This is an archive of past discussions about Template:Infobox airline. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Hubs, then focus cities, I know that this is what some airlines use. However, the data for both is airports. Should the hubs be hub cities? Not sure about this at all.
What should appear in the boxes and it what order? If the focus on the airline or who currently runs it?
I put the most important corporate information to avoid having to also add a corporation infobox (having two infoboxes makes the page look cluttered).
Virtually all airlines (except for low-fare carriers) use some variation of the hub-and-spoke system. Not all airlines have focus cities, but many do. That field can say "none" or be left blank for the airlines that don't.
I added the link to Airline lounge, since I figured at some point or another, someone should write a brief article about that.
I put the box in the other five major US carriers. I'll hold off on expanding it further until a final design has been made.
I modified the template, since that appears to be the only way to change the order of display and to add elements. If there is a better way, please let me know. I moved the company information down to place the focus on the airline, and not the company and managers, and added a link to this infobox section for comments. Let me know what you think. Vegaswikian18:07, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the new design looks better. I changed the link in the box to point to this discussion page, rather than the content page. Dbinder18:12, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Hi, may I change some of the links such that they go direct to pages, instead of their redirects? Of coz, we can maintain the current appearance by using something like Frequent Flyer Program etc.--Huaiwei14:14, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Sure, that was one of the reasons for the {{Airline codes}} template, it eliminated redirects. Most of what we are working on at this point is trial and error and fixing what is broken is encouraged. What I have been doing, if I'm changing what someone else is behind, is explain why I'm making a change in a talk page and then doing it. Vegaswikian17:27, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
What problems did you find? Maybe we should be changing the words we are using to the redirect's article title? Vegaswikian17:31, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Do we need to add some indicator about the type or airline/service offered? This could include mainline/scheduled, regional/scheduled, charter, cargo, military airlift, tour (helicopter and fixed wing). Or is this best left to the body of the article? Vegaswikian19:49, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
User:TorontoStorm removed a couple fields from the infobox. While I reverted most of his changes, I do agree with the suggestion of removing the "Summary" heading. I'm replacing it with the name of the airline (see updated infobox specs). Dbinder14:50, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
How to handle charters in destinations
I have seen at least one new airline stub that listed 3 locations that an airline flys to on a regular basis. Several charter airlines fly scheduled charter service into Vegas. One is Omni Air International and that page does not list destinations with regular service but it does mention some in the article text. Don't know if this is the correct way to do this or not. Maybe the infobox needs some updates? Vegaswikian19:45, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Think these should be added as a seperate field or a seperate line under "desintations", since airline are usually assumed to be operating regular scheduled flights only, while chartered operations has its own category of regulations to be met?--Huaiwei05:43, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Would it be meet to include the line's corporate advertising tagline in the box? I note that, for American, for example, it doesn't seem to be anywhere in the article at all. Though airline slogans probably have less resonance today than they did in the regulated era, it seems to me that it would be informative to include them. --Baylink19:41, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
If a slogan is a key factor of how people see the airline or how the airline runs its operations I think it should be in the article under corporate culture. What I would like to see is a section of acqustions, partnerships, foreign services, and express or shuttle subsides that an airline has. --mitrebox20:33, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Add your suggestions to Structure as listed below. You don't have to be listed as a participant to make changes, but it would be nice to see a few more participants listed. Vegaswikian20:37, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, for my part, I'm a dilettante: it's more an advertising thing than an airlines thing. :-) My best friend works for SWA, though. --Baylink18:51, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Don't know. The question probably comes down to what should be in the infobox vs. someplace else in the article. Take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Airlines#Structure and see if there is a good place for it there or a good place to fit it in. Remember this project is new so there are probably a lot of things that need to be added in the structure that have not been identified yet. Vegaswikian20:35, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Slogans might be a good idea, but a lot of people still remember slogans no longer in use, especially United's "Fly the Friendly Skies" (not really sure why they got rid of that). Anyway, if there is such a section, it should also mention the carrier's most famous one in addition to any current one(s). Dbinder21:50, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Your comment about the past slogans kind of says they need to be in the article itself. That's about the only way you show the progression and list the memorable ones from the past. I'll add this to the structue somewhere but feel free to move it around. Vegaswikian
Destinations and cargo and codeshares
Btw, I just noticed an inconsistency which may arise in the "Destinatons" field. Do we include codeshared desinations served only by other airlines? And how do we deal with cargo-only desinations, esp. considering some major airlines have set up a seperate cargo airline to handle cargo traffic, such as Lufthansa Cargo and Singapore Airlines Cargo?--Huaiwei18:58, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
My position has always been to keep companies seperate since that avoids confusion. Using HP as an example, there was one article to start, now there are three (America West Airlines, America West Express, and America West Holdings Corporation). I beleive that this makes it easier to keep things straight. I learned this when I tried to fix the Golden Nugget article which was suppose to be mostly about the Vegas casino and was really about the company. The cargo issue to me is simple when there is a seperate company or division, create an article about that and then link to it as needed. If it is a small operation, then just add a section to the parent company article. Codeshares are more difficult so I'm creating a subsection here to discuss that. Your comments also bring up the issue of charter flights, especially to standard destinations. Vegaswikian19:32, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Ah...and also seasonal destinations? Hmm...is it neccesary to expand the destinations dta field to incorporate three figures: the first for regular scheduled flights only, the second for seasonal only, and the third for chartered only? And maybe one more for the total figure?--Huaiwei05:43, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Seasonal is usually handled by adding (seasonal) after the destination. Sometimes it includes the dates of service for the next season. I think that works and staying with that should be OK. Vegaswikian05:49, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Fleet Size
I've noticed that some carriers' infoboxes include regional non-operated planes in under total fleet size. Originally, I entered the information from the alliance websites. However, I realized that the most reliable source (for US carriers anyway) is FAA registration information, since this provides a consistent measurement across carriers. Dbinder20:22, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Yet another complication, is that some would add leased-in aircraft, leased-out aircraft, or even aircraft on order/options. There are also cases of aircraft being stored, etc, of which some airlines include them, while others dont. Shall we come up with a standardised treatment of these information, or will a more detailed fleet breakdown be better? I hope this dosent add too much clutter thou...:D --Huaiwei20:58, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I think a position is needed. The question is, can we get uniform data for all airlines? If the answer is no, then what do we use? Maybe we simply say the sources for the data need to be uniform. So for US and Canada we use the FAA data and for everyone else we use their press reports or other sources like a web site. Maybe it is a list of sources in the preferred order? While they may report different things, at least our source is uniform. Vegaswikian21:11, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
This looks like it really could be a problem, so I like the idea of using a standard data source... or a list in preferred order. I'm seeing this as a problem as I build the infobox for Aloha Airlines. The FAA site says they have 23, but the Aloha website only accounts for 21. FAA also doesn't break down subtypes, so if you search Aloha you'll just see 23 Boeing 737, while Aloha's web site breaks it down into -700, -200 (pax), and -200 (cargo). So right now the infobox says 23, and the breakdown in the article says 21. Help! Hawaiian71702:21, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Adding a new section to the airline infobox for international gateway cities. Good idea?
