the RFC on, and since you later commented on his edits to Chile, I thought that you would be interested on Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Sclua. Feel free to comment there

Recient edits

Dunadan I have no intent to argue, as a matter of fact I have made my recently edit to prevent the usual issues and edit warring. In reference to your last edit, there is no need to state the entire genetic study lets keep it simple, besise it is well explained in Demographics of Argentina. I hope we can finally get to a consensus. Regards, --Fercho85 (talk) 20:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Recient edits

If you found annoying my "re-improvement" it was not my intention. In reference to my last edit I tried to replace certain words as "white 89-97% with enciclopedic facts. I also added the genetical study to complement the ethnicity section in a very proper way, and of course to prevent future edit warring or vandalism. I agree with you not to use weasel words like "so as a general rule.." I recognise that it was a mistake from my part. I don't agree mainly in the part where your edit says "...and 10% were shown to have Amerindian ancestors on both lineages" We should cite this study as simple and clear as it is posible.

Here is an example: "Nonetheless, a study conducted by the University of Buenos Aires, showed that over 56% of the population has some degree of Amerindian admixture on either paternal or maternal lineages"(ref)

Looking forward your reply. Regards, --Fercho85 (talk) 06:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Dunadan,

Having agreed with you I have just edited the section as per our consensus. Regards, --Fercho85 (talk) 04:49, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Revert on Buenos Aires

Why don't you add the reference yourself? I find it acceptable to refer to another article where the reference is actually cited. (I don't do it myself because I am bad with references.)

Don't play with me...

Read the guideline...

"Own comments It is best to avoid changing your own comments. Other users may have already quoted you with a diff (see above) or have otherwise responded to your statement. Therefore, use "Show preview" and think about how your amended statement may look to others before you save it.

Altering a comment after it has been replied to robs the reply of its original context. It can also be confusing. Before you change, consider taking one of the following steps:

• Contact the person(s) who replied (through their talk page) and ask if it is okay to delete or change your text.
• use strike-through or a place-holder to show the comment has been altered.
  • Strike-through is typed like this and ends up like this.
  • A placeholder is a phrase such as "[Thoughtless and stupid comment removed by the author.]". This will ensure that your fellow editors' irritated responses still make sense. In turn, they may then wish to replace their reply with something like, "[Irritated response to deleted comment removed. Apology accepted.]" M.

The guideline Xtv brought doesn't say co-official languages are to be erased from the infobox. It doesn't say it nowhere. Just read it to convince yourself.

Anyway, I said I'm not losing my time with people like you. The tag is on, so it is the matter of an admin to take the desition.

On the other hand, the guideline about discussion pages clearly states: "use strike-through or a place-holder to show the comment has been altered" (read here above what a place-holder is... DON'T YOU READ?). A place holder has been added in every place I wrote, so I'm perfectly able to erase as many comments by myself as I wish. My username is also removed as I don't wish any longer to be related to that debate or yourselfs. If you keep readding them, I swear to Jesus Christ that I will report you! M.

(Re) Is there any way?

• To "resolve a situation in which Maurice27 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) has acted somewhat disruptively [...] after other users had answered and provided the resources he demanded"
  • Adding my block log is of any special need?
  • Accusing me of acting disruptively is conciliating?
  • Any user has brought the "resources" I demanded. It doesn't say nowhere we must remove a co-official language, no matter how many times you claim it in the incident noticeboard or in any admin talk-page.

• "Given our unpleasant experiences with this user in other serious debates, I am asking for the early intervention of an administrator before the conflict escalates"
  • What are you looking for? To get me banned?

• "His language and behavior can be reviewed at the following links: [10], [11], and [12]. He refuses to debate [...]"
  • What a lovely, neutral, conciliating background note. You add it in order to make me appear as the Good Guy, I presume?...

I asked with the tag for third opinions from other people. I didn't add it to restart this futile cul de sac that debating with you about catalan related topics has become.

You are a wonderful editor when you want, but it is impossible to debate with somebody who doesn't want.

So, is there any way? I don't know... ¿Están las Illes Balears compuestas por Majorca, Menorca, Eivissa, Formentera, Cabrera y Dragonera? M.

statute of autonomy

Since you seem to be interested in the topic...would you possibly be keen in working out a ==Spain== section here?. Based on your contributions in Autonomous Community I know for a fact you could do a good job there...and it is certainly needed. Mountolive _{and the complications} 23:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you

		The Half Barnstar
		The Half Barnstar is awarded to you for excellence in cooperation. You have contributed to move forward the Nationalities and regions of Spain article, by productive editing together with User:Mountolive, despite not always sharing the same viewpoints. Regards, Asterion^talk 21:33, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Surveys at Talk:Valencian Community

Hi! I'm addressing you because you had participated in some way at Valencian Community article. I've started several surveys regarding to naming conventions about the Catalan language, the Spanish language, and about the name of the country of Valencia. I think there's no a real consensus about that and (also because of it) it may help to stop endless polemic disputes. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 17:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Demographics of Argentina

Hello there:

I recently came across the genetics analysis regarding the demographics of Argentina, and I can see that you had an extensive and rather constructive discussion on whether the study should be mentioned in the article. Now, after reading some comments in your talk page I see that user User:Fercho85,being the one who has shown the strongest disapproval of the study, had previously agreed to include it.
Prior to me editis, the demographics section of Argentina due to some anonymous editing, had gone back to the old way, with no mention whatsoever of the study.
And as of today, User:Fercho85 continues to oppose the addition of the study, despite previous consensus agreements. So now, I find myself wondering whether; is there something that can be done to prevent this discussion from going in circles? Should we request some sort of mediation to settle this down? Perhaps ask more people to join in the discussion? I assume that you probably had enough of this issue, but since I saw you involved for a while I thought you might still have some interest on the issue.

Salu2, Likeminas (talk) 19:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried to keep in all of the sourced information in the Articles related to Argentines. I have no idea why I'm getting in trouble by administrators for simply reverting Fercho85's Vandalism in these articles. He seems to be trying to get me blocked. What can we do about this? I have no idea where all the discussion is about this, but we must come to some conclusion that way we can leave it in using consensus. Can you help? Cali567 (talk) 07:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Argentina

Hi

Thought that would happen as soon as you came online.

I know its been going on for a while which is why I didn't revert those edits as well as the ones I did revert.

I am going to get involved with prose writing of the article, I would like to see it get back the "Good Article" status it previously held.

thanks --Chaosdruid (talk) 23:43, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the reply - It saddens me that it has gone on for so long, took me nearly 2 hours to read it all and try and understand the different points of view. For the most part it just seems people are mixing up genetics information with ethnicity information and if they cannot separate it it would probably be best left out lol.

Anyway, I'm compiling a list of things that need looking at, such as double use of "eighth largest" in the opening paragraph and the difference in legnths of history section (ie pre 1500 has one paragraph and doesnt even mention anything really about the history of the country) and so on. I'll post it in the chat page when I've finished, maybe it will divert attention away from the debate and hopefully we can get the article back into proper shape and re-promoted

you seem like the levelheaded one out of all the idiocy that has been going on there lol

cheers --Chaosdruid (talk) 00:24, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Descended from boats.

Sir or M'am:

You've been deleting grammatical corrections and my removal of factually incorrect phrases such as Among Argentines of Amerindian descent... (when the the quote refers to those of all ethnicities).

I've had the courtesy to leave the highly questionable item you've been pushing for months, when you've only used secondary (educ.ar) or tertiary (Clarín) sources to reference it by. This, of course, is inappropriate when inserting material such as ethnic studies, with which contributors to any country page should exercise care with. Again, I haven't deleted what you've been reinsrting without due consensus and what I (and most others, including, by the way, the U.S. readers you are attempting to influence) know to be patent nonsense.

I couldn't help but notice that, after a four-month long hiatus from what used to be a hectic Wikipedia editing schedule, you've returned to do pratically nothing but push your thinly referenced (one source) point of view. As you have abandoned the Catalan and Valencian community-related articles where you had been contributing extensively and (as far as I can tell) expertly, the subject of white Argentines must, then, chafe with you tremendously. Say what you will; but why else would you inisist on a minority opinion with one (secondary) source?!

Need I remind you, other Wiki articles are targeted by editors with fringe opinions backed by paltry references and they are not allowed to leave the material undeleted, why should you? Trust me, I notice additions I suspect to be true all the time; but absent good, primary documentation, I can do nothing to defend them. Again, I won't delete your favorite sentence; but don't insist on deleting my corrections and fixed links.

It's your right, naturally, to deny the widely-known fact that most Argentine descended from Europeans (including countless Catalans and Valencians, by the way). You can't reinvent the wheel, Dúnadan. It must bother you and I regret that. I live in the U.S. and can tell you (as you no doubt know) that you're not alone: it seems to bother many Latin Americans. I recently asked a colleague of mine from Ecuador as to why, and she suggested simply this: Jealousy, dear.

If you wish to deny it, then show it: don't push opinions without primary references, particularly when you have no consensus to do so.