The airline infobox table has good info for hubs and focus cities, but what about gateways? Using NW as the example, I saw that the NW page had JFK, SFO, SEA, and HNL listed as focus cities. I added a few more, such as LAX and PDX... which Dbinder correctly removed (thank you) since they are not true focus cities. So I went ahead and removed the other remaining gateways, leaving only IND and MKE, which are the only true focus cities for NW. So back to my question. Should there be a home for places like SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, BOS, JFK? Or is that way too much information for a table? Reward09:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I think HNL is actually a focus city for NW. As for the others, Northwest is in a unique position (along with United) of having hubs outside of the country, so their flights from gateways go to one or both of their international hubs. For most airlines, international gateways are focus cities, so I'm not sure if another section is necessary. Dbinder13:01, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
If you define a focus city as a place which has flights to destinations normally served only by hubs, then HNL could be a focus city (since there are flights from LAX, SFO, SEA, and PDX). I agree with you about seeing the gateway as only a spoke from the hub in Japan or Europe. So maybe the international gateway designation doesn't really mean much, as long as people know there are hubs outside of the U.S. which service non-hub U.S. cities, such as SEA, PDX, SFO, and LAX. Reward01:28, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Not sure. To me gateways are frequently, if not always, hubs, look at CO at EWR. That is their major hub and their primary gateway, at least based on what I think a gateway is. I'd rather see an expansion of the airport categories to include Category:International Airport to deal with this. I believe I created it once only to have it removed with the comment that it would cover virtually every airport. Vegaswikian20:04, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, gateways may be hubs, but certainly not always. EWR is a good example of one that is, as is SFO for UA and JFK for DL. But SFO and JFK are only gateway cities for NW. When NW operated a NRT flight from LAS, it was just a gateway. SFO is definitely a hub for UA but just a gateway city for NW.
I think the category for international airport is a good idea. But since there are so many cities within the U.S. which have service to Canada (I guess that's why someone thought it would include almost all airports) maybe having some additonal criteria would be good. For instance, an airport which has service to countries other than Canada, Mexico, or the Carribean. Or a distance requirement? Something which would capture all the aiports with flights to the Asia-Pacific region, Europe, and South America. Reward01:28, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
That begs the question of what to do with Europe. Almost every airport there services international locations, even if only the country next door. Actually I think that the US is the smallest of the problems. Vegaswikian04:50, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Good point! The U.S. is unique in having the largest domestic route system in the world; nothing else even comes close in terms of daily flights or air passengers carried on a wholly domestic basis. If you want to beg even more questions, consider that between EU countries, flights are not international in the sense they once were. What do we call these? And there are places such as SIN, where every flight is international. Reward05:10, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Specification of Infobox
The fields should be used as follows:
{{Infobox frame}}
{{Airline infobox |
airline=airline common name (not corporation name)|
logo=logo_filename|
logo_size=logo_size (usually 250px)|
fleet_size=# of registered planes in fleet, for US and Canadian carriers, use the FAA data.
Do not include regional jets not owned by the airline (e.g. Under US Airways include Embraer 170s
owned by US Airways but not Embraer 145s owned by Chautauqua Airlines)|
destinations=# of destinations served by mainline fleet, not including express|
IATA=IATA code|
ICAO=ICAO code|
callsign=callsign|
company_name=parent or holding company if applicable, otherwise repeat full airline name|
founded=year founded, original name "(as XYZ)" if applicable|
headquarters=[[city name]], [[state/province name (optional)]], [[country name]]|
key_people=CEO and/or chairman, any other notables|
hubs=[[largest hub]]<br>[[other hubs...]]|
focus_cities=[[secondary hubs...]]<br>[[focus cities...]]|
frequent_flyer=program name|
lounge=lounge name; if no member lounge exists, provide name of business lounge|
alliance=[[alliance name]]|
website=web address without "http://"|
}}
{{End frame}}
Dbinder15:30, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Note: I created {{Infobox frame}} as a more generic version of the airline frame. This is also going to replace Airline Alliance frame. For future uses of the infobox, use the Infobox frame instead of Airline frame. Dbinder14:09, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I just changed the US Air infobox to remove the cities from the infobox. I thought the box was to just list the airports to keep things clean, now it says focus cities above. Should that be focus cities airports ? Vegaswikian20:25, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Hide parts of infobox that don't have information?
A question first. Is this template going to be used on smaller airlines as well as the majors?
If so should it be modified to hide parts of the box that don't include information (usually because the airline doesn't use it)? For example Air Tindi has no members lounge, alliance, parent company etc. so why must those boxes be left blank on its page?
This could be done the same way I've modified {{Infobox UNSecGen}}. If you look you can see the death section is included on Dag Hammarskjöld, but is hidden at Kofi Annan (because he's alive). Something along the same lines? If no information is entered after the = then the box doesn't apear on the page. - Trevor macinnis01:07, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to see some of them retained so that editors can notice that they are missing when they are finally created add the info. Something like the owning company could be an exception. It might be also nice to be able to blank out missing information rather then displaying {{{whatever}}} when we add a new field, like fleet size. Vegaswikian19:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
On Westjet, there are some blank fields but they dont disappear even though there is no information is entered after the = TorontoStorm 14:56, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
I can do it easily enough, I just wasn't sure if it was okay yet. But I'll do it now and let people revert it if it they don't like it. Trevor macinnis15:45, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I did one line. Now if the airline has a member lounge (American Airlines) it will show, but if it doesn't (ATA Airlines) it won't. To explain, the new line {{if defined call1|{{{lounge}}}|Airline infobox/Lounge|{{{lounge}}}}} means that if the variable "lounge" is "defined" (i.e. entered after the = on the airline page)then the subpage "Airline infobox/Lounge" is printed in this spot with the variable "lounge" inserted. Trevor macinnis16:02, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Trevor macinnis, can you also do that for the frequent flyer program, parent company, focus cities, and alliance. If you could that would be GREAT! TorontoStorm 16:06, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
Reverted changes
I reverted your changes. Please visit the WikiProject page and read our discussion before removing items from the infobox. Dbinder14:44, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Remove Link
Can we remove the link from the infobox to here because most people just view the articles not edit them, so that link is of no use to them TorontoStorm 15:23, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
We could, but the intent was to generate feedback on the template. This is modeled on the one in the airport infobox. If you are saying the the infobox is fine as is and that it can be rolled out to many more articles without questions then, yes it can be removed. Vegaswikian21:03, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I think at this point it probably can be removed. The template's already in a bunch of airlines and seems to be working well. Dbinder21:13, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Colour
In my opinion the colour is hideous. Surely a blue colour would be best, but frankly anything but the present. Mark8322:28, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Be bold. My only suggestion might be to use something similar to that is used in the airport box so that the two start having a similar look and feel. Vegaswikian23:22, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed those changes for now. It caused the infobox to ignore the logo size specification, resulting in some ridiculously large images on some pages (especially KLM and United). I'm not really sure how to fix the problem, so reverted until someone can take a look at it. Dbinder16:33, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
How to handle code shares in destinations
Most of the destination pages I have seen are for routes that the airline flies. That seems to be the reason the articles say not including the regional carriers that fly under their name. The airport articles also list the Airline and regional companies destinations in different places and include overlaps if both fly to a specific location. So maybe code shares should be listed in services see Wikipedia:WikiProject Airlines#Structure. Vegaswikian19:36, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Hmm...I believe codeshares are usually ignored when it comes to statistical information compelled by aviation organisations because doing so will result in plenty of overlapping data which can be highly misleading. All the more so when we now have huge airline alliances, which has the potential of effectively adding hundreds of destinations to each airline indirectly. Usually, the only cases of codeshares being listed is when airlines are promoting the extend of their services, so shall we add another line for "codeshared destinations"? Btw...there are codeshares for cargo airlines too. :D--Huaiwei05:43, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I missed your question not sure if it was answered. In any case, I think it is sufficent to list the fact that airline 1 has a code share agreement with airline 2. I don't know that it is necessary to provide more detail in an article unless there is something unique about a specific codeshare. I think that listing destinations is problematic since the airline does not actually fly that route, they offer a service that allows their passengers to reach that destination. Vegaswikian16:38, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Banner color
I changes the banner color to a more eye pleasing color, If that color doesn't go over well then may I suggest another blue shade such as #ABCDEF (Pale Cornflower) or #5F9EA0 (cadet blue) - Trevor macinnis19:26, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Should we standardize what positions we list as key people? CEO is obvious... any other positions we should make sure to include? Hawaiian71722:27, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Any thoughts on how to handle information like frequent flyer program, alliance affiliation, and member club for regional affiliates? Airlines like SkyWest are especially complicated, since they run separate operations for United Airlines and Delta Air Lines that are distinct. If you're a passenger on a flight operating in the Delta system, you get Delta benefits only, no United benefits. Airlines that only operate for a single carrier like Atlantic Southeast Airlines are a little simpler, but still, it is not "their" program. Hawaiian71721:13, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Personally, FF programs and clubs are really something that is covered by the airline that the regional carriers are under contract to. Is there any need to list these items under the reginoals? Vegaswikian08:18, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
help with errors