Write back if you'd like.

Sherlock4000 (talk) 02:30, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Our favourite topics

Hi Dúnadan, if you feel like doing it, I'd recommend getting in touch with user:FayssalF. He's one of those über-mega-admins and has been partially involved before in that article, so he should be able to bring some peace to all of the 'Catalan Countries'. Besides, Taraborn is asking for it, so...let it be.

The reason why I dont do it myself is...well, you know...something in between disgust and weariness. I'm sure you know what I mean. MOUNTOLIVE _{fedeli alla linea} 02:37, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I posted a notice at the Administrator's noticeboard. I won't pursue it any further, even if no action is taken. You also know my disgust and weariness with these topics and with the uncooperative attitudes of some users whose only excuse for opposing any consensus is that "it's a bunch of POV stuff written by nationalistic separatists".-the Dúnadan 03:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Genetics (Again)

Greetings, I hate to bring up Argentina's ethnic composition (a never ending drama), but do you know of any conclusions made for the inclusion/exclusion of the Amerindian admixture from the Clarin study? I've re-added it, but it's been removed by two different users (one of course Fercho who backpedaled)- They wrote that they were "Editing section per consensus decision". I can't find a consenus... You've made very good arguments, but those against its inclusion have yet to do so - Yet they seem to be the "end all". Do you know where I might find the "consensus" if there is one? How would I go about putting it back in? C.Kent87 (talk) 07:43, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish nationality law

Por si te sirve, te comento que tenés una versión en inglés de la Constitución Española aquí. ¿Ya es una versión estable? Te lo pregunto porque seguramente intentaré traducir algunas partes del artículo para actualizar las interwikis a ca y a es. Saludos cordiales. Ferbr1 (talk) 10:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Neutralizar

Como te veo bastante activ@ aquí, quizás te interese neutralizar este artículo. En eswiki tenemos nuestros blaveros residentes que hacen todo lo posible para sesgar lo que pueden y más cualquier cosa relacionada con la llengua valenciana, pero dentro de todo los mantenemos a raya. Aquí, en enwiki (por lo menos en este artículo) no veo que la contención sea tan efectiva. En fin, si te sirve de algo y querés hacerlo, creo que la versión de eswiki es bastante digna y podrías sacar ideas. Saludos cordiales. Ferbr1 (talk) 10:38, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article Castle

Hello Dúnadan,

I apologize for my persistance in contacting you, but I don't know of another editor with an extensive knowledge of Mexican-related matters. However, if in the end you can only point me to another qualified individual, I'd be just as greatful.

In the article Castle, they have removed reference to Chapultepec Castle in the small segment 'Later use and revival castles'. The first comment after its deletion was left on my page, here. Also, you can see the other "reasoning" for its removal at Talk:Castle/Section. One even goes as far as comparing Chapultepec Castle with this "castle" [13]...

First, it was only that there wasn't an explicit source - User:Nev1 wants it to state in exact terms its existence as a "revival castle". I've tried to find an English one with no luck, maybe you can find one in Spanish? Now it isn't wanted as a part of the article at all.

Also, some have implied that the act of using photos of the castle that lead to one concluding it is a "revival castle" is Original Research. They use nothing but technicalities (right ot wrong) to back themselves up. It is just as much a revival castle as those listed from England. Maximilian I of Mexico even built Miramare Castle - which is also one. The time period, etc. all point to the reality of it being a revival castle, how could it not be?

If you feel there's no reason for my pressing on, I suppose I will concur. I had hoped to bring to the reader's attention the fact that these structures do not only exist in Europe - which is what seems to be the wish of those against its inclusion. C.Kent87 (talk) 04:33, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Would you happen to know the term for "revival castle" or anything to that extent in Spanish? So that I might find a Spanish source. I know 'Gothic revival' is 'Neogotico'... Thanks for your time. C.Kent87 (talk) 22:39, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Senyera Vs. Flag of Catalonia

Hi there... Long time no see. I was taking a look at some of the edits I made some years ago and I fell into this conversation we had (together with User:Enric Naval) 3 years ago. The main problems pointed out are nowadays solved (I believe) and I would like to continue with that idea of splitting both articles. Would you like to give me a hand? Cheers. --Maurice27 _{About Me, Talk, Vandalize}. 18:41, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mexico

Dear Dúnadan, I am working on improving Mexico. Your input and participation would be appreciated.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 12:35, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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country

hello, I believe that the introduction of the article should put that Catalonia is a country, as well as the article puts Scotland, so also in the Catalan wikipedia is made ​​as a country. I think the condition of identity that has Catalonia. deserves to be called country, as in the case of Scotland, although they make clear that this in spain. greetings--Nord oliver (talk) 00:08, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Nationalities and regions of Spain