There is a display error at Ansett. Can someone please fix? Perhaps some instructions on how to use this template would be a good idea as it is quite complex.--A Y Arktos21:52, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi. Brion has stated that, contrary to WP:AUM, there are not significant server load concerns from 'meta templates' like qif. The 'hiddenStructure' method on the other hand definitely causes accessibility problems... displaying extraneous text in non CSS browsers (Lynx) and speaking it in some screen-reader programs. --CBD☎✉00:40, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, I see it's been reverted - somebody thinks you were proving a point. Anyway, I've no problem with qif, and I think it is a better approach than the CSS frig. However, I do question the need for optional fields in this template at all. Thanks/wangi10:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I would say it is not that bad to use qif until we have conditional support in MediaWiki. At least qif produces decent html and it no longer "violates" WP:AUM as that has been vaporized recently (WP:AUM has been used as a banner to extinct uses of qif in a arcane crusade for premature optimization). On the other hand, one might be tempted to use hiddenStructure until we have conditionals in MediaWiki. But this produces problematic html code. So the question is what ugliness should be used. What I can say is I would not go and try to avoid at all cost conditional fields. It is a safe bet that we will have support for that barely missing feature in future versions of MediaWiki. --Adrian Buehlmann10:20, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Key Cities
Hello, Over on the JetBlue Talk Page we've been struggling with how the concept of Hubs works with JetBlue, and we think that we should just use JetBlue's term of Focus cities, and not Hubs in the infobox. Would it be possible to modify the Template to have a key_cities attribute, that works just like the focus_cities attribute? Thank you. —Cliffb06:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that while the definition of a focus city is somewhat vague, it is still an official term used in the industry. Key city isn't. Can the JetBlue article just use focus cities? DB (talk) 06:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
A couple airlines have their own names for what is essentially a focus city (JetBlue uses "Key City", Ryanair calls all their focus cities "bases" - although base actually has a different meaning). Creating a special section for each of these cases would cause the infobox to become unwieldy. DB (talk) 06:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps the issue comes from that the Focus city text also lists them as "secondary hubs". Perhaps those need to be unbundled? I know this is a little picky, but if editors had the ability to be specific between Hubs, secondary hubs, and focus cities that would probably help clarify and resolve some of the disagreements.. —Cliffb06:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
That should work. When making the change, keep the focus city attribute and just add the secondary hubs one, though. Changing the name of the attribute would create broken references in every airline article. DB (talk) 16:27, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Well what about keeping it as is and adding focus_cities2 and secondary_hubs -- this way it doesn't make any unintended modifications to existing articles? —Cliffb17:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
That shouldn't be necessary. Moving secondary hubs to a separate field would only cause airlines' secondary hubs to be listed as focus cities for the time being. Since secondary hub and focus city are somewhat vague terms anyway, I don't think anyone will flip out over the change. DB (talk) 18:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Some editors have been changing the callsigns in the infobox to be in all caps. Is this the way we want it? I notice in the example that "Air Canada" is not. Personally, I'd prefer them to be written normally, with all-caps reserved for airlines that actually use an acronym as their callsign, such as "TWA". -- Hawaiian71715:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I think it's mostly just a style issue, since callsigns are primarily used in a spoken context, rather than a written one. -- Hawaiian71720:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry late into this one (thanks Hawaiian717) - as the main culprit for changing the callsigns to upper case (and I have done a lot of them!!!). The main reason is that the official source for ICAO codes and callsigns (which is ICAO Document 8585), and the FAA documents and eurocontrol always list the callsign as uppercase. airlinecodes.co.uk and some of the other websites quoted are just an amateur site and in my opinion we should follow ICAO 8585 which is the official document for callsigns. Please refer to https://www.faa.gov/atpubs/CNT/3-3.HTM or http://www.eurocontrol.int/icaoref/icao_8585_aircraft_operators_browse.jsp.MilborneOne20:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
To confirm what MilborneOne has mentioned the Russian State Air Traffic Management Corporation also lists all callsigns in CAPITALS. Uppercase is the standard which should probably be followed --Russavia11:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Need Russian specific sections
In the infobox we have sections for IATA and ICAO codes and also callsigns. This is fine for a lot of the airlines, however for Russian airlines it is totally insufficient.
Take for example Chukotavia which has neither IATA nor ICAO code, but has the internal code of АД (Russian letters AD).
Obviously this option need not be included in the standard infobox, as they won't be relevant to non-Russian airlines, but can someone please modify an infobox template for me to include these details in Russian airlines as they are relevant, and in some cases more relevant than international data.
It has been observed that User:Russavia has been actively replacing entries for the "parent company" field across multiple articles [1][2][3][4][5][6], on the basis of a singular definition of majority shareholding as the sole criterion for eligible entries under that category. This he has proceeded done so despite his failing to garner concensus. If he continous to demonstrate disruptive editing by continously mass-editing articles at this stage, I would strongly propose amending the "Parent company" field and changing it to "major shareholder(s)" instead.--Huaiwei15:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
He has a lot of articles to change! the parent field has been used on a lot of airline articles for the legal name if the airline has no parent. I dont think it was every intended to list major shareholders in a public company, I am sure that it was intended to list the owner of a private companies. I am not sure that major shareholders gives any value in most cases as the nature shareholding in public quoted companies can change from day-to-day!. Can we please have a field that has legal name to replace those deleted by User:Russavia. MilborneOne05:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
This is following on from the proposal I put at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Airlines#New_infobox_needed.3F. The parent company field should be as I have changed with many airline articles, where the actual parent company is placed. What is needed is a separate Major shareholders field, where all shareholders who own more than 10% can be placed (10% is the standard for this definition).
We also need other fields added as per my proposal which are:
Main base
Secondary base
AOC
Membership org
The legal name, i.e. Qantas Airways Limited, needs to be in the lead paragraph, as per WP:MOS.
Airlines are a business, and we need to make the articles and information in them a little more businesslike. At the moment we have the legal name in the parent company box, and this isn't correct, hence why I propose what I did on the project talk page (refer to my full info at link above) --Russavia 03:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I would be wondering just how a "businesslike" article is supposed to look like without veering too much towards blatant advertising. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and all articles (except supporting articles, such as lists, obviously) must be presented as encyclopedia articles with no exception. Perhaps you should be concentrating your attention on the primary issue over "parent company/shareholdings" now before moving on to other suggestions, considering the one mass-editing articles across wikipedia is no one but yourself. It has also been noted that you have taken to "updating infoboxes" across wikipedia and asking for people to use "new infoboxes" when you have not even gathered concensus to change the infobox itself. Kindly familiarise yourself with wikipedia's procedures before engaging in further disruptive editing exercises.--Huaiwei03:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Businesslike is perhaps not the right word. Professional and encyclopaedic are the right words, instead of the spotterlike that many articles do look like at the present time. And my placement of some infobox updates was because those articles were using OLD versions of the infobox as it stands NOW, not for any proposal that I had to change the infobox. Perhaps that should have been looked at before Huaiwei, instead of saying what you did. Also, if you would care to look at Template:Infobox_Airline at the example given at the bottom, you will notice that the parent company field is used for precisely the type of information which I have included in Singapore Airlines and other articles, so I don't need to get any consensus on that at all. So please, familiarise youself with what the infobox is actually used for before telling me to get consensus on such a change. --Russavia 05:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Encylopedias are inherently professional, so I fail to see where you are coming from. Also, kindly define spotterlike. If articles are not up to standard according to wikipedia standards, just state so matter-of-factly. As for inboxes, just which old infobox are you talking about? I noticed I wasent the only one who was confused[7] by your misleading terminologies and abuse of the newinfobox tag, so just who are you to tell me to "look for it"? If a field is being used "incorrectly" across wikipedia, that is an issue to discuss as I have stated above, and is not a new infobox issue, nor is it an excuse to mass rename articles. So please, familiarise youself with how wikipedia actually goes about obtaining concensus before telling me to get familiarised with the infobox.--Huaiwei05:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Like I said here Huaiwei, I find it somewhat amusing that according to you, I have to obtain consensus to change a single piece of information in an article which is fully within the guidelines of what the infobox is used for (and referenced mind you), yet you feel you do not need to get consensus to include codeshare destinations and flight numbers which go against guidelines of the project, and in the case of flight numbers, there is no consensus for, with the only one who supports having it being you; with any edits of it being wholesale reverted on sight by yourself; reverting back this information, in addition to the spelling/grammer mistakes in the article, and other pieces of information which were also updated, but are now out of date again in the article. So, I am totally open to gaining the consensus of changing the infobox in the SIA article, so long as you are also open to gainin consensus on the inclusion of codeshare destinations and flight numbers in the same articles. Is this something that you would be happy to do? --Russavia 06:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
As to the old infobox, please refer to this [diff], there are fields present in the article infobox as it stood which were not in the updated. Assume good faith with those, because that was simply letting people know their article infobox was out of date, although I found out later I should have done this on the talk page, but to expect me to change the infobox of thousands of airline infoboxes is a little out of the question, when I have been going thru thousands of articles as of late, easier to let editors know, they can change the infobox template and also update info in the infobox at the same time. Unfortunately, good faith was not assumed with that. --Russavia 11:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Any thoughts on adding a field for company type? Airlines could be identified as private (what few there are) or public and any stock symbol information mentioned using the nasdaq, nyse, tsx, etc. templates. Many airlines are publicly traded both under corporation devoted to the airline and the parent company.--Rtphokie (talk) 17:04, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Hubs/focus cities should include city names
There are many airports whose names do not include the cities they serve, and some people who added the city names have had their edits reverted. If someone is to print out the airline article, the infobox may only say Kennedy, Logan, La Guardia, or the numerous Mexican generals with no mention of which cities they are in. After all, shouldn't the names of the CITIES be in the list of focus CITIES? Even in airlines' own press release templates, they are likely to include their hub cities' names instead of hub airports' name. (I've seen Continental's.) Therefore I suggest a new standard for listing hubs, secondary hubs and focus cities in an airline infobox, using MMTJ as an example:
User:Jamcib made three edits on 9 April 2008, one of which caused blank lines to appear above the infobox on pages where some of the optional fields are not included. Those were reverted by User:Davidgothberg, after which Jamcib again made the same three edits on 10 April 2008:
This causes one blank line above the infobox for every optional parameter which is left blank or omitted (4 blank parameters = 4 blank lines above infobox in article). I reverted these changes and the infobox should now display correctly. -- Zyxw (talk) 09:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
There appears to be some alignment problems of the infobox on FedEx Express (The box has almost equal space on each side of the divider, creating a lot of wasted space). Other airlines' infobox such as Continental Airlines clearly have more space on the right side and uses the space a lot better. Is there a way to fix this...is something casuing this alignment problem that can be fixed? Spikydan1 (talk) 04:00, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
The width of the right column appears a bit wider to me, but not by much. Increasing the width of the logo would help (that seems to be the driving factor in how large the infobox is), but there's already a lot of wasted whitespace in the logo. If the excess whitespace were trimmed out of the logo, the width could be increased in the infobox and it ought to look better. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 06:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Second image?
Would it be a good idea to add }}{{
#if: {{{image2|}}} {{{image<includeonly>|</includeonly>}}} |
<tr><td colspan="3" style="text-align: center; background-color: #FFFFFF;">[[Image:{{{image2}}}|{{#if:{{{image2-width|}}}|{{{image2-width}}}|200}}px]]</td></tr> below the current logo. That way both the logo and a picture of the aircraft livery can be seen in the infobox somewhat similar to the airport articles, like Montréal-Pierre Elliott Trudeau International Airport. To test it set Template:X5 to that version and add
| image2 =
| image2-width = 200 below the logo. Enter CambridgeBayWeather,waits for audience applause,not a sausage16:43, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Frequent Flyer Program
I think the text "Frequent Flyer Program" should be changed to something more 'airline-general' such as "Loyalty Program". Frequent Flyer is Qantas-specific as far as I know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.171.164.104 (talk) 04:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't see a pressing need to change it, as the term is widely recognized as generic. And it's definitely not Qantas specific: Delta's program was called "Delta Frequent Flyer" from it's creation in 1981 until it was renamed SkyMiles in 1995. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 05:25, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Ugly design
Anybody know why the design has been changed to a really ugly version - has this been discussed anywhere? Should it be reverted? MilborneOne (talk) 11:54, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
The actual style changes were rather incidental to the code cleanup which took place, and can be reverted without undoing the whole lot. The test cases page has a comparison between the two styles. As far as I'm concerned the old design was "uglier" (on short infoboxes all the borders and colour rather overwhelm the content) but more importantly was arbitrary; the current version follows the recommended defaults of the {{infobox}} design, which have been widely copied throughout the encyclopedia's infobox templates, especially those for the aircraft project. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk14:05, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Greetings, as an editor of many airline articles, I have some concerns about the infobox changes. While any code cleanup is good, and appreciated, the new appearance poses some questions:
The title {{{airline}}} is changed to a nearly colorless background, whereas before it had a blue one; in the examples given here it is shown with an picture afterwards. In most airline articles, a clear-background logo is used, not a picture. As a result of the change, the logo and name now appear to be in one space (e.g. Air France, British Airways, Japan Airlines). Perhaps the title could be positioned to appear above the box, such as in Template:infobox company? Alternatively, some background color could be re-added, or the logo moved above the title, as in the sample shown at Template:infobox#Examples.