Hello, I would like you to respect the editions that are not spam or vandalism, cos I edited that page and now I see that a robot of yours (or something) has automatically reverted my edition. I don't sign with a english user cos I am catalan user and don't have an account in the english wikipedia, but I'm a serious person. And about the edition itself, I would tell you that the sentence "In practical terms, the majority of the population, including nationalists, are largely satisfied with the current status quo even if there are still aspirations for further recognition of their distinctiveness or for the expansion of their self-government" is totally untrue, and if you know something about catalans and basques (and maybe galicians) you will now that is untrue, cos the main feeling in Catalonia is that we are not very confortable (politically) being part of Spain. That being said, it doesn't means that we all want the independence, but what "the majority of the population" want for sure is a new political relation with the spanish government and the rest of regions, I have heard that even within the spanish origine population in Catalonia, so: how can you say that we are satisfied with the current status quo?? Don't you pretend that those 2 sources know better than us what do we want, do you?? I hope you respect the editions, or at least you edit the original sentence in a way that explains a little better the real situation (maybe my english is not good enough), cos otherwise everybody will think that we are happy with the way things are now, and we have so many trouble making us understand in front of the rest of the world. Thank you for your comprension.188.79.225.67 (talk) 23:56, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I will reply here, since you might be using a dynamic IP address. Hopefully you will come back to his page to see my answer.

Undoing an edition does not imply that the edition is vandalism. In this particular case it implies that you deleted a sentenced backed up by two verifiable sources without providing a reference that proves your claim. In any case, I am very much aware of the Catalan situation. (Incidentally, I am an administrator at the Catalan Wikipedia).

I encourage you to read the entire section. The point being made, and backed up by sources, is that upon the establishment of the "State of the autonomies", the majority of the population, the nationalities included, are largely satisfied with the status quo (i.e. that which allowed for the asymmetrical devolution of power to the nationalities whereby the exercise their autonomy), even if a "sizable [big] minority [do not amount to an absolute majority] still advocate for self-determination [i.e. independence]". This statement is on the previous-to-last paragraph. I will move this phrase to the last paragraph, and reword the sentences, but I will still state that which the sources say.

Salut! -- dúnadan : let's talk 00:33, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You still keep "the majority of the population, including nationalists, are satisfied with the current status quo" in the article, wich is untrue, and if you know about catalans and basques, you know I am right. I know that there is 2 sources that justify this sentence, but try to understand: with this sentence you're talking about the feelings of an entire country, therefore, you cannot justify a sentence like that because there is 2 sources that say that. In other words: the matter we are discussing can't be a "scientifically proved" fact (in that case one source would be enough). How can I prove my point of view?? Well, I think it's quite easy for you to understand, if you have a look to the main spanish and catalan newspapers, then you'll see the main opinion we (population, politicians, bussinessmen...) have about being part of Spain. I am not trying to say that all of us want the independence, but, it's a real fact that we are not confortable with the current status quo, and it's not only an economical issue (as we would deduce from the last sentence in the article), but is about money, language, identity, recognition... So I ask you to change that sentence in orther to have another one that explains the reality, and not only based in what 2 sources say.

By the way, where are you from? Do you know about the feelings in Spain?? Are you catalan, or have catalan familiy (in Catalonia)? Don't get offended, I ask that, because, how can you prove that you can actually know what happens in our country? You know it, or you just read it somewhere?? I didn't read about, I am catalan and I only know about what do we feel or think, therefore I don't write about the feelings of other nations. Salut. 188.79.225.67 (talk) 10:41, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understand how you feel, but this is not the way things work in Wikipedia. I recommend that you read WP:VERIFY. I will just quote a sentence from it: "[Wikipedia's] content is determined by previously published information rather than by the personal beliefs or experiences of its editors." It has nothing to do with being "scientifically" proven, but in being simply referenced through verifiable sources. Peripheral nationalism is a complex issue in Spain - believe me, I know - but an encyclopedia should not be written based on our feelings or the feelings we share with other people. Moreover the article is about the dichotomy of "nationalities and regions" in Spain, not about Catalan identity. A separate article could be created - properly referenced and expressing all points of view, including those we don't agree with. -- dúnadan : let's talk 23:18, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you in some things, but maybe I don't know how to make myself clear in english. Ok, I'll put an example: say I find 2 sources that say "the majority of the population of Belgium are satisfied with the current status quo, and french-speaking belgians are happy to share their country with dutch-speaking belgians". Now, do you know what's going on in Belgium?? Would you need a source that says that this is not true, in order to change that incorrent sentence?? I can't give you a source that says that historic nationalities's population in Spain is not happy with the status quo (I am geologist, therefore I'm not used with this kind of sources about politics, I only talk about what I see is going on in my country, not about my opinion or feelings).