The loss of boundary lines to different categories makes it more difficult to for the reader to distinguish the categories of information provided. Airline infoboxes often have multiple destination, lounge, city lists separated by <br/> and include multiple font sizes, boldface, bullet points, etc. While a clear infobox works quite well with single-line entries, airline articles usually have multiple entries (e.g. Air Canada, Continental Airlines, Emirates Airline). Boundary lines are a helpful visual aid; contrasting background colors could be used, but that would likely be too colorful. Perhaps some very light boundary lines?
A more minor issue, but related to the boundary lines question, namely the merging of the IATA, ICAO, and Callsign categories with less separation between the two. The 3-letter IATA/ICAO codes are given equal space to the Callsign code, which can be a longer word, thus taking up two lines (e.g. Air New Zealand) - depending on browser/font size. But the symmetrical look also has its merits; perhaps a lighter gray could be used?
It is the loss of both horizontal and vertical boundary lines that appears to be odd after years of editing airline articles. The loss of vertical lines and spacing in the iata/icao/callsign now appears odd as Synergy has commented (the old (right) testcase version is still not the same as the original template!). MilborneOne (talk) 19:43, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Acknowledging that any changes may take some getting used to, and the apparent need to harmonize infobox styles with others, the question still remains whether such changes make a discernible improvement. Perhaps a more modern look can be achieved, while maintaining the organization. SynergyStar (talk) 19:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
The change required to re-add the lines is the addition of a single word (the additional "bordered" CSS class). As for the relative widths of the IATA/ICAO/callsign cells, I've corrected that, and in a way which actually allows for more column flexibility than in the old code. As for the merits of a floating title rather than one embedded in the table, I'm actually strongly in favour of the floating title style, but I thought I'd take it (relatively) slowly here. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk22:47, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for correcting the cell relative width. A floating title (I assume that means above the infobox, like the earlier infobox:company example) sounds worth a try IMO. For the lines, it's good to know that the coding is quite simple; also perhaps other options could be considered, for instance in Template:infobox#Examples there are colored cells (more updated look?). The IATA/ICAO/callsign cells, could they be separated; instead of one single block, perhaps 3 cells side by side? SynergyStar (talk) 23:15, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
A floating title, code dividers have been added, of course should a better coding solution be available, improvements can be made. Regards, SynergyStar (talk) 22:56, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
{undent} I think the now divided IATA/ICAO/callsign section and floating title has returned the infobox to a more acceptable version. The loss of the internal boundary lines may actually be useful, as it will discourage listing too many items (hubs, focus cities and destinations especially). I also think this template should be fully protected to avoid this situation in the future, but not until a final compromised version is reached. - TrevorMacInniscontribs23:27, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Good to hear that the fixes have met with your approval. Hopefully this represents a retention of the order along with some modernisation in the style. Just to note, the divider lines I added are white in color, given that other choices seemed to not work quite as well; and there were some coding changes made to achieve the borders (IATA/etc cells rearranged slightly) and floating title. I also updated the test cases to reflect the comparison between the two actual versions. Since the new infobox format, the IATA/ICAO/callsign links have been bolded, possibly because of the cell class. As for protection, I'd note that the page has been semi-protected to date. Should wiki adopt future infobox style revisions, this box might need to be available to be upgraded as well. Regards, SynergyStar (talk) 18:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
with regard to 'key people' for airlines that no longer exist. what are the guides for who should be included? should it, like all other company infoboxes, include the senior execs at the time of bankruptcy? --emerson723:04, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I would suggest to list only the last CEO, all CEOs and/or the founder. The idea of mentioning two or three "important" key people from all over the history of the company seems unrealistic, because too subjective. Belgian man (talk) 12:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Caption to image
Currently there is no provision for a caption to the image. Presumably this also affects alt text for the image. Given the general guidelines on lead images in infoboxes etc, why not set the image size to a fixed size and provide for a caption and alt text? GraemeLeggett (talk) 13:37, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Not sure we need a caption when all that is normally in the image section is the airline logo, this also can cause problems with fixed sizes as some of the logos can be small gifs which look stupid if magnified to big. Can you have a default alt text that just says logo ? MilborneOne (talk) 16:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Caption might be useful in those pre-web cases where a logo is (for instance) displayed as part of an advertisement on a page. eg from an old copy of Flight but for most cases could be left blank. A default to logo for the alt text would be a little better than nothing at all. And fairly trivial to add to the template code ( "|alt=logo of airline" in the appropiate part). This is the guidance from WP:ALT "A helpful way to think about alt text is to imagine that the web page is a script for an audio recording, and that the page's alt text is the part of the recording that describes the image to someone who cannot see the image." GraemeLeggett (talk) 17:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
"purely decorative, that is, it has no function and is used only for visual formatting or decoration" is the text in the guidance on wikipedia but that text cites w3.org which actually says "if the image is used to create bullets in a list, a horizontal line, or other similar decoration, it is fine to have an empty alt attribute " and further down our guidance is a specific section which describes better what decorative images are (and I don't read it as including company logos in articles on the company) and says for decorative images we should add code so they are skipped. GraemeLeggett (talk) 16:03, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
What was the intention of including the "Bases" entry in the infobox? What was it meant to be used for? Maintenance bases? I've created documentation for the infobox and couldn't find any references to Bases in the discussion pages. Since I couldn't figure out what Bases was intended for, it is the only entry with no guidance. I've accessed about 20 articles for U.S. airlines and the Lufthansa page and none of them use the "Bases" entry. (If its not widely used and not pretty important, maybe Bases could be removed?) Thanks. Ch Th Jo (talk) 05:24, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Any reason to change it to Maintenance Bases, some of them could be Operating bases with no maintenance, suggest revert to bases it has been fine for many years like that. MilborneOne (talk) 20:57, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the replies and I have a concern. Listing "bases" in the -infobox- without understanding and clearly stating what kind of bases they are does not make sense to me. The infobox should be instantly clear to a reader and not open to misinterpretation. Having a vague header that could be maintenance bases or could be operating bases (or some third type, etc.) is not good editorial practice. The last place we want to be vague or indistinct is in an Infobox. If both maintenance bases and operating bases are important, then there should be two distinct fields. If "base" field isn't widely used, maybe it doesn't belong in the infobox. Could someone please list a few examples of articles that are using the "base" field in the Infobox? I'm sure they're out there, but I can't find any. (I added a couple to the Southwest article, so any others?) Ch Th Jo (talk) 01:26, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
I think the concern is that having it vaguely defined in the past may have lead to it's being used for different things. Going in now and changing the label to "Maintenance bases" would lead to articles that have used it for something else being incorrect. An audit of its use would seem to be appropriate before redefining it, though I'm not sure offhand how to do the search you suggest. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 01:48, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
I think Ch Th Jo's concern needs to be looked at, although I dont think we should have changed the name yet (but no point in reverting until we come up with an answer). I suspect in a lot of articles what we would consider the maintenance/operational base has been entered into the hub field (as it is widely used even when airlines dont operate a hub). If you can wait I will look at the usage in a sample of articles and report back. MilborneOne (talk) 13:18, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Template description word changed from "Maintenance Bases" to "Operations Bases" because research showed that the base field in the Infobox is populated in articles primarily about UK-based air carriers. The term seems to be appx. equivalent to "focus city" (Its not just the articles - Ryanair corporate material also uses the term "base"). The Ryanair article has 45 'bases' listed, easyjet also has a list of bases as long as my arm - clearly those aren't major maintenance bases. Even though most people probably don't read it, the template documentation will clearly explain that "bases" is a term used by certain airlines, primarily in the UK, similar to focus city etc.
Is Operations Bases acceptable? Although "Bases" is open to misinterpretation, I'm OK with that term considering that the template documentation will explain the intended use of the field.
Research results
Manually checking articles from carriers worldwide, majors, minors, dicounters, etc:
12 articles have information listed in the bases field. (AWW, EIN, EXS, EZE, EZY, GRE, JBU, MON, NKS, RYR, VIR, WZZ)
These 12 carriers are primarily U.K. based, so this may be British English vs. American English? Regardless, my previous skepticism about that field's importance is gone and I now think that the "bases" field is as necessary an entry as "hubs", "secondary hubs" or "focus cities" Ch Th Jo (talk) 22:16, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for that summary - prefer Operating rather than Operations but not a big deal wither way. I suspect that we may need to add at some point Maintenance Base as some airlines do have seperate Operating and Maintenance Bases (British Airways at Cardiff is a Maintenance Base only I believe). Although only slightly related I dont think we have an article on Airline bases so I might see if I can find a reliable source to see if it is worth producing something. MilborneOne (talk) 12:40, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Operations -> Operating change made to template. I'll watch for comments/feedback/objections but this issue seems settled to me. Thanks for the help. Ch Th Jo (talk) 18:27, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
(I believe that the correct action to request is to change those fields from "required" to "optional"?) For whatever reason those things were never assigned to that airline and therefore "None" is in fact correct. (In this case the airline became defunct before those signifiers were assigned and/or globally governed, right?) Having no information (or a blank) suggests that the information is out there somewhere but no one has taken the time to look it up and edit the article. In a case like this a positive entry of "None" makes it clear that those concepts do not apply. (Perhaps "N/A" or "Not Applicable" is a better entry?) I'd rather see positive acknowledgment that those aviation concepts/signifiers don't apply than see a blank that will leave readers wondering. Since most airline articles' infoboxes include that info, having a few articles that leave an unexplained blank is likely to confuse readers, especially those who are "novices" not yet familiar with many of the concepts in aviation, airlines, etc. Rather than changing the template code, I support leaving IATA, ICAO and Callsign as required fields but updating the template documentation with instructions to enter "None" (or N/A or Not applicable -whatever consensus suggests) when those fields do not apply. Ch Th Jo (talk) 23:11, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
The reason the codes were not assigned is because the airline was in (and out of) existence long before such codes were thought of. Mjroots (talk) 23:15, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Frequent flyer programme vs program
I know this is minor, but I suggest adding some way of selecting either correct spelling of programme or program, to better tailor the frequent_flyer parameter to all worldwide English speakers, not just those of North America. Maybe having parameters frequent_flyer_int and frequent_flyer_na respectively instead? Thanks, The ZUKBG(talk)14:44, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Edit request from , 21 November 2011
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
This template has a typo in it that can cause formatting issues:
|+ colspan=2 class="fn org" style="text-align: center; font-size: 125; font-weight:bold" | {{{airline}}}
It says:
font-size: 125;
This is clearly incorrect and should read 125%.
Robert Chin (talk) 07:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Most templates with the blue "documentation" box are set up so any editor can fix the documentation, using the "edit" link at the top of the blue box. Anomie⚔18:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Tweak request for "Website" parameter
bsd
Considering that many (most?) airline articles are for defunct airlines, it's obvious that sooner or later their website goes offline.