The sentence we talk about would be correct if you talk about the whole Spain (excluiding the nationalists's part: because, wich nationalists happy with the status quo are we talking about? the spanish nationalists?), but is incorrect if you talk about the historic nationalities, cos in Catalonia and in Basque Country, that sentence is totally untrue. I am sad to see that the english wikipedia is not aan impartial wikipedia. I have seen that before in the spanish Wikipedia (they apply the rules in a politically charged way), but I thought the english wikipedia was like a "world wikipedia" unaffected by opinions or political things... and here you don't want to accept a real fact.

I ask you to modify that sentence in orther to have a real description of the situation: 2 sources (they're not even spanish sources) can't express the feelings of an entire country. Another thing: I thought we everybody were free to edit, but you show me that your word has more value than mine, and you don't even tell what makes that possible (unless you assure me that you are catalan, basque, or galician).

Btw, you never answered the question about your relation with Catalonia or catalans.84.88.80.90 (talk) 09:22, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Would you need a source that says that this is not true". Yes you would. Per WP:VERIFY, and please do read the entire policy, so that you can also know what is considered a valid reliable source (WP:SOURCE) and what is not (WP:SPS). This is simply the way an encyclopedia works. Things that are "facts" are usually easily verifiable through reputable sources; it is not that hard.

Now, I think there is some confusion with what constitues the infamous status quo. And again, I urge you to read the entire article and the sources, not just the statement that says "the majority of people are satisfied with the status quo". What is the "status quo" we are talking about? Well, it is the "autonomy framework", whereby competences and power were and are being devolved to the nationalities and regions in an asymmetrical fashion, in which the "historical nationalities" (not all self-described nationalities) have more powers. This "progressive arrangement of devolution" is the framework the majority of the population is satisfied with. That is why, despite being satisfied with this framework, nationalists still have aspirations for the expansion of self-government (there is no contradiction between the "satisfaction" and the remaining "aspirations"). In other words, the satisfaction does not come from the fact that nothing needs to be changed, but that the current framework - the "State of autonomies", if you will- is seen, by the majority - not everybody - as the appropriate framework to do so. Of course, there is still a "sizable" [big] minority that still advocates for something else, be it a "federal State", be it "fiscal autonomy", be it the "right to decide", or be it the outright independence of the nationalities, depending on how many options are available to choose from.

What does the source say? It reads: "The new autonomy framework has bestowed the Spanish state with a new-found sense of legitimacy [...] In other words, most citizens, including nationalists, feel largely satisŽfied with the current arrangements, even though aspirations for the expansion of Catalan self-government remain". I already removed "largely" from the article. I will be happy to change the word "status quo" with "current arrangements", if that conveys the message better.

As for your last question, I rarely speak of my nationality in Wikipedia (but come on, the fact that I am an administrator in the Catalan Wikipedia should give any smart guy a hint!). Why? Because all debates in Wikipedia must be supported by logical arguments, and it is so easy to fall into logical fallacies called argumentum ad hominem. In any debate or reasoned argument, "being" French does not make the person "right" in his arguments regarding France, anymore than being Italian makes that person "wrong" in his arguments regarding France. Moreover, it is not a matter of being "right", it is a matter of presenting a reasoned argument, backed up by reliable sources, while at the same time giving due weight to all points of view, including the minorities.

-- dúnadan : let's talk 15:37, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I changed a little thing in the article. I did tried to put a reference, but it's too complicate!!84.88.80.90 (talk) 14:46, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You simply reverted the original assertion, albeit with different words. I added three sources. The hardest to find was that for Galicia. Of course, polls differ a lot, especially on the type of question being asked. If only two options are given (independence vs. not independence) of course, the numbers for both are higher (simple math) than if five options are given (centralization, no change, more autonomy, federal State, independence). For example, with 5 options given, more Catalans will vote for a federal state than for independence, but if only two options are given, most of those that would vote for a federal state would then choose independence. I think choosing one question over the other would be "cherry-picking" the answer, so I'd be careful when using polls. I prefer Academic works that have studied the situation over time, whose conclusions aren't as volatile as the results of a couple thousand people that were interviewed for a specific poll. IMHO. -- dúnadan : let's talk 15:26, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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