My idea:
Use the "ceased" value as a "switch", which when it's "on", would convert the value in the "website" parameter to the following:
Care should be taken with the following usage scenarios:
The "website" value has already a link to archive.org
The link has a title (e.g.- [http://WEBSITE.com Website.com])
Address headers "http", "www", etc., is taken care of by archive .org, so one problem less
This proposal definitely follows the engineers rule that 'If it ain't broken, fix it till it breaks', but IMHO, definitely makes sense, and may be worth it! --Ben Stone03:34, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Merge with Infobox Company
I'll second the proposal above. There are exactly zero airlines using this box that are not also companies of some sort, and we should be able to include the corporate information without resorting to using both templates in an unsightly fashion. Another option would be to finish including all the corporate fields here.
Particularly, the template needs the "Footnote" / "References" field at the bottom to avoid needless and unsightly repetition of cites and year data after every single field. — LlywelynII11:40, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Related, but minor: there should be an option and documentation about an ability to make "hubs" &c. singular where appropriate.
"Company slogan" should definitely just be "Slogan". Probably ought to go under the logo centered and without any other text whatever if we're going to bother to include them. (Generally not really notable, falls under advertizing, etc.) — LlywelynII12:10, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Merge this template with company template
Would it be possible to include all company template infos with the airline template? There are several airline articles having both templates on one page. Please see SpiceJet and Jet Airways... Thanks.--Malaikaran (talk) 18:36, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Airlines and companies are not always the same thing, only the Jet Airways one has both so perhaps it should be changed to be similar to the SpiceJet article which only has the airline infobox. MilborneOne (talk) 19:28, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Airplanes may not be the same thing. Airlines always are: if they're not a company on their own, they're someone's subsidiary or operating division. — LlywelynII12:21, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
upgrade to infobox
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
I have created a version in the sandbox which upgrades the base code to use {{infobox}}. I request that we upgrade the live version to use this code. this will reduce the amount of code, and allow other things to work (like lists in data entries without the <div>...</div> or <nowiki>...</nowiki>, see Air Southwest). thank you. Frietjes (talk) 13:45, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Ability to hide top portion (IATA, ICAO, and Callsign)
Any chance someone can add the ability (or even the default behavior) to hide the top bar of the template unless these variables are filled in the template? For some articles, specifically for defunct and/or foreign and/or old airlines, this information is inapplicable (ex. Deccan Airways Limited). Having the extra top bar is a waste of space at best and misleading/confusing at worst. My suggestion would be to be to hide it unless all three have a variable. That way, even if not all three are given, the editor has to put "none" or "N/A" in the variable. The alternative would be to default to show but have "None/NA" as the default shown unless something is put into the respective field. Cat-fivetc ---- 09:14, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I say suppress if all are empty but if any of the fields has data then show the header and the data. (It's not difficult template code. You add IF statements such that unless at least one has content, the whole thing is hidden.) Don't know why it has to run in columns, the more logical approach would be rows below the header. And if we are tweaking things, a couple of horizontal lines to break up the long run of data into sections wouldn't hurt. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:31, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
While we are talking about that section of the infobox, I reckon there's a double bold applied to the codes and callsign (there is both a wikitable ! and triple apostrophes in the code). Anyone else think it looks a bit heavy?GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:54, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Six minutes is a bit quick I think, I am not sure why you would need a caption for a logo which is why this infobox has never had one. So I would object to the change. MilborneOne (talk) 19:56, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
It should not have an image in the infobox it is not what we use the infobox for, I will raise it at project and see what other views are as this is not a highly visible talk page. MilborneOne (talk) 21:05, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Update, since the parameters have changed in the instructions to "image", instead of "logo" (which can still be used), I've added back the 'caption' parameter. It is optional, and will not show if not used. Funandtrvl (talk) 21:40, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
In common with the comments above, I think this infobox needs the potential to host all the information that might be found in Infobox country. For example, I came to the Aer Lingus page looking for their stock market codes (the field traded_as in the company infobox) but it's not present. There's no parent company here, Aer Lingus actually is the listed entity. I think all such fields should be optionally available here. Thanks! — Amakuru (talk) 17:27, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
I came here to request the same thing. Sometimes ownership of the airline is a company without an article (possibly because the company is not notable enough to have an article separate from the airline) and sometimes the company which owns the airline also owns other (but smaller) airlines. For this reason, I think the "traded as" code should contain the name of the corporation in small font on the first line with the stock code on the second. AHeneen (talk) 20:12, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I am not convinced that stock codes have any encyclopedic merit in airline articles, I had to look up what they were so hardly of note to the average reader. MilborneOne (talk) 22:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I've reset the edit request. When the airline article is for the publicly-traded company, it should have the parameter |traded_as= like Template:Infobox company has. This is a noteworthy aspect of any business that is publicly traded. See WP:TICKER and this RfC about ticker symbols in leads for reasons why the ticker symbol should be in the infobox. Airlines are no less a company than any other. Of course, as with businesses, this would only be used in cases where the airline and publicly-traded company are the same (ie. don't merit separate articles) and won't be used in cases where there are separate companies, eg. Delta Air Lines is not substantially different than the publicly-traded company Delta Air Lines, Incorporated (wouldn't consider a separate article) and thus would include NYSE: DAL. It would not be added to subsidiaries such as British Airways (part of publicly-traded International Airlines Group) or brand names like Delta Connection, just like business subsidiaries like GE Capital don't have a stock ticker only their publicly-traded parent (in this case, General Electric) does.The last two comments came after I mentioned this discussion at WikiProject Companies (in a way to encourage discussion here, not to canvas). Even without that support, there have been three supporters of this parameters with clear and reasonable arguments for its inclusion (plus another in an archived discussion) vs. one editor giving a fallacious argument. AHeneen (talk) 23:42, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
